I am an asshole who exploits the grief of families who have lost their son in combat for partisan gain.
Over the line, Oliver. Over the fucking line.
They are entitled to their opinion. You, however, are behaving like a shameless hack for trying to exploit it for partisan gain.
Sharp as a Marble
Wow! I didn’t realize the military consisted of conscripts who had no choice in the matter and that Bush forced all of them to go fight.
Sure has changed since I joined the Marines.
jeff
You’re JUST realizing that he’s a shameless hack?
Willis (who is employed by the known and admitted and pathological liar David Brock) claims concern for the troops, but the fact that he practically gets wood (if someone that out of shape can still get wood) with the news of every additional US casualty shows he couldn’t care less what happens to the troops, only that he can use them for partisan gain.
He’s like Michael Moore. They act concerned, but they’re really hoping for as many casualties as possible so that it hurts Bush.
Sharp as a Marble
I also wonder if Odub would link this story where the parents are proud of their son and have their head on straight?
John Cole
I think the ‘have their head on straight’ remark is out of line. These people are grieving. They gave their only son. They can be wrong.
And Oliver is not as bad as Michael Moore. He is actuall a nice guy- his politics are just shitty.
JohnO
So…if we can find a remark made by a grieving WWII parent/spouse blaming the Roosevelt, that would be considered his legacy? Nice myopia Ollie. Better get your Rx checked.
jeff
John,
Your open-mindedness is commendable, but how much crap do you have to see Oliver spew before you realize that he’s not a nice guy, he’s a hateful, bitter, miserable little prick?
I mean, really, reasonable people can have differing political viewpoints. I live in Philly, so i’m surrounded by liberals. I know plenty that hate Bush and think the war in Iraq was a huge mistake.
But, unlike Oliver, they don’t react with glee to the news of dead soldiers, they don’t hate successful people who think differently than they do, and they don’t think that David Brock is a great and truthful guy just because he suddenly joined their side.
Sharp as a Marble
Nope, I stand by my statement. You can be upset about your son’s death without using it as a political prop. Just like Berg used his son’s severed head as a podium, these people dishonor their son by turning a sad moment into political fodder for hacks like Ollie.
Max
I’m guessing you didn’t watch the RNC convention, where that stuff went on non-stop.
Sharp as a Marble
No Max, I did not watch the RNC. Neither do I keep a body count ticker on my blog to celebrate death and cheer every time another body can be used for political gain. But you wouldn’t understand that, would you?
RW
Marble,
I lost my mom when I was 23. I cannot imagine having to bury my child. I give parents who have to undergo that sort of hellish process all the slack that is humanly possible. Let ’em blame whoever…..their kid is gone. They deserve prayers, not more grief.
And certainly not hackery from Willis intended to slime his opponents, which is basically (aside from the lies) all he’s been doing of late.
shark
I bet that picture earned the little Soros whore a bonus this week…
John Cole
Ricky’s last statement (RW) says everything I intend to say on this topic.
jeff
Well, i think it’s possible for both RW and Marble to be right.
I’m not gonna put words in Marble’s mouth, but i think his argument is similar to the argument i made about Max Cleland when he made his pathetic trip to Crawford.
That is, you can respect the hell out of the sacrifice he made for his country, and respect how he served his country, and feel compassion for having to go through life without two legs and an arm, but at the same time still consider him–at that point in time–to be a pathetic hack for allowing himself to be used the way he is.
Sharp as a Marble
That is my point jeff. Hard sometimes to get it across in a 2×2 box. Sorry to ruffle anyone’s feathers but even sympathy has a limit.
As a former Marine, it mortifies me to think that (a) my parents would have acted like that had I been killed and (b) that hacks like Max and Ollie would use my death as a selling point for a product.
Terry
As someone above noted, why waste time with morons and slimey slugs like Oliver and jesse? These are individuals who clearly have been pushed way, way beyond the limits of reasoned discourse.
Max
Marble speaks with forked tongue. I defy anyone to find any instance of me “cheer(ing)” at a higher body count. I say we should be reminded of the cost of this war, that we may think seriously about the merits of continuing it, much less of having begun it.
Sharp as a Marble
No, Marble speaks the truth. You put a body count up there not as a mournful tribute but as a way of saying ‘Lookie at what Bush done’.
Do you have a counter for all the deaths in the military that happen during peace time, or are military deaths only important to you when you can nail a political point?
Did you count the dead in Bosnia?
Go wave your death pom-poms some more, your team needs the cheer.
Slartibartfast
Kinda telling that not one of Max’s commenters seem to be aware that the Killian documents are almost certainly forgeries. The pom-poms, they are a-flyin’.
Max
I never cheered, so you lied. You are right that it’s not a mournful tribute. That’s your game, not mine. The RNC convention was one week long festival of war and terror-porn. We don’t need your permission to remind the public of the cost of the war in human lives.
I haven’t posted on the K papers. I don’t dwell on those sorts of things. Kerry served, Bush didn’t. It’s as plain as day, even if you can’t handle it.
As a general matter, anonymous comments lack gravitas.
Slartibartfast
“I don’t dwell on those sorts of things.”
Yes. I can see that you and fact have a kind of aversion to each other.
John Cole
I would like to just call Max for apersonal foul for using the word ‘gravitas’ after the horrific overuse in the 2000 election.
I am afraid ‘nuance’ is becoming the new gravitas this election.
IXLNXS
Who was that famous poster boy football player that turned his back on a fortune to step in front of a bullet in Afghanistan again?
