Reading about the latest massive, horrific child sex abuse scandal involving the Catholic Church, I thought about Sinéad O’Connor, who was the canary in that coalmine, at least for people of a certain age. I wasn’t alone in thinking this:
When was the first time you heard that the Catholic Church was teeming with child abuse? If you're my age, it was Sinead O'Connor on SNL. She was almost universally treated like a crazy person who had said something bizarre and unforgivable. pic.twitter.com/5ZmlNBK8Ex
— Daniel Radosh (@danielradosh) August 16, 2018
He’s referring to O’Connor’s 1992 appearance on Saturday Night Live, when she adapted the lyrics of Bob Marley’s “War” to address child abuse and sang about the victory of good over evil. Then she ripped up a photo of Pope John Paul II, said “Fight the real enemy!” and threw the shredded photo at the camera. From the Wikipedia account of the incident:
Saturday Night Live had no foreknowledge of O’Connor’s plan; during the dress rehearsal, she held up a photo of a refugee child. NBC Vice-President of Late Night Rick Ludwin recalled that when he saw O’Connor’s action, he “literally jumped out of [his] chair.” SNL writer Paula Pell recalled personnel in the control booth discussing the cameras cutting away from the singer. The audience was completely silent, with no booing or applause; executive producer Lorne Michaels recalled that “the air went out the studio”. Michaels ordered that the applause sign not be used.
A nationwide audience saw O’Connor’s live performance, which the New York Daily News’s cover called a “Holy Terror”. NBC received more than 500 calls on Sunday and 400 more on Monday, with all but seven criticising O’Connor; the network received 4,400 calls in total. Contrary to rumour, NBC was not fined by the Federal Communications Commission for O’Connor’s act; the FCC has no regulatory power over such behaviour. NBC did not edit the performance out of the West coast tape-delayed broadcast that night, but reruns of the episode use footage from the dress rehearsal.
As part of SNL’s apology to the audience, during his opening monologue the following week, host Joe Pesci held up the photo, explaining that he had taped it back together—to huge applause. Pesci also said that if it had been his show, “I would have gave her such a smack.”
Go get your shine box, Joe.
When she was a child, O’Connor’s dysfunctional parents fobbed her off on a church-run workhouse for delinquent girls, where she was further abused and exploited. But it wasn’t all bad — a nun there gave O’Connor her first guitar.
Nearly two decades after the pope photo incident, O’Connor appeared on the Rachel Maddow Show in 2010 to talk about the child sex abuse scandal that was roiling the church in North America at the time:
She praised the U.S. media for digging into the church scandals on this continent. She also wrote an op-ed for The Post that year. An excerpt:
Almost 18 years ago, I tore up a picture of Pope John Paul II on an episode of “Saturday Night Live.” Many people did not understand the protest… I knew my action would cause trouble, but I wanted to force a conversation where there was a need for one; that is part of being an artist. All I regretted was that people assumed I didn’t believe in God. That’s not the case at all. I’m Catholic by birth and culture and would be the first at the church door if the Vatican offered sincere reconciliation.
In the Maddow interview, O’Connor’s faith that the American media would finally cause the Vatican to be held to account is almost heartbreaking. I’m not even sure which sex scandal occasioned her visit. There have been so many.
Charlie Pierce published a good piece about this today, calling it make or break time for Pope Francis. But Pope Francis allowed Cardinal Law, the notorious overseer of the pedophile protection racket in Boston who sought sanctuary in the Vatican, to live out his final days in splendor at, as Pierce puts it, “the Basilica of Our Lady of the Clean Getaway in Rome.”
The current Pope didn’t take Law in. But he let him stay. That’s a betrayal of faithful Catholics like O’Connor, people the church left haunted and broken, many of whom didn’t survive the abuse. And this afternoon, the Vatican released a mealy-mouthed statement that basically boils down to: “Sad! But before our time.” Translation: They aren’t going to do jackshit.
I have never been a member of the Catholic Church. But my husband’s family are. I found them refreshingly sane on religious matters, compared to the evangelical zealots I grew up among in rural Florida.
I remember the first time I saw a portrait of Pope Francis at a church (wedding, funeral, some occasion like that, or I wouldn’t have been there). Such a pleasant surprise after looking at Ratzinger’s dour, beady-eyed visage.
But maybe O’Connor was right all those years ago. Maybe they all must go and “return the church to the people who believe in God.”
schrodingers_cat
Sacred Games character Ganesh Gaitonde says God doesn’t give a fuck. I would add, most so called god’s men (they are almost always men) are ready to fuck you over in the name of God and religion.
Roger Moore
Matthew 18:6
It seems a bit extreme, but if Jesus endorsed it, I think it’s worth trying as an approach for those who claim to speak in his name.
Cermet
I too am appalled and shocked how the catholic church has hidden and covered up as well as silenced the thousands of victims world wide without regard to the horror these children endured. That this church especially attracts pedophiles is not surprising and has been well know for a very long time.
Not that protestant church’s aren’t any less guilty in hiding their abuse which is extensive but lucky for them, lower profile since they are more fragmented and attach a different type of abuser..
trollhattan
Back in ’94 Joni Mitchell wrote “The Magdalene Laundries” about Irish Catholic institutions for girls–“fallen women”–that were basically labor camps that operated across two centuries. An estimated 30,000 were sent there. Here’s my favorite performance, with The Chieftains
NotMax
Years and years and years before SNL was a glint in the peacock’s eye.
On the occasional half days when the Catholic kids were excused from the public grade school to attend catechism class, it was furtively referred to as “going to pat ‘n’ kiss him” class.
oatler.
Meanwhile the “intellectual conservatives” at Ricochet.com blame Vatican II, socialist popes, dirty hippies and the Rolling Stones. No Joke.
delk
1975 when I was 13.
trollhattan
Just found a YouTube of Aretha at Fillmore West in ’71–the full concert (more than made it to the album). Enjoy and celebrate!
Ian G.
You know, both my wife and I were raised Catholic, but she’s been faithful to the church her whole life, whereas I was probably an atheist from the moment my parents gave me a picture book about dinosaurs and the planets. We watched “Spotlight” together recently, and at the end, she was crying and I was yelling we swear words. She desperately wants the church to be a force for good, I have given up on it being anything but an international crime syndicate.
Yeah, Pope Frankie is an improvement over his predecessors. And Khrushchev was an improvement over Stalin. It was still the goddamn Soviet Union.
gene108
@Cermet:
It is not just the church. Seems like any powerful institution would rather protect the status quo than stop sexual abuse. Michigan State, USA Gymnastics, Ohio State, etc. are secular organizations recently in the news for covering up sexual abuse.
For whatever reason we are geared as a society to defend powerful institutions and authority figures, than believe victims of abuse. I am not sure the reason for this or the cure
Ian G.
@Cermet:
Yup, the Catholic Church is like Enron or Theranos in that it’s too big to ignore the scandal. A local Baptist Church won’t get the attention any more than a local CPA cheating on his taxes would.
And I shudder to think what goes on in more closed religious communities, like the Amish or Haredi Jewish sects.
low-tech cyclist
The Catholic Church should liquidate its assets and give the money to its victims.
Once it’s done that, those who realize you don’t need money to serve Christ can keep the Church going. Consider the lilies of the field.
chris
@delk: Me too. Thirteen year old me was sent to an RC boys boarding school in 1969. Went home at Christmas and flatly refused to go back. Not fun times.
ETA: Turned 14 while there and became an atheist.
HeleninEire
The Pope is coming here next week. The entire fucking city is gonna be shut down. Was talking to some colleagues this morning. The older women talked about the abuses. Look up the Magdelan Laundries if you haven’t heard.
