With the Abu Gharib scandal widening rapidly (at least the available public knowledge), count me as one of the first to suggest that a May 19 trial date (ten days from now), is just a little bit too soon:
Stung by a worldwide outcry, the U.S. military Sunday announced the first court-martial in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse allegations, ordering a reservist to face a public trial in Baghdad on May 19.
Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., a member of the 372nd Military Police Company, will face a military court less than a month after photos of prisoners being abused and humiliated were first broadcast April 28.
Both the speed of the trial’s scheduling and the venue in the Iraqi capital underscore the military’s realization that it must demonstrate resolve in prosecuting those responsible for a scandal that threatens to undermine the U.S. mission in Iraq and President Bush’s re-election chances.
The abuse appears to have been deeper and more systemic than most of usinitially thought, and I am not ready to start throwing soldiers overboard without all the facts available.
While I am at it, I do believe that this was systemic- soldiers do not behave this way without tacit approval from superiors, so let’s not focus on the small fish and forget the bigger picture- including this specialist. I agree with many aspects of this piece, but Mark Kleiman says it better:
The temptation will be to blame a small group of people and charge them with brutality. Yes, individuals should be held accountable for what they do. But a democracy cannot content itself with pushing blame downward.
Let me also note two things- there is some rot here, but I would hope that people will recognize the differences between the actions that occurred here and the wider US military. It can not be repeated enough that this does not reflect the true attitudes of most soldiers in the military.
Second, can we please stop with the Nazi comparisons? This abuse is shocking- it is painful to look at the pictures, like being punched in the gut and embarassed and deeply ashamed at the same time. I might also add that one of next reactions was one of fear- how many soldiers are going to die because of this?
Few (I am sure examples can be found) would attempt to diminish how wrong this behavior was, but it is not diminishing the magnitude of the evil to suggest that this is not Nazi-like behavior, nor was it on par with the fascist Ba’athist system of rule by torture, rape, and murder. Anyone who claims that this is Nazi-like behavior has no sense of the deep-seated, inhumane cruelty and total indifference towards human life and dignity that the Nazi’s andthe Ba’athist had as the centerpiece of their apparatuses to maintain political control.
What I find most amusing about the “Nazi” comparisons is that they come from predominantly liberal commenters, which is rather peculiar. As a conservative, I do not think I am mis-stating facts or history when I note that in modern history, it has been the liberals who often times have had a rather distinguished record on human rights issues, with the exceptions occurring only when their recognition of the sanctity and importance of human rights interferes with their fetish for socialist and communist dictatorships and governments. Even then, however, exceptions can be found. I don’t think many would argue with my assertion that few people did more to end the former Soviet Union than Lane Kirkland, who I do not think will be mistaken as a rock-ribbed conservative.
In short, liberals have a proud tradition of being on the right side of many civil and human rights issues, and should know better than to wantonly throw about the Nazi label.
shark
Yeah, because heaven knows those poor souls who died at Auschwitz, Dauchu, Treblinka etc, would’ve given just about anything to be made to strip and be humiliated in front of women and other men instead of being worked to death, forced to dig their own mass grave, and brutally machine-gunned down. Or made to take the final “shower”
Come to think of it, the American contractors who were butchered and nobody around the world or on the left or in the media cared about- they would also probably have given anything to be humiliated rather than killed, burned, mutilated, and left to hang out on a bridge by a savage, depraved lot.
So spare me the breast-beating and mock outrage over this. This is no atrocity. This is a bunch of assholes who violated rules, from the lowest up to the General in charge of the whole prison. And they should all face justice. And whatever issues we have in our military system that made it easier for this to happen should be fixed.
But spare me the outrage of the Arab world, who can’t be bothered to condemn the same or worse treatment among themselves. Spare me the media outrage from a bunch of hypocrites who looked the other way from Saddam in order to keep their access. Who already forgot the contractors killed by barbarians. Spare me the outrage of the left, who bandies about words like “resignation” “impeachment” and “nazi” like cudgels, and with about as much grace. Spare me the partisian caterwailing of elected hacks preening for the cameras, trying to score cheap political zings at the expense of the administration.
