I am now officially fed up with the whole BUSH/AWOL non-issue/smear. It is clear that Bush served honorably, did what was required of him, and was honorably discharged. Only the winguts continue to assert otherwise. I also say that John Kerry deserves to be commended for his service during Vietnam.
Now having said that, I want no more discussion of it, particularly from you Democrats who just hate Bush. After all, this newfound soldier worship is just a touch transparent. Besides- if you are trying to make the case that the best soldier should be elected in order to create and administer the best foreign policy, why the hell didn’t anyone in the Democratic party vote for FOUR STAR GENERAL AND DEMOCRAT Wesley Clark?
Just curious, you know.
Ricky
The only people who don’t accept it are Bush-hating discredited bloggers who are pleased with their merry band of atriettes hanging around.
Sorry, but I don’t cater to liars. Screw ’em.
Ken Hahn
A question to Sen. Kerry and the Democrats: since you are so enamored of the military, will you pledge not to try to suppress the military vote like Al Gore tried in 2000?
Random Numbers
I have no problem with commending Kerry for his service, just as I have no qualms condemning his behavior when he came home.
The thing that lead me to almost blind hatred of Mr Kerry was not his protests or testimony. It was when, in 2000, Gore’s pollitical cronies were trrying to surpress the millitary vote and Kerry made a speech that essentially told our servicemen that their disenfranchisement was ALL THEIR FAULT!!! AAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
OK….deep breaths….calming down…….
Andrew J. Lazarus
We prefer the military vote of ballots cast BEFORE the election. The GOP wasn’t so picky. (I’m willing to give a pass on ballots whose postmarks were unreadable if they appear to have been sent on time, but not to, say, the three military ballots Miami accepted by FAX.)
I managed to get about 30 overseas absentee civilian ballots properly witnessed and postmarked. It isn’t rocket science. You’re falling for an urban legend. (I’d support the Democrats if they didn’t eat babies raw….)
The GOP managed to get the media buying their spin on this one, though. We were too chicken to point out they were running a fraud.
JKC
Give up, Andrew. Most of the conservative posters here wouldn’t say anything bad about George Bush if he were caught naked in bed with a sheep and three Hooters girls. You can ask why Bush failed to take his flight physical in 1972: they’ll ignore the question. You can ask why the head of the Administration now issuing stop-loss orders to Reservists couldn’t even be bothered to finish out his full term in the TANG: they’ll start invoking Jane Fonda.
They’ll do all this at the same time tarts like Ann Coulter denigrate real heroes like Max Cleland. They’ll do this at the same time the Administration they blindly support cuts Veteran benefits.
Best of all, the folks who wasted millions of taxpayer dollars on the bad piece of soft-core pornography otherwise known as the Starr Report will then accuse US of “irrational hatred of the President.”
Used to be that conservatives were principled people with whom I disagreed. Those days and those conservatives are largely gone. John Cole and Tacitus (and a few others) are faint ghosts of a bygone age.
Random Numbers
Clean miss, Andrew. The votes weren’t being challenged because they came in late, 90% of them came in before election day. They were being challenged because they did not have a postmark even when the postmark is not a requirement for millitary mail. His “There is no excuse for not getting the word!” speech made me seethe and want to go to Florida for the sole pleasure of seeing his eyes popping from his skull as I slowly strangled him.
My anger is no longer murderous, but I will never support a cretin like him (or you) who will excuse the disenfranchisement of our servicemen who DID “get the word” and followed the rules.
The Dems lost even my consideration of a vote when they sent Joe to the showers. He at least had the good grace to be uncomfortable with it.
Ricky
JKC,
If you wish to play the guilt-by-association game, I’ll raise you one Marion Barry and an Al “don’t say anything negative about me during any debates” Sharpton.
I don’t think you want to do that, especially while you’re trying to change the subject away from officials charging the President with a crime.
Better to throw invectives out at random conservatives….makes you feel better, I suppose.
jack
Ann said something bad about Cleland?1?
Seems to me, that in her latest column she let’s Max do the talking–and it confirms that he did NOT get wounded in combat–but was, as she said, going to have a few beers with friends when he picked up an American grenade he saw lying on the ground.
Nice try, but when it comes to believing you or Max Cleland, I’m gonna go with Max, he’s a decorated veteran, doncha know.
Rick
That’s rich: telling the truth about a Democrat is “denigrating.” That’s flipping Truman’s quip about the truth *feels* like being given Hell.