Anyway 500,000 tickets have been given away for his visit. But here’s the thing. Ireland is the progressive place it is because of the abuses of the church. The church had it chance after the English rule. They fucked up so bad. In 1939 90% of Catholics went to church. Today it is less than 30%.
Irish Catholics are tired of this shit. And one more thing. Ireland was the first country to approve of Gay Marriage by a popular vote.
YAY us.
TenguPhule
The Catholic Church is the only international state that is also an organized religion. And almost all of its wealth comes from being a universal parasite and scam artist for centuries. They wield an unnatural influence over American politics, like Russia, only they do it in plain sight and somehow that’s okay because enough people say that it is.
gene108
@low-tech cyclist:
It would uplift the native populations of Central and South America, as well as Mexico.
montanareddog
I was a child at Catholic schools in the ’70s and we knew. There were a couple of priests that the school grapevine told you never to be caught alone with. One of them got sent to prison 20 years later. One of my school contemparies sued the Society of Jesus over the other one about 10 years ago (because the priest was now dead and could not be sued personally).
We knew but we had a bizarre “that’s the way things are” attitude. I mean, what else could you do except stay out of their way?
Boris, Rasputin's Evil Twin
Awful easy for the Catholic zealots to blame Vatican 2 for pedo-priests, but it’s been on for centuries.It’s said the vow of celibacy was worse than anything the devil could come up with to damage the church. That is correct.
We knew about “funny priests” long before Vatican 2. They’ve been playing “pass the trash” forever. I’ve always been in favor of the millstone-and-depths-of-the-sea idea. Either that, or string ’em up by the balls and cut them down without damaging the rope.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
Does anyone even make millstones anymore?
Robert Sneddon
@gene108:
Powerful organisations get to be powerful and stay powerful by surviving. Those that don’t survive aren’t around any more and like CEOs of big corporations it requires a level of sociopathy and indifference to rotten ethical, moral and even criminal actions by themselves and their subordinates for such an organisation to survive and prosper.
As for the Universal and Catholic Church anyone with a strong stomach reading up on what it did as an organisation throughout the Medieval period should have no illusions about the modern incarnation of the Church and its actions in respect of sexual and physical abuse, slavery etc. The Borgias were not an aberration.
TenguPhule
@gene108:
/Whistles innocently
dmsilev
@HeleninEire:
_Spotlight_ was mentioned upthread. but _The Magdalene Sisters_, about a few of the (many) victims of the Laundries, is also well worth watching.
chris
@montanareddog:
Yep.
montanareddog
@HeleninEire: Until what, 25 years ago, Ireland was Europe’s only theocracy. The turnaround to one of Europe’s most liberal countries has been astounding and, tbh, rather heartening.
pacem appellant
The Reformation tried to give the church back to the people, but it turns out that power corrupts. Oh, and there are no gods, either.
Cacti
I remember the O’Connor incident well.
Problem was, there was zero interest in finding out what was behind her message. People were just aghast that she (deservedly) attacked John Paul II, the smiley, nice guy Pope, who it turns out was sitting on top of a very dark and ugly secret for years.
TenguPhule
Afghan teenager loses Austrian asylum case for not acting gay enough
Warning, not the Onion.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
So I wonder if around 2010 Pesci felt like an idiot years later? And so what if O’Conner hadn’t have believed in God? The god of the OT is pretty fucked up and evil. Hardly deserving of worship at all.
HeleninEire
@montanareddog: Yes. I am so proud of my adopted country. Very proud and happy to be here. And they did because
of the church.
And I knew it 30 years ago when I first came here. These people are too friendly to put up with bullshit once they are set free.
TenguPhule
The extraordinary bias of the judge in the Manafort trial
Tell me again, is this normal in a federal judge overseeing a case in their court?
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire: How’s the Brexit border meltdown looking? Because May’s government can’t find its arse with both hands and a map.
MattF
I think pretty much everyone has concluded now that the Church is complicit in all these crimes, and so is guilty, period. Guilty, guilty, guilty. The good news is that Catholics generally understand very well what ‘guilty’ means.
TenguPhule
@MattF:
Nothing five hail marys and a donation to the church can’t solve.
Droppy
I may have been naive or stupid or just lucky, but it never occurred to me growing up Catholic that such a thing was happening or could happen (60s and 70s). The first time I read something about a priest abusing children (sometime in the 80s) I assumed that it was one sick exception. Then the stories started coming in and I went through all the stages – denial, grief, etc. I have been reluctant Catholic most of the time, but I am about done. They are worse than the venal politicians we have to live with. They are more evil, at a fundamental level. And on the theological side, the Church is supposed to be an institution guided by the Holy Spirit. The evidence for that is damn thin.
trollhattan
@TenguPhule:
“Steel-cut oatmeal” is killing the millstone bidnez, I tell ya.
trollhattan
@TenguPhule:
A Reagan appointee, I’m led to understand.
p.a.
My mother went to C-lic school grades 1-12, was a churchgoer till the end, but when public school asked me please not to return, she was flat-out: we’ll find a way to finance private school. No C-lic school no way. She never gave a reason.
NotMax
@montanareddog
Not theocracies per se but Roman Catholicism is still the official state religion in Monaco, Malta and Liechtenstein.
The Danish constitution still establishes the Church of Denmark as the state religion (Lutheran).
Mnemosyne
@Boris, Rasputin’s Evil Twin:
The one post-V2 thing I could see is that you might start getting a higher proportion of young priests who felt like they needed to pray some bad urges away.
Otherwise, yeah, this is not a new problem for the RCC, no matter how much the old standbys want to blame it on “liberalism.” It’s liberalism and our willingness to discuss these things openly that’s allowing these priests to be unmasked … which may be the root reason why “liberals” are being blamed.
TenguPhule
HHS official: Agency not able to ensure safety of unaccompanied migrant kids after they leave its care
The Crimes against Humanity shit show gets worse.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Let’s see, it was back in the ’70s went me an my sister were tossed from Parochial School because the monsignor had a thing for willowy blonde girls like my sister and the school staff wasn’t going there. Previous parish my family went to had a similar problem, again the monsignor and girls. Then again my dad was an alter boy, his only story was going on a retreat with the other alter boys and finding on one of the priests in the dioceses was a religious wackoloon. The nearest I got was the guy who did catechism would read to us from the National Enquirer.
On the other hand even though as an adult I am a god mocking Atheist most of the priests I’ve meet impress me as decent people, so, erm? Previously the scandals were the priest running off with the church sectary
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@NotMax:
Here I thought it was Danentics. Shows you what I know.
NotMax
@TenguPhule
Now that’s some soft soap right there.
SiubhanDuinne
@dmsilev:
I was just going to mention The Magdelene Sisters. Disturbing but excellent film, made all the better by the presence of the always-terrific Geraldine McEwen as a sadistic Mother Superior. Haven’t seen it in close to 15 years at a guess, but I’ve never forgotten it.
SiubhanDuinne
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Ha! Well played!
cain
But maybe O’Connor was right all those years ago. Maybe they all must go and “return the church to the people who believe in God.”
No thanks. Isn’t that what the whole ‘born again’ Christian thing was all about? People believe in all of wacky things when they are religious. It’s really important to balance faith with reality.
Geeno
@TenguPhule: and a sherpa guide
geg6
Didn’t see any of the priests from my childhood parish on the list, but there were a lot of redacted names, so who knows? But the priest who was there long after I dumped religion and who performed the ceremony for my younger sister’s wedding was on the list. Didn’t surprise me. We all thought he was creepy. Wuerl and Zubik are in deep shit and it couldn’t make me happier to see these fuckers getting theirs, finally,
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
As Kay keeps saying, it doesn’t matter what HHS wants or doesn’t want. As soon as they took those kids from their parents, they became legally responsible for them, and there’s a huge amount of caselaw backing that up. No amount of whining is going to change that.
montanareddog
@NotMax: State religions are not theocracies (as you say, to be fair). And it was hyperbolic of me to call Ireland a theocracy. But there is no doubt that the Church held enormous backroom power in Ireland. An Irish friend told me about the influence Archbishop McQuaid had over De Valera, for example
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
The whining is a tell that they fucked up bad somewhere. If our media was competent, they’d look for and find the story of what HHS is hiding.
