In San Francisco, people take to the streets to protest the “Bush Regime’s” unlawful war (Indymedia Photo).
Loudly they denounce this unprovoked aggression. The status quo is always better than any bloodshed, particularly unilateral actions undertaken by 40 or so nations (Indymedia Photo).
Here is what they wanted to stop (Jerome Delay – AP):
It is almost too horrible to keep viewing:
My goodness, how awful. They are giving the evil imperialist invaders flowers. How much more of this can we take? Quick, dust off the little red book and head to the streets(AP Photo – Jon Mills ):
Clearly, these people would rather we had stayed home, or gone through the UN – but we should not have toppled the legitimate Hussein. Why, according to the BBC, just months ago Hussein got 100% of the vote. These pictures must be fabricated (Karim Sahib/Agence France-Presse).
How dare we impose our will on these people (Chang W. Lee – The New York Times)?
The difference between Baghdad and San Francisco?
Baghdad was liberated from 30 years of an oppressive regime, and now they hope and pray to live in blissful peace.
The residents of San Francisco were liberated from their senses 30 years ago, and continue to reside in blissful ignorance.
*** Update ***
American RealPolitik, Occam’s Toothbrush, and Donald Sensing (scroll down- he has posted a lot today) also have some great stuff.
NF
Meanwhile today’s coverage in the French media is described in the Times (London) today:
“The French media have not highlighted the cheering crowds nearly as much as the British and American media. They have led on Iraqis cursing the foreign forces coming in
Stephen Sherman
Outstanding, John.
I have linked to this in my Blog.
Thank you.
Rick Vaill
wonderful…wonderful…thanks!
Orlando Torres
Nice touch!
GoHogs77
Do you read IlliniBoard2? Nice work!
Michelle E. Ford
I think what we are doing in Iraqi is such an amazing duty. We are giving freedom to people who have been so oppressed for to long. Unfortunately, some people of the United States are not only ignorant but do not want to share the freedom we have always had. One day the world will look back at this mission and be proud you were apart of a country who liberated these people and gave them a new reason to live.
Andre
Herb Caen a deceased “journalist” for an advert supplement pretending to be a newspaper, actually named San Francisco “Baghdad by the Bay,” perhaps 30 years ago
Scott Schram
There are only about 200 anti-war protesters in the country. They just travel from city to city in VW buses festooned with flowers and peace signs.
David
Wonderful work. I have linked to this entry as well.
Kevin
Who cares what the French think. I wonder what would have been the French response if the U.S. had said in 1941 – we should not go to war and let diplomacy resolve the issue?
Who Are You Kidding?
We love your site and hopefully you will like ours as well. We will add your link to our We Recommend section.
Tim
Clever. You should work for CNN or FOX. You’ve got their tactic down of only showing people the “nicey nice” positive images and leaving out the ones that may wake people up to the realities of war. For those of you that have the stomach to view them, I’ve included a link at the bottom of the page to a site that better illustrate the aftermath of warfare.
To the contrary, bub: THIS little picture essay “tells it all”. THIS is what those terrible peace loving people wanted to stop.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
mojo
How about a photo comparison of two liberations?: Baghdad 2003 and Paris 1944
mojo
Hey, whaddaya know?
I get to tell Bobbie Fisk to fuck off in semi-person!
My day is made.
Fuck off, Bob. You wanker.
pril
well, tim, that seems rather hypocritical doesn’t it, where was fiskie-boy 20 years ago? Halabja ring a bell?
Matt M.
This is an outstanding account of the ignorance of the typical American anti-war protestor. Great job.
MommaBear
…..and continue to reside in blissful ignorance…..
Blissful ignorance would not be filled with such evil hatred. They hate themselves inside and won’t admit it; it gushes out in vitriolic and downright acidic activities.
Stephen
Tim:
THIS is what those terrible “peace” loving people wanted to PERPETUATE.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/897497.asp
“Half his teeth have been knocked out, his face is battered and the eyes sunken and haunted-looking. His chest is covered with 50 separate cuts from a knife, his back has even more marks, which he says are cigarette burns. Two of his fingers were broken and deliberately bent into a permanent, contorted position and there is a hole in the middle of his palm where his torturers stabbed him and twisted the blade. “
Tim
Before this happened, the new polls came out showing approval at 68%. Among Democrats!!!!!!!!
It is a good day to be an American
beatrix
And THIS, describing a prison in Basra where political prisoners were held, is what those peace loving people wanted to perpetuate: http://www.msnbc.com/news/897497.asp?0cv=CA01
Check out in particular the description of the escaped prisoner: “Half his teeth have been knocked out, his face is battered and the eyes sunken and haunted-looking. His chest is covered with 50 separate cuts from a knife, his back has even more marks, which he says are cigarette burns. Two of his fingers were broken and deliberately bent into a permanent, contorted position and there’s a hole in the middle of his palm where his torturers stabbed him and twisted the blade.” Don’t miss the part about the special cells where children were held. What answer would you give this man, if he asked you why, with all their vaunted compassion, peace activists care so little about the thousands like him? And don’t answer that freeing oppressed people wasn’t Busn’s intent. It wasn’t Bush’s intent to kill civilians, either, yet you insist that he must be held responsible for that inevitable consequence of his actions. Just so, the “peacemakers” would have been responsible for the continued torture of this man and others like him that your preferred course of inaction would have caused. Are you ready to comprehend that responsibility?
TomB
Hey Tim, has Fisk finally reported that the US has taken the airport? Or is he still being led around by the nose by Baghdad Bob (rip)?
Nobody has been more marginalized in the past few weeks than Robert Fisk and Peter Arnett.
Shiloh
Fiskie’s pictures are horrific and sad, but we must realize a good portion of these people were wounded by the Iraqi regime itself, which used civilians as shields for its soldiers. And where are the pictures of the children Saddam tortured and imprisoned? Many more civilians would have been killed by Saddam in the next few months than have died from US strikes in the last three weeks. The Iraqis seem to realize this; it’s a shame that Tim can’t.