Spare me all of this. Because it is all bullshit. Spare me world-wide condemnations, a world that laughs when homicide bombers kill innocent Israelis on a bus. That turns a blind eye to genocides in multiple countries. That allows and encourages abuse of women, children and people of different faiths. A world that actively worked to deprive starving Iraqi women and children of their money for food, and diverted it into the pockets of pampered and perfumed diplomats.
This is a problem. And we’ll clean it up. Because that’s who we are and that’s we do. That’s the standard we hold ourselves to.
And thats it. Spare me the rest of it, because it is all bullshit.
Oliver
I don’t throw the Nazi thing around lightly. I haven’t agreed with the Bush=Nazi things because as horrible as Bush is, he isn’t a Nazi.
But can you honestly look at those pictures and think that the SS wouldn’t be right at home dehumanizing people like that?
John Cole
Yes, Oliver, because the SS would have shot them before detaining them in a prison. Or hanged them with piano wire to save the bullet.
Or maybe just cordoned off the whole neighborhood and summarily executed all of the occupants (see Warsaw Ghetto).
Understand?
Oliver
All of that activity takes a similar mindset, John. They’re even using the same rationale – “just following orders”.
John Cole
Psychological profiles indicate that the temperament and mindset of law enforcement officers and criminals are very similar if not identical.
Would you argue there is no difference between their behaviors?
IF you can not understand and recognize the difference between following bad orders engaging in sadistic behavior in an effort to interrogate those whom you perceive to be the enemy and the wanton, wholesale slaughter of millions, based upon a philosophy of racial superiority, a callous disregard for human life, and the use of torture, rape and murder for political gain and domination, then I simply give up on you Oliver.
It does not make me happy to have to sit here and say things like ‘they are not as bad as Nazi’s,” because that is hardly a measuring stick I want to use for my society, but I am capable of making the distinction. I am sorry you are not, and in light of that, it make this post even more absurd.
Andrew J. Lazarus
John, I’m sorry, but siccing dogs on people WAS an SS pastime. Dogs were used extensively in guard duty. Naturalization revoked for SS dog trainer.
I think I’ll pass over Shark’s race to the moral bottom as fast as I can. I remembered the line slightly differently, but Google says “When it’s hot, really hot, people act differently because they see it as emergency time, and the rules don’t apply.” is the quote from Body Heat.
I’d like to commend John for making it clear that the scandal is more widespread than it looked at first, and more systematic. Even I thought this was likely to be a small group of sadists at first, and I’m not disposed to think well of the war. That fig leaf didn’t make it through the first week. I think it’s also important to see that it looks like most of the officer corps is appaled at this blight on our forces’ honor. In Washington, I am not so sure. They seem more upset that the cat is out of the bag. That leads me to suspect that the doctrine of lawlessness for this emergency time started very, very near the top.
The lead story in Newsweek is our extensive off-the-books hidden prison system, accountable to no legal system on Earth. Abu Ghraib just seems to be an outpost that, probably to Rummy’s great regret, made it into the press.
I am just so ashamed. These aren’t American ideals, but they have become American practice, and most of America of all political beliefs will see that.
John Cole
Andrew- Using dogs on people was also done in the deep south- so now maybe we can say it is like the Klan!
You are intentionally missing my broader point.
Al Maviva
Right on Oliver. We’re just like the Nazis. The whole reason we are in Iraq is to commit genocide, to get lebensraum for our uebermenschen. We wouldn’t be doing it, except we have this racial superiority thing in the U.S., around which our economy, politics and social life is built. In fact, I’m sure the only reason we haven’t heard about the human experimentation in Iraq by U.S. scientists is because the right wing media whores are on their knees, etc.
Funny thing, too, your point about how SS troops might have abused prisoners in the same way. Some NYPD officers did something similar a couple years ago – so they are no better than SS troops. Moreover, I was drinking my orange juice this morning, and I realized that SS troops might have drunk orange juice, and done so in the exact same manner as I do. Ergo, I’m no better than some SS nazi thug who abused prisoners. Boy was I shocked by that realization.