SiubhanDuinne
I sometimes wonder whether the Church’s sex abuse scandals might have been brought to light sooner or taken a very different trajectory had Pope John Paul I not died so soon (and the 40 years later, I still think he was murdered. Probably.) No way of knowing, obviously, but it makes for an interesting alternative-history mind game.
Roger Moore
@TenguPhule:
Yes, they do.
NotMax
@montanareddog
There’s also anomalies such as the Alsace-Moselle region of France. When separation of church and state was affirmed by law in France, that region was under German jurisdiction, and the law was never extended to include Alsace-Moselle after it returned to French control. IIRC, in A-M there are four religions recognized as “official.”
Then there are the Nordic countries on the continent proper, which are several other balls of wax when it comes (or until very lately, came) to state religion. Finland is especially convoluted, with the Evangelical Lutheran church being permitted to levy taxes on its members, taxes which are collected and passed on by the state.
waspuppet
Speaking of which, has anyone ever explained what’s the deal with his resignation/retirement? Sticking with the animal metaphor of the post title, that seems to be the elephant in the room.
The Midnight Lurker
I was raised Catholic. I hate what these predators have done to the church, and I hate how the church responded. Maybe things are changing, I don’t know.
My priest was a decent man who did a good job of shepherding his flock. Later in life, after he retired, people would see him and yell vile things at him for the actions of others. I asked him if it bothered him, and he told me, “No. I feel pity for those people. They have pain that needs to be alleviated.” I had even more respect for him after that.
I pray a lot (especially these days). Seems like I cling to the old rituals now more than ever. I’m not a regular church attender, but Mrs. Lurker goes twice a week. I confessed a guilt about this to her, and she told me, “I’m the contemplative. You’re the active. I pray. I love it. You fight evil. And you love that!” Then she crossed herself. To be honest, I don’t know how much evil I’ve actually fought, much less beaten.
I perform the rituals because I always have, and it gives me comfort, but I don’t know what I ‘believe’ anymore. In my later years, I’m leaning more and more towards George Carlin’s ‘Big Electron’.
In completely unrelated news, I just read where the Traitor-n-chief’s post mid-term, total loser parade is going to cost 92 MILLION DOLLARS! HOLY SHIT, BATMAN!!!!
EBT
@TenguPhule: Surprisingly enough it’s stayed in print most of the time. I pulled one from a pack of M19 the other day.
NotMax
@TenguPhule
You’d have to ask the general about that.
General Mills, that is.
:)
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne:
I think you need to read the article. This isn’t about what happens to the kids while they’re still in government custody. This is about what happens to them after they’ve been released from custody into the care of an adult sponsor- usually a close relative who’s already living in the US. The Senators want HHS to continue to keep track of the kids after they’ve been released. HHS says most of the time they can’t track the kids, it’s because their parents are undocumented and are afraid to talk to anyone in the government for fear of being deported. HHS feels, with some justification, that they don’t want to be put in the business of long-term monitoring the kids.
Ladyraxterinok
@Cermet: Boz T, one of Billy Graham’s grandsons, worked for yrs in FL AG office dealing with child abuse cases. He now runs G.R.A.C.E., an organizatikn that churches, ministries, etc, can call in if they want to investigate their handling of abuse charges against the. Bob Jones U called them in but fired them just before they were to present their report. (Many believe the group was fired because it found out too much negative info.)
Boz said several yrs ago that the incidence of abuse in Evangelical organizations is much worse than what has been found in tne US Catholic Church.
Appalling info about abuse in Evangelical institutions can be found at the blog thewartburgwatch.com and at the blogs of Bob Felton and Bruce Gerencser. (Gerencser spent many yrs as a minister in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist denomination until he became an atheist. He has an ongiong list of Black Collar Criminals.)
Gex
@waspuppet: One theory I heard was the anti-LGBTQ position of the Church was hurting American donations. The Church gets ~60% of it’s take from the US. The switch to Francis is entirely about PR on that and other social justice fronts. The “nice Pope”. Doesn’t actually believe anything different than Benedict, but those who don’t watch closely can’t tell that. They fall for the “be nice to gays” interviews while still arguing that we are a danger to children and shouldn’t be allowed to adopt.
The Midnight Lurker
And just to be clear… I really hate what these predator priests did to their victims, innocent young people who trusted them. I pray for them frequently. May they find peace and happiness, if possible.
Roger Moore
@NotMax:
One of my German coworkers explained to me that the government (or at least in the Land where he lived) still collected tax for churches from anyone who was a registered member. So there’s a strong incentive for people who aren’t active in their church to officially end their membership. I wonder how much of this is related to falling rates of religiousity in Europe.
Robert Sneddon
@The Midnight Lurker: Sexual abuse of practitioners, both children and adults by Catholic church priests and higher-ups has been widely known about for over five hundred years, it’s not a new thing. It was just swept under the carpet because saying anything against the church meant you were going to Hell, all the people in the community would close ranks against you for fear that they might also be treated the same way, called out at Mass by the priest, shunned, unable to find work or a school that would take your children, access to shops etc.
There’s a reason the Church has survived for nearly two thousand years, a ruthless determination to continue into the future as a recognisable entity by all means possible. The current Pope’s life mission is to ensure the Church survives and despite a quaint and naive belief that he’s the sort of Pope who would “do something” about institutional sexual abuse (not just of children) you have to understand that he IS the instutition and he would never have risen through the ranks to become a Cardinal without that survival of the Church being his primary aim in everything he did.
Ladyraxterinok
@geg6: I read the blog catholics4change run by 2 women in Philadelphia. In the posts and comments I’ve read so many reports of people learning that the priest who married them or relatives or the priest who was at their children’s school was an abuser.
The shock and horror is unbelievable.
NotMax
Hoocudanode? (Answer: everyone)
I’d conservatively (ha!) add another 50% to that figure by the time the final costs (including road and related repairs post-event) are tallied. Also too, what funds are being raided for the money? There was nothing for this in the defense appropriations bills, AFAIK.
Quinerly
OT
I have a very uneasy feeling about this Manafort jury. Hit me about an hr ago. Similar to the feeling I had about 1 pm election day, 2016.
Sick to my stomach.
Schlemazel
@The Midnight Lurker:
Yeah, the peace of the grave, and soon.
The government needs to bring RICO actions against the church. They have behaved like organized crime and not insolated incidents, one country or just since Vat 2
debbie
That “mealy-mouthed statement” is really ticking me off. Unless the pope renounces it soon, he’s moved into the same venal category as Aung San Suu Kyi. How far from grace the graced seem to be falling!
Aleta
“We have neither the authorities nor the appropriations to exercise that degree of oversight after minors exit (government) care,” White told the senators.
Then for a start, make them explain why they didn’t intervene while the kids were in government care.
Oh, they don’t have the appropriations? Meaning money they would give to contractors without oversight, who’d subcontract to low bidders who pay min wage, no benefits, no whistleblowing?
The end game he’s arguing for is to reduce or eliminate HHS authority until it’s a middleman for grift w/ no responsibility if things go wrong.
debbie
If you missed Colbert’s monologue last night, he was on fire in regard to Trump’s “alleged” racism. Start at 1:40 on this 2-minute clip. You won’t regret it!