You know the one everyone on the right was heralding as the poster boy for all thats right with God until his brother came out and said he was an atheist?
Remember? Not long after that statement he was forgotten by the right wing masses as pariah for not exemplifying their agenda?
I can’t believe how people try and blame others for using the dead for their own personal gain when they did the same espousing their own political agenda. Maybe remember that the next time you write some long winded piece praising the heroic deaths of Americans for your own web page hits and gain.
Don’t take this too personally since it’s the same ration of crap I’ve layed onmyself a hundred times or more. It’s just that it shouldn’t be taboo for one side when it’s fine for the other.
SDN
Ixie-boy, Pat Tillman was worth a million of you. Now go look up the term “projection” and STFU.
RW
****Not long after that statement he was forgotten by…****
You’re kidding, right?
Just because you read eschaton, don’t think that everyone does.
Terry
Since when did an old Stalinist like Max honor Americans, whether those serving in the military or otherwise?
Max
Slart — I’ve an aversion to trivia, like whether you could type a ‘th’ superscript in 1973. Here’s a fact for you: Bush could have gone to Vietnam if he had tried, but didn’t; Kerry could have avoided going, but didn’t. So Bush was hypocritical at the time and dishonest in retrospect. Go ahead and spin that one.
Terry — If I’m a Stalinist, you’re a Nazi. Name-calling is easy, isn’t it?
Matt
Max, buy a vowel, man. Kerry tried to avoid service but was rejected for deferments. He got posted to a ship off the coast of Vietnam and ultimately volunteered for the Swift Boats (before Swift Boats were reassigned to going up the Delta. Bush flew jets and could have died as well.
Kerry tried to stay out of combat, then got OUT of combat as fast as possible.
Don’t go painting this heroic picture of Kerry when it’s obvious neither of them wanted to be in Vietnam. It makes you look dishonest.
RW
I hereby concede that John Kerry is the winner in the “who did best when it comes to Vietnam” sweepstakes.
Too bad for him Bush is going to win the Presidential sweepstakes.
When history recounts the year of 2004, I wonder if it’ll actually grasp the zest with which the Kerry supporters pushed Vietnam, while Bush stressed terrorism & security?
Max
More invention. I didn’t say he was a hero. Never have. I suspect — but can’t prove, since I don’t read minds, unlike many of my compatriots — his serving was out of some political calculation. Sometimes people have questionable motives that cause them to do the right thing.
There are little facts, and big facts. The big one is that he went and GB didn’t. It’s not that important, but it’s true.
Dean
Max:
What is this hypocrisy of which you speak? Did George Bush support the Vietnam War at the time? Is there evidence of this?
Or are you suggesting that people who could go to Vietnam but didn’t are hypocrits? Is Jim McDermott, who was in the military but never left CONUS, also a hypocrit, for not serving in Vietnam? Did John Edwards, who was the right age to serve in Vietnam, but didn’t, somehow a hypocrit?
Or are you saying that those who believe in a war policy now, but didn’t serve in Vietnam, are somehow hypocrits? In which case, I have to ask if Bill Clinton, who used the US Armed Forces more than any previous President in sheer number of applications, was a hypocrit, too? Bill, after all, supports the President (iirc). I’ll leave aside the fact that John Kerry, at one point, voted in favor of war as well.
And what happens when the Vietnam Generation passes from the scene? Will there be any hypocrits left, at that point? Will only those who served in Grenada somehow have the right to run for President?
Matt
Max, you say that Kerry “COULD HAVE AVOIDED GOING, BUT DIDN’T…”
That’s bull. He TRIED to avoid going, COULDN’T and then signed up for duty that was safe (at the time).
Where’s the INVENTION in that? It seems, by your statements, the invention lies in your court.
Max
I thought Bush’s support for the war was common knowledge. I don’t have to prove that one.
I’m saying those who supported the war at the time and were of age to serve and contrived to avoid service were hypocrites. That would apply to Edwards as well, assuming he was of age. I don’t think anyone serving has an obligation to seek out combat, no matter what they think of the war.
As for those supporting the war now who didn’t serve then, I wouldn’t call that hypocrisy, though I do think it should provoke some pangs of reflection.
I have no brief for Clinton. Never have. You’ve got the wrong guy on that one.
No you don’t have to serve to be in office. I’ve never said that either. I just think if you actively avoided service and rant about anti-war dissent as treason, you should STFU.
Anyone who didn’t want to go to Vietnam could find ways to avoid it. Anyone who did go chose not to avail themselves of those resorts. That’s the dull power in the simple, unavoidable fact that Kerry was There, and Bush was not.
Slartibartfast
“Kerry could have avoided going, but didn’t.”
No. More accurately, he tried to avoid going, but FAILED. Even a guy dedicated to avoiding trivia can see there’s a wee bit of difference between the two.
Points to Kerry for having done time in theater, regardless of how he got there. I just don’t choose to apply a deduction for Bush because he didn’t serve in Vietnam.
Not that this is relevant, but I had a good friend over last night who served in Vietnam for a total of about five years, as a signals guy. He’s pretty disgusted with all of the shit flying in both directions as regards Vietnam war service, and I quite agree with him.
Badm
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Harsh Words. Too Bad Your President Sucks.
So John Cole is in the namecalling business. He calls this post of mine an “exploitation of grief”. The life of that man’s son is now g
Interesting Questions
I found this post tonight while reading Oliver… The two posts are basically just Oliver and John Cole insulting each other, as seems to be more often the case these days when Left and Right argue over a political point….