Tomorrow – My first grade teacher wore a black nun’s habit; SS troops wore black uniforms; ergo the Pope = Hitler.
I mean, as long as we are carelessly throwing around the Hitler and Nazi comparisons, we might as well be generous with it. Some would say that to do so diminishes our perceptions of what happened with the Holocaust, but what do they know, right? I mean, you could say the guards abused the prisoners in a manner similar to what happened in a Berkeley psych department study in the early 1970’s, too – but then we wouldn’t want to down Berkeley with nasty innuendo like that, right?
Mason
I don’t know why you bother with the likes of Oliver anymore, John. Maybe I’m just growing into more of a closed-minded fool, but I’ve finally stopped reading most of the lefty sites I used to visit. I user to visit quite a few of them, to see what “the other side” was thinking — maybe I’d sharpen my own arguments, or learn something new — but anymore it’s like pissing into the wind.
Maybe I’ll start reading them again after the election.
shark
Andrew J Lazarus-
Explain how I am racing to the “moral bottom” because I reject the overwrought and melodramatic Nazi comparisons here?
I’m on the “moral bottom” because in this maelstrom surrounding this, I discern hypocracy, and partisianship, including a whole heaping portion from you? I’m on the moral bottom because I feel (to quote my earlier post) “This is a bunch of assholes who violated rules, from the lowest up to the General in charge of the whole prison. And they should all face justice. And whatever issues we have in our military system that made it easier for this to happen should be fixed.”
If that’s being on the “moral bottom” then I’ll hang around here. Better to be here than to subscribe to a stale 1960’s -era Vietnam brand boutique “morality” that equates everything that happens with the worst common denominator.
Andrew, save it for the cocktail party….or whatever you aging hippies do to relieve your glory days
Andrew J. Lazarus
Now I think your point is that we can’t compare (American, Iraqi, Martian) behavior to Nazi behavior unless the behavior is a full-blown Holocaust.
My initial reaction is that I don’t buy this.
Seeing a naked prisoner menaced by uniformed men with a dog does evoke Holocaust scenes, at least in me. That doesn’t mean we’re executing another Holocaust. It means we’ve managed, in this instance, to create a scene that heretofore would have been associated with the Nazis. If I had shown you this photograph last month and asked you to color in the uniforms, what uniform would you have drawn?
(Less so Deep South pictures, because I don’t recall any with nakedness. Or because the victim wasn’t black??)
Terry
The infamous Mr. Lazarus weighs in with one of his typically overwrought harangues against Bush, Rumsfeld, and others, seeing in all of them characteristics of Naziism, fascism, Christianity and God only knows what else. In speaking of the horrible Iraqi prisoner abuses, he piously opines:
“I am just so ashamed. These aren’t American ideals, but they have become American practice, and most of America of all political beliefs will see that.”
What rubbish! And what a load of bullshit suggesting that what happened has “…become American practice…”
Andrew J. Lazarus
So, Terry, who the fuck was running Abu Ghraib, Mongolians?
I hope that’s overwrought enough for you.
Robin Roberts
Stick to defending the analogies with Nazis, Andrew. Its long been your speed.
Ken Hahn
I have noticed recently that everyone has made up their mind before we know much about what happened at Abu Ghreib. I’ve seen it with Martha Stewart and Scott Peterson. I’v seen it with Kobe Bryant. God knows I’ve seen it with Michael Jackson. Whatever happened to evidence and proof? Whatever happened to fair trials and due process? The defenders in all the cases are as bad as the other side. We decide before we hear the facts.
The photos look bad. They are probably accurate, yet we know any fool with Photoshop can put an ax in the hand of Mother Theresa or make her into the image of a street whore. Where crimes committed? Probably, but please prove it. Who is guilty? How about thourogh investigation? What did they do? Let’s get it all out.
For those calling for Rumsfeld’s head, I’d ask you did you demand Janet Reno’s head over Ruby Ridge? Over Waco? I doubt it.
For those on the other side, did you give the Clintonians equal credit?
