The other day, I was quite shocked to see in the comments section to the torture outrage post this statement from Ted Barlow:
I appreciate this, John. It’s good to know that the mainstream left and right are essentially on the same side.
I don’t want to sound crazy here- but I never thought this was a political issue or something that even deserved a second thought before making a judgement. Torture is wrong. Period.
I guess when you are a paid political pundit, you are not paid for your thinking. You are paid to sound like you are thinking while cranking out shrill agitprop. Thus, barely a week later from the scandal being blown wide open, we find the Calpundit sounding all the right partisan tones:
MSNBC has posted the full text of the Taguba Report on abuses at Abu Ghreib prison. I haven’t examined it yet, but wanted to point it out to anyone who’s interested in reading the full text. Maybe someone can email a copy to Richard Myers, Don Rumsfeld, and George Bush.
This is an election cycle, so maybe Mr. Drum is just following the faxes from Hyannisport:
The horrifying abuse of Iraqi prisoners, which the world has now seen, is absolutely unacceptable and inexcusable. And the response of the administration, certainly the Pentagon, has been slow and inappropriate.
Get it guys- this is not a human rights issue. It is campaign fodder.
And like sand through the hour-glass, my opinion of the Democrats gets worse.
Terry
In a similar vein relative to John Kerry’s comments on the subject earlier today, I think Jonah Goldberg got it right:
“Why is he acting so surprised about these torture allegations? I mean isn’t this pretty trivial compared to the stuff he said he and his colleagues did in Vietnam?”
SAO
This, coming from the guy who had nothing to say about the massacre in Faluja except how it pertained to Marcos Zuniga.
Hypocritical trash, as usual.
S.W. Anderson
Of course the torture and humiliation that went on in that prison in Iraq are wrong, period.
I don’t see the wrongdoing involved as a partisan issue. I do see President Bush’s unwillingness to utter an apology as a fair topic for criticism in this election year. It reflects so well part of what’s wrong with him and his leadership.
For that matter, our being in Iraq is fair game as well.
shark
Bush didn’t issue an apology? GOOD! We- as a nation- have nothing to apologize for. Those scum that abused the prisoners were acting contrary to our rules and convents. They were not done with the permission or consent (implicit or explicit) of the United States.
All we owe the arab world on this is exactly what we’re doing: bringing the scum who did this to justice.
Having said that, the coverage this has recieved has outstripped the coverage of the barbaric murder of the American contractors.
My interest in this story is officially over.
And speaking of apologies….the arab world better count themselves lucky we don’t start asking THEM to apologize for their actions.
Dorian
“This, coming from the guy who had nothing to say about the massacre in Faluja except how it pertained to Marcos Zuniga.”
Just what political party did the IRAQUIS who were responsible for this “massacre” belong to?
As I recall some time was devoted to the F A L L U J A H deaths other than the time spent discussing Zuniga’s latest case of athlete
Basilisk
The loony left is ignoring one of the most important aspects of this scandal. To wit: this was not revealed by the press, no Woodward or Bernstein ferreted out this situation. Before the first publication, the U.S. Army had already initiated investigation, relieved soldiers of their duties pending results of investigation, and appeared ready, willing and able to proceed with courts martials of all persons involved with the torture or abuse of these prisoners. There was no cover-up, there will be no white-wash.
Notwithstanding the fact that many of these prisoners fall outside of the provisions of the Geneva Conventions (as illegal combatants), the U.S. government’s position has always been to provide the same degree of treatment to them as would be required by the Geneva Conventions.
There is no question that the treatment of these prisoners was appalling, outrageous and illegal. There is also no question that any government personnel, uniformed or otherwise, will be pursued, prosecuted and, if found guilty, punished to the full extent of the law. As it now appears that a number of deaths occurred, possibly intentional homicides, possibly only ‘accidental’ deaths arising as a result of the infliction of unlawful torture, that some of these personnel will be facing the death penalty under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Justice will be served.
HH
If you find a memo or letter saying the following or something like it…
“Dear US military,
Please abuse all the Iraqi prisoners you can.
Sincerely,
President Bush”
…Bush has nothing to apologize for. It’s a “fair topic” in that the desperate left is out of issues.
HH
That is unless you find that, Bush has nothing to apologize for.
Kimmitt
“To wit: this was not revealed by the press, no Woodward or Bernstein ferreted out this situation.”