CMN
Just from looking at Fisk’s site, one has no way of knowing whether any particular victim was hit (accidentally) by U.S. or (deliberately) by Iraqi forces. But let’s assume they are all direct casualties of U.S. force, as no doubt many people are. The problem is that Fisk’s site is the same sort of advocacy as those who hold up grisly pictures of aborted fetuses at protests. It makes sense only on the assumption that such carnage serves as a self-evident moral indictment. It does not. If you think it does, then just wait till we get a site visually documenting Saddam’s torture victims. Will the protesters feel morally culpable for wanting to prolong that reality? And will we judge the morality of the war according to which site has the most and most stomach-turning photos? Carnage per se has zero moral implication without context. The photos above do, because they show the intended and achieved end.
enloop
Since the so-called antiwar movement did nothing for more than 30 years about the wars and internal violence fostered by Saddam, it’s reasonable to more accurately characterize it as an anti-democratic and anti-American movement.
Eric
Great job! I saw it linked on Instapundit and then linked it on my site. Thanks a lot!
Mark Webster
Great post. It is a sad part of the reality of warfare that innocents die. Any rational person acknowledges that. What the tims and fisks don’t seem willing to face is the corollary that even in peace, innocents die. In the case of the Iraqi people, the risk of death without our intervention was much greater than it has been during this conflict. Any loss of life as result of military action is to be appropriately lamented and all reasonable means must be employed to minimize these unintended consequences. That said, fear of what may happen cannot erase the reality of the horrors that these people have faced for decades under Saddam
tom
you know that adage, a picture is worth a 1000 words. You can see what I’m getting at here.
Devon
Tim, yes- that is an awful site, and I have already seen a majority of those pictures ‘splattered’ across every anti-war site I’ve encountered. Where, praytell is Robert’s link to pictures of the thousands of people Saddam’s regime has mercilessly tortured, brutalized and killed?
WildMonk
It is a testament to Fisk’s profound moral failings that he would so try to capitalize on the horrible images he has presented. He is like a vulture endlessly circling the bodies of these victims lovingly glorying in their wounds. They represent the worst form of degraded self-promotion I think I’ve ever seen.
Why show the same victims from several different angles or resolutions? Is it because Fisk couldn’t find enough victims?
Many of these are of Iraqi soldiers and defenders of this brutal thug: I guess we’re supposed to think war is terrible because torturers bleed too?
Why show the lightly wounded or the crying? Are we to suppose that tyrants like Saddam do not deserve to be deposed because someone might cry?
The answer is that Fisk is not serious. He is a self-promoting thug in his own right. By refusing to accept anything less than perfection itself from America but any crime – no matter how brutal – in defense of Saddam, he is merely the mouthpiece of evil masquerading as good.
Nice Post John. I’ve linked to you from WildMonk as well.
Jeff Medcalf
OK, so almost person depicted is shown multiple times; no distinction is made between victims of actual coalition attacks and victims of Iraqi attacks (including pictures of people shot at by the Fedayeen while fleeing Basra, and apparent political prisoners and torture victims); obvious Iraqi soldiers and other EPWs (even uninjured) are accorded status as civilian victims; people just being searched are treated as victims. What a load of tripe Fisk serves up. Not that I expected any better of him.
Peacenik
Great so Emperor Bush won one whos next Iran? Seria? north Korea? does his reach cover the entire planet? shall his grasp be shamed? I will remind emperor Bush that Napolean won a few also. What will Bush’s Moscow be? what shall be his Waterloo?
Peter Creager
Life, Liberty and the persuit of HAPPYNESS. Thats all folks!!!!
Heather
Peacenik,
What shall be your Waterloo? Oh yeah, your posting. Your diatribe has no basis in reality and neither do you.
Phread
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill
Peter Creager
P.S. Seria is spelled Syria and no Bush is not going after Syria for Christ sakes , he just learned how to spell Baghdad. I love Bush more now than ever, a President with balls that he uses not slapping Monica in the face with.
CJ
Does anyone really think that those of us who support the troops are not cognizant of the fact that civilians die in wartime too? I’m in the military, and speaking collectively, we hate it when anyone at all has to die. In every single war this nation has participated in since its inception, there has been collateral damage and civilian casualties. What makes you think this war is any different? It pains us that the Dictator places military equipment within 20 feet of schoolhouses, thus ensuring collateral damage that Fisk can report on, but I place the moral responsibility for those deaths squarely on the shoulders of the Evil that placed those weapons there in the first place. Not to mention all of the Iraqis he dressed as American soldiers and ordered them to shoot other Iraqi soldiers so that he could film it and give it to Fisk.
Oh, and by the way, lest we forget, there have been American civilian casualties in this war as well…over 3,000 innocent American civilians died on September 11.
Don
Peacenik,
“Great so Emperor Bush won one whos next Iran? Seria? north Korea? ”
-Good question. You pick, they are all excellent candidates.
“does his reach cover the entire planet? ”
– Well, yes, actually.
“Shall his grasp be shamed?”
– Nah, we’re leaving shame to the “Not in our name” crowd. They’ve had so much more practice lately.
“I will remind emperor Bush that Napolean won a few also.”
– Yeah, but the funny thing is, Napoleon was never welcomed as a liberator, not once in 18 years. Bush has been- twice in 18 months.
“What will Bush’s Moscow be?”
– Well, not Moscow. Condi’s taking care of it.
“What shall be his Waterloo?”
– You tell us. Your crowd has been so remarkably accurate in its predictions lately.
StratIntel
Nice, Peacenik…very nice. First off, it’s “Syria”. Learn to spell the name of the place before you begin your fusillade of ignorance. What is the name of the leader of Syria? Do you know?
While you’re asking…
How ’bout that sweet guy in the PRK? Good ‘ol Kim Jong Il…he’s just misunderstood. You say systematic starvation, religious persecution, and genocide, I say “Worker’s Paradise,” right?