Dorothy A. Winsor
The Hill is reporting a bomb threat at the Boston Globe after the editorial rebuking Trump for calling the press the enemy of the people.
Cacti
@Quinerly:
Similar feeling here. Even though the evidence for tax fraud is overwhelming.
Wapiti
@Quinerly: I’m not quite to that state yet. It’s a big case, with lots of charges to consider. From my jury experience a couple of years back, I’d expect them to take the job seriously and they might need a week to get through all of the charges.
zhena gogolia
@Cacti:
The jury is asking the judge to define reasonable doubt.
debbie
@Cacti:
No one escapes tax fraud.
The Midnight Lurker
@Quinerly: What is up with that? I got hit with the same feeling about an hour ago and I’m not even paying attention to that! It just popped into my head like a disturbance in the force.
JPL
@Quinerly: If it helps after watching MSM coverage, I wasn’t surprised that Hillary lost. In fact I turned off the TV at eight est. I’m not ready to throw in the towel this time.
The Midnight Lurker
@debbie:Cobert was hilarious! Trever Noah & Roy Wood, Jr. did a thing too about Trump’s racism that made me cry with laughter. Brilliant!
Mnemosyne
@Roger Moore:
I’m already out of WaPo articles for the month. ? If that’s the case, then it sounds like DHS is trying to foist their responsibility for keeping track of immigrants and refugees off on HHS. Either that, or some Republicans on the committee are trying to keep the “they’re all child traffickers!” lie alive.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
There were four questions asked.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/8/16/17705580/manafort-jury-questions-mueller-trump-russia
japa21
@zhena gogolia: To be clear, it may be a juror who is asking that. The only possibility for an acquittal is on one of the bank fraud charges. None of the others will have an acquittal. That doesn’t mean there won’t be a hung jury and a mistrial declared. It is quite possible that the vote will be 11-1 to find Manafort guilty on most of the charges.
The Midnight Lurker
Take heart, Juicers! Even if Manafort is acquitted, he still has many, many more legal hurdles ahead. Too bad too. I just don’t think orange is his color.
hueyplong
Best not to get all antsy about questions from the jury. Best for your peace of mind to focus on some of the many other things swirling around until they announce verdicts.
debbie
@Mnemosyne:
Delete your WaPo cookies and you can restart from zero.
Quinerly
@Cacti: @The Midnight Lurker: @Wapiti: Not usually an alarmist. I was on the beach with Poco and it hit me. Came in to catch some news. I hate to say this but I’m flashing on election day. Woke up feeling good about HRC, voted, and oddly was in Trader Joe’s early afternoon and a wave of uneasiness overwhelmed me so that I had to leave before finishing. Same strange feeling on the beach with Poco an hr plus ago. As we know, all it takes is one juror to hang the jury and we have a mistrial. I can’t bear thinking about this…..
japa21
@Baud: The two responses he gave were not what Manafort supporters would be looking for.
piratedan
@zhena gogolia: have a hard time dealing with a jury asking a judge for a definition and the judge basically fobbing that question off. I hear that Eliis asked the prosecution if they felt that they were being treated unfairly during the unfolding of the trail and the Prosecution told him, yes he’s been a dick during the trial, essentially being an ass during the process, making the trial less about what Paul Manafort did than making sure that his personal hoops had been cleared to his satisfaction.
Now, if the Feds had taken shortcuts, hadn’t followed the rules or simply made shit up, I’d want them fucking hammered, but we’ve had multiple witnesses sit up there and state that Manafort signed his name on those forms essentially lying to the IRS and other crimes of not reporting income and where its from and somehow there’s doubt involved, wonder where the doubt comes from, it comes from the judge being a prick apparently during the process calling into question how evidence is being submitted and is available to the jurors for evaluation.
Maybe this all comes out in the wash as actually putting that dishonest SOB behind bars, but after Mahleur, and a laundry list of white LEO’s walking from their crimes while on the job, I’m not sure of any fucking thing these days
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne:
I think there are legitimate worries about what happens to the kids after they’re released from custody- apparently some of them have been released to human traffickers- but they’re nothing like the problems while they’re in custody. But I definitely understand HHS saying they’re the wrong agency to keep track of the kids post-release; that really does sound like a job for ICE or CIS.
The Midnight Lurker
To hell with Manafort. My guess is that if the U.S. justice system doesn’t get him, Russian mobsters will. I’m good either way. Justice is served.
topclimber
@NotMax: I call bullsh**. You are denigrating real tragedies with nonesense. Nuns and lay people taught these classes and they were not where the problem arose. Are you a libertarian troll?
Baud
@japa21: The notion of Manafort having supporters is so nuts, I can’t process it.
The Midnight Lurker
@piratedan: With you on this. In another thread about a week ago we discussed our uneasiness with the judge. Some juicers said he had a rep as an asshole and not to worry. Others felt the same way I did, he’s got ‘external pressures’.
tobie
@Quinerly: Nov 8, 2016 has scarred us all. Try to see things through Poco’s eyes right now. Panic never did anyone any good. Imagining a dog’s world is probably the best thing to do for frayed nerves.
hueyplong
@The Midnight Lurker: Ha ha, now that’s the spirit in which to wait for the Manafprt verdicts.
wjs
It’s as if the Catholic Church has whitewashed completely the shocking scandal that hit in the early 1990s when the Diocese of Winona, MN was credibly accused of covering up for priests that were sexually abusing children.
japa21
@Baud: Well, let’s say Trump supporters that want to see Manafort go free so they can go after Mueller harder.
The Midnight Lurker
@tobie: Hmmm? Seeing the world through a dog’s eyes helps, huh? Does it still work if Trump is the mailman?
Dan B
@Boris, Rasputin’s Evil Twin: I’ve known (and dated) a number of ex priests. Before the 70s being celibate seemed like a way to “follow god’s teachings” and avoid sin. It also was a way to avoid being forced into a heterosexual marriage. The same was true for women – become a nun and avoid the alternative, sex without love. This was a remedy for a horrible situation. The fix was only a degree less horrible.
Most of the guys I knew that went into the priesthood were damaged but the ones who stayed were lost to self loathing and mental illness. This doesn’t excuse their actions but is a reminder of the consequences of a dehumanizing society. We “fish” need to be aware of the water we swim in.
One ex Jesuit I dated did wonderful things for GIs during the Vietnam war. He could not connect emotionally except superficially. We were a good match except for that. I saw him 15 years after I moved away at a bar in the Castro, drunk at 5 PM. He told me to stay away from him “Because I’m a drunk.” Funny how some memories are indelible.
tobie
@The Midnight Lurker: Well, that wouldn’t be the Zen moment I was imagining but oh how satisfying. Dog tackles the Orange Blob.
NotMax
@topclimber
You’re perfectly free to call whatever you care to. Doesn’t change what I heard whispered at that time and locale.
Elizabelle
I haven’t read the thread, but I think:
(1) Francis is a genuinely good man, and it’s a pleasant surprise to have him as Pope, but he’s limited in what he can do (even if he’s not pushing forward against all issues) because
(2) the Catholic Church is a thoroughly fetid institution, and I say that as a lapsed Roman Catholic who went to years of Catholic grade school (uniforms, nuns, lives of the saints, catechism).
(3) Celibacy is a large part of the problem, as is not allowing women to be priests. (a) you’re selecting for freaks of a kind, whether you mean to or not and (b) the great sins of the Magdalene nuns aside, women generally provide a moderating and protective presence. They are totally outside the Church hierarchy. In fact, we’ve seen nuns get kicked out of their home to make way for a bishop.
I would not mind seeing The Church get sued down to its last million. Yes, it does good works as well, and there are people of genuine faith and goodness who believe in it, and some of them may be priests.