Okay, someone’s going to have to help me out here — what was the chronology of release for these pictures? How did 60 Minutes get ahold of them?
Jack Sparks
here’s a timeline
http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/000962.html
Jack Sparks
it doesn’t address how CBS got the pics – presumably they were leaked by someone involved in the investigation – but it does make clear that the Army’s investigation began long before the story broke.
Gary Farber
I’m also dismayed at your turning partisan here, John.
Ted Barlow gave grace at this being a nonpartisan thing. Kevin Drum directed attention to those in the chain of command.
No parties, or partisanship, introduced.
Ted spoke up to applaud nonpartisanship. And you attack him?
Kevin spoke up to note an official military report. Which is possibly the most linked-to-ever link.
And you attack him?
Why not attack all those others who link to it? Why not?
Shame on you for erupting into some sort of weird party thing. It’s as if you were accusing Labour of 1940 of being against defeating Hitler. Shame.
Gary Farber
“Get it guys- this is not a human rights issue. It is campaign fodder.”
If you say so.
“And like sand through the hour-glass, my opinion of the Democrats gets worse.”
And so I think of you for turning this into a partisan issue, John.
It’s just disgusting of you.
(Yes, I suppose someone somewhere did it before; they’re not supposed to be in the “respected blogger” category; you’re the first to go there that I’ve seen.)
I don’t know what party Joseph Darby is from, and, you know, I bet that it doesn’t matter.
Stop turning this into a party matter, John. It’s unworthy of you, and it’s disgusting. You’re better than this.
John Cole
How am I turning this into a party matter- I am reacting to documented behavior.
JKC
John-
Is criticism of the Administration “partisan” when it comes from Democrats, but “non-partisan” when it comes from Republicans?
Because I lean Democratic in my politics, does my disgust with the fact that the President hasn’t bothered to read the Taguba Report make me a “shrill partisan?”
ape
The left really has gone too far this time. They said didn’t want a war without UN authority. Then they said that it might not be as easy as Rummy made out, and now they have the temerity to criticize when the CiC and his staff find out about systematic torture and don’t say anything for 5 months. That’s hypocrisy, because its not what decent americans, as typified by GWB, would do.
They hate america. Thery’re using it to score cheap political points. One commentator had the gall to suggest that we shouldn’t worship someone who volunteered to fight in a war that the commentator disagreed with. To tar them all with that thick brush is entirely fair – when have you heard them criticize Rall? NEVER! They think that the president’s acts, and the actions of the troops under his command, are somehow more important.
The right are, to a man & woman, treating the issue with dignity and decency it deserves. Like Rush, who says the whole issue is no more serious than a ‘hazing’ incident at college. And wisely points out that the liberal untermensch ‘didn’t say anything’ when some people who, erm, not only do not represent their country, but no country at all, having been deprived of their state, fall into anarchy. I mean, AS RUSH REPEATEDLY SAYS, THERE IS ISN’T A STORY HERE AT ALL, just something cooked up by the liberals because they hate bush & therefore hate america. as a republican, i stand by Rush, and agree that the liberal media is deliberately censoring any positive story that comes out about US troops.
and now the left will no doubt complain about the extra $25bn appropriation after the administration promised it wouldn’t need any more. they hate anyone who demonstrates competence, and the willingness to get things done. this is because they don’t want america to succeed, and they’re obsessed with vietnam.
and they dare impugn dear leader’s patriotism & honesty!
JKC
Shark- you said:
Except, my friend, it was done in our name, by soldiers wearing the uniform of our country, operating under our flag. We (the nation) sent them over there. They’re not a bunch of stateless thugs who stormed the prison, took it over, and proceeded to abuse the prisoners.
Tacitus has a good perspective on this, if you’re interested.
ape
I for one think it is outrageous to blame the CiC and his administration for the effects of a war which they planned, supported against all criticism, arranged, conducted and completed (on deadline) some time ago. No such effects can be the fault of the president or his administration because they all involve other people. Like the criticisms of the so-called ‘arab street’: This involves many dark-skinned and islamic people whose views can never possibly have been under the control of dear leader! And the actions of Bill Clinton, many of whose activites still resonate today in the strongest possible terms, for example, AS RUSH HAS POINTED OUT TODAY, (in reponse to the great interest many of his loyal and patriotic listeners have expressed in the fact that ladies were amongst those ‘HAVING A GOOD TIME’* in Iraq with prisoners) in his decision to unilaterally equate men and women and include them in the army.
i can’t believe liberals have sunk so low. i HATE liberals. HATE them! HATE them!
