Yesterday I wondered how the Democrats would handle the Swift Boat commercial, and stated:
It will be interesting to see the Democrat response to this- I am almost willing to bet it will be nothing more than character assassination of the 16 men who dared to speak out.
The Political Animal aims to please:
I hope nobody minds if I ignore the whole Swift Boat veterans thing. These people are certifiable lunatics, and I just can’t stand the thought of wasting neurons over them. I’m sure you can find plenty of coverage elsewhere from hardier souls if you’re really in the mood to torture yourself.
Here are some more lunatics.
Hey- I oppose Kerry, and I am a veteran. By Drum’s criteria, I am a raving lunatic!
More lunatics here!
For those of you keeping score at home:
Joe Wilson- credible.
Kerry’s Band of Brothers- not credible.
Oregonian
Yawn….
You may like what the swift boat boys are saying, but I note that you don’t actually dispute Kevin Drum’s assessment of their sanity. What you don’t say speaks volumes.
Jay
Drum is calling them lunatics? Isn’t this the same guy who spent countless hours attempting to ‘prove’ that President Bush was AWOL?
And now he just dismisses these guys as ‘lunatics.’
Gotta love it.
John Cole
Actually, Oregonian- the sarcasm throughout the post was to show that I am doing just that- dismissing Drum’s charge that they are all lunatics.
Reading Comprehension.
M. Scott Eiland
More red meat from KD to his own collection of lunatics in his comments section. Nothing new here.
Mark
Rasumssen has a poll shwing strong support for Bush among all veterans. Surely they are lunatics in the liberal world too.
Ted Barlow
John, when conservatives have gone too far or are being dishonest, you have an admirable history of calling them on it. You haven’t done so with the Swift Boat Veterans.
Forget about tactics for a second. Do you personally think that the charges they have made are honest and truthful?
Ted Barlow
Also, do you think it’s honest and truthful to say that Kevin Drum has said that any veteran who supports Bush is a lunatic?
It seems to me that what he’s said is that the specific members of “Swift Boat Veterans For Truth” are lunatics.
It’s very easy to mock someone who says that any veteran who supports Bush is a lunatic. But that isn’t what Kevin said, and I think that you know that.
John Cole
Ted- all I have seen is the commercial and some snippets from the book- which seem to corroborate much of Kerry’s own Senate testimony.
Also- why should I not assume that Kevin thinks anyone who is a veteran and against Kerry’s election is a lunatic. The only common factors the men summarily dismissed as lunatics are that they:
A.) Are vocally against Kerry
B.) Are veterans
C.) Have been featured in a commercial.
Everyone I have sarcastically linked to fits 2 of those 3 criteria, and unless Kevin has some sort of nuanced explanation as to why the men who chose to be in a commercial are all lunatics, I think my charge is as fair as his.
Ted Barlow
John, they have one more factor, and I think that it’s an important one:
D.) They belong to a group called “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth”.
I mean, do you really want to play this game? If you mock a group called “Elementary School Teachers Who Think Bush=Hitler”, you want me to get hot and bothered because you’re insulting all Elementary school teachers who support Kerry? It’s ridiculous.
John Cole
Ted- if you can show me why EVERY member of SBVFT is a lunatic, I will retract my sarcastic statements.
I am not sure why you are battling me, and here- clearly I do not think everyone who supports Bush and is a veteran is a lunatic. Nor do I think Kevin does.
Quite clearly, Kevin Drum DOES think anyone in SBVFT isa lunatic. Perhaps your real beef is with his broad and sweeping ad hominem, rather than my sarcasm pointing out Kevin’s silliness?
John Cole
And, btw- there is actually another criterion:
E.) The served with Kerry. And he was willing to use them and their likeness to his political advantage in his own commercials- otherwise the commercial by the SBVFT would not nearly be as devestating.
The picture of the men was fine when Kerry used it- when they speak out against him, they are all lunatics.
Hard to keep up, these days.
Ted Barlow
I will cheerfully agree that Kevin went too far in saying that every member of SBVFT is a lunatic. I know that he meant it sarcastically. But words have meanings, and he left himself open to this sort of parsing and criticism.