Cordially…
Max M
Well, there are two smears involved here. The first one is that since Cleland got injured in a non-combat mistake, he’s being deceitful in passing himself off as a military hero. The thing is, Cleland got a silver star for his actions in Khe Sanh.
“When the battalion command post came under a heavy enemy rocket and mortar attack, Capt. Cleland, disregarding his own safety, exposed himself to the rocket barrage as he left his covered position to administer first aid to his wounded comrades. He then assisted in moving the injured personnel to covered positions. Continuing to expose himself, Capt. Cleland organized his men into a work party to repair the battalion communications equipment, which had been damaged by enemy fire. His gallant action is in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflects great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.”
The second smear is the characterisation of the incident in which he recieved his injuries, which while not heroic, were vastly different than the scurrilous spin put on it by Steyn and Coulter:
“The 2nd of the 12th Cavalry was engaged in a combat operation at the time of this incident. Max Cleland was with the Battalion Forward Command Post in heavy combat involving the attack of the 1st Cavalry Division up the valley to relieve the Marines who were besieged and surrounded at the Khe Shan Firebase. The whole surrounding area was an active combat zone (some might call the entire country of Vietnam a combat zone). (Is Iraq a combat zone?) Max, the Battalion Signal Officer, was engaged in a combat mission I personally ordered to increase the effectiveness of communications between the battalion combat forward and rear support elements: e.g. Erect a radio relay antenna on a mountain top. By the way, at one point the battalion rear elements came under enemy artillery fire so everyone was in harms way.
“As they were getting off the helicopter, Max saw the grenade on the ground and he instinctively went for it. Soldiers in combat don’t leave grenades lying around on the ground. Later, in the hospital, he said he thought it was his own but I doubt the concept of “ownership” went through his mind in the split seconds involved in reaching for the grenade. Nearly two decades later another soldier came forward and admitted it was actually his grenade. Does ownership of the grenade really matter? It does not.
“Maury Cralle’
Battalion Executive Officer
2d/12th Cavalry Battalion
1st Air Cavalry Division
During the assault on Khe Shan
So, jack, is it ok to smear American soldiers, military heros, if they happen to be Democrats?
Ricky
No, Max, it’s not.
Neither is it okay to declare someone guilty of a crime (AWOL) simply because you hate their guts and they’re a Republican.
Ricky
BTW, the “you” above is generic (although it’s also pointed directly at McAuliffe & Rangel).
Slartibartfast
“(I’m willing to give a pass on ballots whose postmarks were unreadable if they appear to have been sent on time, but not to, say, the three military ballots Miami accepted by FAX.)”
Interesting. It’s your case, then, that the canvassing board was controlled by Republicans?
If that’s your case, go ahead and make it. So far, we’re still at the unevidenced-assertion stage.
Of course, the assertion that three equals two is outside the scope of this discussion.
Andrew Lazarus
Slart, I notice the link I gave said two fax ballots, but the contemporary accounts said three. It was the GOP that established a dynamic in which any scrutiny of military ballots (or ALLEGED military ballots) was unpatriotic. And at the apex, of course, was Bush’s Florida Campaign Manager, in her day job as Secretary of State.
Florida accepted military ballots that weren’t postmarked or were postmarked unreadably (and in some cases applied similar logic to civilian ballots based on delivery times and geography), but they also accepted ballots that were unsigned and unwitnessed. (In particular, the Florida absentee ballot requires a DATED signature and witness, which could have been used in absence of a clear postmark.) The question is what to do with military voters who DIDN’T follow those rules, and Random Numbers couldn’t illustrate my point better: you get their improper ballots accepted by impugning the patriotism of the other side. (Must I mention that no such rule pertained to the CIVILIAN voters who messed up their ballots in Palm Beach and Duval Counties?)
Slartibartfast
Still no evidence of Republicans screwing things up, Andrew. Until you can show otherwise, I’m going to continue thinking that the balloting problems were mostly due to the incompetence of the elections supervisors, followed distantly by some irregularities by the (as far as I know) bipartisan canvassing committees.
So, either make the case, or be prepared to have to explain a large volume of equally (or more) odd behaviors on the part of Democrats.
But I’ve got a fix for all this proposed here.
Ron
Andrew
2 Florida courts upheld her decision in her day job. She must have been doing it pretty well.
Rick
Smear? Scurrilous spin? Get real.