I have never hidden my support for the war. I want justice in this case. If it was a few bad apples, so be it. If it was a top level scandal, prosecute those at the top. The bill of rights applies, even to the President.
If in your rabid attempt to destroy everyone associated with the Defense Department you taint the evidence and allow the truly guilty to walk free you will have performed no service to our casue. On the other hand, if we do not aggressively investigate this and attempt to bring all that are guilty to justice the we have betrayed the country we say we are defending.
Let us try to find the truth.
Kimmitt
“Whatever happened to evidence and proof? Whatever happened to fair trials and due process?”
Well, we elected Bush, so now we don’t get those things anymore.
“For those calling for Rumsfeld’s head, I’d ask you did you demand Janet Reno’s head over Ruby Ridge?”
Date of the Ruby Ridge incident: August 21, 1992
Date of Janet Reno’s confirmation: March 11, 1993
Patrick
Nah, why wait for actual evidence? We’ve got a few pictures, so Andrew has already tried and convicted. If you want the best perspective, try Rich Galen (www.mullings.com).
Andrew J. Lazarus
Patirck, the photographs (backed up by the Taguba and ICRC reports) ARE what’s known as evidence. We have lots of evidence, more every day, alas.
Are you trying to say: “There shouldn’t be any political fallout from Abu Ghraib until after someone is tried and convicted?” Does that standard apply to, say, the Clintons? (Not to mention the irony that the victims of abuse haven’t been tried or convicted of anything.)
Terry
Yes, Mr. Lazarus, your comment of 11:47PM yesterday was ever bit as overwrought and off point as most of the crap you attempt to peddle with every sentence you struggle to put together.
Chris P
“I have noticed recently that everyone has made up their mind before we know much about what happened at Abu Ghreib. I’ve seen it with Martha Stewart and Scott Peterson. I’v seen it with Kobe Bryant. God knows I’ve seen it with Michael Jackson. Whatever happened to evidence and proof? Whatever happened to fair trials and due process? The defenders in all the cases are as bad as the other side. We decide before we hear the facts.”
and
“If it was a few bad apples, so be it. If it was a top level scandal, prosecute those at the top. The bill of rights applies, even to the President. If in your rabid attempt to destroy everyone associated with the Defense Department you taint the evidence and allow the truly guilty to walk free you will have performed no service to our casue. On the other hand, if we do not aggressively investigate this and attempt to bring all that are guilty to justice the we have betrayed the country we say we are defending.”
In my opinion, Ken Hahn hits the nail on the head. We do have evidence in the pictures and the reports. Now we need sort through the evidence, bring the SUSPECTED guilty parties to trial…be they U.S. soldiers, U.S. civilian contractors, or those at the top of the political food chain…then prosecute the PROVEN guilty parties to the fullest extent of international law. I don’t think the trial date is too soon. Trials can take a long time, the sooner we start them the better. The evidence will bear out someone’s guilt or innocence during the course of the trial.
Insinuating that Bush’s election to office constitutes wholesale cancellation of fair trials and due process is opinion and rhetoric, not argument (as is the idea that Bush wasn’t “elected” but manipulated the election in some insidious, conspiratorial manner). And before anyone jumps down my throat about the detainees at Guantanamo, that should be looked into as well. I think it is being looked into.
Saying that what happened at Abu Ghraib has become American practice implies that the entirety of the American legal and judicial system, both military and domestic, is teetering on the brink of a totalitarian regime. Again, this is rhetoric at best.
This mess has caught a lot of the American public by surprise, myself included. It is only natural for people to want to believe that their country couldn’t possibly have committed such acts of depravity, let alone that it might be systemic. But the facts are the facts; there’s no denying that abuse and mistreatment took place. How deeply entrenched the culture of abuse is and by whom it was committed are yet to be determined. Let the evidence bear out the guilty parties before jumping to conclusions and going off the deep end with allegations of fascism and Naziism.
JKC
I don’t think Andrew (or Oliver) were saying that the images from Abu Ghraib make us the equivalent of Nazis. I read their statements as meaning the tactics in use would not have been unfamiliar to the SS (or the KGB, for that matter.) Doesn’t mean we’re Nazis (or Communists): it may mean we need to take a long, hard look at the direction we’re travelling.