My real problem is that SBVFT has repeatedly put out disinformation. They don’t deserve trust, but people who seem to know better, and people who angrily declare that they don’t care what the candidates did in the 60s, still carry water for them. Not because they think it’s true, and not because they actually believe that it’s a legitimate issue. Just because it’s useful.
I posted this over at Jay Caruso’s site. This is just one of the problems with SBVFT honesty; see Matt Gunn for more:
You have heard of Grant Hibbard, Kerry’s former commanding officer who has questioned Kerry’s first Purple Heart. Many, many sources have repeated his recollection that Kerry’s wound “resembled a scrape from a fingernail.” I had not heard that his recollection was so bad that he misidentified where Kerry was wounded. (Hibbard said that he recalled the “scrape” on Kerry’s forearm; the shrapnel was actually removed above the elbow.) (http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh050504.shtml)
Two weeks after the injury that led to Kerry’s first Purple Heart, Hibbard filled out an evaluation of John Kerry.
HH
Drum immediately attacks them as “lunatics.” After original skepticism (but not “dismissal,” and certainly not “ignoring” him – indeed he sought out an interview), here’s what he said about the now discredited Burkett – “Second, although I said I was skeptical about Burkett yesterday, several things have convinced me that his story is at least believable enough that it deserves wider exposure…” Now suddenly, Drum has no curiosity at all about these charges and says they deserve no exposure as far as he’s concerned.
I am withholding judgment because I have not seen enough evidence one way or another on these most recent allegations. But to dismiss them and ignore them right away when you were so eager to go on a fishing expedition against Bush’s service is some of the starkest, worst hypocrisy I can think of.
Rick
Ted,
But you cite the Daily Howler as “analysis?” No sale.
BTW, I didn’t see anything about a wound “above the elbow,” nor anything beyond the DH sentence about shrapnel (or a rock chip) “lodged” in his arm.
These vets are leaving themselves exposed to the Democratic attack machine, which, unlike the much-cited GOP attack machine, has an actual bite. And I’m sure with Teresa H. Kerry’s fortune available, there’s quite a lot of lawyering up.
If these vets are lying, shame on them. But there seems to be precious little to gain by taking such a vast risk: they aren’t “media” proper, so they can be quite easily sued for libel and slander.
Cordially…
HH
“I note that you don’t actually dispute Kevin Drum’s assessment of their sanity. What you don’t say speaks volumes…”
Is this a serious post? John Cole also does not dispute when Michael Moore says Bush poops his pants so clearly he must do that.
Dean
Interesting contrast:
John Cole doesn’t specifically dispute Drum’s assessment, so he can be taken to agree with Drum.
Does that apply to Dems who don’t condemn ANSWER, with whom they march, and on whom they depend “but only for parade permits”? Hear the howls of outrage! That’s, that’s MCCARTHYISM!
Mr. Pot, your hue resembles that of Ms. Kettle.
Bloggerhead
Hey, John, I’m contemplating putting a 527 together consisting of guys who served with Bush in Alabama, but I’m having trouble finding anyone. I guess I’ll have to go with plan B, a 527 with a great moniker, Coke-Addled AWOLer’s for Truth (CAWOLT). Seems there’s plenty of guys who did some time for leaving their NG units during Vietnam, and for refusing their flight physicals after Uncle Sam had pumped a million bucks into their training. Of course, you won’t sink so low as to call them lunatics; you’ll just post something that contains the word LIAR in it.
And, Rick: “These vets are leaving themselves exposed to the Democratic attack machine, which, unlike the much-cited GOP attack machine, has an actual bite.” Sorry, but that’s sheer lunacy.
Slartibartfast
Jesus, Bloggerhead. Read what you wrote, and tell me it sounds even a little bit considered.
HH
Another “lunatic” attack. Just talk to Katherine Harris, Linda Tripp, and co.
More
Rick
Blogger,
Uh-huh. Whatever.
Cordially…
HH
Still waiting for the AP to sue Kerry…
Tom
“Ted- if you can show me why EVERY member of SBVFT is a lunatic, I will retract my sarcastic statements.”