Cordially…
Rick
See Ann’s latest, for more “scurrilious smears.”
http://www.anncoulter.org/
Cordially…
Tongue Boy
JKC writes:
“Give up, Andrew. Most of the conservative posters here wouldn’t say anything bad about George Bush if he were caught naked in bed with a sheep and three Hooters girls. You can ask why Bush failed to take his flight physical in 1972: they’ll ignore the question.”
No, more likely than not, they will ask you if you’ve been held in communicado at Camp X-Ray for the better part of a week. He did not take the flight physical because of three factors:
1. They didn’t fly the F-102 out of the Alabama base where he did his final stretch of duty
2. The F-102 was due to be phased out anyway.
3. He was going to be out of the National Guard in a relatively short period of time, early discharge or no.
What we’ve learned from this particularly squalid episode is that some folks inexplicably revile fellow Americans who:
1. Instead of taking a two-year draft induction, volunteer for a six-year National Guard stint.
2. During that stint, learn to fly a relatively dangerous one-seater jet (no co-pilot to pamper ol’ Richy Rich through his flights)
3. Serve in a National Guard squadron with a high probability of being called to active duty during the Vietnam because of their specialized skills.
There’s just no satisfying some people, I suppose.
Bravo Romeo Delta
Why would they be at a high probability to be called up – they were intereceptors, rather than fighters?
Bravo Romeo Delta
I think the assertion might be that Republican voters select candidates based on things such as military service. Or perhaps, the contention that veterans and military folk trend Republican (and therefore don’t vote in the Democratic primaries), and this was seen as an antidote.
JKC
The “they were phasing out the F-102” line is a bunch of crap, boys. Pilots can learn to fly more than one particular airplane. In fact, most do. Perhaps one of you can show me a cite that shows the military policy of retiring pilots instead of retraining them to fly different aircraft.
Try again.
Steve Malynn
JKC, when the military allows a pilot to transition from one a/c to another they typically require a “pay-back” tour. That is, if you asked to be moved to a new model you went through 3 months to a year of retraining, and promised to fly for another two years. It was not an option in 1972 for pilots who were not going to stick around. The military was down-sizing, and the AF/ANG was hard hit – more pilots than planes, so they looked for reasons to release pilots.
Charlie (Colorado)
Why would they be at a high probability to be called up – they were intereceptors, rather than fighters?
Because that unit already had pilots in Viet Nam.
Slartibartfast
Wait…I thought the line was, Bush trained on the F-102 because he KNEW it was being phased out. Now that’s not a good argument anymore?
So hard to keep up with the various flavors of insanity. And you’ve got to actually show that there was anything like opportunity to get trained on something else. WAS there anything else, at the time?
Slartibartfast
Plus, I’ll have to remember to remind the F-16 pilots I know that they need to keep up their training in other types. What would you recommend, JKC? Maybe they should cross-train on F-15s?
If you had any idea what’s involved in getting trained on a combat aircraft, I think maybe you’d hesitate before making such a claim.
Dean
JKC:
Please name two fighter/interceptor aircraft that pilots commonly cross-trained on.
BRD:
Simply because an aircraft is “called” an interceptor means relatively little. Note that F-105s (which were used extensively in Vietnam) were originally intended as NUCLEAR delivery systems; F-104s (really interceptors, rockets w/ minimal wings) were converted into ground-attack aircraft by much of NATO.
It would be useful to remember, too, that the Vietnamese air force’s performance was the main impetus for the creation of “Red Flag” and “Top Gun.” The Vietnamese (initially) had a better kill ratio against us than the Soviets or Chinese did in Korea.
Tongue Boy
Thanks for the pick-up everybody. I had some other things to attend to.
JKC
Slarti, I have a close friend who’s a military-trained airline pilot. I do have “some idea” on what training fighter (and other) pilots go through.
JKC
As for the F-15 vs F-16 silliness, neither aircraft is being phased out soon.
Jack Sparks (burn rate)
What I love best about this entire episode is 1) McAullife (sp?) shooting his mouth off too soon and pissing off Kerry’s team and 2) the fact that NOBODY CARES. I mean, it might have a difference in mid-October, but right now, nobody gives a damn, and all this endless blathering has essentially innoculated Bush against the issue being raised again in a few months.