*he said this. and, like you, I really can’t believe that I know liberals who aren’t criticizing Rall.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Ape, masterful.
BuyAVowelAlready
“I don’t want to sound crazy here- but I never thought this was a political issue…”
You sound crazy. After the years the left has warning you about acting like Nazi’s–
–‘disappearing’ people like Jose Padilla
–intentionally creating ‘rights-free zones’ like gitmo
–the Patriot Act
You are now just shocked, shocked to discover stormtroopers within our military?
And you *dare* say “I never thought this was a political issue…”
How many times do we have to tell you sick nazi bastards that you are sick nazi bastards before you GET IT?
HH
From today’s WSJ:
GrantR
JKC said, “Except, my friend, it was done in our name, by soldiers wearing the uniform of our country, operating under our flag.”
So every act ever committed by a soldier wearing our uniform, every rape, fragging, etc, the president owes an apology for?
Should Nixon have given an apology for the war crimes that John Kerry said he committed?
I refuse to accept responsibility for the actions of criminals, even criminals in uniform.
What was done was disgusting, and the people that were involved need to be severely punished, and THEY need to apologize.
but mostly they just need to be severely punished.
GrantR
although I must add, that if Bush’s apologizing will help dissipate the situation, I think he might as well do it, even if he doesn’t strictly owe it.
But I think his speech to al arabiya and alhurrah went over pretty well without an apology.
shark
JKC-
If I go up to someone today and smack them “in your name” will you apologize?
They acted contrary to our rules. That automatically means their actions were not in our name.
But if you want to argue that every soldier acts in our name no matter what, fine. I’ll take the overwhelming good being done over there and at the end of the day feel pretty proud of it.
Brian
You guys live in a dream world. What more do you have to learn about Bush in order to not vote for him?
Terry
I think we’ve known enough about John Kerry for some 35 years to conclude that he is not only unfit for the highest office in the land, but he is a disgrace to the honorable institution of the US Senate and should resign.
CadillaqJaq
It’s mid-afternoon on the second day following John Cole’s post… if anyone out there by now doesn’t thnk that this issue has taken on an ugly partisan palor, you must be stone deaf.
Someone else has already mentioned Rush Limbaugh so I’ll add to that: today he played a montage of responses from several liberal political leaders speaking as if in tandem with several from the liberal media. It sounded as if they were reading a script. (What else is new?)
If you were one that thought the 9/11 survivor’s family members sounded scripted earlier you haven’t heard anything yet. “Apologize” is the buzzword of the day.
I’ve got your “apology” over here…
Kimmitt
It really just isn’t that difficult to prod the hard right into revealing that their “disgust” for what took place in Abu Ghraib is entirely manufactured.
CadillaqJaq
Manufactured? Like the “glee” that’s apparent from the left that once again they think they have another issue with which to pummel GWB?
I posted several days ago that the Abu Ghraib Iraqi prisoner incident was “deplorable” and also said it was not political. Now, thanks to the left, it IS polical.
MY disgust for what happened to the prisoners is nearly matched by my disgust for the political left and it’s behavior in the past 24 hours; no prodding was necessary.
GrantR
what i don’t understand, is why 49 Democrats voted “No” to a resolution “condemning the abuses of Iraqi prisoners while commending the members of the U.S. Armed Forces serving in Iraq”
am I missing something?
link via drudge at:
(http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=512&u=/ap/20040506/ap_on_go_co/house_rollcall_house_prisoners_1&printer=1)
bg
This is entirely bogus. This didn’t become a partisan issue until the right started accusing the left of making it one.
Until that happened, the only issue up for debate was whether or not this was accptable behavior from our soldiers.
Kimmitt
I can’t find the text of the bill, but this story implies that those voting against the bill did so because it was not strong enough.
Terry
The record appears clear…Nancy Pelosi and 48 other of her party wished to make a partisan political point at the expense of showing support for American troops who are risking their lives daily. Their contempt for our soldiers are manifestly clear.
IXLNXS
Oh this was just silly. Of course it’s all about the campaign. On both sides. Neither fo these fools opens their mouths without it being written in a speak first. Heck old georgie boy is soo bad at opening his mouth at the wrong time they gave him an ear phone to remind him to shut up.