But it’s become corrupted. There’s cultural Catholicism — with the Mass rituals, and the smell of the Churches and the art and architecture, and the funeral customs. But the institution is a horror show that believes itself to be outside the law.
It’s literally built by men. In skirts. Who spout bizarre stories. Enough already.
Dan B
@TenguPhule: And the Afghan authorities will believe this young guy. I hope his life can be saved. Every one of these stories feels personal. It reminds me of escaping arrest and death as a young gay activist. I tamped down my fears at the time but they resurface decades later.
SiubhanDuinne
The words “parish” and “pariah” are just one letter apart on the standard keyboard.
COINCIDENCE??
TenguPhule
@NotMax:
Actually half of the parade vehicles (the ones that are multiton armored vehicles) are explicitly BANNED by that John McCain bill.
Mr Stagger Lee
@NotMax: But at least we will get cool “Hell March” videos on YouTube
TenguPhule
@tobie:
Licking your unmentionables and rolling in goose poop?
NotMax
@Mr Stagger Lee
Not in the least looking forward to seeing Dolt 45 in jodhpurs, dancing a jig.
:)
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
its been corrupt pretty much from the inception. They’ve gotten a lighter shade of grey in the last 50 years or so, but don’t kid yourself that they were anything close to good as an institution. The nuns and priests at the lowest rungs may have done their best to present a good face of the Catholic church, but the higher ups know what they’ve done.
japa21
Wondering if Adam or Cheryl will comment on McRaven’s request.
TenguPhule
@NotMax:
I don’t enjoy seeing blubber wobble to the beat of Justin Timberlake.
TS (the original)
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Can the president* be charged with inciting violence, as can mere mortals?
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
Kilts!
Elizabelle
@Cacti: I suspect the conservatives in the Catholic Church rushed to canonize John Paul II (and threw in John XXIII to sweeten the pot) to try to inoculate him against what will eventually come out on his negligence in dealing with the child abuse scandals. JP2 was a nightmare.
And we still don’t know what made Ratzinger retire so immediately.
TS (the original)
@zhena gogolia:
And that is scary – from where comes any doubt?
The Midnight Lurker
@tobie: To each (dog) his own Zen, am I right?
Elizabelle
@TenguPhule: Sexually abusive priests was a new one to me, but I well remember noticing all the alcohol-dependent priests, from an early age.
Our family was friends with a Catholic monsignor who came and stayed with us a few times. My parents did not know that I was mixing him Rob Roys at 10 in the morning. He is dead many years now. I cannot imagine him performing or allowing sexual abuse of children, but he has got to have known of terrible stories within the parish and diocese.
Matt
@Dan B:
TBH, I think there’s too much emphasis placed on the individual priests – they’re certainly committed terrible crimes, but the true horror is the system around them convincing victims not to report (and even, IIRC, leaning on prosecutors) for literally decades.
As to a resolution, ideally the church should go out of business. Any other organization that got caught doing 1% of the obstruction of justice they have would do the same. At a minimum, the church shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near children without supervision, so GTFO of adoption and education.
NotMax
@TenguPhule
Made me remember that one of the evening pastimes of the high school kids on a popular old time radio program was “going to the YMCA to watch the fat men play handball.”
TenguPhule
its official. Kudlow has condemned us all to an early recession in 2019.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: Priest and pest aren’t that far apart either.
Or pray and prey. Yeesh.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle: You want the real horror stories, read up what they did in Ireland over the last 60 years. Stomach churning.
TenguPhule
@Matt:
Other organizations don’t have Diplomatic Immunity.
zhena gogolia
@japa21:
He wrote a very powerful piece of prose. Good man.
Quinerly
OT
Meanwhile…..
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/16/medicaid-changes-trump-work-drug-use-741890
TenguPhule
In 2018, we had to have an official resolution about this.
This timeline blows hard.
The Midnight Lurker
@Elizabelle: As a fellow Catholic and former altar boy… yes, yes, and yes!. Fiat voluntas tua.
Platonailedit
@debbie:
The ending was a zinger. Thanks.
We went from from totally class to totally crass, just like that.
Roger Moore
@Elizabelle:
Even in the good works, there are a lot of limitations. The Church is more than happy to use its good works to foist its religious beliefs on people who don’t share them. For example, they fought long and hard to be allowed to be allowed to accept government money for running adoption agencies while violating the law by refusing to grant adoptions to gay couples.
это курам на смех
After attending several days of the Bundy trial in Portland where I sat a few feet from the idiot jurors, I half expect a Manafort acquittal.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
And Dog help you if you have to use one of the Hospitals they own and you need a procedure they don’t approve of.
TenguPhule
@TS (the original):
it means they have at least one asshole on the jury.
Platonailedit
@TenguPhule:
That is a positive development. Some bipartisanship at last.
joel hanes
A superb movie about Roman Catholicism and its historic abuse of its adherents and its consistent choice to protect the organization rather than the parishoners is Philomena, starring Judy Dench.
Those of you who know the term Magdalene Laundries know the outline.
TenguPhule
Could Donald Trump possibly be stupid enough to make matters worse?
Why yes, yes he is.
Elizabelle
@Roger Moore: Yes. I am thinking of Catholic Charities. Adoptions, and very important in immigration assistance now.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TenguPhule: I’ve been on juries and that’s a common question asked of the Judge.
NotMax
@TenguPhule
I thought the judge’s reply to that was very straightforward and circumspect, especially including the reminder that the prosecution is under no requirement to prove its case beyond all doubt.
TenguPhule
@?BillinGlendaleCA: And was there not at least one asshole on those juries?
zhena gogolia
@TenguPhule:
That’s not what “fulsome” means!
TenguPhule
@NotMax: I don’t think it makes up for his actions during the trial, see me @30
lamh36
Say it with me…Fox News IS TRASH!!!
TenguPhule
@zhena gogolia: Don’t look at me, I’m just the messenger.
Elizabelle
@Cermet: Might have been answered upstream, but Protestant churches have a lot more local control. Catholics answer to Rome.
And who knows what goes on with God’s deer in the headlights, the evangelicals.
Elizabelle
@lamh36: Laughing.
I bet it’s the only laugh Patti LaBelle has had all day too. Because, really.
Another Scott
My best friend from high school married a Catholic girl and she wanted to get married in the church. So they did. I was the best man. A few days after they got back from their honeymoon he told me that the priest was coming just short of making a pass at him during some of their pre-wedding meetings.
:-/
Yeah, people who have no accepted outlets for their sexual feelings will find unacceptable ones. :-(
It’s not really the same, but Sinead’s experience reminds me of Hitchens’ polemic The Missionary Position. I wonder how many of his criticisms of her will eventually be validated.
Cheers,
Scott.
lamh36
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TenguPhule:
You know what we do to messengers around these parts?
Roger Moore
@Elizabelle:
I thought it was a mixture of the child abuse scandal, the Vatican Bank scandal, and a general feeling that the Vatican was spending all its time on inside baseball instead of looking after the interest of the body of the church.
I don’t know how much the last one led to him being forcibly retired, but I’m sure it helped Francis get elected. There’s the old saying about “after a fat pope, a thin pope”, and it definitely applies to the choice of Francis. Benedict was an insider’s insider, a guy who led the
inqusitionCongregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and he seemed to care a lot more about Vatican politics than what was going on in the rest of the world. Francis was brought in to counter that. He was an outsider who had never worked in the Vatican and appears to see his mission as refocusing the Church’s attention on looking after the needs of the flock.lamh36
lamh36
@Elizabelle: SMH…just ridiculous…FUQ’ers can’t get shit right…hell..
debbie
@Platonailedit:
The audience’s cheer was the loudest I’ve heard on the show, almost as loud as at a sporting event.