Democrats, please, for the sake of your party, move onto to more substantive issues, where your lies will actually help your party. Remember, “questions remain” about Bush scoring an abortion for his girlfriend (pardon the pun) (plus he was probably drunk when he drove her to the appointment!). Also, you need to get working on why Sen. Kerry isn’t responsible for the whole Winter Soldier “Investigation” and its defamatory lies about American GIs. Lay the groundwork now people, ’cause you can get your ass there’s going to be commericals featuring the good Senator claiming the US Army raped and tortured people on a regular basis. And don’t forget about the votes against the M-1, Bradley, AH-64, and the rest. But Bush was AWOL!!! will not be a good response to a commerical featuring footage from Iraq and a voiceover saying “Senator Kerry voted over and over again against giving America’s fighting men and women the tools they needed to get the job done and make it home alive” that closes with shots of Sen. Kerry’s hippie friends carrying pictures of Ho Chi Mihn and waving the North Vietnamese flag.
I know it’s been fun playing on offense for the last few months, but the second half is coming up and your team is kicking off.
Slartibartfast
So, you’re now an authority on phasing-out of aircraft as applies to ANG? Air transport pilots have to be familiar with several types, but fighter pilots don’t.
If the TANG was cross-training pilots on other aircraft, GWB would have been cross-trained prior to 1972. Why would they wait until an aircraft is decommissioned to retrain pilots on other types? It’s far more likely that TANG was allowing pilots near the end of their service to leave early rather than spend a year retraining them only to get perhaps a year of service. Why waste, as others have pointed out, a million dollars training a guy on an aircraft he’s only going to be sitting in for a year? Answer: you don’t.
wallster
Suggesting that Bush was brave because he decided to fly F-102s is kind of silly, no?
Being a fly boy is a glamour position in the National Guard. Don’t you think most people, if forced to join the NG, would prefer to be pilots? Tongue, would you have preferred to peel potatoes? Danger or not, wouldn’t nearly anybody who wasn’t afraid of heights prefer to get a chance to fly?
JPS
Holy cow, Wallster.
This debate had become totally uninteresting to me (Jon Stewart: “OK, but you guys are about eight wars behind the rest of us”), but you’ve managed to change that and I salute you.
Look, you may have noticed that there are folks who really, really want to slam Bush with whatever comes to hand. Now, had Bush taken one of those less fun jobs in the Guard, do you think they would be arguing,
“Well, he may have shirked his duty by joining the Guard, but at least he didn’t try to play fighter jock!”
or, perhaps,
“He didn’t even have the guts to fly!!!”
Not guessing your own preference, but I somehow don’t think the second statement would be a rare one.
Christopher J. Arndt
So you’re telling me that everybody wants to work extremely hard and put themselves into potentially life-threatening situations (which is what flying supersonic jet aircraft entails after all) just because it gets more glory than KP duty?
Are you insane?
You are insane.
CJA
Tongue Boy
Wallster:
Re-read your post.
Then weep at its pure inanity.
Slartibartfast
“Suggesting that Bush was brave because he decided to fly F-102s is kind of silly, no?”
No sillier than suggesting that he’s a coward for doing the same. Which has been the point all along. Fighter pilots are a bit priveleged, but it’s because they do things that others can’t. It’s that simple. And if you look closely at fighter pilots, look through the bluster, you see that they’re divided into two groups:
1) Those who are intelligent, meticulously organized, methodical, and think well on their feet.
And
2) Dead.
To fly civilian aircraft requires a willingness to subvert all of your impulsiveness in the name of making sure that you stand the best chance possible of not crashing. Fighter pilots are that, squared. If you’re flying in a Cessna and your engine cuts out, you can bring the aircraft down without crashing it. Not a sure thing, but it can be done. In an F-102, you’re going to have to punch out, which has its own set of dangers.
So, please, stop with this bullshit that being a fighter pilot is a walk in the park. There’s not even a grain of truth to it.
Dean
Slarti:
See, this is where you’re just being silly. Everyone knows that flying jet planes (of any sort) is all the same, whether it’s a fighter aircraft flying Mach 3, or a civilian airliner, whether it’s one designed to take-off/land on 900 feet or a 10,000 yard runway. I mean, how big a dif could there be, you know?
