Fact: The President served during the Vietnam era as a fighter pilot in the National Guard.
Fact: Parts of the same unit were deployed to combat in Vietnam.
Fact: The president was presented with an honorable discharge upoon completion of his service.
Fact: Some of the records regarding his National Guard service are missing or incomplete.
Assertion: The President, because the Democrats do not have all the documentation they want and a week-end by week-ened recitation of his Guard service, is AWOL, a deserter, and in the bizarro world of Terry McAuliffe, “never served our country.”
Enter beltway flack and DNC agitprop meme-meister Josh Marshall:
Finally the Democrats start getting a sense of how this works. After various Democratic candidates and their surrogates have pressed the issue of the president’s blowing off his military service in the early 1970s, The Washington Post puts together a piece reviewing what we know about the president’s time in the Texas Air National Guard…
But the long and the short of it is that all the strong evidence points to the conclusion that the president blew off a lot of his service in the Guard, while there’s enough flimsy and self-serving evidence to believe that he might have actually been there if you really, really, really want to believe he did.
Yes- the Democrats are finally learning. The party of Lehane, Blumenthal, Clinton, Begala, Carville, doesn’t know how to create false innuendo in the media, manipulate smears, and engage in character assassination. Stop giggling.
But really, the most absurd part of the Marshall post is worth repeating- “while there’s enough flimsy and self-serving evidence to believe that he might have actually been there if you really, really, really want to believe he did.” Knaves, take note. This is how you breathlessly and arrogantly advance a lie. A lot can be learned from Mr. Marshall, indeed.
The facts, of course, are just the opposite. Rather than prove the charge, Marshall and his dimwitted and vile cronies would rather us prove the charge false. Of course, Mr. Marshall and his ilk have no such proof, but only the weak memories of one Lt. Col. and a simmering hatred for George Bush.
Although I have no proof, I hereby assert that Joshua Micah Marshall buggers young children. I have no documentation that he has done otherwise, although a lot of people claim he does not, I want to see the paperwork. Until he comes up with paperwork that he does not, in fact, bugger small tykes, the charges stand.
(Clearly I don’t think he does this, but what is good for the goose is good for the gawker.)
Ricky
Who was it Josh Marshall voted for instead of war hero Bob Dole in ’96 and war hero George HW Bush in ’92?
Game ball
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1070806/posts
Gary Farber
“… what is good for the goose is good for the gawker.”
I’m curious, John. Bill Clinton received a draft deferment. Did you ever use the words “Clinton” and “draft-dodger” in the same sentence?
Or, being intellectually honest, did you staunchly condemn people accusing Clinton of being a “draft-dodger,” when he did not flee to Canada, fake an injury or disease or condition, or break any law?
Incidentally, what do you think of Dick Cheney’s having “had other priorities”?
John Cole
Yes I did call Clinton a draft dodger, no I didn’t defend him.
I might also point out that I was ten years younger, in the military, and thought I knew a helluva lot more than I really did. Now I am ten years older and realize how lttle I know about things in general.
I don’t think mentioning my childish behavior in the past bodes well for Marshall’s hideous assertions. If anything, you have helped to prove my point quite nicely- Marshall is having an immature, childish, partisan snit- all without the excuse of being a drunken 21 year old.
I also might add that I am much more liberal now than I once was.
BTW- good job on Rittenhouse Reviews disappearing post.
Gregory Litchfield
I used to be a big fan of Marshall’s work. When I first moved to DC about three years ago, my first “real” job was at a financial publication. I had never seriously considered a career in journalism, though I enjoyed writing immensely. I used to read Marshall daily, along with about two-dozen other bloggers and “establishment” journalists who had blogs, in order to pick up the tricks of the trade.
Marshall used to strike me as pretty pragmatic guy. He was left of center, sure, but he was perfectly willing to give the administration it’s due, and to criticize the more peacenik elements of the Dems. He seemed to take every issue that came down the pike on its own merits. Some time ago, he had a “come to Jesus moment,” and now he’s pretty much indistinguishable from the rest of the spinmeisters.
It’s a shame, too. I used to really, really respect the man’s work. Not so anymore. Not that it matters much, since I’m not working as a writer anymore, anyway.
DANEgerus
Wait a minute… I too am completely unable to disprove the inuendo that Josh Marshall buggers young children?!? This is definitive confirmation of that inuendo as my extensive searches have failed to exonerate him!
Or to quote Carville… “there must be an element of truth to it or people wouldn’t keep saying it!”
There you have it… proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Matthew Stinson
Gary, Clinton wasn’t a draft dodger. He was a draft weaseller-outer ;-) Besides John’s defense of himself, you could at least note that when some anti-Dean people were trying to tar Dean with the “draft-dodger” brush, Cole called it a smear. He’s not being a hypocrite here.
Besides, if you really want to go back to the 90s, Dan Quayle is still waiting for his apology from the liberals who called him a draft dodger in ’88 and took umbrage that Clinton would dare be called such a thing.
Matthew Stinson
Yuck, two besides in that comment. Must . . . proof.
andrew
Other than Bush’s own word is there any evidence that suggests he WAS present during those infamous few months of training?