Trying to make it look like either side is being more partisan than the other is idiotic. Since this mess fell in the Republicans laps you know who is gonna crow. If the shoe was on the other foot the crowing would be just as loud if not louder.
This is exactly what it is. Buisness as usual in Washington. It’s time for a shake up of the whole tree.
Slartibartfast
“It really just isn’t that difficult to prod the hard right into revealing that their “disgust” for what took place in Abu Ghraib is entirely manufactured.”
Kimmitt, you’ve gone from disappointing me to disgusting me.
Unless, of course, this was just another selection from your menu of rhetorical devices, in which case never mind.
Slartibartfast
“This is exactly what it is. Buisness as usual in Washington. It’s time for a shake up of the whole tree.”
This, from the guy who said torture is perfectly ok during war. I’m weighting accordingly.
Kimmitt
“MY disgust for what happened to the prisoners is nearly matched by my disgust for the political left and it’s behavior in the past 24 hours; no prodding was necessary.”
Sorry, Slartibartfast. You don’t like what your side is up to, change sides. But this is modern conservatism — disgust so shallow for what took place at Abu Ghraib that it is matched by disgust at political opponents’ horrific decision to notice it.
ape
First things first – it’s clear that the actions of this adminsistration and the conduct of the war in Iraq which Osama started by attacking Iraq with saudis is not a political partisan issue and it’s disgraceful of the left to have made it so.
i think we all agree about that.
but we’re not looking at the real issue.
only ann coulter and rush can see the wood from the trees here.
why is america asleep? why are the views of ordinary americans forbidden by the liberal media?
the clintons are the root of this.
like our bosom-sister Coulter said yesterday (backing the maha rush who made the same point):
RANTEL: . . .What is your general take on all of this [Abu Ghraib]?
COULTER: Well, the point I just made on Hannity & Colmes–which no one has been making–is that this is yet another lesson in why women shouldn’t be in the military.
shame on you liberals who don’t like war and think sometimes bad things happen! you just can’t face it.. you can never face the real fact that your hero clinton is to blame.
over the last 24 hours we’ve had endless criticism from the left aimed at at innocents like Donald Rumsfeld and our Dear Leader. Yet none have stepped forward to condemn Clinton and ted rall!
can you need any more evidence that they hate america & want america to fail? like ann says, they are, all of them, traitors.
ape
erm. osama may have attacked new york rather than iraq.
ape
although, he did request permission from the saudi authorities to attack iraq after the invasion of kuwait.
their refusal (rightly thinking that their associate Bush would be more successful than their associate osama) was what drove him out of saudi to form al qaeda as we know it today.
damn that saddam for being so sneaky: not only is the 5 time all-iraq weapon hiding champion, he also pays his terrorist pals to hate him and vow his destruction, just to fool us!
CadillaqJaq
Kimmit, perhaps I was being too subtle: my disgust for both the happenings in Abu Ghraib and the politcal left’s current desire to paint it as a failure of GWB and his administration instead of the mindless acts of a few perverted soldiers is NOT shallow, my friend, it’s miles deep.
No one here has condoned the acts of those few but instead have vigorously deplored them, and IF it were that your side has only NOTICED the horrific acts and merely commented on them… good grief. But it’s an election year so play the blame game to the freekin’ hilt.
Chris P
“It really just isn’t that difficult to prod the hard right into revealing that their “disgust” for what took place in Abu Ghraib is entirely manufactured.”
Yet another sweeping generalization about conservatives by Kimmitt. Some conservatives’ disgust probably is shallow, but definitely not ALL. Just as some liberals’ motivations for investigating this is probably strictly partisan witchhunting, but certainly not ALL.
Granted, the handling of this whole issue was sloppy at best. But, once again, I’ll side with McCain on this one. Calling for Rumsfeld’s resignation at this point would be premature. We need to fix this and fix it now. We are in a critical situation over in Iraq and partisan fingerpointing is not helping any. First fix the problem, then decide whose heads are going to roll.
Emperor Misha I
But don’t you see, John?
By protesting the Donks turning the despicable behavior of a group of soldiers into a partisan issue, you’re clearly turning it into a partisan issue.