What too many commenters here seem to be forgetting is that the images from Abu Ghraib give credence to every claim of mistreatment in Guantanomo.
I hope this is an abberation, but the fact that the guy in charge of setting up Abu Ghraib seems to be a twisted little bastard who was too sadistic for the Utah Department of Corrections does not, in my opinion, bode well.
Terry
I agree fully with the sentiments expressed in the comments made by Chris P., above at 10:09AM, and herewith retract my comments to Mr. Lazarus. While I thought that I had made it clear that what happened at Abu Ghraib prison was extraordinarily wrong, I was over reacting to comments that I perceived to be extrapolating that situation to the entirety of our military/government leadership.
Max
I agree the nazi analogy is not appropriate, if perhaps for different reasons. Comparing moral outrages to each other is not very useful, IMO. It’s like saying, which is worse, a massacre of 100 people or 75 people? If you’re one of those people, there is no difference.
More important than how bad this all is in abstract moral terms is what it means for what the Gov should be doing and not doing.
shark
I don’t think Andrew (or Oliver) were saying that the images from Abu Ghraib make us the equivalent of Nazis.
You’re right….they would have us believe we we’re worse than the Nazis, if anything…..
Oops, I guess I’m on the “moral bottom” again….
Dman
Remember the investigation has been ongoing since February and not at the time the pictures broke on CBS. There has been sufficient time to investigate in order to go forward with court martials.
Jane
John, I concur. As repulsive and just plain wrong as these actions were, it is systemic and is symptomatic of tacit or not so tacit approval from higher up….certainly the Taguba report indicates that quite clearly. And by no means is this on a scale of Nazi actions and I’m as tired of the Bush-as-Nazi crapola as the Nazis-were-socialists one. This is abuse and torture to be sure, but by no means does it approach the level of state-sponsored genocide…or even state-sponsored torture. I’ll recant the last if anyone can show me that Bush gave the orders, or indeed even knew about the extent of the problem before a few days ago but deliberately did not act.
shark
You know, google turns up several instances of soldiers in Kosovo being court-martialed, some of them for incidents where children died.
And the hue and cry about it was where……?
What went on in that prison was wrong. Also wrong (though less so) is the politically charged feeding frenzy this has generated.
We’ll find out who did what. And why. And we’ll fix it, dishing out justice as necessary.
Hershey
I gotta admit, it does my heart good to see the front page picture of the naked arab being scared s-less by a german sheperd.
The great and proud Arab man, that staunch and unyielding follower of Allah, the ones who talk a great game of threatening of killing us, of killing jews and crusaders and infidels and unbelievers. The pride filled Islamic, carrying around his medieval bronze-age beliefs in his invincible masculinity. The great warriors who throw rocks and shoot their AK’s in the air whenever an American or Israeli dies somewhere, who throws support behind any murdering thug who promises easy slaughter of their enemies…………..humbled. Cowering naked, ashamed of their teeny-weenies in front of women, in front of dogs, pride crushed, humiliated by non believers, by women, by zionists. And I love it. These pricks have had it their own way for too long. I wish we could humiliate the whole sorry lot of them.
Where is all your pride now, arab prisoner? Now that you can’t beat women, and they laugh at your shrunken manhood? Where is all your dignity now, Islamic Jihadi? Now that unbelievers strip you and lead you around by a leash like we would a mongrel dog? Where is all your self-respect now, o beater of women, o killer of innocents, o slaughterer of children? How do you like being the one to finally recieve some shit? Do you like it, Arab criminal? Islamic murderer? Supporter of suicide bombers, killer of young girls. Opperssor of women. Where is all your strength now?
Drop to your knees and pray to Allah, he will help you not. Stand there in all your naked humiliation, arab militant. Payback, as they say, is a bitch.
Oliver
Yeah, do you really want to be in the idealogical company of “Hershey” there? I think not.
CadillaqJaq
An off-the-wall observation:
I read quite a few blogs, watch a fair amount of cable news, some C-Span… I’m not as up-to-speed as many who post here but not totally asleep either.