Dean
Andrew:
Other than Clinton’s own words, is there any evidence that he didn’t have a hand in offing Vince Foster? Or seeking a BJ from Paula Jones?
Other than Saddam’s own words, actually strike that, not even Saddam claimed he had NO WMD, did we have any evidence that he didn’t have WMD?
I like how quickly the Left raises the “innocent until proven guilty” bit until it comes to issues regarding Dubya. Why, you might almost think it hypocrisy!
andrew
You think that a man training at a military base would leave some type of paper trail. There must be some documentation that follows an enlisted man around. Happens that all evidence suggests Bush was absent from his post for a period of roughly eight months. Officers at the base have said he wan’t there. You think the wild party animal son of a congressman would get enough attention to get noticed by his OWN OFFICERS.
Cole’s head is about to explode because his precious hero GWB is falling apart. At least Bush has a nice ranch to retire to in Novemember!
HH
The oft-quoted Lt. Col. who said he wasn’t there, becomes less and less sure of that assertion every time he’s interviewed and now, oh by the way, he wasn’t around the base that often either.
shark
Other than Bush’s own word is there any evidence that suggests he WAS present during those infamous few months of training
Oh, I don’t know….the facts that he knew how to fly that plane and his honorable discharge seem to be good evidence, but I could be wrong.
shark
I see there is a rumor here that Josh Marshall buggers children. Well, where’s there smoke there’s fire, what a shame it would be if THAT rumor spread, now wouldn’t it?
Dodd
Other than Bush’s own word is there any evidence that suggests he WAS present during those infamous few months of training?
All the evidence needed that he was not “AWOL” or “a deserter” that anyone not determined to believe he was one or the other requires is the fact that the DoD gave him an honorable discharge. As any veteran knows, those are not free. Don’t you all ever tire of these specious attempts at scandal-mongering?
Marshall’s sentence is pointed in the wrong direction. “There’s enough flimsy and self-serving evidence to believe that he might have actually ‘gone AWOL’ if you really, really, really want to believe he did” is far more accurate.
Chumley
>>Other than Bush’s own word is there any evidence that suggests he WAS present during those infamous few months of training?
Don Myers
Dubya got his honorable discharge the same way he got into the Nat’l Guard in the first place–with powerful family connections instead of his own merits.
There is enough anectdotal evidence and holes in the record that you can make a case in Dubya’s favor—but you really, really, REALLY have to want to, and you have to ignore a lot of primary source documentation in Dubya’s service record.
You can compare/contrast to Clinton all you want, but you seem to forget that Dubya isn’t running against Clinton.
Kerry did his duty. Gore did his duty. Hell, even Dean at least showed up for his induction physical (he got a 4F and was excused).
Dubya got his rich powerful family to set him up in a cushy job, and then proved to be a failure, a fuck-up, and a no-show. It set a patern which he has repeated his whole adult life.
Steve
Chumely,
That was stupid. Try some logic next time.
caleb
“Well, where’s there smoke there’s fire, what a shame it would be if THAT rumor spread, now wouldn’t it?
”
No….where there is smoke, there is fire related program activities.
Ricky
**What really seems to burn so many Republicans these days isn’t that their opposition is uncivil — if Republicans valued civility, they’d actually ACT civil — but that their opposition is fighting back, after showing their bellies and trying to make nice for so long. ***
That’s what Clarence Thomas, Newt Gingrich and Linda Tripp were saying the other day, as well. Oh, those kindly Democrats….they’ve been wronged for so long and they’re now FORCED into fighting back. It’s all the Republicans’ fault!!!!
BTW, what color is the sky in your world?
andrew
When Coles says:
He is using the old Chewbacca defense. Pile on information not relavent to the topic being dicussed.
I ask John, how is the above statement relavent to the question of Bush’s service? If he was deployed to combat in Vietnam it would be relavent, but he wasn’t, so it isn’t. Reminds me of this Plame defense: “Joe Wilson gave money to Al Gore thus it is ok to disclose his wifes name in the press”
Dean
Andrew:
It obviously depends on which part of the argument John is responding to:
If the argument is simply one of whether Dubya served his time in the TXANG, it’s not relevant.
IF, however, the argument is that Dubya somehow was taking the easier way out (than a draft deferment?), his point is that joining that particular unit was no assurance that he’d actually avoid combat. Why? Because part of the very unit he was in was flying missions over Vietnam.
Somehow, that’s not that difficult a concept to grasp. (Although, given the number of posts flying about, I could see how a response to one person might be misconstrued as a response to another.)
John Cole
Thx Dean. When the moveon crowd gets their mrching orders and new phrases (chewbacca defense) they just have to use them, even when it is inappropriate. For evidence of this, read virtually any post by Andrew.
John Cole
Captain America- I pass the ball from Marshall to you. Stop buggering young children and prove your assertions about Bush.
Have fun.
MonkeyPants
Reactionary leftists are so predictable in their hatred of the President. Trying to smear George Bush as a coward doesn’t work if you consider the plane he was flying in the ANG. The F-102 was an interceptor, one of a series known as “bricks with fins”.