How dare you question their patriotism? Ooops, wrong meme.
ape
cadillac – Rush has definitely said that
1) we should remember that these iraqis are the enemy
2) it no worse than ‘hazing’ (not his exact words, but that’s the menaing
3) the soldiers were just letting of steam and having fun.
both Rush and coulter have both definitely said that we should somehow, for some reason, be thinking about clinton letting women in the military.
i have seen at least 4 occasions in which right wingers have asked why there was not such outrage against foreigners doing things to americans, and in which th right have seen it necessary to remind us of these things
i should not need to tell you this, (but it really looks like i have to): all of these arguments are partisan. all of them are logically or ethically incoherent, and all of them are vile.
more on the partisanship: one of the right’s principle tactics (or from another point of view, their trump card) is to state that the left are less patriotic and ‘do not support american troops’ (this complex notion being equated)
everyone in the world, left right up or down, is appalled by these disgusting acts of criminal sadism, many of them have said so.
but, apparently, it is only the left who are feigning their horror. they weren’t horrified when US soldiers were hurt, for example. they only see a political opportunity.
if you can’t see that this argument is a loathsome fraud, i’m sure there’s no way i can change your view: to get to it, you started out from the assumption that the left are less than human.
Ricky
What Chris P said.
“ape”, you’re wrong on Rush. Did you hear him speak or are you parroting what you’ve read on LW sites?
ape
Ricky – rush said those things.
some of them were on his site yesterday, some of them are there today:
“If Our Troops Need an Apologist, I’ll Be It”, he says.
he’s not arguing that these acts are exceptional and that Rummy and Dear Leader can’t be faulted.
he’s arguing that the acts are acceptable, as he did yesterday when he said they were letting off steam.
and he’s got a new one: he’s blaming it on Clinton and “Dont ask dont tell”: http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_050604/content/eib_extra.guest.html
how low is this guy flying on your moral radar?
how partisan, how unnacceptably partisan is this? (perhaps compared with you not having heard liberals criticizing ted rall)
“but can we admit here that we’ve got some homoeroticism going on in these pictures?”
gays in the military, women in the military and clinton.
beneath a banner on ‘kerry’s atrocities’ (i have asked this before: what is the party line? that women were not raped, that villages were not burned and civilians were not assassinated? ‘hello. you were not raped’. tricky when people are still alive, but i guess that will resolve itself in due course. in the mean time, the party line is that mentioning it is unpatriotic and that kerry, erm, deserves to be mocked over the issue. to say that about US soldiers, he’s got to be deluded or worse, right?)
‘hey let’s think about this a minute’, as Rush always says when he’s promoting a view that palpably vile and/or idiotic.
yes the left are despicably partisan:
he says: “You have to try to keep this stuff in perspective and understand the political component that is being utilized here by the enemies not only of George Bush, but the enemies of this country’s victory in this little conflict.”
gays in the military, women in the military and clinton.
who is rush appealing to? he’s the most successful radio host in america and he does this every day.
who’s he speaking too? who thinks in this way? is he trying to win ME round by force of argument?
meanwhile, you are saying to me that the left’s conduct is unnacceptable for challenging Rummy and Dear Leader over the conduct of the war and their reponse to torture.
CadillaqJaq
“…you started out from the assumption that the left are less than human.”
No ape, that’s NOT where I started out (if you care to scroll up a few dozen posts).
I started out by saying: “…several liberal leaders speaking in tandem with several from the liberal media.” I was referring to a montage of statements presented yesterday by Rush Limbaugh. Later I used the words: “political left.”
In no fashion was I indicting the entirety of the left: just those with big mouths running their number for potential political advantage.
My disgust with those people is for using this Abu Ghraib debacle as just another way to bash GWB and his administration. Let me reaffirm that my disgust to a much greater degree is with the perpetrators.
Ricky
So, you went to his site yesterday on your own & then again today before you commented?
Or did you read it on LW sites, then rush back to cut n’ paste quotes (out of context) when I asked?
DID.
YOU.
HEAR.
HIM.
SAY.
IT?
Who is he speaking to? About 19.9 million more people than Air America, and he doesn’t have to pay to get on the air.
***”you are saying to me that the left’s conduct is unnacceptable for challenging Rummy and Dear Leader over the conduct of the war and their reponse to torture.”*****
I am?
Where did I say that? I’m just as disgusted as anyone should be, I’m just not so partisan that I’m going to run around trying to hurt someone politically over it (dead giveaway: ‘dear leader’……..couldn’t have been more apparent if you stamped “atriette” on your forehead).
ape
ahem.
apologies.
i thought the question of whether he said it might be more important than whether i heard him say it rather than read it on his website.
like the other stuff which i read on his website which i thought might be closer to the substantive issue than my listening habits.
this is because i am a dumbass. or maybe it wasnt me. did you see me write it?