Anyone who compares a US President to Napoleon has lost any shred of credibility that they might have once possessed – right then and there. I suppose, in your world, we, the United States oversee a vast empire, stretching from the former domain of the Haupsbergs to the Land of the Rising Sun. That’s right…Germany and Japan are ours. We still occupy them, ruling the snivelling masses and draining them of their precious resources – not unlike the OOOOOOOOOOIL we’ll be taking off the hands of the saps who just this morning were celebrating in the streets. Suckers. All this sound about right? Well, never let it be said that you let reality get in the way of a solid aversion to the United States. Idealogical impotence rules!
Jason & Suanne
Imagine if the Nazi’s had the ability to post pictures of civilians killed with the wizz-bang of the internet, such as Fisk highlights. My guess is that people like Fisk and their ilk would still, to this day, be protesting WWII and apologizing for Hitler. Which brings up the curious issue: How would’ve the French felt about the Peaceniks?
pensive
overflowing hospitals are no big deal.. journalists shouldn’t linger on the details in Iraq — they will miss the big picture
all this suffering will help cleanse the Iraqi society of blind obedience to the devil.. even if 50% of the Iraqi population must die, the result will be a better world
it’s also been a perfect opportunity to test US weapons and strategy, and great training for the troops
Dave
Don’t you just love the good ol’ American hot air served up at this site.
Danny
Nice work, John! Very cool post.
Jenn
Great! After watching that statue fall and the Iraqi people celebrating today, your sight was a great finish!!
JackF
That quote by John Stuart Mill was awesome — God it says it all.
Fisk and his minions are no more showing the other side of war than some one waving the bloody stump of an amputated leg and claiming it is the other side of Cancer treatment.
If one wants to show the reality of the amputated leg in the proper context then an honest journalist must show a person in the final pain wracked stages of terminal cancer.
Fisk is a deeply deluded and intellectually dishonest man. He is a propagandist that could have proudly served under Lenin, Goebels, or Saddam.
StratIntel
“Democracy already flourishes in countries with very different cultures and historical experiences. It would be cultural condescension, or worse, to say that any people prefer dictatorship to democracy. Who would voluntarily choose not to have the right to vote, decide to purchase government propaganda handouts instead of independent newspapers, prefer government to worker-controlled unions, opt for land to be owned by the state instead of those who till it, want government repression of religious liberty, a single political party instead of a free choice, a rigid cultural orthodoxy instead of democratic tolerance and diversity?” – Ronald Reagan
Yup, Dave…we all’s jes sittin’ round lahk th’ bumpkins we oar. We ain’ got no s’fisticated thinkin’ like yew. ‘Murican hot air…that’s all they is here…
Ali Karim Bey
Sir,
You are good. No, you are great. Thank you for the wonderful time you put together.
Thanks goodness for our COW – coalition of the willing. No thanks to NYT, Germany, France, Russia, CNN, NPR, PBS, etc.
Ali Karim Bey
Ali Karim Bey
Sir,
You are good. No, you are great. Thank you for the wonderful time you put together.
Thanks goodness for our COW – coalition of willing. No thanks to NYT, Germany, France, Russia, CNN, NPR, PBS, etc.
Ali Karim Bey
John
Dear pensive
overflowing torture chambers are no big deal.. journalists shouldn’t linger on the details in Iraq — they’re not interested in the big picture
all this celebrating will help cleanse the Iraqi society of forced obedience to the tinpot dicktator:).. It’s too bad 200 hero’s had to die but the result will be a better world.
it’s also been a perfect opportunity for the left to parrot it’s clapped-out slogans and expose themselves for the assholes they really are.
Can’t knock you on the strategy and training though.
Stefan Sharkansky
Great job!
8bitjoystick.com
Spoken like true jack-booted black-shirted fascist.
MommaBear
Anyone running with an 8bitjoystick is a few bytes short in the CPU section. The embedded applications of that poor thing have serious flaws, preventing any logical operations from occuring.
EcoDude
Suppose we compile a photo essay showing the bodies of individuals tortured in North Korea or Cuba (to mention two nations that Internation A.N.S.W.E.R supports)…
Would we expect the “peace” movement to denounce the violence there? In all probability not, because those regimes exemplify the types of policies favored by their movement.
Skookum John
Skookum John gives the finger to everyone.
Original text deleted because it was over the top- John Cole, Site Owner
Jake
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
( Now remeber this next time you call a democrat like myself a communist )
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
John
What I found interesting was that a hospital in a place like Baghdad – ie not exactly a centre of medical excellence with gobs of supplies on hand – was reported as JUST NOW beginning to be ‘overwhelmed’ by the influx of civilian casualties. The net result: a report intended to try to put a dampener on victory spirits scored an own goal by indicating just how *few* injuries there actually were. It reminds me of how the attempts of the Soviets to depict the ‘decadence’ of the west by showing doctored episodes of Dallas ended up showing that in the US even the super-rich could be brought to US courts by wronged ordinary people who would then get justice as their due.
JJM
John
What I found interesting was that a hospital in a place like Baghdad – ie not exactly a centre of medical excellence with gobs of supplies on hand – was reported as JUST NOW beginning to be ‘overwhelmed’ by the influx of civilian casualties. The net result: a report intended to try to put a dampener on victory spirits scored an own goal by indicating just how *few* injuries there actually were. It reminds me of how the attempts of the Soviets to depict the ‘decadence’ of the west by showing doctored episodes of Dallas ended up showing that in the US even the super-rich could be brought to US courts by wronged ordinary people who would then get justice as their due.
JJM
Allen Biggs
We are back living under a Plantation form of govt. Masters and slaves. Those in the
Bush admin. do not believe in our form of govt. We must not by our silence let the Coybow in the White House gain support for being the international bully.
you_people_are_funny
I think that people protesting and voicing their opinions is essential for a democracy to function properly. But I guess the people on this site are so ignorant they would rather believe in the AP newswire and CNN photos of “liberation” then in dissent as true freedom.