Oh, and the point about part of the Presidents unit serving in
Viet Nam is not a smokescreen or a distraction, it is a dagger in the heart of the lying hypocritical arguments that Bush used “pull” to “avoid” going to SVN. How could he know if his unit would be called up?
Scott S
What we’re talking about is the past. Even if Bush was “hesitant” back in the 70s, he more than made up for it in 2001-2003. Kerry, on the other hand, was brave as a youth in Vietnam, but is hesitant today. Overall, Bush’s 2 victories in Afghanistan and Iraq outshine all of Kerry’s medals combined. It even outshines Clark. After all, Bush is the Commander in Chief, the head of all armed forces. Bigger than a Navy Platoon, bigger than NATO.
Bloggerhead
John, Ricky & Dean:
The way you’re defending Flyboy Pebblehead in what is patently a case of the family fuckup being given a safe duty over many other more qualified candidates, during which he was able to come and go (and stay away) as he pleased, without the slightest fear of reprimand, only to leave service (and being allowed to, because of family connections) immediately upon being told about the piss-test, makes me think that you’re the ones being buggered here.
And I don’t think it’s Josh Marshall up you guys at all (though he does appear to have stuck in your craw.)
Perhaps it’s just your heads.
Dodd
“[T]hat charge was never proven, and again, it was brought up in the primary that President Bush and I were in. I never pursued it. I never asked questions, but there were questions asked by the media about it. I don’t know. You know, all is fair in love and war, and maybe they’ll have to answer those questions again. But everything I know is that President Bush served honorably in the National Guard, and if you’re going to make an allegation that somebody didn’t, you better have some pretty good proof besides just throwing it out there. You see my point? … [Y]ou can accuse anybody of anything. But the burden of proof is on the person who is making the accusation.” – John McCain
It’s really quite simple, Chumley. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In my experience, most veterans (including myself) are only too familiar with lost paperwork. You accuse, the burden of proof is on you. Disagreement with you is not tantamount to being a dittohead. And for someone to follow-up a charge that a fellow debater did not adequately engage the material by simply calling to that person’s argument as “crap” is, well, somewhat incongruous.
But it doesn’t end there, it gets even worse: Your main evidence is the Boston Globe story. Perhaps you missed it when that well-known Bush propaganda mouthpiece, the New York Times, debunked it. So, in answer to your question, yes, there is evidence that he was present during those months:
So, he received permission to miss specific drills and there is evidence he made up the time later. And, lastly, when he received his honorable discharge, he had served more time than was required by his contract. This despite the fact that he asked for and received an early discharged to start his MBA program.
It’s certainly true, as you suggested above, that one side of this argument has deluded itself into believing what it has decided in advance it wants to believe. It isn’t the side that, armed with all of this, respectfully requests that you actually prove your – to borrow the Times’ word – “unfounded” charge.
Dodd
Grr. My blockquote broke. It’s supposed to extend through and end after the words “a period of time questioned by The Globe.”
Bastard
You must remember that with certain factions of people, it is not the results that matter but the intent. They intend to do good, so even if they screw over a lot of people and lie about it and the results are terrible, they did good because their intent was good.
Facts are NEVER an issue.
HH
“The way you’re defending Flyboy Pebblehead in what is patently a case of the family fuckup”…
Michael Moore? Or John Kerry?
andrew
John-
I happen to LOVE South Park and am indifferent when it comes moveon.org.
Wasn’t the point of this post bush’s service in the national guard not whether he could have been deployed to ‘Nam, besides neither you or I know if Bush would have under any circumstances been deployed to Vietnam. Thus my point is valid.
Andrew
What kills me is that no one points out that military records are kept by some of the most junior personel of the military, who, BTW don’t really give a rat’s ass whose paperwork might cross their desk unless they are a personal friend.
I only left the USMC just under 3 years ago, but I’m glad I kept photocopies of all my records because I’m already attempting to completely rebuild my entire military career. My medical records were completely missing and even though I have overseas medals and ribbons, the military doesn’t dispute the awards, it does dispute that I was sent overseas but my deployment to Kuwait in ’98 gave me several of them.
"Edward"
As Dodd pointed out, the evidence that Bush served honorably is neither flimsy or self-serving. But as long as people have nothing but unthinking hatred of a good man, they’ll continue to look for anything to justify their hatred. I’m confident that their fantasy-land version of reality will have the same impact on the electorate as the Vince Foster and Mena Airport theories.
JKC
As if Shrub were in uniform for anything other than a photo op.
I can sign off now, knowing I won’t find anything dumber on the Net from the Right OR the Left.
Maj. D
Andrew: “You think that a man training at a military base would leave some type of paper trail” You oughta know better. We’re talking about 30 years ago, in a Guard unit that was functioning in a total paper environment (long-term record-keeping nighmare), and we’re talking about a man who had already fulfilled his service comittment and was administratively transferred to the unit in Bama. If he never served a single weekend in the Bama unit, it doesn’t matter since he fulfilled his service requirement in the TANG unit. (That was why he was transferred to the other unit)
As for records being lost or misplaced or otherwise absent, the Dems and MoveOn dorks are on pretty weak ground here. I just seperated from Active Duty in 2001 and went into the Reserves, and in the span of less than a week, my medical records were lost (I guess that means I never had a military physical in ten years of service, according to the prevailing ‘logic’ of the left), and none of the medals I’d received in four years at my last Active duty assignment were in my records…guess they must have been fraudulent.
