Via Atrios, news that is just infuriating:
JUST A MONTH before the next U.S. Army unit is due to deploy in Iraq to relieve the hard-pressed forces already there, the military is confessing to a potential showstopper. The deploying unit
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STRYKER A STRIKEOUT?
MSNBC reports that the new Stryker fighting vehicle is vulnerable to machine-gun fire because of a substitution by a German subcontractor: Unlike the massively thick…
M. Scott Eiland
“The problem arose when the German firm apparently changed the mix of ingredients in the tiles. (The firm could not be reached for comment.)”
Gee, I bet that our friends at IndyMedia (and more than a few posters at Kos and Atrios) will be hailing the owners of this plant as the new Oskar Schindler before the week is out.
Gary Utter
Friends of mine in a position to know (i.e. currently in service) tell me that the troops out on the sharp end loathe and fear the Stryker.
This may turn out to be good news in the long run.
Meanwhile…..
>>”What kind of operation just ‘changes’ the ingredients in a key component of their product without telling consumers? ”
One that is intent on deliberate sabotage, perhaps at the direction of thier puking leader.
JKC
M. Scott-
I doubt you’d find more than a small handful of people wishing harm to our soldiers, be they liberal or conservative.
The bigger story is that there’s something VERY wrong in the Pentagon bureaucracy for this to have happened.
Kimmitt
I’m uninclined to assume malice rather than incompetence/greed. Atrios specifically exempts Rumsfeld in his post, quoting MSNBC as saying that the Secretary wasn’t even told of the defect when it came to light in February. He is merely engaging in some Schadenfreude. And the comments section makes clear that while Rumsfeld pushed for quick deployment as part of his vision for the armed forces, the ideas behind the machine came from Shinseki during the Clinton Administration.
I’m just glad this got caught before our fighting men and women were killed as a result. Kudos to the folks at the Aberdeen Proving Ground for doing their jobs and saving American lives.
M. Scott Eiland
“M. Scott-
I doubt you’d find more than a small handful of people wishing harm to our soldiers, be they liberal or conservative.”
Which is why I was rather specific. Notice that I didn’t suggest that Howard Dean would entertain such sentiments, or even loons like Kucinich. If you will recall, IndyMedia had plenty of inhabitants who were cheering the sign “We Support Our Troops When They Shoot Their Officers.”–not much of a jump from there to cheering life-threatening sabotage. Ted Rall probably thinks the idea is nifty–maybe he’ll do a cartoon on the subject.
Robin Roberts
Of course, Atrios is a dishonest moron as usual, the Stryker has been in development for a long time. And come on, people. This is a new vehicle and new vehicles have these kind of glitches all the kind.
Light vehicles like the Stryker are difficult compromises because they can’t be built to be protected against all threats, so they are always on the sharp edge of a compromise between weight and protection.
Go back and look at the enormous controversy about the Bradley – but they’ve been a successful vehicle in actual conflict.
And will people stop reading Atrios’ bile, he’s discredited himself on a daily basis since his beginning.
Pauly
Cause, you know, Rumsfeld is intimately involved in the program management and testing of every single technology that the military develops under contract. Come to think of it, why are there even any other people in the DoD? Rumsfeld should be able to handle all of it! Stupid ass Atrios.
Dave Violence
army.mil/features/stryker/default.htm
Looks like a pretty formidable vehicle. named after a couple of braver-than-thou soldiers, too.
I don’t see how the “blast” of an incoming RPG could be “deflected” unless the charge is dudded before it hits anything. Maybe that was the armor does? But I don’t see how…
Imam Pshyco Muhammed
Actually the Stryker is a Clinton Administration boondoggle. The vehicle was the baby of Army Chief of Staff, Mr. Army of One, the Feelgood Black Beret guy, and all around Clinton Buttboy in the Pentagon now retired running for the US senate from Hawaii Gen Shinseki. Shinseki was, and still is, a bureaucratic nitwit. He should be made to sit in a Stryker while it takes live fire. My guess is that if he survived they would have to hose that thing out. This was developed and procured before Rumsfeld took over. Try Clinton, Cohen, and Shinseki for the truth.
Jason
RPGs (and most non-sabot anti-armor munitions) create a jet of super-heated gasses to burn through armor. The ceramic tiles deflect heat, just like the space shuttle. They’re also fairly thick. If they’re hit by small arms fire, most of the energy is absorbed by the breaking of the tiles. Kind of like shooting at 4in thick glass. It’ll crack the window, but by then, the bullet has no energy left. The damaged tiles have to replaced, but that’s pretty easy. It’s not as good as several inches of steel, but for it’s weight, it’s a good system. Just try not to get hit several times in the same tile.