Japanese
It sometimes make me wonder why Americans can do such stupid things.
http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2003/4/9/1_148857_1_6.jpg
I mean, we KNOW that the guy dodged bullets and risked his life to get there, but wasn’t this about IRAQI freedom? Or is it iraqi FREEDOM with a inane assumption of Freedom=USA?
Tony
Ah, so I see Jake. The left can call us fascists, while we need to restrain ourselves from such characterizations. Was he not excercising HIS right of free speech when he called you a communist, calling it as he saw it, no? By the way, facism is a whole lot closer to Communism than it is to ANY of the current ideals of US conservatives. Look up your international definitions of liberalism and conservatism before people begin throwing names around.
John Cole
Jake- I didn’t say you couldn’t protest. Go for it. Knock yourself out. Have a day at it!
I just said you are an abject moron and a complete fool. The 1st amendment covers that statement, too.
Pierre Cyr
How many of these celebrators are shiite, kurd or *ahem* sunni? Its an easy piece to do this… Almost any dictatorship will have people celebrating its overthrow. I hope that saddams wmds werent as bad as some say they were… the sooner we find out what he had and where it is Ill rest easier. Unless its genetically modified small pox (or any number of other equally lethal bioweapons) and its now in the hands of some terrorist… then I think we might end up rueing and not celebrate this day or this war at all. The war may not be over when we say or think it is… Thats some of the reasons those ‘awful peaceniks’ were protesting about. Hope you can think about this while your drinking your alki to the takeover of Baghdad… Dont mind the aftertaste…
Timothy
>>Almost any dictatorship will have people celebrating its overthrow
Well, duh. Perhaps that’s because “almost” any dictatorship is wrong, oppressive and immoral? And, perhaps, they should all be overthrown, one way (war) or (preferably) another (something peaceful). But if it must be war, it must.
John Cole
I never said the war is over- it will probably continue for a number of weeks. And the reconstruction wil take years, but hopefully we can have an Iraqi dominated government in place within six months.
None of that, Pierre, would have happened if the peace protestors had their way.
Andrea Harris
Great post, John…
As for you detractors… Jesus. H. Christ. How can you live with yourselves? Are you on heavy drugs? If I were as bitter and poisoned in my soul as you, I would be. You scum would no doubt have been happy to serve as torturers under someone like Saddam, as long as he spouted the politically correct bs that you think is so much more important than concrete action.
lance
Tim,
You should be ashamed of yourself. What you have shown in no way alters the point of the original post or the joy of people at being rid of the regime. Not only are all aware, whether they have to see the sickening images or not, that many have suffered, but it is a slap at the many more who Saddam’s forces killed during the conflict and the even vaster numbers murdered and tortured over the last twenty years. If only those who appeased this and other vicious regimes had instead not given the regime hope even this modest amount of suffering might not have been necessary. No war in this century has been fought by a force so mindful of avoiding the killing of civilians. The horror of their deaths in no way changes the remarkably low numbers of civilian casualties. This is no more than being willing to ignore vast evil so that you may feel superior. The logic of your post would argue against the defeat of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco who were the intellectual forefathers of Saddam. In the thirties the left fought (and were betrayed by the communists) in Spain against Franco. The civilian casualties were far worse, and Franco’s regime far more benign and far less a threat to its neighbors and us. I have much to criticize the left for there (such as its tolerance and naivet
daryl
brilliant..you take pictures off of news.yahoo.com and pass them off as the overall feeling for a country. im sure these people are going to be reeeeeal free when a united states general takes hold.
weapons of mass destruction? aw nobdy cares anymore..’operation iraq freedom’ ha, riiiiight.
P1000
My favorite moment : A home made poster with the words “Go Home Human Shields, You U.S. Wankers”
John Cole
Daryl- Why do I have to spend my time answering stupid questions posed by people like you. One last time. Of course photographs do not represent the entire mood of a nation. it is very difficult to represent anger, frustration, relief, despair, hope, anxiety, confusion, insecurity, mistrust, jubilance all in one photo or series of photos. I know this, you should probably come to terms with it as well. The point of the essay was to show the moral vacancy of the fringe left- and you are the fringe- who, if left to their own devices, would slip slowly into a deeper isolation, content only in that they personally would not be responsible for one civilian casualty- except for the 2 million more Iraqi civilians that Hussein might kill in the next ten years.
No one has forgotten about WMD, or the numerous terrorist cells operating in Iraq- but today was a chance for real joy, to see a long oppressed people slowly start to break out of their shell, and instead of being happy, you would rather sit with a barb up your ass and piss all over their parade. That’s all well and good, but don’t come here and try to pass off your foolishness assome sort of high-minded pacifism. Your message is clear- Iraqi people, you can pound salt.
And if you want some war porn- those hurt by errant bombs, those injured in the crossfire or those shot while being used as Human Shields- you have come to the wrong place. I know these people exist, I have seen the pictures. The difference between you and me is that I know who to blame, and their last names don’t rhyme with PUSH or FLAIR.
Now back to Indymedia or whatever self-loathing enclave you come from.
Fletcher Barker
John Kennedy quoted Isaiah in his inagural address saying”Undo the heavy burden and let the oppressed go free.
jesus christ
I’M SURE ALL THOSE DEAD IRAQUIS WOULD HAVE LOVED DEMOCRACY JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS WILL AS LONG AS THEIR LIFE-LONG DEEP WOUNDS…
how stupid you people must be to think that this war was meant to free all these people who are completely unsignificant to the eyes of your buck-driven and brain-deficient president..;
Wazzup
In 2004, we have to vote. Please make sure that your pin pushes all the way through.
m
Wow. I didn’t understand what this war was about until you spelled it out for me in pictures. I’m so grateful. The war makes sense now to a simpleton like me! Here’s to flowering freedom!
pissdownmyneckandcallitrain
“The loud little handful will shout for war. The pulpit will warily and cautiously protest at first… The great mass of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes, and will try to make out why there should be a war, and they will say earnestly and indignantly: “It is unjust and dishonorable and there is no need for war.”