Jeff
Before you go too far with the buggery talk, you may check out the actual source of Josh’s comments–the Washington Post (among many, many others).
You might also pull your head out of the echo chamber long enough to listen to the actual charges: “His officers at Ellington Air Force Base wrote in May 1973 that Bush could not be given his annual evaluation, because he “has not been observed” in Houston between April 1972 and the following May.”
Not the DNC, not Josh Marshall, not even bete noir WaPo, but personnel at Ellington Air Force Base. Care to accuse them of buggery?
(Remember, don’t ask, don’t tell…)
Andrew
There seems to be two different Andrews posting, but I agree with Maj D.
He seems to be experiencing some of the exact same problems I did leaving active duty.
Military records are notoriously either missing or “doctored”. Atleast they were when I was still active.
mark
If McCain were President, Josh Marshall and the democrats would demand more “proof” that McCain was an actual POW.
Ricky
**”The way you’re defending Flyboy Pebblehead in what is patently a case of the family fuckup being given a safe duty over many other more qualified candidates”***
So, I’m guessing you voted for war hero Bob Dole, right? I mean, “safe duty” is certainly preferable to “deferment” (where you protest against the nation from a foreign land).
***”And I don’t think it’s Josh Marshall up you guys at all (though he does appear to have stuck in your craw.) Perhaps it’s just your heads.”****
Oooooooooooo. An anonymous ad hominem from the comfort of your PC. That’s sooooooo difficult to do and takes such intellect, I don’t know how to respond. I guess you told us!
If only the object weren’t debating and convincing……
Maj. D
“Not the DNC, not Josh Marshall, not even bete noir WaPo, but personnel at Ellington Air Force Base. Care to accuse them of buggery?”
Not being observed for an eval is no big deal for Guard/Reserve people…I just wrote a Naval Non-Ob Fitrep for one of the Reservists who works in my office. Know what that means Dr. Hawking? That means the Two-star Chief of Staff that actually indorsed the fitrep couldn’t “observe” this particular reservist. Does that mean there was “buggery” (whatever the F that means) on my part. Ummm, nyoooo!
“You might also pull your head out of the echo chamber long enough to listen to the actual charges”
There are official charges? Well, if there are, they sure as hell ain’t coming from the Air Force; why? Because they already gave him AN HONORABLE DISCHARGE! How may effing times will that have to be repeated before it sinks into your collective skulls? GIVE IT UP ALREADY!
andrew
I’m in my twenties and I bet thirty years from now I could easily produce some documents accounting for my wereabouts during a period of eight months. My parents of the same generation as Mr. Bush could also do the same.
In response to my earlier fight with dean about john’s FACT on GWB’s unit in Vietnam:
FACT: Serving in the National Guard was a way the well connected avoided seriving in Vietnam. One could make the case he was avoiding Vietnam, because a man in the guard was less likely to make it into ‘Nam.
FACT: Bill Clinton got lucky and received a high number in the draft, thus he is not in any sense of the word a draft dodger.
shark
“His officers at Ellington Air Force Base wrote in May 1973 that Bush could not be given his annual evaluation, because he “has not been observed” in Houston between April 1972 and the following May”
Quite possibly he was not observed (evaluated) in Houston at that time was because he was at another base beforehand during that time frame.
The phrase “not observed” doesn’t mean he was AWOL, it means he was not evaluated at that location. That is a stock phrase that the Nat. Guard uses on their paperwork.
I’ve read so many former guardsmen posting on this, why can’t the traitors on the left bother to listen to people who know before they lob their false accusations?
shark
“FACT: Serving in the National Guard was a way the well connected avoided seriving in Vietnam. One could make the case he was avoiding Vietnam, because a man in the guard was less likely to make it into ‘Nam”
REALITY: Can you please explain in that case why there were plenty of Nat. Guard units in Vietnam?
”
I’m in my twenties and I bet thirty years from now I could easily produce some documents accounting for my wereabouts during a period of eight months. My parents of the same generation as Mr. Bush could also do the same”
Really? Not when those records are being kept in a very chaotic and inefficient manner, much as those guard records were. I have read countless military men/women posting about how their records were screwed up. But why listen to someone who would know when you can just speak out your leftist traitor ass?
PS- My college lost my records a couple years ago. And they had a nice computerized system. Does that mean the diploma on my wall is fake?
shark
It’s hysterical that the left values military service all of a sudden. When did you hypocrites turn in your “baby killer” protest signs for “Go Army!” placards? Oh yeah, possibly when you realized that your woefull deficiency on national security keeps dooming you to lose elections. Well congratulations, you’ve fooled nobody but you’ve given us someone to laugh at. A Vietnam vet who paraded false veterans into to Senate testimony? Who took marching orders from Hanoi Jane? Who valued his service so much he threw his medals away? Or the other nitwit, the General who’s “success” was so overwhelming, the war criminal opposition was just re-elected to parliment.. The moron who said on the radio that patriotism meant wanting to pay higher taxes.