My observation: is it me or has anyone else noticed more use of the word “systemic” since CIA Director George Tenant’s appearance in committee a few weeks back?
I liken it to Watergate/John Dean’s “point in time.”
God save us all…
shark
Oliver, coming from someone who’s in the idealogical company of the Bush=Hitler crowd and A.N.S.W.E.R., you really want to remember to keep your trap shut before you make with the snide remarks….
JKC
I take it, then, shark, that you and Hershey inhabit the same dank, dark moral universe.
Not surprising.
shark
JKC-
And you get that conclusion from……?
S.W. Anderson
Not Nazi-like behavior? Well, it’s smaller in scale, all right. But they’re now talking about investigations of as many as 35 deaths, some likely to be homicides, plus rapes. And, ABC reported this evening that the International Red Cross was complaining of serious abuses, including deaths, at U.S.-run prisons all across Iraq and Afghanistan last summer and fall.
By the way, in preparing a post today, I came across an interesting quote:
“Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong.”
— Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”
That strikes me as disgustingly in line with Bush administration thinking — and actions.
Terry
Well, we finally have a winner in the category of most contemptible poster of the day, and it’s “S. W. Anderson.” Why am I not surprised?
IXLNXS
The date being set so early is a clear illustration of my point that they are just going to drag out sacrificial sheep one after another in ever increasing rank until public and world opinion shifts.
Then it’s back to buisness as usual, another political embarassment dealt with swiftly.
Chris P
Case in point for liberals who claim they don’t denigrate all conservatives:
Out of all the hundreds of posts over the last week or so concerning this issue, one person…ONE…Hershey…posts on this blog with a vile, disgusting, blatantly racist rant. And Oliver sees fit to suggest that regulars who post here are in his ideological company. Like John or anyone else can prevent a lone crackpot from logging on and posting whatever they want.
Oliver, if this is not what you intended, please elaborate. Otherwise, whatever respect I had for your opinion has just been flushed down the toilet. How dare you.
JKC
Terry and shark might want to take a peek at the ICRC report. (Thanks to Kevin Drum for the link.)
If you still want to come back and yell at Lazarus or Anderson after that, feel free: it’ll cement some preconceived notions I have about your moral center.
Terry
Apparently “JKC” can’t read. If he would look at my comment of May 10 at 12:00PM, he would note that I withdrew my comments about Mr. Lazarus.
My brief comment relative to “Anderson” still stands; the Hitler imagery demonstrates beyond any human doubt that he is a fool or, more likely, worse.
SDN
But, of course, the question remains to be answered whether these people qualify as POW under the Third Convention. You see, Andrew etc., the US will treat even persons from countries that didn’t sign the Convention as POW, PROVIDED they meet the conditions outlined. That was my point in an earlier thread: there is a rebuttable presumption that they meet those guidelines, but actions such as shooting from mosques and not following other rules and customs of war remove them from those protections. I don’t expect you to agree.
SDN
And if you don’t believe me, maybe you’ll buy John Yoo, a law professor at Moonbat Central itself, UC Berkeley:
“There is a lot of commentary that makes clear that to be a member of an “armed force” under 4(a)(1) or 4(a)(3), you must still meet the four criteria in 4(a)(2). The idea of 4(a)(2) was to give irregular forces, such as militias, POW treatment if they conducted themselves according to the standards of normal armed forces, hence the listing of the four criteria. This has been the historical understanding from before even the Geneva Conventions.
Also, an alternate reading makes no sense, because it would allow units of an armed force to systematically engage in the most outrageous, brutal war crimes, to fight by hiding among civilians, to not wear uniforms, etc., etc., and still retain their POW status while militias and volunteer corp had to fight according to a higher standard. Makes no sense because the Geneva Conventions were trying to encourage these irregular forces to operate according to the higher, “armed force” standard by promising POW treatment in exchange.”