Anonymous
Well, 1) just read Al-Jazeera (it’ in english too) to have a more balanced view about what people are thinking in the Middle East.
2) There are other dictatures which are heavily supported by the US – take Saudi Arabia. Well I guess you would have the same pictures there. So why, let’s say China shouldn’t “liberate” them now?
3) Now that everything is permitted without the UN approuval, well Russia could just liberate, say Belarus from Lukashenko.
4) But some maybe would also consider it the other way round – say China invading Taiwan…
Anyway the pandora box has been reopened…
Anonymous
Well, 1) just read Al-Jazeera (it’ in english too) to have a more balanced view about what people are thinking in the Middle East.
2) There are other dictatures which are heavily supported by the US – take Saudi Arabia. Well I guess you would have the same pictures there. So why, let’s say China shouldn’t “liberate” them now?
3) Now that everything is permitted without the UN approuval, well Russia could just liberate, say Belarus from Lukashenko.
4) But some maybe would also consider it the other way round – say China invading Taiwan…
Anyway the pandora box has been reopened…
mark powell
I think everyone knew that some of Iraq would be happy to see the troops “save the day” especially by the Shiites. Yet, web master, lets wait little to see what happens inside the country after a few months of occupation by US forces. Your argument is haste and simplistic.
Yes, the cliche (french word) “pictures are worth a thousand words” applies here as yesterday
Dean
Anonymous:
The gaping flaw w/ your argument is the presumption that the only thing preventing this from happening was some kind of respect for international law, or the UN, or somesuch.
But if we examine your four parts, well:
1) Reading al-Jazeera gives you a different, but not necessarily “more balanced” view of the situation. For example, they note how many people oppose the Coalition’s liberation. Fair enough, there are those who do so. But if you’re getting your news primarily from al-Jazeera, please note that it is no more objective/balanced, and arguably quite a bit less so. Frex, how many pictures of jubilation do they have at all?
Also, reading it in English is certainly not the same as reading it in Arabic, is it? So, it tells you what the editors want their ENGLISH-READING audience to know, but not necessarly what the Arab-reading folks think, much less are being told?
But good on ya for reading more than one source…..
2) Yes, there are other dictators. And if the Chinese would care to try and topple Saudi Arabia, that is certainly their choice. We may or may not oppose that, for reasons of national interest.
But, FYI, the Chinese finally ARE acting on North Korea. Which is a good thing, whether it gets UN sanction or not (it hasn’t, btw).
Can we expect anti-PRC demonstrations anytime soon?
3) What in the world makes you think that Russia hasn’t gone into Belarus b/c of the UN? One wonders whether you understand the meaning of the word “capabilities”? Given Russia’s problems w/ Chechnya, however, where Grozny, a city just 1/10 that of Baghdad, cost 5000 dead, one suspects that Russia lacks CAPABILITIES to take on Belarus.
Oh, and since Lukashenko would like to recreate a Union w/ Russia, wherein he’d be next in line for leadership, perhaps that has something to do w/ it as well?
You’re probably also thinking what is preventing India from taking on Pakistan. The answer is (and long has been) “nuclear weapons” and has NOTHING to do w/ the UN, either.
4) As for China invading Taiwan, do you really think that it’s the UN that is preventing this? As opposed, again, to the lack of CAPABILIITY on the part of the People’s Liberation Army to storm Taiwan across a hundred miles of straits? You might want to learn something about militaries, amphibious invasions, airborne invasions, and the PLA and the Taiwanese militaries before flaunting your comments (and apparent lack of said knowledge).
What, you think an invasion is simply something you do on a lark? You think ANY military could’ve done what the Coalition did in Iraq?? Puh-leeze!
cop
Dean, I don’t think “Anonymous” meant that al-Jazeera was itself more correct or “balanced” than Fox News. I think the point was that reading different news sources would, TOGETHER, give you a balanced view. If Fox News declares “All Arabs love their liberators, the Great USA” while al-Jazeera has some anti-US editorials, then you know the truth is somewhere in the middle..
Dean
Cop,
That may be so, but it depends on the extent to which al-Jazeera spins.
I mean, if I got my news from the Guardian and al-Jazeera, it may be two sources, but it’s hardly balanced.
Worse, listening to the BBC and reading “Der Stuermer” would hardly have given me a good picture of how the war was going.
al-Jazeera is certainly better than “Der Stuermer,” but it is hardly unbiased—and I’d daresay that it’s a sight more biased than Fox News.
Outlandish Josh
“Hot Air and Ill-Informed Banter”
Title says it all.
John Cole
You should change your name to “Clever Josh.” To think I never saw that coming. Troll.
USA
You hippies don’t see that we are doing the best thing that we could possibly do for Iraq, france did not want us to go in there because the Saddam Regime owes them money, just like France owes us. You protestors are a disgrace to the United States and should be rid of just like that damn Fonda women.
Joan Dixon
God Bless our troops
Joan Dixon
God Bless our troops
Joan Dixon
God Bless our troops
Uncle Sam
I think the protesters actually wanted to stop this sort of thing:
http://utah.indymedia.org/uploads/ali_in_hospital.jpg
Hell, it’s not like we have an organisation of united nations to arbitrate invasions on the grounds of humanity reasons so I guess it’s all cool then.
John
Americans are the best liberators IN THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD.
We would of liberated the Vietnamese too but all THOSE DAMN PEACE PROTESTORS got in the way.
AMERICA IS THE BEST BIT OF DIRT IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD AND EVERYONE SHOULD RECOGNISE OUR SUPERIORITY CAUSE WE WERE *BORN* ON THIS BIT OF DIRT AND THEY WERENT.
taliesin
Can you also show the famous picture where Stalin takes a baby in the arms?