The Midnight Lurker
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Yeah! We do!
NotMax
@TenguPhule
Some federal judges are severe in treating the courtroom as their personal fiefdom, others less so.
My (limited) understanding is that none of this was significantly outside of this particular judge’s M.O..
IANAL and will gratefully leave anything further to those with experience at the bar.
debbie
@TenguPhule:
I wish one of them would sneak Trump’s name onto the list.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@zhena gogolia: Thank you for saying that! I am reduced to whimpering on the issue of “fulsome.”
Matt McIrvin
I’ve heard the rumors for as long as I can remember, long before O’Connor’s outburst. My mother was a school child psychologist and obviously interested in the welfare of children, and institutional child abuse was a thing she was always keenly aware of and furious about.
Frankensteinbeck
@TenguPhule:
Wow. I can’t imagine what will happen when he realizes – well, actually, yeah. Narcissists are fairly easy to predict. He’ll yell furiously at his staff that Brennan is doing something illegal the next time he sees Brennan criticize him on TV, someone will have to explain that taking away Brennan’s security clearance actually didn’t do much, that will probably be a big thing by itself because Trump won’t want to believe it, and then Trump will abandon the security clearance revenge system and move on to the next shiny object.
lamh36
Aretha Franklin & Hugh Jackman – Somewhere – 59th Tony Awards – 2005 https://youtu.be/csm3A80M9qA via @YouTube
chris
@zhena gogolia: But it makes the sentence more impactful!
Mike J
@Baud:
Why is this grifter different from other grifters?
Baud
@Mike J: You’re hearing about every tidbit.
Aleta
They may be checking on what the defense told them vs the actual law. To me the judge’s answers contradicted the defense claims and reinforced reason to find guilt. I’m not counting on anything though.
Roger Moore
@TenguPhule:
If we’re going to have a recession, can it pretty please show up before November?
Baud
@chris: Someone needs to be tasked with the job of editing.
NotMax
@TenguPhule
Also too, balance the so-called anti-prosecution bias against the same judge’s rapid denial of repeated defense motions for delay or dismissal.
Frankly, the prosecution spoke much more than did the defense, so the judge had more opportunity to comment on the prosecution.
japa21
@Frankensteinbeck: Decisive? As in writing it July 26 but not doing anything with it until August 15. Really strong and decisive.
Anotherlurker
@NotMax: I was in 8th grade, when a priest, Father Soave, was watching the boys shower.
He waited until I finshed showering and he followed me to my locker, cornered me and grabbed my… equipment. He told me that I needed to come to the rectory that night so that he could measure me for an atletic supporter.
When I didn’t show, the next 5 years were filled with abuse and denigration. He told me I was a loser. He told me that I would go to Hell because I ignored the guidance of my spiritual advisor.
Atheism came to me the next year. I knew it was all bullshit, but the conditioning was really effective. I felt guilty about ignoring a fucking rapist.
I cannot be introduced to a priest without experiencing severe fight or flight.
Yes, I’m still in therapy.
Religious education is child abuse, priming the child to accept rape.
TenguPhule
@debbie: I can’t believe Trump is recreating Nixon’s enemy list in the light of day, in full public view and this is somehow accepted by the media and a good chunk of Americans as the new normal.
Is this what its like to be on a bad acid trip? Where nothing seems to make sense anymore and the other side looks to me to be completely insane?
Mnemosyne
@Matt:
This. The perpetrators were a small percentage of priests, but they got moved around and things hushed up in such a way that they had decades over which to abuse kids, which is why there are hundreds of reported cases.
The cover-up allowed the offending priests to continue offending, because they were more important to the RCC than the actual parishioners. ?
Platonailedit
@zhena gogolia: @Dorothy A. Winsor: @chris:
We are all too old.
geg6
@Ladyraxterinok:
It’s very bad here in the Pittsburgh diocese. A hundred of the three hundred priests were from our diocese. And I’m just my part of it, here in Beaver County, it’s really resonating. Some of the worst stuff happened here, mainly at the local Catholic high school, Quigley Academy. Apparently there was a ring of priest there that swapped kids and were into leather, tying up kids and doing sadistic shit. And the former county DA told the bishop not to worry when they got reports back in the mid-60s of the abuse. He said they would close the cases and quit investigating them. They interviewed him on the local news last night and he was completely unrepentant. Old bastard should be shot.
chris
@Baud: An overarching need indeed.
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
The Markets can stay irrational longer then we can stay solvent.
Gin & Tonic
@Elizabelle: The various Byzantine churches (Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic) allow married men to become priests, to everyone’s benefit, and have a much lower incidence of abuse.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Good Salespeople are always more important then the marks. You can always find more marks.
Jay
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0brD50DIv5Q
More religious horror stories.
Documentary,
Mike J
@Baud: (mine was a seder joke)
Platonailedit
@chris: That’s a fulsome praise.
TenguPhule
@geg6:
Hanging from a house beam would be more photographic.
Baud
@Mike J: Passed over my head.
NotMax
OT.
Forecast for the weekend is intermittent showers and possibly some thunderstorms, PLUS an influx of volcanic haze.
Oh joy. Sinuses are making frowny faces.
Steeplejack
@zhena gogolia:
Yeah, I can’t even figure out what word the author was shooting for and missed.
chris
Who doesn’t love a parade? Maybe$92,000,000 is a little too much?
Baud
@chris: If they wait long enough, maybe it can be an impeachment parade.
Gin & Tonic
@Dorothy A. Winsor: How are you on “toothsome”?
Platonailedit
@Baud: And it would cost zilch since the paraders will be 100% enthusiastic volunteers.
Jeffro
@chris: Just saw that…WOW…humiliated much, Donnie? Somehow $90M+ for a parade takes all the air out of the “Mueller Witch Hunt* Wasting Money!” angle, don’t it?
*$90M could fund the probe for over four more years
TenguPhule
Breaking at Wapo. Fail Parade may be delayed.
ETA: FYWP
Steeplejack
@debbie:
I was surprised at the loud booing of Betsy DeVos as soon as her picture came up, before Colbert even told a joke.
NotMax
@zhena gogolia
The writer probably thought Johnny Cash was singing about Fulsome Prison.
:)
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Gin & Tonic: Assuming it’s not being used to refer to dental work, I’m fine with it.
TenguPhule
@Jeffro:
Presumes Donald Trump gives a shit about costs borne by other people.
Gin & Tonic
@NotMax: Go to your room.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Oh my.
NotMax
@TenguPhule
By 2019, the fleet of spaceships will be ready to zoom overhead.
Spaceforce One!
:)
chris
@Steeplejack: A list of synonyms from Merriam Webster. Nope.
abhorrent, abominable, appalling, awful, disgusting, distasteful, dreadful, evil, foul, gross, hideous, horrendous, horrible, horrid, loathsome, nasty, nauseating, nauseous, noisome, noxious, obnoxious, obscene, odious, offensive, rancid, repellent (also repellant), repugnant, repulsive, revolting, scandalous, shocking, sickening, ugly
WereBear
And what of the other states?
Cheryl Rofer
@TenguPhule: Looks like that’s a “will.”
Roger Moore
@geg6:
As I said above, they should tie a millstone around his neck and throw him into the depth of the ocean. Jesus himself said that was better than betraying children.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer: One atrocity averted. Thousands more to go.
chris
@Baud: I would leave the hermitage for that!
Elizabelle
@Anotherlurker: I’m so sorry. That’s so manipulative and awful. You did not deserve that, nor does anyone else.
All the best to you.
remima
@Roger Moore: It’s complex. As a gay teen in the late 80’s, I ran away to San Francisco and ended up in a shelter run by Catholic Charities and it literally saved my life. The staff was all gay and there was no religiosity involved at all. It really surprised me, still does.