DID
YOU
SEE
ME
WRITE
IT
???
really challenging stuff as always.
Ricky
Actually, it was because some of it was banter between himself & Mr. Snerdly, which put context into the situation. I don’t agree with Rush on most of this stuff, but I was wondering if you were going blind vis-a-vis context. You were.
That’s why you were asked a direct question about it.
Which is why you dodged it the first time you were asked (you didn’t think I noticed?).
.
Patrick
For prisoners who died in custody or were physically tortured leaving permanent physical disability, military people should be punished in a manner befitting their crimes. For the pyramid of bungholes in the pictures and various nudity in front of female soldiers, a handshake and apology and a hundred bucks ought to be enough.
There’s a big difference between torture and humiliation. Torture is reading Rall or Kos, humiliation is admitting I have done so. See the difference?
Gary Farber
“They hate america. […] when have you heard them criticize Rall? NEVER!”
Liar, liar, liar.
Of course, you will not apologize, because you are a liar, and you have no honor.
“I mean, AS RUSH REPEATEDLY SAYS, THERE IS ISN’T A STORY HERE AT ALL, just something cooked up by the liberals because they hate bush & therefore hate america.”
Yes, that’s why Republican Senators are shouting at the Secretary this morning.
Rush Limbaugh: what he said.
John, I trust you don’t stand behind these sorts of lies, but you also let people post it, and you don’t even stand up to disagree with it. What are you, as a man of honor, saying by that? You know that “this is a story” and that “liberals” have not “cooked it up” and that most liberals have criticized, denounced, and condemmed, Ted Rall, innumerable times. But you say nothing, and speak not, when your fellow Americans are lied about on your blog. Why, John?
Stand up, John. Stand up.
John Cole
Gary- I don’t read every comment.
Gary Farber
John, if you said you don’t read every comment every day, that would be fair. But I think an every two-day policy of policing is also fair. Or an every-crazy-I’m-pointed-to. Whatever. The loons who assault America, who say that “conservatives,” or “liberals,” hate America, should be kicked in the ass. Right? (And what about deletion?)
Gary Farber
Putting it another way, I have no idea why I’m bothering to read your comments if you can’t be bothered to.
If you can’t be bothered to, why don’t you shut them down?
Why are you asking me to take up time you’re not bothered to?
John Cole
Gary- I do my best to read thecomments. Sometimes I miss them because other things are going on.
Like this week, when I spent 4 hours in the ER because I thought I was having a heart attack, which turned out to be an ulcer/gastritis/acid reflux.
I also had to read 40 final papers, examine 35 final projects, and get all my grades in.
BTW- my car is in the shop- that burned up another 4 hours today.
IN short, I do my best to read all thecomments, and when I find offensive ones, I either correct them or remove them if they are beyond the pale. Other than that, I depend on the community here to help police.
Many times people on the right make offensive statements here, and I feel no need to respond because you, Andrew, JKC, or others have already dealt with theissue. likewise, thereare moderate righties who fend off the Dave’s and the moonbats on the left.
In short, I do try to read all the comments, but I miss some. I am not going to apologize for that, nor am I going to tell you why you should read the comments here when I certainly do not read every one.
If it bothers you that my approach is such- don’t comment or read the comments. I would prefer that you continue to particpate in the comments (particularly when you are pointing out my more egregious errors), but if you can’t handle my approach, I understand.
dman
God help us if the Secretary of Defense or the President must be considered responsible for every action that can be subject to a court martial.
Andrew J. Lazarus
DMan, I think that’s very reasonable. Heck, Howard K. Smith has a story in his autobiography of soldier he was accompanying as a journalist shooting two German prisoners “trying to escape” because it was too cold to escort them back to headquarters. Do I think that besmirches FDR? Of course not.
Unfortunately, it also doesn’t really obtain here. From Kevin Drum (all quotes are sourced there):
The Red Cross also warned the US Government, and that was even though our own officers already admit (illegally) hiding some of the prisoners.
Drum again:
Iceberg. Tip.
Slartibartfast
“Sorry, Slartibartfast. You don’t like what your side is up to, change sides.”
My “side”? I have no idea what you’re talking about. No one I know is behaving as you describe, Kimmitt.