Bob
If only your poor president would invest half of the defense budget in education, you all wouldn’t be so stupid to support him in acts that cause nothing but death and drama !!
If only you weren’t so brainwashed from watching CNN all day.
Sleep tight America!
btw : notice how there are only about a 100 people in the streets of Baghdad to welcome your troops ..
John Cole
If only smart foreigners like Bob truly understood how federalism works, and that it has not traditionally been the role of the Federal government to spend money on education. It is ok Bob, Kennedy and the Democrats mess that one up too.
If only Bob were smart enough to know that after a crtitical point there is absolutely no correlation between per capita spending on education and actual learning outcomes.
Oh well. It is easier top be ignorant and obnoxious, particularly when anonymous.
Ever notice how all the trolls are anonymous?
Spam
Okay, US liberated the iraqi’s from some evil dictator. A thing that should be done long time ago. BUT at what cost??? The US did it while ignoring the opinion of billions of ppl (i’m not talking about france or germany but all other countries who are against). The US invaded iraq ‘because it has WMD’s and it’s a major threat’. Well, seems no WMD’s are found (yet). I’m sorry, but if you guys don’t find any WMD’s you are in great trouble next time you try to invade some country saying ‘it has this or it’s a threat that’
US ARE IMPERIALIST PIGS SCARED OF COMMI’S AND OTHER PPS OPINIONS!!!
David Curry
Wow, many highly charged comments on this site – it’s quite an eye-opener. The opinion of some of you terrifies me though and shows a great lack of understanding of the problems at hand.
1) This conflict was part of a war on International Terrorism NOT liberalization. It extended from the fear that the US has over attacks on it’s people. This should not be forgotten – nor should it be forgotten that at present it seems that these fears were unjustified in terms of Iraqi fueled attacks i.e. NO WMD currently identified.
These people are “free” and the removal of a dictator such as Mr. Hussein is most definitely welcome, but liberation was only as a by-product of this conflict. Indeed, it will be interesting to see how well Iraq adapts to a new forced-democratic-US-lead government. There is no guarantee that this will improve matters in the long run. Much of Iraq is run by Mafia who operated outside of the Hussein regime – they may well fancy grabbing a slice of the pie. It will be then that the liberation will be tested. Still for now (and to quote Pink Floyd) Freedom has arrived.
2) There is not one person in this world, outside those who are in Iraq, receiving credible information. All media coverage of this conflict must be approached with great skepticism regardless of the source. Far too many opinions are formed without question and rational thought. Intelligence is shown through questioning the “truth”. Remember this. Please.
3) Final point: I am blown away with disbelief of the narrow-minded views towards the French. To constantly refer to WW2 with implications that they now “owe” the US to fight with them displays the most horrendous ignorance to a) politics and b) history.
a) The French President, monsieur Jacque Chiraque, was well within his political rights and indeed OBLIGATED to oppose the war based on French public opinion. Indeed he may have been preserving French interests and it is in no way cowardly or petty to stand up for that. After all, did this war not start because America were looking after it’s own interests?
In today’s post Sept 11th world, it takes great courage to stand up against the US and their continued quest to “free” the world. [Raises the question of what is freedom and can society operate in a truly free society? – but I digress]
b) The French assisted the US throughout the American Civil War – a fact so quickly forgotten in this day-and-age. Without French intervention you would, like myself (and incredibly proud of it), be British. The French are eternally grateful to all (and I don’t just mean the US) who help defeat the aggressors – this should NEVER be doubted. I’m serious – have some fucking respect, to use WW2 in a mud-flinging argument is despicable, we are supposed to have developed beyond the issues of those times. Clearly, in some eyes not.
Well, rant over – I would appreciate any comments you may or may not have on what I say. Thanks for your time to read it.
Remember we all have a brain – use it…
David Curry
PhD Student
Edinburgh
Tobias
Hmmm, great another dictator removed from the planet, along with thousands of innocent bystanders.
But lets face it removing Saddam wasn’t the main reason for the attack (after all why would the US governement try to remove a dictator it supported in the eighties?)
No, the real reason were the weapons of mass destruction, oh goody that so many where found and removed!!!! For a dictator Saddam was a kind man not to use his hunderds of weapong of mass destruction on coalition troops now was he…
*I conclude my sarcastic Rant, try top get the bigger picture and stop watching Fox or CNN you morons*
Dean
David,
Just a couple of reactions:
1. Most importantly, France did NOT intervene in the US Civil War. You are thinking of the American Revolution where, yes, French aid was vital.
a. France, along w/ Great Britain, was generally ill-disposed towards the government of Lincoln in the Civil War. It was, in fact, the will of the people that stayed the hand of the British, who in turn corraled the French (who were in Mexico).
b. Said popular sympathies, in turn, were b/c the American gov’t (under Lincoln) changed the rationale of the war from ending secession to the freeing of slaves—much akin to the transition of war aims here from WMD towards liberation.
2. American attitudes towards France are hardened no small amount by the whole business of simplisme. Yes, raising WWII is not exactly relevant. But, then, French sneers at us (and you, for that matter) are not likely to make us well-disposed towards them.
3. Leadership is NOT the art of asking the people where they are going. As Edmund Burke, noted, “A representative owes his constituency not only his industry but his judgement, and he betrays them, if he sacrifices his judgement to their opinion.” By your lights, one would suspect that Tony Blair should NOT have supported us; and Churchill, of course, was wrong in his Wilderness years.
Ironically, it was Napoleon (iirc), a Frenchman (Corsican, really), who said that it was a poor leader who said, “There go my people, I must see where they are going, so that I might lead them!”
Finally, for both you and Tobias: wars are fought for many reasons. To ascribe them to one cause and one cause alone is as fallacious as to believe that any individual has but one motivation.
