If you want to know why I detest the Democratic party and John Kerry, you need look no farther than this demagogic statement today from the Sneator from Massachussetts:
“But when you have a president who refuses to listen to the facts, who wants to play to the cheap seats, who wants to go down to the politics of division and the politics of ideology, who dismisses scientists and turns his back on science
Ivor the Engine Driver
If you want to know why most folks think you’re a complete partisan moron, read your outrage over Kerry’s 100 percent accurate statement about the Chimp-in-Cief.
Noel
“Science” could put a chemical weapons lab in every home. Or give us home-cloning kits. Does Kerry support “Science”?
willyb
Everything in context, Ivor. Are you saying that the masterdebater-from-massachusetts, aka John Kerry, has ever done anything to advance the cause of stem cell research? Are you saying that John’s comment…
“Kerry has done nothing to date regarding stem cell research, except upon deciding it might be an avenue to attack Kerry.”
is wromg?
S-Train
John, they all do it. Stem cell research is ONE THING. If you look at our Presidents as a whole, Democratic and Republican, science is only a commodity to be used for advantage in elections and other partisan issues. The researchers do their thing REGARDLESS of who’s President. They should be applauded.
JPS
If I had no other reason to vote against Kerry, that plan to deal with Iran would be a deal-breaker. That they still think there’s any doubt worth exploring of Iran’s intentions means in itself that they can’t be trusted with the car keys.
Ivor: Do you have anything substantive to say, ever? Why read and comment on a site by someone you disdain?
S-Train: “The researchers do their thing REGARDLESS of who’s President.” True enough. On the other hand, scientists also tend to bitch about funding (sometimes with good reason) regardless of who’s President, and to expect the taxpayers to keep their mouths shut and their checkbook open.
dwight meredith
Er.., John, stem cell research has been possible under how many presidents? In other news, Lincoln never supported space exploration.
John Cole
Understood, Dwight, but Bush’s action has made stem cell reseqarch much easier than when it was BANNED by Bill clinton.
pleasewakeupy'all
Wilyb-
“Kerry has done nothing to date regarding stem cell research, except upon deciding it might be an avenue to attack Kerry.
is wromg?
Well yes it is wrong–I’m sure he meant to say “to attack Bush.”
At least pay attention enough to edit properly.
As for the rest of it, I’d suggest you righties leave this battlefield alone as Bush is doing– he knows he can’t fight on this issue because his record (or lack of one) is indefensible and he can’t risk alienating the religious right. Just move on to tax cuts or something.
triticale
I would prefer that embryonic stem cell research be paid for out of venture capital or drug company profits, but I think it is going a bit far to say that the millions of taxpayer dollars Bush has spent funding it is “indefensible”.
Gary Farber
“Sneator”? Is this a typo, or are you twelve?
“A.) Bush has done more for stem cell research than any other President.”
Technologically, is this an accomplishment over Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Clinton, or Bush’s father”, or meaningless?
I apologize if this post is made in a bad mood; it is, and I’m sorry.
Anyway about it, isn’t this a pointless and meaningless claim?
(IF you feel like saying something nice about someone I care about, check out my page; thanks.)
willyb
Ivor:
I thought what I was asking was clear. Let me be more direct. “Has the masterdebater from massachusetts done anything to further stem cell research? If not, then I assume the thrust of John’s comments are correct and that you are the complete partisan moron.
S.W. Anderson
Trying to be positive here: Maybe it’s better to shine one little light than curse your self-imposed darkness. So, Mr. Cole . . .
If you’ll go to the appropriate page at Kerry’s Web site, you’ll find exactly what he believes in regarding stem-cell research. Here’s a teaser:
“Continuing in our nation’s great ethic of discovery, John Kerry and John Edwards believe that stem cell research holds immense promise for curing or treating these diseases and medical conditions. They will lift the ideologically-driven restrictions on stem cell research that are impeding progress toward cures for millions of Americans suffering from debilitating diseases.”
Spending some time at Kerry’s Web site could help you understand what Kerry believes in about a whole range of subjects. Examining his record of public service with chip removed from shoulder, jaundiced eye closed and mind opened could get you most of the way there.