Sadly, you’re turning out to be not just partisan, but partisan and stupid. I’ve got no patience for this sort of horseshit. I once thought you were smarter than this, but you’re quickly convincing me otherwise.
Kimmitt
“No one I know is behaving as you describe, Kimmitt.”
Oh, please. There are plenty of hard-righties who were shocked and horrified by the torture for a good twelve minutes, then immediately became even more shocked and horrified that the Left had the unmitigated gall to posit that perhaps the kinds of people who were at the helm during this sort of thing should not be in office. Swing by Instapundit sometime (not to mention LGF or the Rottweiler); you’ll see a huge pile of them.
A related tactic is to blame the torture on something really insane, like the Farrely Brothers or gender integration of the armed forces.
Heck, look at how Instapundit or DeLay responds to some of the Republican officeholders with some decency left who dare to hold Rumsfeld accountable.
The Right (and its political organ, the Republican Party) has gone on a collective journey of stark madness. The only way to stop it is to deny it political power, then let it wither on the vine. Yes, I’m partisan. Because, apparently, being utterly horrified by this torture and seeking to do something other than make excuses is a partisan value. It’s not the Democratic leadership which covered this up and which savages anyone that expresses their horror.
StuckInOregon
What happened at the Prison is wrong. Those that are responsible need to fall their swords. There is not a cover up, the military is investigating the circustances, things like this don’t see the light of day overnight. This is not JAG or Navy NCIS. This is the real world. Unfortunately people lie, try to confuse, and mislead if it gets the heat off of them. Nothing happens in teh miltary that the CO’s staff doesn’t know about it. Enlisted personnel are intelligent, but they don’tdo something like this without directions from above. As for it being Rummy’s fault get a grip on reality. He has become a target for those that want to see bush gone. If you listen to Air America Rummy is in control of everything happening over there.Which is pure crap. They are letting the military run the war. So by calling the Bush administration a group of Chickhawks. they are trying to get the spotlight off their own lack luster candidate. With some of the pople of this country it is working. Especially those that read the newspapers and magazines thinking that they age getting the full story and not a reality show dressed up as the news. The Major Networks News Programs are no better than American Idol with all the contestents being william Hung.
StuckInOregon
What happened at the Prison is wrong. Those that are responsible need to fall their swords. There is not a cover up, the military is investigating the circustances, things like this don’t see the light of day overnight. This is not JAG or Navy NCIS. This is the real world. Unfortunately people lie, try to confuse, and mislead if it gets the heat off of them. Nothing happens in teh miltary that the CO’s staff doesn’t know about it. Enlisted personnel are intelligent, but they don’tdo something like this without directions from above. As for it being Rummy’s fault get a grip on reality. He has become a target for those that want to see bush gone. If you listen to Air America Rummy is in control of everything happening over there.Which is pure crap. They are letting the military run the war. So by calling the Bush administration a group of Chickhawks. they are trying to get the spotlight off their own lack luster candidate. With some of the people of this country it is working. Especially those that read the newspapers and magazines thinking that they age getting the full story and not a reality show dressed up as the news. The Major Networks News Programs are no better than American Idol with all the contestents being william Hung.
Kimmitt
“There is not a cover up, the military is investigating the circustances, things like this don’t see the light of day overnight.”
I disagree. I believe it is quite obvious that there was a coverup and the problem was given only the most cursory attention until the pictures were leaked to the media.
Various sources describe Bremer and Powell bringing the status of prisoners up during high-level meetings and getting essentially laughed off (with added macho posturing regarding what our various leaders would do if they got their hands on prisoners). I am quite certain that Bush and Rumsfeld were fully aware of how bad things were (if not all the details).
Andrew J. Lazarus
Shorter StuckInOregon: “If only Stalin knew!”
Slartibartfast
Shorter Kimmitt: I can show you a couple of Conservatives who are behaving badly, therefore all Conservatives are bad.
I shouldn’t need to point out that there’s a nontrivial flaw in that idea.
And your suggestion that the administration is savaging anyone who expresses their horror is…similarly flawed. And I’m being charitable.
Fuck you, Kimmitt. You’re indulging in infantile guilt-byu-association games. You should be ashamed of yourself, and aren’t smart enough to recognize that.
Slartibartfast
I meant guilt-by-association, of course. Nothing was implied about Brigham Young University’s propensity to indulge in logical fallacy.