John Cole
Not to mention that the reason Chirac was opposed to doing anything about Iraq had little to do with French public opinion- it was about French contracts…
michael heraghty
I think that those folks were actually protesting against this: http://heraghty.diaryland.com
David Curry
Dean,
1) Thankyou for the history lesson – I apologise for confusing my American history – however I’m sure you’ll forgive me being British, and being subjected to local history rather than American.
2) It is all well and good that the French may “sneer” at yourselves and indeed the Brits – but this has long been the way of the relationships and extends as much from ourselves as it does from them. Call it a clash of personalities. But no, my problem is not with polite disagreement but the near-national hatred of the French nation. Freedom Fries for fucksake. Freedom Fries. As i’m sure you’re well aware “French” Fries are actually Belgian (believe me do not mix the two around easily neither locals appreciate it) and it is simply the fact that they are described as French that the name has been altered. Are French antiques to be renamed Freedom antiques?
3) I said that Chirac was obligated to follow his nation’s overwhelming opinion. To quote Edmund Burke seems laughable as he spent the majority of his career “urging the government to suppress free opinions at home”. His motivation was to prevent freedom of speech at times of revolution. Times have changed – people are/have every opportunity to be educated. Surely freedom of speech and revolution is the very thing the American government are trying to promote.
4) To suggest that the action Mr Blair PM has take is in anyway relevant to the decisions of Sir Winston Churchill again shows a lack of understanding of a simple premise. The threat of the advancing Nazi power across Europe was a real danger to safety of Britain and her shores. We had no choice but to defend ourselves – this war is based on a fear of a “terrorist attack” NOT of the invasion of America.
Sure argue that the threat is real – it is, I grew up in fear of the IRA (funded at large by the US), as did the majority of the British Isles. This did not give us the excuse to wage a war upon nation in the name of freedom. Again your comparison to this conflict and the Second World War is a poor reflection upon public opinion.
Moving on:
John – do you doubt for one second that America would have entered this war if it meant it would lose valuable contracts? I’m serious, think about it.
Thankyou both for your comments though.
David Curry
PhD Student
Edinburgh
John Cole
David-
By lifting the sanctions, we would have freed up untold billions of barrles of oil. If it were all about money, we would have done that.
David Curry
John,
I think your forgetting that I never suggested this war was about oil. I was simply talking about valuable contracts – be they oil related or not.
David Curry
John Cole
Then that is a new one to add to the annals of bizarre conspiracy theories. If that were the case, we should start bombing Mexico city- have you seen the infrastructure there? We could get construction contracts for the next decade. They have lots of oil too.
You amuse me.
David Curry
Additional John,
If I ever thought for one second that developed nations such as America and Britain – who pride themselves upon being civilaised – start conflicts like this simply because of oil OR money OR anything else other than what they believe to be just – WMD or liberation – my soul and faith in humanity would be destroyed. And then what would there be?
David Curry
CJ
And what would the VALUE of those potential contracts be? Even developing the oil fields (not selling the oil) would only yield around 40 Billion dollars…you think we money-grubbing conservatives would spend upwards of $100 Billion on the war and potentially another $200 Billion (quoting my good buddy Tom Daschle) on the reconstruction for a measly $40 Billion in contracts? C’Mon, we may be war-mongering baby killers, but we have to know a little about economics, right? We’re not even THAT stupid…
Try a little logic on your own arguments some time…
CJ
And what would the VALUE of those potential contracts be? Even developing the oil fields (not selling the oil) would only yield around 40 Billion dollars…you think we money-grubbing conservatives would spend upwards of $100 Billion on the war and potentially another $200 Billion (quoting my good buddy Tom Daschle) on the reconstruction for a measly $40 Billion in contracts? C’Mon, we may be war-mongering baby killers, but we have to know a little about economics, right? We’re not even THAT stupid…
Try a little logic on your own arguments some time…
Dean
David,
As for the action of renaming French fries, I agree w/ you that it is silly. Sadly, it echoes of American actions in the past, e.g., the renaming of “sauerkraut” to “Liberty cabbage” prior to World War I.
But the silliness of this act (and I’ll note that, while it’s gotten a great deal of media coverage, VERY few places have actually done this—certainly not in Washington, Philadelphia, or New York, where I’ve been recently) should not overshadow what is perceived as French perfidy.
Our dislike of the French is rooted in the perception in their remarkable ability, not simply to pursue nat’l interest (which the Chinese and Russians do), but their ability to make it appear, on the one hand, that OUR doing so is oh-so-dirty, while their doing so is somehow sacrosanct and bless’t by God.
As for freedom of speech and Burke and France, suffice to say that no one questions the ability of Frenchmen to say what they wish—and to bear the consequences. However, when in France, DO pay att’n to the local laws, and neither burn French flags nor deride French politicians, as both acts are against FRENCH, but not American, law.
As for Churchill, keep in mind that, when he was in the Wilderness, of course, it was 1934-1936, Germany was a minor country, its military but a shadow (officially: 100,000 in the Reichswehr), and hardly worth protesting, much less often declaiming. The British sentiment was firmly in the hands of Baldwin and Chamberlain, and therefore, firmly of the opinion that Herr Hitler posed no threat at all to the stability of Germany—he was merely rectifying past crimes.
For ourselves, 9-11 made it clear that America was under threat, whether it was invaded or not. Whether you agree w/ that sentiment or not, that IS a prevailing mood, here.
As for whether the US would enter a war for fear of losing contracts, if the Euros believe in themselves, they are apparently intent, through boycott, of making the US pay. Regardless, yes, I believe we would have acted (under this President, under these circumstances), even if the dollar amounts were known in advance.
Economics, at the end of the day, extends only so far.
FWIW, I also believe that the US would intervene in the case of an attack on, frex, Taiwan or Japan, even if it were to cost us contracts w/ mainland China.
Something, btw, I’m not at all sure I’d say was true for France.