LMFAO at you idiots.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Andrew Number Three chimes in. I don’t know much about military records, but as I read Marshall, Bush has copies of military records that he hasn’t made public, or there are records on file elsewhere which he refuses to release.
Is this true?
"Edward
Lest anyone think that the National Guard is not “military service,” I strongly suggest that you read this post by a former guardsman who lost comrades in that service.
"Edward"
Andrew the third –
In short NO! Bush has not refused to release any records.
"Edward"
Andrew the 2nd –
That’s a lie. Clinton received a deferrment. His draft number had nothing to do with it.
andrew
“REALITY: Can you please explain in that case why there were plenty of Nat. Guard units in Vietnam?”
Fact: Nat Guard units were LESS likely to end up going to Vietnam.
“Really? Not when those records are being kept in a very chaotic and inefficient manner, much as those guard records were. I have read countless military men/women posting about how their records were screwed up. But why listen to someone who would know when you can just speak out your leftist traitor ass?
PS- My college lost my records a couple years ago. And they had a nice computerized system. Does that mean the diploma on my wall is fake?”
I was talking about records kept by my self. You know bank statments, receipts, contracts etc.
“Who took marching orders from Hanoi Jane?”
A man taking orders from Jane Fonda wouldn’t kill a buch of NVA soliders, would he?
Shark your little “Libruls are awful people” rant has no merrit, how about making an actual argument.
HH
If we need any further proof that the left takes the voters for saps, we have it here, on top of “Bush lied” and “the economy is in trouble.”
Kevin
I was talking about records kept by my self. You know bank statments, receipts, contracts etc.
Ah, I see. So you have kept bank statements, receipts, and contracts, etc. However, just what do those personal papers, that you have kept yourself, have to do with military documents which are stored, nominally, in a different part of the country?
Speaking from personal experience; some of the documents outlining my military service in the Marines are incomplete, and I separated from the service in late 1992. So I suppose that means my Bronze Star is fake, even though I have the citation I received with the medal. I suppose, since my medical file is missing 16 physicals, I never received those physicals? And I suppose I never received an Honorable Discharge, even though I have it hanging on the wall of my office?
To put it bluntly, just because Bush’s ANG records are “incomplete” does not mean he was AWOL at any point in time during his service. To put it bluntly if you have never served, then you have no idea how messed up record keeping in the Armed Forces actually is. Especially the records from the early 70’s, when records were all stored as paper, pretty much. Not as digital medium.
punslinger
I was in the Navy from Mar 9, 1969 thru Jan 12, 1976. I got out two months early because my ship was scheduled to be in the Indian Ocean at my End of Obligated Service.
I joined the USNR, missed a few drill periods, even made a couple up. It is a part time job. You don’t get paid when you don’t show up. Your year is not considered a good year for counting for retirement unless you accumulate enough drill points. Each weekend is four points. Your two weeks training is I believe 14 points. That totals 62 points when you need something like 52.
The purpose of the drill weekends is to keep your skills somewhat refreshed in case you or your unit is called up. This extends the defense dollar which comes out of your taxes and my taxes.
When I was on active duty, I could have been written up for being one minute late. If I skipped a weekend, no one would even say anything. If I made it a habbit, then they probably would.
I quit the USNR after two and a half years. If I had stuck it out for another ten years, I would have been eligible for a pension at 65. My mistake.
The point is that President Bush’s experience in the Guard is not inconsistant with my experience. I stood my watch and I accept that he stood his.
punslinger
Correction, if I skipped a weekend in the reserves………….
Rick W.
Former Nat’l Guard/current active duty speaking here. I concur absolutely with what other military people have said. Their posts are entirely consistent with my experience regarding record keepng in the military.
And who in the hell keeps bank statements and receipts for thirty freakin’ years?
Maj. D
So, we have all these former and current reservists (this one included) and guardsmen basically saying this whole “Bush was AWOL” routine was crap.
Why is it then that those on the left won’t take a veteran’s word for it that Bush served with honor? Especially when it’s more than likely than not a one of them who are disparaging the President’s service record have never even thought of putting on a uniform, yet they seem to know all about what it’s like to serve as a Guard /Reservist? Makes ya go hmmmm.
Ricky
***”FACT: Bill Clinton got lucky and received a high number in the draft, thus he is not in any sense of the word a draft dodger.”***
Not a fact, but a lie that’s been circling the left-wing talking points after Jonathan Chait first put it out in a dishonest column. Clinton deceived some military folks who pulled strings in order for him to get a deferment (I’m surprised that everyone doesn’t remember the infamous “loathing the military” letter he wrote in thanks for getting the deferment). He did just about everything he could to DODGE the draft (although the accepted definition would be someone who ran to Canada, wouldn’t it?).
Watching so many people who apologized for Clinton getting out of the draft now manufacture charges against Bush is almost as hilarious as when the Clinton defenders were amongst the loudest screamers at the prospect that Arnold groped women. What’s worse is that many are the same people and they actually think they have credibility (general statement).
Hipocrite
“Other than Clinton’s own words, is there any evidence that he didn’t have a hand in offing Vince Foster?”
Yes. Both Robert Fiske and Ken Starr submitted a significant body of work that show that Vince Foster killed himself.
