They better go back to the drawing board, because this dog doesn’t hunt:
THE US has floated plans to turn Guantanamo Bay into a death camp, with its own death row and execution chamber.
Prisoners would be tried, convicted and executed without leaving its boundaries, without a jury and without right of appeal, The Mail on Sunday newspaper reported yesterday.
The plans were revealed by Major-General Geoffrey Miller, who is in charge of 680 suspects from 43 countries, including two Australians.
The suspects have been held at Camp Delta on Cuba without charge for 18 months.
General Miller said building a death row was one plan. Another was to have a permanent jail, with possibly an execution chamber.
This is a pretty appalling idea.
JKC
Apalling arrogance. There are already a few armchair hawks (not you, John) having another wargasm over this idea. It never occurs to them that someday a Navy Seal or other Special Forces soldier might be hung without due process as an “enemy of the people (or Islam or whatever)” because the Bush League wanted to prove how butch they all are. Do Unto Others is just common sense here, folks.
As Memorial Day winds down, and we enjoy the luxury of sitting on our fannies spouting off on both sides of the isle, let’s remember the men and women who are out in the trenches fighting in our name.
Moe Lane
If you’re done freaking out, John, here’s the article
http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/05/24/wcamp24.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/05/24/ixnewstop.html
that I believe that the Courier Mail article was based off of. Even if not, it’s a bit of a useful corrective, as it:
a). Actually directly quotes Miller, rather than ‘summarize’ or ‘paraphrase’ him;
b). Is full of such inconvenient words as ‘might’, ‘could’ and ‘possible’ – and that’s just for whether there’s going to be long-term jail facilities.
c). Was actually written by someone with enough sex organs to sign his or her name to the article.
John, are you feeling under the weather, or something? – ‘cuz the title alone (“US Plans Death Camp”. Ye gods and little fishes) should have set off your BS alarm right from the start. I had the google searches going off while I was still reading the article. :)
Moe
JKC
Moe, you’re not getting it. I’m sure (after some prodding from the international human rights community) that the guests in Camp X-ray are fairly well treated. The problem is the habitual deep cloak of secrecy the Bush League is throwing over everything.
Put the shoe on the other foot, Moe. Do you want an American (civilian or military) rounded up someday by a foreign power as an “illegal combatant,” held in secret, and possibly executed without hope of appeal?
Look up the word “precedent” because, like it or not, that’s what we’re setting here.
st
From the purportedly “corrective” article:
“But the camp is clearly here to stay. American military commanders have drawn up plans for a permanent terrorists’ prison at the site, including a possible execution chamber.
Special military tribunals that could pass death sentences are expected to begin sitting this year, with defence lawyers asked to secure “secret-grade” security clearance.
Commanders in Guantanamo stressed that it is up to senior Bush administration officials in Washington to take final decisions on where the tribunals, or commissions, will be held, and to decide where convicted terrorists will be punished.
Maj Gen Geoffrey Miller heads the Joint Task Force (JTF) in charge of suspects from Afghanistan and across the globe. He said: “We have laid out a very extensive plan should long-term detention and imprisonment be given to JTF Guantanamo.”
Camp Delta opened last year on a rocky shoreline overlooking the Caribbean, and is still expanding. However, its steel mesh cages require refurbishment every few months, because of corrosion in the salty, humid air.
Building a Death Row at Guantanamo “is one of the plans”, said Gen Miller.
The special tribunals will involve no juries and there will be no appeals to higher courts, only reviews of verdicts by the defence secretary, and ultimately, the president.”
Still sounds pretty appalling to me, but what do I know, I’m just a liberal.
John
Oh..so secret! We’re what…reading it on the internet? And at least two news stories? Boy, is that ever hush hush.
I know you’re joking…aren’t you…when handwringing about how our boys are going to be treated sooo bad because of Guantanamo…or possible executions. Yeah, right. The exact opposite is true. When hostages were taken in Iran, the Americans were kept for years. The Soviets for a day. Why? The Soviets cut the balls off of Iranians as a payback and future warning. If you recall, the USSR captives were then immediately released.
Surely, you people are joking? Islamic militants who fly jets into buildings, strap bombs to their bodies…they’re going to think long and hard about American ‘cruelty’ at Guantanamo? Where have you jokers lived? Lifelong suburbanites?
JKC
Nice lack of imagination, John. Bet it never occured to you, bright boy, that it might not be Islamist terrorists or al-Qaeda next time. Suppose a band of Special Forces operatives gets caught in North Korea. Or Pakistan. They’re not in uniform, so the local government declares them “illegal combatants” and throws them into a literal or procedural secret dark hole. What then, John?