Baud
@Cheryl Rofer: Aside from everything else, I’m glad the 100th anniversary of the end of WWI won’t be ruined by that monstrosity. Of course, they will find other ways of ruining it.
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
They ?? Don’t ?? Look ?? Anything ?? Alike ??
NotMax
@Cheryl Rofer
Those tariffs on made in China red, white and blue bunting are a killer.
:)
Platonailedit
Mnemosyne
@chris:
I’m not the only one who suspects that the Pentagon deliberately inflated the cost to kill the whole idea, right?
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Sure they do. They are both Black.
debbie
@Cheryl Rofer:
Great news! Now, who will he blame?
Steeplejack
@chris:
“. . . when, hopefully, there will be enough Democrats in Congress to stifle this shit.”
NotMax
@debbie
Suspend Mattis’ security clearance?
chris
@Mnemosyne: Hadn’t thought of that! I just thought, meh, it’s the US military, home of the trillion dollar F-35. But you might have something there.
debbie
@Steeplejack:
Yep! I must say, that show has been a real joy. I like falling asleep while chuckling.
Aleta
@geg6: ‘a ring of priests there that swapped kids’ happened in a place I lived in the midwest too, as priests were moved between three towns in two states. The priests also visited each other back and forth, and would also take several kids at a time on trips to another criminal’s parish where other priests were invited. Highly organized. What an extortion racket the church is: convincing parents and sons they were protecting the boys’ souls while attacking their bodies and destroying their minds.
GregB
No one in the military wants to march on the Trump Treason Trail.
One wonders how big a message was sent by Admiral McRaven?
Dan B
@Matt: Agree it’s the system. If the church didn’t exist there would be something else. But it’s like the ages of feudalism and monarchies that were followed by some democratic and egalitarian states. Is it possible to develop a model for people who want a religion?
Omnes Omnibus
@Dan B: Scientology?
debbie
@TenguPhule:
I remember bad acid only lasting eight hours, so no.
NotMax
@Dan B
There already exists one.
It’s called “life.”
chris
@Steeplejack: Not to mention Mr. Mueller with an armload of indictments and warrants.
lamh36
@Mnemosyne: Just ridiculous…and also they couldn’t find a more flattering picture of Aretha…smh
trash
Steeplejack
@chris:
Those “synonyms” seem a little out of whack to me. Fulsome has two general definitions:
1. Complimentary or flattering to an excessive degree.
2. Of large size of quantity; generous or abundant.
The definition that Merriam-Webster gives of “aesthetically, morally, or generally offensive” is not included in all dictionaries, and it seems a bit of a stretch and based mostly on literary quotations.
I’m too lazy to drag out my OED on this, but I think we all can agree that its use in the story above is right out.
lamh36
Immanentize
Two cents:. One of the most common requests by jurors are requests for further definition of “reasonable doubt.” It’s a weird concept and juorors often disagree about what it really means. That said, it is most often requested when there is a disagreement on the outcome — especially with one hold out one way or another.
So, I can imagine this happening — the first order of business is to choose a fore-person of the jury. Then, in a lot of juries, they go through the counts and take a straw vote to see where the group stands. There were 18(?) Charges, so that could take most of the day if there were a lot of disagreement. I predicted some NGs on the bank fraud charges just because the water is muddied on that issue by the judge. And it seems all the questions were about the fraud claim and the reporting charges, not on the tax counts.
Just observations so far.
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
In case you didn’t see it, in the memorial thread Anotherlurker has a really interesting story about filming Aretha Franklin for a private performance. I thought it was really beautiful. ?
TenguPhule
Trump administration is considering pulling back $3 billion in foreign aid
Cheryl Rofer
@debbie: His tweeting tonight is pretty incoherent, like this morning’s. I think he is not well.
?BillinGlendaleCA
I’ve been informed that it’s stinky at The Huntington.
Mr Stagger Lee
Not sad about the parade,but I do like watching the parades from other countries, China’s look very smart, North Korea looks cheap, India’s is very colorful and animated. But the Russians are the best, now they allow their troops to smile as they pass through the reviewing stand.
debbie
@Cheryl Rofer:
I don’t think a normal person could handle the amount of stress he’s created for himself. What must his BP be at this point?
Cheryl Rofer
Here’s another one: Lt. Gen. (ret) Mark Hertling.
Cheryl Rofer
@debbie: I was thinking today that we still don’t know anything about his health. Two druggy-sounding reports from two druggy-sounding doctors, neither of whom seems legit.
Steeplejack
@remima:
All large organizations, I think, (can) contain little “tidal pools” where like-minded and compatible individuals end up by chance or design and create good things.
I remember one company where I worked on an extended software consulting contract for almost a year. I ended up in a small group (five or six people) responsible for one specific project, and it was one of the best work experiences I ever had—made all the more surprising because the company’s overall “techie” culture was very toxic. But somehow we didn’t get much oversight or interference—sometimes it felt like we had been forgotten—and we cranked out some really good work in surprising harmony. Somehow our skills and personalities just meshed really well.
Sounds like your shelter was something like that.
Dan B
@remima: In the 70s the Seattle Archbishop Hunthausen was very progressive. He got pushed out by a Ratzinger minion. Still the majority of staff anf parishioners are pro choice and pro LGBTQ. It’s the system because th predatory priests were being sent to rural Alaska where they committed terrible atrocities. Great things contrasted with horrors.
Another Scott
@Mnemosyne: I posted this link in an earlier thread today:
As usual, someone tried to make Donnie happy by giving him a parade, ideally one much bigger than Macron’s. But they don’t know anything about how the government actually works, so they ended up trying to do things that were and are illegal.
Grr…
Cheers,
Scott.
chris
@Steeplejack: M-W goes down the rabbit hole.
lamh36
BISH…may have as many as 200 tapes!!!
Alright ya’ll…what if…all this time..Omarosa was a double agent…who’s mission was to take Trump down…FROM THE INSIDE!!!
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1030251634172014592
RedDirtGirl
Anyone out there in the twitterverse thinking of deactivating their account tomorrow as part of DeactiDay? Seems there is an organized effort to pressure twitter to ban Alex Jones.
Dan B
@Matt: Agree it’s the system. If the church didn’t exist there would be something else. But it’s like the ages of feudalism and monarchies that were followed by some democratic and egalitarian states. Is it possible to develop a model for people who want a religion? @Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus: Scientology!? I hadn’t thought of that.
You’re so bad it’s good.
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh36: Dayum!
Immanentize
@lamh36:
She has always been an agent for the land of Omarosa. But she has receipts.
Aleta
@RedDirtGirl: Yes. I’m in.
Platonailedit
Steeplejack
@debbie:
I have gotten addicted to the monotone female interpreter voice on the Kim Jong-un clips at the show opening. Haven’t had one of those in a while.
NotMax
@Another Scott
Compare and contrast.
“[The President] shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” (Article 2, section 3 of Constitution – historically interpreted as applying to all Acts of Congress signed by the president)
lamh36
@Immanentize: She complete trash to me…but 200 mutha fuqn’ tapes!!!
Roger Moore
@Dan B:
It may be possible for some people who are interested in religion- there are already churches like the Unitarian Universalists- but that’s not for everyone. There are a lot of people who turn to religion because they want certainty in an uncertain world. They’re basically authoritarian followers looking for an authoritarian leader to follow. If there’s a religion with a nice hierarchy headed by a #1 authority for them to follow, they’ll join. If they can’t find a church like that, they’ll find some other authoritarian organization to join to fill the same space in their lives.