This is directly the opposite of George Bush, who refuses to release his millitary records.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Could the vets here explain why my fellow liberals call on Bush to “release his military records”? What (if anything) is not yet released? Are they asking Bush to rummage through his basement for copies of papers that should have been on file with the military but are misplaced?
BTW, my mother has my report cards back to kindergarten. I think if I’d served, she’d have kept all those records, too.
Gregory Litchfield
I’d like to second what a lot of Reserve/Natl. Gaurd personnel are saying here regarding the notorious paperwork problems in the Armed Forces.
During my college days of 1996-2000, I was in ROTC. During the summer of the junior year of school I attended what is known as “Advanced Camp”, which is a sort of leadership evaluation for cadets. While there I was diagnosed as suffering from asthma, and by October of my senior year I was disqualified from any further military service.
During my time in ROTC I did manage to attend Army Airbone School at Ft. Benning, and I was awarded the “Novice Parachutist Badge”, also known as Airborne wings. Not too long ago I was giving some thought to trying to get into the Naval Reserve or Air National Guard, so I tried to get some documentation of my award, just in case. I was surprised to find that there is effectively no record of my award. As far as the Armed Forces are concerned, I was never there.
Bear in mind that I graduated Airborne school during the summer of 1998. If the Army managed to misplace my paperwork that is a mere six years old, I can imagine the difficulty in finding Bush’s records from some thirty years ago.
And no, I still can’t serve in any branch of the Armed Forces. Hell, I’m pretty sure I’m disqualified from the Coast Guard as well.
HH
How do we know Howard Dean didn’t do anything shady while in office? After all, he hasn’t released his records.
Ricky
They’re hidden under Bill Clinton’s medical records. However, I’m sure the hyperactive left would accept Bush having a hand-picked expert to declare that everything in the paperwork is fine, a-la those medical records.
The hypocrisy is astounding.
John Cole
Personally, I have no idea what records they think are out there. I have a copy of my DD Form 214, which Bush has, and that is it.
For those asking for a release of records, they simply just don’t realize there probably are none.
chris hall
I think they found them under rumsfeld’s mojo in the Hillary-Rose closet.
by the way, i was awol sometime in 1980, and have the letter of reprimand to prove it, but there is nothing in my military records about it. it was an accident, sort of, created by missing multiple “hops” on military aircraft in spain.
so, i’d have to say that anyone who has been in the military has been awol, and challenge them to prove otherwise. that ought to keep everyone busy for a while.
CadillaqJaq
Factcheck.org has a good site for anyone interested in GWB’s purported AWOL/Deserter status…
http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=31 (from andrewsullivan.com today)
For those amonst you that choose to believe the worst, see what NYT, WaPo, George Mag, and BosGlobe have printed to the contrary.
shark
My “liberals are horrible people rant” seems to be holding water, because you – in spite of so much evidence to the contrary- continue to deny reality, based solely on your partisian hatred.
Game. Set. Match. Thanks for playing…
JKC
This Guard veteran has a couple of suggestions on how the Bush Guard froofraw can be settled one way or another. Those who can should read it.
As for all the hand-wringing over the unfair attacks on our poor Commander-In-Chief, all I can say is boo-hoo-hoo, boys. The nasty fringe of your party started this crap (remember the ads accusing Max Cleland of supporting Saddam Hussein?). I’d love to see BOTH sides argue their positions on their merits, but as long as the GOP is infested with people like Tom DeLay and Haley Barbour, then don’t expect me to cry now that the Democrats have stopped bringing flowers to a gun fight.
John Cole
Damnit JKC- There will be no lying about the Mac Cleland commercials here. They did not say he supported OSama, they said he was not willing to do enough to fight Osama.
If you want to blame anyone, blame Daschle for forcing nine votes on the issue and allowing this commercial to be run. But quit the god damn lying.
JKC
Yawn, John.
With all due respect, superimposing Saddam’s image over Cleland’s SUGGESTED collusion or support.* I worked in broadcasting for a number of years, and I’ve edited my fair share of commercial spots. I know how the game is played.
*It’s like the football-through-the-tire ads for Levitra, or any one of a number of beer commercials. They don’t come out and SAY that using their product will get you laid by the most beautiful woman out there, but the suggestion is still there. Let’s not pretend that political advertising is any more pure.
Kevin
The Bush family was powerful in 1968-1972, that’s a good one, Poppy was a 2 term congressman who lost going for the Senate,Bush the elder (from CT) was a good 10 years out of office by this time, so the power? Minimal at best. He volunteered for TANG at the time they were already engaged in Viet Nam, qualified to fly a jet that was notoriously hard to fly, and received an Honorable discharge. End of story. There is no there there. Kerry served his country honorably as well, came back and fought the war as unjust as was his right. Even threw his medals at the whitehouse, oh, those weren’t his medals. Gore, who’s father was a powerful senator, joined and was a reported in nam with two body guards. So leftists, try a real argument about Bush, like tax cuts for the wealthy while the poor starve (you;d be just as wrong but not as tiring
Ricky
**”(remember the ads accusing Max Cleland of supporting Saddam Hussein?). “**
No, I don’t, JKC. Perhaps you could elucidate.