Why do you care so little for our military?
John Yuda
Why does John
Moe Lane
“Moe, you’re not getting it.”
Actually, I’m getting it fine. John@’s point about how ‘this habitual deep cloak of secrecy’ thing you brought up seems contraindicated by the, you know, OPENLY PRINTED ARTICLES on the subject is a good one. This isn’t some sort of samzidat network; we aren’t frantically posting our entries while the Thought Police are busting down the doors and our comrades buy us time with their lives. The Bush Administration isn’t secretive: it just doesn’t do reporters’ jobs for them. Given the state of journalism today, maybe it should -start-, but that’s another issue.
As for this:
“Do you want an American (civilian or military) rounded up someday by a foreign power as an “illegal combatant,” held in secret, and possibly executed without hope of appeal?”
And in a later post you mention Pakistan and NK as possible locales for this to happen. I presume that you mean nongovernment forces in Pakistan, as the government is still subject to American pressure.
Anyway… I’m sorry, but when did our soldiers /have/ that sort of protection when dealing with rogue states and terrorists? Those names aren’t just there for agitprop, you know: they won’t treat American captives nicely just because we’re such wonderful people, really. The only thing that might – repeat, might – keep a hypothetical American POW alive is the grim and certain knowledge that all outrages committed against him or her will be repaid a hundredfold.
That’ll keep down the incidential attacks, but not the truly fanatical, yes – but we’re coming up on that pesky problem again. To wit, the groups that we are most worried about are the ones with a recorded history of not giving a sh*t about what other people think.
So, the answer to your question is no, of course not – but if you think that the hypothetical situation you suggested is /really/ going to be made less likely if we stopped the military tribunal system that we set up for this problem, then in my opinion you are –
(Breathe, Moe. Breathe.)
– incorrect.
John Yuda
they won’t treat American captives nicely just because we’re such wonderful people
And how, exactly, do you know that? We’ve tried the bully thing. It’s not worked so well. So what the hell’s wrong with trying to be a good guy and treating *all* people well?
Oh, right. It gets in the way of making money.
Moe Lane
“And how, exactly, do you know that?”
That’s the one nice thing about fighting people who think that crashing jets full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people and videotaping the decapitation of American (and innocent, I might add) journalists are just dandy ideas: it clarifies things.
“So what the hell’s wrong with trying to be a good guy and treating *all* people well?”
Because the rule can and should get suspended when the knife is not only out, but penetrating the first layer of skin over your gut. The Golden Rule is not a suicide pact, either.
John Yuda
So you’ve failed to notice the vast number of innocent people the U.S. government has killed over the years? Oh, right. They weren’t really innocent. Something about brown skin.
John Yuda
Out of curiosity, Moe… are you a Christian?
Moe Lane
“So you’ve failed to notice the vast number of innocent people the U.S. government has killed over the years? Oh, right. They weren’t really innocent. Something about brown skin.”
And this, Moe, is why you never feed trolls. Some day you shall learn…
John Yuda
Not a troll in the least. I just think that foreign policy that equates roughly to a schoolyard bully is going to encourage resentment, hatred and terrorism aimed at the U.S.
Will there always be a few idealogues arguing agianst Western values? Of course. But a more positive U.S. presence overseas would make it a *lot* harder for them to recruit disaffected youth by the simple measure of reducing the number of disaffected youth.
Robin Roberts
The outrage over military tribunals trying terrorist detainees is quite amusing. Maybe if people here were a bit more informed about the various systems of justice in the world, they’d realize that things like our jury system are not found in many countries including our allies. So the phrase “without due process”, only demonstrates the ignorance of the poster. Learn about say the French or Italian system of justice. ( The Italian practice of special courts for trying mafioso make Guantanamo Bay look pretty good ). Or Japan’s practices. I’d rather be held in Guantanamo Bay than be held by Japan’s police, I assure you. There is a reason almost all crimes in Japan are solved by “confession”.
John Cole
I think Moe is right- I forgot my BS detectors yesterday.
KG
Sounds like pure, unadulterated BS to me. My Air Force Reserve Airlift Unit had C-141s assigned to haul ‘detainees’ from Afghanistan and Iraq to ‘Camp X-Ray’. Guantanamo Bay is a huge US Naval facility and the Commander of the Camp was and still is a US Marine Colonel. Not a British Major General.
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Excitabat fluctus in simpulo – He was stirring up billows in a ladle. (He was raising a tempest in a teapot.) (Cicero)