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=438123
Andrew J. Lazarus
SDN: where are the Article 5 tribunals at which alleged unlawful combatants may defend themselves? After the tribunal, as far as I’m concerned, convicted francs-tireurs (sp?) can be shot, much less imprisoned, although practically speaking that might be a bad idea because of reprisals. But there are any number of innocent, ordinary people caught up in our nets, from 60 to 90 per cent of Abu Ghraib depending which report you prefer.
Chris P: It’s clear that Abu Ghraib is splitting the conservatives, between those whose loyalty is to George Bush’s re-election (or to their personal racism and/or sadism, although I think Hershey may just be a troll), and everybody else. Obviously, not all of the “everybody else” sees the situation my way. At least not yet. But I’m satisfied that most of the commenters on this blog will have much the same opinion of the etiology of the prison scandal as I do, once (1) the additional acts I presume exist become incontrovertible, and (2) we’ve had enough passage of time for those people who trusted the Administration to come to terms with deception and betrayal. (My opinion on how and why we got into this mess elaborated here.) Frankly, the extent of the Abu Ghraib behavior surprises *me*, and as I wrote, I’m inclined to believe the worst about the Administration and the war.
This blog is not like Winds of Change, where one of the regular guest posters is writing about Abu Ghraib’s silver lining (which appears to be that it shows the Kurds and Shia we will enter into a brutal anti-Sunni dictatorial arrangement with them).
Having said that, it’s difficult for me to know what to say about deliberate misreading of my dog comment. I’ll ask all of you what I asked John: if *last month* I had brought you a child’s coloring book style version of the photo of the man menaced by dogs, how would you have drawn the soldiers’ uniforms?
JKC
Terry, I did read your apology (last night): please accept mine.
I’ll repeat what I posted upthread: what happened in Abu Ghraib, (and, I’ll bet, Guantanomo) do not rise to the level of Nazi atrocities. But they do seem to be techniques that the SS or the KGB would have recognized and been comfortable with. To me, that says we need to take a long, hard look at the direction this country is travelling in.
ChrisP: obviously “Hershey” is a whackjob, and I’m well aware that he does not represent the thinking of any of the regular conservative posters here. But I was disappointed that shark’s reaction was not to call Hershey on his idiocy, but to rip into Oliver for doing so.
Chris P
JKC and Lazarus,
Thank you for your elaborations in response to my post. I appreciate your candor. The more I read Hershey’s post, the more I think that he is a troll and likely fabricated the whole racism persona just to get a reaction. Either that or he is a troglodyte and misanthrope of the highest degree.
However, my issue is not with either of you, but with Oliver. While our politics, beliefs, and opinions may differ, fundamentally at times, your posts are generally well-thought-out, intelligent, and reasonable and I respect that. What I don’t respect is unprovoked attacks like Oliver’s that paint all conservatives as racists, fascists, Nazis, homophobes…whatever… based on the viewpoint of an outlier. While I don’t consider myself a hard core conservative per se, many of my views certainly lean in that direction. I resent being lumped together with people like Hershey because my views may not jive with Oliver’s. I don’t mean to be taking it as personally as it seems; I’m just so sick of dealing with irrational, factually inaccurate, sweeping generalizations like this. Again, I ask him to elaborate if that was not his intention.
Sorry, I guess I just needed to vent. I’ve said my peace. You’ll not hear another word about it.
shark
” But I was disappointed that shark’s reaction was not to call Hershey on his idiocy, but to rip into Oliver for doing so.”
Not quite JKC. Oliver didn’t rip Hershey’s stupidity. He ripped on some of us for being on the same idealogical side as him- an unfair smear in my opinion, considering that (as I pointed out) we could consider him to be on the same side as the Bush-Nazi crowd. SO excuse me if I chose to respond to a snide cheap shot rather than in the manner that would’ve made you happy.
So you have to prove:
1) Oliver actually ripped Hershey for being stupid rather than took a cheap shot at others here
2) That I defended Hershey rather than took Oliver to task for his cheap shot
If you can prove it, please do so. Otherwise I expect an apology.
JKC
shark-
I didn’t read Oliver’s post that way, but I can see where you might have. Furthermore, I don’t think it’s at all fair to paint conservatives in general as being “Hershey”-like in their attitudes towards Iraqi civilians, and I’ve said that before. If you want to take that as an apology, feel free.