*superimposing Saddam’s image over Cleland’s SUGGESTED collusion or support.*
Do tell. Go watch the commercial and them come back here and let all those years’ experience explain how you see superimposing (when just a few minute ago it was a COMPARISON, funny how fast the backtracking sometimes takes place) exists.
John Cole
I worked in media and teach Communication Studies for the past 8 years, so quit lecturing me. The pictures of Osama bin Laden were what is known as a fear appeal. Would I have run the commmercial? No? But they did not claim Cleland was unpatriotic, wass colluding with Osama, or anything of the sort. They stated that he was not willing to work with Bush on Homeland Security, and remionded people why this was important.
I would not have run the commercial myself, but I am not going to sit here and let you lie about it, and then backtrack to claim what it ‘suggested.’ It said what it said, damnit, and with something this recent and this well documented, it is a testament to the sheer audicity of some to claim that is said other than what it really said. And by some, I am suggesting you.
Ricky
‘scuse me, “supporting Hussein” instead of “a comparison” above.
JKC
John, I wasn’t aware you worked in the media. I wouldn’t try to “teach grandma how to suck eggs.” Every description I’ve read of the Cleland ad suggested that there was an attempt to compare the senator to bin Laden. I’ll rewatch the ad sometime (thanks for the link, Ricky). It IS possible that I’m wrong.
I also believe you when you say YOU wouldn’t have run the ads, John. But you aren’t running the GOP (any more than I’m running the Democratic Party) and I won’t condemn the Democrats for finally fighting back.
Ricky
Fair enough, JKC. Watch it & post your thoughts. I’d be particularly interested in your review of the people who wrote the description that you based your initial response on and their credibility.
Don’t punt this, please.
Gary Farber
“… why can’t the traitors on the left bother to listen to people who know before they lob their false accusations?”
I just wanted to admire the sense of irony in that.
I also want to note how very intellectually coherent it is to address rants to “the right” or “the left,” as one monolithic mass of identical-thinking people who all bear responsibility for the opinions of some other member of this monolithic group, no matter how separated in time, space, or actual position or thinking.
Very convincing argumentation, that. Not at all part of the War On Straw.
JKC
Ricky-
I won’t punt, but I won’t be able to watch the spot with sound until later tonight. If you don’t see a post here, feel free to e-mail me.
Ricky
JKC,
There is text of the audio pertaining to the part where the screen goes from Cleland’s pic to the screen of Hussein/Bin Laden in the link I provided (which is an entry I created because I’ve spent so much time discussing this with a lot of people who have relied on what activists have DESCRIBED instead of what is factual). The rest of the audio is the usual political commercial blather.
JKC
Ricky-
The clip won’t play on any of the computers here at work, but I’ll go off your transcript for starters.
To me, at least, questioning Max Cleland’s courage is as bad as questioning his patriotism, especially when the questioner is a blowhard (IMHO) who managed to be elsewhere when the war in Vietnam was being fought. If that’s John’s defense of the ad, it’s pretty lame. Kind of like a defense lawyer saying “Although the prosecution alleges my client commited murder with a knife, he actually used a gun. Therefore, my client is not guilty.”
A sloppy critic could misconstrue questioning courage with questioning patriotism, especially given Cleland’s service record. I’ll condemn the sloppy criticism (I still want to watch the ad itself), but the notion that Chambliss’s campaign wasn’t playing dirty strikes me, at this time, as a bit of a stretch.
Beldar
My first-hand, personal experience with Josh Marshall’s regard for accuracy — or the very notable lack thereof — is displayed here and here. For those uninclined to drill down through the links, the short version is: I caught Marshall in an indisputable factual error regarding the composition of a three-judge panel that created an interim Congressional districting map for Texas in 2001 — Marshall claimed that it was a Republican-dominated panel, when in fact it contained two judges appointed by Clinton and one appointed by Ford (and reappointed to a higher bench by Reagan). We corresponded politely by email about it. But when I’d furnished conclusive proof beyond any further objection, Dr. Marshall not only refused to acknowledge or correct his misstatement in public, but stopped answering my (still polite but frustrated) emails.
Hey Josh! It’s still not too late to grow some ethics!
Rick
Very interesting exchange of volleys here, and most amusing, that claim that anyone ought to be able to lay hands on 30-year-old, run of the mill documents.
Like many other right-thinking and -feeling folks here, I’m a vet, and I know from horseshit. The biographical stuff vets just can’t resist telling: the official keeper of Navy Reserve retirement points was several dozen points short of reality. (The problem was in the drill and annual training part, not in the years of active duty). Scraping together this and that from various dumping grounds in the house, and *local* reserve record keeping, it was able to correct almost all of it.
But some documents, when they yellow and start to curl up, are easy enough to toss. That’s what happened.
Now, since Geo. Bush was not making a career of the ANG, had no reason whatever to care a fig about his retirement point record, or whatever the ANG calls it, why would he keep such documents. The honorable discharge certificate is all that matters, period.
SUCH THINGS MATTERED TO ME (after a dozen or so years when I figured to stick out the program), YET I COULDN’T PRODUCE PROOF THAT I WASN’T “AWOL.”