The problem is that authoritarian organizations like that also attract predators looking for prey. You see them cropping up anywhere leaders are allowed to expect unquestioning obedience from their followers. That’s why the same problem of predators continuing for years or decades while the people around them cover for them also show up in sports, universities, medicine, and a host of other places.
tybee
@TenguPhule:
amen
Platonailedit
@lamh36:
A black woman bringing down the traitorous thug will be the mother of all karmas.
Dan B
@NotMax: Life, it’s what I do. We have friends who are very active in a local religion lite church. Seems like they don’t like “life”. I want to talk about global warming. They don’t want anything disturbing.
Should I start a church of thoughts and prayers for the globally warmed?
Steeplejack
@Another Scott:
Call me crazy, but I make that a 667% increase. A 600% increase would put it at $84 million.
Elizabelle
@Platonailedit: They need to stop Kavanaugh and not give Trump one single more USSC justice.
I think it can happen. The media is wired for Republicans. That doesn’t mean everything is going to come off on their timetable.
Further — the Democrats (and independents) coming out of the woodwork to vote this year. I wonder if that changes the calculus on some of the red state Democrats. They may have disillusioned and non-performing Democrats who change the picture. Might be more of a risk to vote for a Trump nominee than to stall one.
What’s going on with the NRA investigation? Where do we stand with Democrats getting full records of Kavanaugh actions? It’s a lifetime appointment. What’s the rush?
Immanentize
@lamh36:
Complete trash are the witnesses to the garbage dump.
debbie
@Platonailedit:
Mr. I’m-Not-A-Racist would never recover!
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack: That does make a difference.//
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
On that front, less then optimal. Senate Republicans are routing the papers requested through one of Bush’s lawyers who also happens to be Kavanaugh’s FORMER DEPUTY. The National Archives who normally provide the information say they won’t be able to finish until October.
So we got 320,000 pages of emails from Kavanaugh cooing to other former Bushies about cheese spreads while the other 3 million pages are AWOL.
Steeplejack
@lamh36:
Lisa’s comment is really good.
Platonailedit
Simile? Metaphor? Fulsome praise?
Gin & Tonic
@lamh36: I am somehow reminded of Richard Hatch in the first season of Survivor. By the time people realized what he was up to, it was too late. But she’s better at this game than he was, by far.
TenguPhule
@Immanentize:
All of which could be vastly improved by setting them on fire.
hueyplong
Kind of like the intel people doing the “I am Spartacus” thing with this “Take my clearance, too” line.
And, yes, Trump potentially being stroked out by an African American woman seems like karma commanding the stage.
NotMax
@RedDirtGirl
Eye opening, really, the outsize influence Twitter is bestowed (including at B-J), based on its relatively small number of users. From a year ago, but still in the ballpark (emphasis added).
A bit more perspective, from this year (emphasis added).
The Midnight Lurker
Are you guys talking about trying to stop Kavanaugh’s appointment? Be still my beating heart.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
Radio silence. This could be very good or very bad. Only Adam may know for sure and he’s not telling.
Wolvesvalley
@geg6:
Current DA has opened an investigation into him:
https://triblive.com/local/allegheny/13980393-74/beaver-county-da-investigates-predecessor-named-in-church-sex-abuse-report
And the lawyer who tried to dig up dirt on victim Juliann Bortz has been fired from his job as Allentown city solicitor:
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/allentown/mc-nws-allentown-grand-jury-thomas-traud-20180815-story.html
I hope the blockquote and the links work!
Dan B
@Roger Moore: Yep. There are already lots of democratic or semi-democratic religions so my question is probably not the right question to ask. Ther are people who want answers and can’t deal with uncertainty or disquieting questions. They seem like the people who freeze up or start screaming in a crisis. Not helpful.
And the predators like to jump into any crisis or create moments of doubt so they can provide the self serving answer.
TenguPhule
@The Midnight Lurker:
no, no, no. We want his heart to still, not yours.
Platonailedit
trumpturds.
TenguPhule
@Platonailedit: Metaphorgotten.
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, it’s not like we’re talking about real money.
On a serious note, when bad numbers show up “in print” they have a tendency to get perpetuated. It’s rare that you see the wrongness in such plain sight.
/ Copyeditor blues
Roger Moore
@Cheryl Rofer:
I suspect this is at least partly a result of Adm. McRaven’s editorial. Making a big public statement was meant to encourage other retired National Security people to do the same, and it seems to be working.
Ruckus
@cain:
A lot of people think that if you bring reality into the picture, religion flies right out of it.
NotMax
@The Midnight Lurker
Recent polling of the public shows his support is decidedly weak.
Among women, it hovers right around (but of course) 27%.
Steeplejack
@hueyplong:
In one of her interviews today, Omarosa even said: “This is the art of the deal!” Probably I imagined the “baby” at the end.
Repatriated
@?BillinGlendaleCA: The same thing they do to pizza delivery guys and pool boys there?
Omnes Omnibus
@Repatriated: Well played.
Ruckus
@Cheryl Rofer:
His health? His health is the greatest, the bestest, it’s ever been. Of course he’s in the throws of dementia so his memory of what his health was last week is rather suspect, and he probably thinks that his health must be fine, he can still tweet while on the porcelain throne.
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
YASSSS!
zhena gogolia
@Steeplejack:
I believe “fuller” or “more thorough” was what they were groping for.
Cheryl Rofer
@Roger Moore: It absolutely is a result of McRaven’s statement. It will be interesting to see how many others sign on.
Ruckus
@lamh36:
I’ve wondered if this is possible. It certainly seems plausible. A tad difficult to believe, given the actors involved, but certainly possible.
Steeplejack
@zhena gogolia:
Well, if I was editing on deadline at the night desk of the Daily Blab, I would probably go with: “But other aides would prefer a more balanced process or that he drop the matter altogether.”
Upon longer consideration, I could see the author going for “fuller,” as in “well rounded.”
Platonailedit
@Cheryl Rofer:
Here is one. She is a former undersecretary.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Always thought that scientology was for people who wanted an excuse.
Another lurker
@Mnemosyne: Thanks so much, Mem. This is the first and best complement I’ve gotten in many-a-year!
Omnes Omnibus
@Ruckus: Anyone who takes me seriously is taking a risk.
Cheryl Rofer
@Platonailedit: Thanks. Wendy Sherman led the Iran talks for the US.
J R in WV
@gene108:
Years ago wife and I visited NE Spain and SW France. We visited churches starting with a gothic church built in the 1300s, and working our way up to Notre Dame in Paris. The second cathedral we visited, in Spain, was one of three with the tomb of El Cid… don’t ask how that works.
The whole floor of the cathedral was covered with private altars, and nearly everything was either gold or silver, all stolen from Latin America, and mined by native American slaves. It made a huge impression on me. Of course the Royal Family got most of the stolen gold and sliver, and the military, but the Church got their share too. Along with the Inquisition. Not that I didn’t know about the corruption of the church(es) already, but seeing all that stolen gold and sliver drove it home.
Personally, I think their assets should be confiscated because they’re a RICO organization, the real Pedophile Conspiracy in America. Not PingPong Pizza, the Catholic Church, along with OSU, MSU, and PSU. Baylor too.
remima
@Steeplejack: “rigorous” was what popped to mind for me. No?
SiubhanDuinne
@lamh36:
Oh FFS. Really? REALLY??
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
They had to scramble when it was discovered the photo of Mammy from GWTW was missing. //
Steeplejack
@remima:
Perhaps more accurate, but not pointed to (even inaccurately) by fulsome.
J R in WV
@Roger Moore:
Boy Scouts.
Long time best friend has stories from Boy Scouts back in the ’60s… seems like an organization that attempts to be as strict as the military, without real oversight among the adult leaders of troops.
Tehanu
@Mnemosyne:
More power to them if they did.