Veeshir
Last night I saw a commentator say that the first guy might have made a plea deal and that his plea would be entered before the trial. He said that this might be true because of the type of court martial being done.
There’s this from the article:
Some of the others will likely face a general court martial, which can give more severe punishments than the “special” court martial that will try Sivits. His trial could produce evidence for prosecuting others believed more culpable.
From what I’ve gathered, a special court martial can’t hand down very severe sentences while a general court can deliver any sentence that the military has.
That theory sounds pretty likely to me.
shark
JKC- That’s not really an apology, but I did get my point across, so lets you and I consider the issue between us closed.
CadillaqJaq
Speaking as a fairly moderate conservative with a lot of miles on me, and looking at the spectacle of an inhumanly outrageous public beheading of an innocent American citizen in Iraq today, I might move a tad closer to Hershey… might.
JKC
Not me, Jaq. I’m disgusted with the animals that beheaded that poor bastard, but I refuse to blame every innocent in the Middle East for his death because they’re either Arabs and/or Muslims. That way lies madness, horror, and unimaginable violence.
Al Maviva
Andrew – “Seeing a naked prisoner menaced by uniformed men with a dog does evoke Holocaust scenes, at least in me.”
Yeah, and seeing people in striped shirts does it for me, too, which means trips to see my accountant or my local banker are simply horrifying.
Please. You don’t seem like a bad guy, but I think you need to get your moral sensor recalibrated. Y’know what reminds me of the Holocaust? 5 million dead in Cambodia, killed on ethnic and class grounds, mainly. A couple or three million massacred in Rwanda based on ethnicity. The 100 million or so murdered by the Sovs, based on politics, ethnicity and class. The 100 million or so murdered by the Red Chinese for similar reasons. The numbers starved to death in the gulags of North Korea – maybe 100,000 a year for decades, based largely on race, genetic heritage, and social background; which over a few decades has to be approaching Holocaust-magnitude numbers. Now those things remind me of the Holocaust, and I don’t think the comparison is illegitimate. Prison abuse of a relative handful of inmates – that reminds me of other prison abuse. You can maybe put it in the same category as what the North VietNamese did to our POWs – but theirs was state sanctioned, this appears to have been the work of rogue cops and maybe rogue MI. It doesn’t look so much like anything as out of control prison guards, and a sorry-ass, ineffective chain of command from brigade level on down. Holocaust – intentional state policy of massive genocide. Abu Ghraib – handful of bad actors in violation of policy and regulation. Big difference.
Nuance, Andrew; Nuance. Guys on your side of the political fence are supposed to be in favor of it.
shark
Just wondering…..in regards to this latest murder by Al Qeada scum, when will start seeing the first “screw him” sentiments on the left?
JKC
I don’t think you’ll see any, shark. At least I haven’t yet.
Why do you assume “leftists” would condone the killing of an innocent?
shark
JKC-
I guess the question is would some on the left see him as being “innocent”? I’m referring of course to the “screw ’em” sentiment expressed by some (though all too many) towards the contractors, because they were “mercaneries” or in it for the money”
CadillaqJaq
I’ll give the leftists that post regularly here credit: none of them has referred to Berg’s beheading as an “execution,” as has one so-called editorializing reporter from AP today.
JKC
Berg wasn’t “executed.” He was murdered. Slaughtered.
And to answer shark’s question, I don’t know of anyone on the left who would say “screw ’em” about a guy trying to repair radio towers.
shark
how about a guy guarding a food convoy?
Andrew J. Lazarus
Al, let me explain the nuance. The picture of dogs menacing a prisoner is a Nazi-associated image for me. That isn’t saying that the whole enterprise is like the Germans.
The pictures of the Cambodian killing fields are also a Nazi-like image (IMHO).
I think your point is that scenes that resemble Nazi images (or is it war movie images) shouldn’t be linked to the Nazis unless, like Cambodia, the final solution was of similar horrible magnitude. As I said in my first post, I don’t buy that.