USA
To the dumb person that said note to us…noticte that only 100 people are out. That’s because we told them to stay inside when we come around, and if you weren’t watching all those people celebrating, which is in the thousands, your pretty damn stupid. All the other countries are just jealous of our superiority cuz your country wasn’t in power like they used to be. USA IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH AND THE WHOLE WORLD IS JEALOUS OF US FOR THAT. AND CUZ WE GOT HOTTER WOMEN THAN YOUR SALTY ASSES DO. So piss off you stupid foreign hippies.
Harvey Olson
I looked at the Fisk pictures. I was sickened, but I forced myself to look at every last one of them. Why? Because I’ve been in favor of this war for a long time. I know I made the right choice to support this war, and I felt immense joy at the images of the freed Iraqis as they toppled statues & danced & kissed our soldiers. But I also feel that if I’m going to take the credit for the victory, I have an obligation to face the cost. Those pictures are real. Those people suffered and died because of the action I supported. As a human being, I feel sick at the sight of what’s been lost. I can’t simply wish it away because it’s unpleasant. I can only balance it with the knowledge that the coalition actions were necessary to liberate the country and make the world safer for the survivors. I know that each innocent who died saved the lives of dozens more, and therefore I choose to celebrate the joy of the living millions, rather than to wallow unnecessarily in the suffering of the hundreds of casualties. My choice is life and its enjoyment, and I celebrate the fact that so many Iraqis are now free to make the same choice for themselves.
Harvey
Bob
Interesting point of view :
What if Al-Quaeda was trying to liberate the poor people of America who were being ruled by the dangerous dictator George W(ar) Bush
WHO DOES POSSES WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND IS NOT AFRAID TO USE THEM !!
If the possesion of weapons of mass destruction is such a crime than the USA are the most criminal country in the world!!!!
Dean
Harvey,
I absolutely agree w/ you. Yes, our actions had consequences, and that of the children (and other people) maimed is one of them. The difference between you and Fisk is that you recognize that there are people who have benefited, that those unfortunates are not the sum-total of consequences. As important, keep in mind that Fisk has never (and probably will never) either acknowledged, much less portrayed, the victims of Saddam, whose continued suffering would be a consequence of our not acting.
Nor will he admit he’s wrong when we find WMD, or any other violations of common decency or international law.
Finally, I wholeheartedly agree w/ the sentiment that we should celebrate life (much as many Iraqis are doing)—an optimism that too many seem to have utterly lost sight of.
Bob,
Sorry, you are incoherent.
First, proof, please, that George W. Bush has used WMD? We can show Hussein having done so.
Second, possession of WMD, in contravention of UNSC Resolutions formulated under Chapter VII, which requires response, is what is at issue. Iraq violates such resolutions, the US does not. IF you can get such resolutions passed, then we’ll talk.
In the meantime, you might want to use the fatty tissue between your ears for something other than keeping your skull from imploding.
(To John Cole: Sorry for that last line, but it’s just gotten too bizarre, I think.)
Bob
How else would you define this other than being a weapon of mass destruction??
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/affacts/blmoab.htm
Bob
I’m just wondering what possible good can come from this war :
Do you think that the action that was undertaken by the American and British troops will in anyway lower the threath of terrorist attacks ?
Dean,
People who support this war shouldn’t even use words such as life and optimism because they don’t understand the meaning!!
The only thing that violence leads to is more violence !!
Dean
Bob,
First, learn that terms have specific meanings, that have nothing to do w/ what your personal beliefs comprise. “Weapons of Mass Destruction” applies specifically to chemical weapons, biological weapons, and nuclear weapons.
MOAB is NOT a weapon of mass destruction—it does not fall into any of those categories. It is a conventional weapon, plain and simple.
You may also dislike the idea of three strikes comprising an out in baseball. Take it up w/ the dictionary writers, but your semantic little game is less than pointless.
On your point about good from this war. Let me give you one absolute, clear-cut example:
Until this war began, the People’s Republic of China consistently said that it had “no sway” over North Korea. Could do nothing, and would do nothing about its nuclear development program.
When the US commenced the war w/ Iraq, all of a sudden, the flow of oil from China to North Korea dried up. And China told the NKs to cool it on any ideas about testing missiles or nukes or somesuch.
So, between March 20th and today, the situation on the Korean peninsula has become more stable. And the timing makes it quite clear that the US war on Iraq has been a factor in Chinese calculations.
As for “the only thing that violence leads to is more violence,” do you really believe that? Are you seriously suggesting that the Imperial Japanese Army, which spent an enormous amount of time bayoneting innocent Chinese civilians, frex, was not somehow affected by violence, i.e., the violence applied by the US during World War II?
Do you really believe that, somehow, resistance to North Korea’s invasion of South Korea was futile or unnecessary, so that at least the southern half of the peninsula does not live under the repression of the North?
What solution, other than violence, existed for stopping an Adolf Hitler?
Was the Civil War, in your view, somehow unnecessary, and slavery and bondage for millions somehow preferable to that war?
Did you oppose war on Serbia on behalf of the Kosovars? Do you think that the absence of armed resistance was somehow beneficial in the case of Srebenica?
How many Tutsis fought violently when the Hutus came for them? Should the Tutsis not have fought back in Rwanda?
Bob
“When the US commenced the war w/ Iraq, all of a sudden, the flow of oil from China to North Korea dried up. And China told the NKs to cool it on any ideas about testing missiles or nukes or somesuch. ”
— Thank God !! I thought you wouldn’t be able to come up with a good reason for bombing Iraqi families !!
Renee
In honor of the many troops in the Gulf I will forward this on. HOOAH!!!
To my troops (You know who you are) Be Sweet, Stay Safe and for Goodness Sake use Common Sense.
John
PEACE is for PUSSIES. If you’re under the age of 35, you better be ready for me to jump on your neck in the street if you’re not in uniform. This nation is at war, and cowards will be HURT by loyal Americans.Get with the PROGRAM and JOIN UP, or get your teeth wrecked, or you can just move to CHINA, you damn cowardly commie faggots! WAR NOW!!!
“There are no innocents, everyone deserves to die”
Charles Manson
foony
it is fun