Moreover, it’s so simple that the Air Force (much less the National Guard) will let anyone fly them, ESPECIALLY the sons of privilege, whether they’re coke-heads, drunks, or meticulous folks, (except that most of them are loud-mouthed braying bullies who feel up women at Tailhook or shoot up civilian convoys from 35,000 feet). I mean, losing a son of privilege in an airplane accident is the easiest way to get more money for your branch of the service, and meanwhile, it’s just plain cool, wearin’ the flight suit and all.
[Alternatively: How do we know Dubya ever actually flew a plane at all? Maybe they just made up his training and the comments about his flying?]
This is why the mechanics and support personnel in Air National Guard outfits are all idjits–they’re the washouts who couldn’t even learn how to fly. Just look at how crappily ANG outfits perform, have virtually no aircraft available, and regularly fall apart in mid-air. That Dubya wasn’t a mechanic just goes to show that Poppy got him into his hot-shot jock uniform.
Hey, all you have to do is watch “Top Gun” and “JAG” to see what it’s all about.
[/sarcasm]
amused but angry
Thanks, Dean.
I have several close relatives who are retired USAF pilots.
Flying commercial jets doesn’t even come close.
I suggest wallster et al go look up the number of training deaths for USAF pilots each year and then tell me what a piece of cake it is to fly a single-seat fighter at Mach 2
Slartibartfast
I’m actually part of the design team of a targeting pod for F-16s, F-15s, F-18s and A-10s. If wallster had half a clue about the sort of workload these guys do while herding an aircraft through 6-gee turns, he wouldn’t have opened his mouth to start with.
Granted, the workload was not as big when Bush was flying, but the general fact remains that fighter pilots have to be competent, decisive, methodical and organized in order to avoid being melded into a pile of burning metal. There are almost as many things you have to learn not to do as there are things to learn to do. And, sorry, air transport don’t cut it. If you screw up on a 747 you don’t go into a flat spin before you can blink. And a 747 is a friggin’ glider compared to a Delta Dart.
dg
Bush’s records do not show pay stubs for several months in 1972–a period in which Calhoun was the only one to see Bush. There is also no record that he made that time up.
Bush’s records show that he was discharged 8 months before his committment was to expire.
As far as why he stopped flying, conservatives are just grasping. The military does not invest millions of dollars training a pilot only to let him quit without a flight evaluation. Since when in the military do you get to say ”I only wanna fly those planes.”
C’mon…
dg
”…the general fact remains that fighter pilots have to be competent, decisive, methodical and organized.”
That certainly would explain why Bush quit flying.
Christopher J. Arndt
“Bush’s records show that he was discharged 8 months before his committment was to expire.”
Why not? He wasn’t needed. They had more pilots than planes.
He put in enough hours and got enough points. It’s not about months served it’s about points earned.
“That certainly would explain why Bush quit flying.”
This joke is stupid because it’s based on the old “Bush is stupid” gag. It’s too old to NOT be stupid. I tell you what, if you’re trained for a long time to fly those aircraft, and you’re recorded as flying those aircract, and your fellows recognize you as intelligent, then you’re more than likely more than qualified to fly these jet fighters.
Use logic don’t attempt to use humor. At least you might have a chance with one.
Spetsnaz
Wooohohohohhohooooo who cares wether bush can fly? realy whats that got to do with being president? doesnt any one look at the bright side theses days? bush elemindated another world dictator. He boosted the economy from the Iraq war. mayby he made up a few reasons to go to war that wernt true but quite frankly, Clinton should have went after Saddam back in the gulf war. plus terrorism is connected to Iraq and just because we didnt find weapons! people we did find many, many, many, facilities capable of building deadly mass destructon weapons. hell if wernt going to war with iraq isreal was certainly edging to (are closes allie was about to attack a dictator capable of makeing mass destruction weapons) and are we just supposed to sit back and watch? no we interven and do it our way. I also do not believe bush is doing all this stuff for himself. with the whole gay thing… well i do not approve of gay marriges but jesus its just not natral. pretty soon its gonna be children asken to be allowed to have sex below the age of 18 legaly! its just not right, moraly, religousely (any religion) and gays make up a very small population of this country, so why should the govt. let them do what they want? What i realy hate about all this gay marrige stuff is how people say “oh who cares let the gay people do what they want its not that big of a deal” welly holy pearls its a big deal! do you trust gays in the military? no of coures not, do you trust them altering or laws? i dont!
yea thiers my political views im not a republican nor democrat im on the bordor, and im 16 yrs old so thats a high schoolers view piont.