Try this:
Captain Adrian Lonsdale, quoted in the November 4, 1996, issue of South Coast Today: (http://www.s-t.com/daily/11-96/11-04-96/d01lo120.htm):
“Adrian Lonsdale remembers a young John F. Kerry as a naval officer who was a good debater, even back in his days in Vietnam. “‘He and I and others used to have long discussions at the officers club,’ said Mr. Lonsdale of Mattapoisett, a former Coast Guard officer who commanded a division in which the Massachusetts senator was attached back in 1969. ‘They were very spirited discussions about the war and the politics back home.’ “‘He was opposed to the war but it didn’t make any difference in his performance,’ said the former owner and still instructor at Northeast Maritime Institute in New Bedford. ‘He was a very good officer.’ “Capt. Lonsdale was among a group of former Vietnam veterans the Massachusetts Democrat brought to the Charlestown navy yard recently to rebut a Boston Globe column that raised questions about Sen. Kerry’s Vietnam service, particularly the Silver Star he won.'”
So, Lonsdale said Kerry’s performance wasn’t affected by his called him a “very good officer”, and even *flew to Boston to support Kerry* in a 1996 senate campaign where similar allegations were made to the ones made by Swift Boat Veterans for Pravda now. And now he says in the SBVFT ad that Kerry lacked leadership. Either he’s a humongous spoofing git, or he’s a nut.
And your response to KD & Ted is a huge honking chunk of fallacious argument (from the huge store in your basement, no doubt).
HH
“Swift Boat Veterans for Pravda”
Well, that certainly proves something about “lunacy.” Bravo.
The guy defending ad hominems lectures us on “fallacious arguments.”
HH
Sorry Tom:
Perhaps you and the Kerry camp should spend your time knocking down actual arguments and not straw men.
Tom
HH quoted Lonsdale:
“He is fit to be a great senator.”
And Lonsdale four months later says he lacks leadership (but he believes he should be one of the hundred most powerful legislators in the nation), after eight years before saying what a great officer Kerry was in his 1996 campaign. Christ on a bike. And they claim Kerry is a flip-flopper. Why didn’t he leave Kerry swinging in the breeze in 1996?
Perhaps you might consider carrying around a GC/MS spectrometer with you: your capacity to smell hypocritical bullshit is severely impaired.
HH again:
‘”Swift Boat Veterans for Pravda”
Well, that certainly proves something about “lunacy.” Bravo’.
Ne gavorete po-russky, tovarich?
Tom
HH writes:
“Perhaps you and the Kerry camp should spend your time knocking down actual arguments and not straw men.”
So, what do you think of Thurlow of SBVFT claiming that Kerry wasn’t under fire during the incident for which he earned his bronze star, when it was, err, the same incident for which Thurlow earned his bronze star?
http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index.html
Alex
We’ve recently been contacted by a group of Senate Lunchroom Veterans, and they tell a chilling tale of deception by Kerry over the whole Chic Hecht Heimlich incident, shockingly similar to the kind of opportunism and deceit Kerry exhibited in claiming to be a decorated Veteran.
HH
Tom, of course, has shown a lack of capacity for basic literacy, so I bid him good day.
HH
Drum goes from “ignoring” it to delving back into “Bush is AWOL” then posting again on it, then posting the Media Matters claptrap which still has zero to do with the actual allegations. Way to go, Kev… king of consistency there.
Oregonian
Hmm… When I posted yesterday, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that – on some level at least – you could see the insanity of the swift boat attack dogs.
Apparently, I was giving you too much credit.
So, okay, if you really want to claim that these Kerry-bashers don’t have a few screws loose, Kevin Drum has two words for you: click here.
(Hint: You might want to cut your losses on this one and move on to talking about something else.)
HH
It’d be nice if Drum would decide whether he’s ignoring this or not, and if not, that he would post that the Boston Globe article he linked has now been thoroughly discredited…
“if you can show me why EVERY member of SBVFT is a lunatic, I will retract my sarcastic statements.”
Duncan’s little Freeper baiting notwithstanding, this – again – has nothing to do with their charges. Michael Moore has said worse and he’s not a group of vets, he’s one a-hole and the Dems give him the welcome mat at their convention, and John Kerry embraces his talking points.