To further illustrate the indifference of reserve bureaucracy (encompassing civilian gov’t workers, TBS), I officially retired (w/o pay) in Sept. 2002. A few weeks later, I get “Grateful Nation” certificate from the Naval Reserve HQ in New Orleans, signature line auto-penned by President *Bill Clinton*
20 months into the “deserter’s” term, and the boys down in Certificate Central are still using yesteryears scribble.
Fear not, dear reader; I squawked, and got a replacement signed by a fellow reservist, and not that draft dodger/ROTC evader.
Cordially…
P.S. Good to see someone make the point that the “shrub” name wasn’t that all-powerful back in ’72, when Dubya began to reschedule his drills. Certainly not enough to have gotten him an honorable discharge if he didn’t qualify.
MikeR
So what about the fact that W didn’t show up for his flight physical in Aug. 1972 and was thus disqualified from flying? Even W doesn’t dispute this.
Dodd
And let’s not forget, BTW, that during the time period in question our troop strength in Vietnam was being drastically reduced. OTOH, for all that everyone keeps saying Bush went into the ANG to safely avoid Vietnam, parts of his unit were *in* Vietnam when he signed up and he was *on active duty* at the same time as our peak troop strength over there.
Steve Malynn
MikeR, lets see, Texas unit makes roster of those coming due for annual flight physical in Texas in August ’72, but 1st Lt Bush is in Alabama and not flying, just like his commanding officer allowed. No conspiracy, just common sense.
Mike
When George W Bush spends $880,000 to keep the USS Lincoln circling for an addition day off the California coastline — to keep the coast out of the flight-suit photo op — it is very sad and pathetic that he can’t prove he completed his service.
By comparison, your attack on Marshall is not an appropriate analogy. He doesn’t even claim children are safe with him, or publicly ask for anyone’s trust in that manner.
Watching y’all attack Marshall is like watching a prostitute knife someone for trying to stop her pimp from beating her — when are you going to demonstrate the basic sense of acting in your own best interest?
Beldar
I’m confused. I don’t think Josh Marshall is honest or scrupulous about the facts, but I didn’t call him a pimp who’s beating me. You might want to recast that metaphor a bit, Mike.
While you’re working on it, consider whether the American and British forces who had defeated Saddam’s army in arguably the most prodigeous feat of arms the world’s ever seen maybe deserved something of a ceremonial recognition from the American commander-in-chief. The “mission” that was “accomplished,” and that was celebrated on the flight deck of the Lincoln, was the end of “major combat operations” (e.g., the entire collapse of the Iraqi government, the engagement of the Iraqi Army as an army, and division-scale operations where dozens of our tanks blowing up tens of dozens of theirs) in Iraq. If you actually listened to what Dubya said, he wasn’t celebrating the end of the War on Terror or even “Total Victory in Iraq,” and in fact he went out of his way to warn that there was much danger and hard work ahead for us there. If you tuned out during the speech, though, and only looked at two words on the banner, and you’re willing to misrepresent them now, it’s pretty easy to make fun of President Bush.
Now does that make you a prostitute, or a pimp, or maybe a rather dull knife?
Sigivald
andrew(andrew.blogs.com): You keep receipts and personal ephemera for 30 years? Of the sort that could prove you were at a specific place on a weekend, reliably?
Seriously? That’s amazingly well-organised pack-rat behaviour, then, isn’t it?
(Given that everyone here posting who’s been in the NG agrees that even in the age of computerised records, the recordkeeping is shit, and this agrees with decades of military experience and lore, why is this an issue at all?
Mike: got evidence for the Lincoln claim? You know, that it actually was delayed, rather than people saying it was? (Because plenty of other people say it wasn’t, so mere claims without documentation aren’t going to sway me much. I find no references to the Lincoln “circling” for a day, or $880,000… source?)
JKC
Rick-
Just watched the Cleland spot. Thanks again for the link.
1) It doesn’t compare Cleland to bin Laden or Saddam. My apologies for claiming otherwise.
2) It DOES, as your synopsis suggests, suggest that he was somehow a coward. Interesting that the shots of Senator Cleland used were head shots only.
In short, it strikes me as character assasination with a knife instead of a gun. An indefensible ad.
Also indefensible, though, are fellow liberals making the ad sound worse than it already was. And a big mea culpa from me for not watching it again before I made my comment.
Mike
I know.
andrew
Fact: Bush was grounded while serving in the National Guard.
How could a man who had been grounded ever fly in Vietnam? Even if called to duty he would have had to respond “Not ready for duty sir”.
JC
When every presidential candidate of the last 50 years has released their military records, except one, George W. Bush, the question will stay out there: “What is he hiding?”
Gore – released his records of using the military as an opportunity to brush up on his journalism.
Dole – released records.
Clinton – released his NON-records – or how he avoided service.
Bush I – released records
Dukakis – released records
Mondale – released records.
Reagan – released records
Carter – released records.
Ford – released records
Carter – released records.
Nixon – released records.
McGovern – released records.
Do I need to continue?
Fredy
If you lot think you have rough, come over this side of the pond: our Dear Leader is something else, why even his name is an anagram of “A B***** Liar…