It sounds like the tile manufacturers changed the formula and manufacturing process mid-stream. They probably did it to speed up production, reduce the number of rejects, or some other cost-cutting excuse. There’s nothing wrong with that, as long the product still performs to spec and full disclosure is made. It didn’t. And worse, the customer found out on a live fire range.
You can expect a lawsuit out of this. The german supplier failed to deliver what they promised. End of story. All this crap about Rumsfeld and the future of the Stryker program are just a sideshow. Just as many GI’s lives would be at risk if the army received a defective batch of Firestone tires…
Dean
Nor is this the first time such a thing has happened.
When the M-16 first left Eugene Stoner’s hands, the SEALs, Special Forces, etc., all wanted it. Great weapon, lot more ammo could be carried, decent hitting power, and it didn’t have to be cleaned.
IF, that is, you, used the right powder.
But the Army didn’t. It changed the powder used to fill the cartridges, and lo and behold!, the guns jammed in Vietnam. And the GIs weren’t issued cleaning kits because the weapon didn’t need any. IF you used the original powder.
Took awhile to get THAT SNAFU fixed. Fortunately, they got to this one before the troops were in them.
David Perron
Normally when there’s a design change at any level, that design change must be reviewed and approved at the contractor level AND at the project office level. Which means that either they changed it and didn’t tell anyone, they changed it and told GD and they withheld it from the government, or the change was approved at the project office level. It should be fairly easy to discover at what level the problem was introduced. This sort of design detail (change of formulation) should be unclassified and therefore available to the media and interested parties in the government.
I agree with Pauly that blaming Rumsfeld is asinine. It’s unlikely Rumsfeld even was aware of it. If so, well, you can blame each and every THAAD flight test failure on Aspin, Perry and Cohen. You can see how this can devolve into shitslinging.
Which is Atrios’ entire body of work. No surprise, then.
David Perron
Oh, and treating program issues as if they were classified is fairly common. Even a shitslinger ought to be able to figure that out.
GFW
Cause, you know, Rumsfeld is intimately involved in the program management and testing of every single technology that the military develops under contract.
Isn’t Rumsfeld responsible for what goes on in the Department of Defense? Much like the president is responsible for the words that come out of his mouth?
David Perron
Sure, he’s responsible. But there’s a minor difference between “responsible” and “to blame” that most people can’t seem to get their minds around.
So. Now that the problem is identified, do you think Rumsfeld will:
a) Deploy the Striker as is and damn the consequences,
b) Get the contractor to fix the problem, and penalize them if they did something wrong, or
c) Resign in disgrace, leaving his successor to clean up the mess.
I’m thinking b). That’s what responsibility is about.
GFW
Dave, I can’t wait to see it!
Imam Pshyco Muhammed
GFW,
What are you some kind of perv.
David Perron
Well, the question of how it happened has been answered. As well as the question of whether it’ll be resolved or not. I wonder if Atrios is reporting on that, or if he’s just moved on to the next apparent(ly wrong) topic of criticism.
See, all that, and Rumsfeld didn’t have to give a press briefing on the topic. So, is it really the contention of Rumsfeld-baiters that Rumsfeld ought to be micromanaging the defense acquisition process?
Kimmitt
Er, Atrios still specificially exempted Rumsfeld from responsibility in his original post.
David Perron
That would have been a good point, had I been addressing Atrios. Given that he doesn’t really post here (other than the infrequent random troll) and isn’t even really the subject of conversation (other than my giving him a brief mention), it’s not a good assumption to take everything I said as pertaining to him.
And, to be clear, Atrios didn’t specifically exclude Rumsfeld. In fact, here’s his entire blog entry. Only the first sentence is his; the rest is an article he’s quoting:
“Rummy’s First Baby
Is defective:
“Sept. 5
Kimmitt
He put an article on his page which described what was going on which specifically exempted Rumsfeld. In context, it’s pretty clear that he is referring to Rumsfeld’s overall plan to transform the Army, rather than the Stryker program in particular.
David Perron
So, in other words, that he characterized it as “Rummy’s…baby” means to you that he relieved Rumsfeld of responsibility? Odd interpretation, that. I prefer to think that he just doesn’t read his source material.
Given that only five of the words are his, it’s hard to see what kind of “context” you’re referring to. Only someone inclined to add meaning would…add meaning in that way, Kimmitt.
And again: the points are threefold. First, the problem has been unearthed and addressed without any help from the likes of Atrios. Second, neither Rumsfeld nor GD bears any blame for it. Third, said resolution isn’t going to get any attention from the likes of Atrios because it doesn’t serve the purpose.
I trust I’ve relieved you of this particular set of misconceptions, Kimmitt. If not, you’re just going to have to get comfortable with them; there’s nothing further I can do for you.