Are you up to the challenge?
Roundguy
SW,
I am. You can’t seem to read past the hyperbole. In real world terms he’s going to what? The only thing left that the president opposes, as do a lot of other people, is taking one life in the outside chance that it might, might do some good. Most scientists have publicly stated that stem cell research shows some, underline some, promise. But it holds little hope for most diseases. If you knew a baby was killed so you could live a fuller life would you. Liberals talk the talk but when it comes to selfishness they know no bounds.
Have I read Kerry’s site. Sure. Have you read George Bush’ site?
Mr. Kerry has a plan for everything. This plan only has one limitation. And, it only applies to federal funding, and, he’s (Bush) the first to federally fund it.There are enough stem cell lines in existence now for decades of research on the federally funded level, plus there is no, zero, nada ban on private research. They can kill all the embryos they want.
His record of public service is a total joke. Kerry’s only business experience wouldn’t qualify him for management of a Taco Bell. In 20 years, that’s two zero years, he has introduced 8 pieces of legislation. Five were for honorable mention. His attendance is abysmal in the Senate. Frankly I would like to read about this wonderful public service record of his. I just can’t seem to find it.
Have you read Kerry’s National Service Plan? It was on his website till he was challenged on it by us righties. Everyone would devote two years of their life to public service, including the elderly to help pay for their prescriptions. You know, kinda like socialism?
China, Iran , France and Germany have all called his cards over his wacked out assertions and lame ideology.
One thing the right will never have in common with the left is faith. I have faith in God, the Bible and his son Jesus Christ. All others are fact checked, including President Bush. The fact is though, Mr. Bush checks out with the facts. Not your press buddies or the DNC but with the truth. Something liberals don’t seem to want say exists.
ape
“Bush has done more for stem cell research than any other President.”
Yes. he’s also done more on 9/11 than any other president. in this case, the clue as to why is in the phrase ‘9/11’. He has responded to a contemporary state of affairs. in practially every case, as stem cell research, his responses have been dumb; ie flawed in principle.
without creationists and people who imagine both that AWOL goes to church & reads the bible regularly and that this is an essential positive quality for a president, AWOL would not get elected.
these are people of great faith.
pleasewakeupy'all
“One thing the right will never have in common with the left is faith.”
Wow. Faithless heathens–all of them. Not a single REAL Christian amongst them, right?
ape
the most astonishingly example of faith from the right is not in Christ, it is in characters like twice-divorced proven liar drug addict limbaugh; or drunk driving AWOL optional-war loving Bush.
that’s faith.
Brennan
Stem cell research was barely around before Bush, so its not surprising that even a little federal funding is the most that had ever been allocated. But Bush severely limited the amount of research that could be done by scientists.
Furthermore, he limited it to existing lines and claimed that there were a lot more available stem cell lines than his own scientists were telling him.
Steverino
Furthermore, he limited it to existing lines and claimed that there were a lot more available stem cell lines than his own scientists were telling him.
Not quite true. There are no restrictions on research, only on government funding of that research.
Adult stem cell research is funded in part by the government, with no restrictions. Government funding for embryonic stem cell research is limited to those lines existing at the time the order was made.
In any case, adult stem cells seem to be where the results will come from. There are therapies being created right now from adult stem cell research. There are no such therapies from embryonic stem cell research, and no idea when a therapy will come. Most of the private money invested in stem cell research is coming in on the side of adult stem cells, which should tell you that it’s the more promising path.
Jane
Woo-hoo from the cheep seats.
John Cole
Gary-
Do you really expect a response to a snide remark regarding a typo?
jeff
Yeah, really. Farber is kinda pompous considering that you once stuck up for him when certain commenters were getting personal with him.
Disagreeing is fine, but being a dick is kind of uncalled for.
willyb
ape:
What do your comments have to do with the lies of John Kerry? You can’t defend John Kerry’s record, so you launch ad hominem attacks on his opponent. Your comments are pathetic.
ape
willyb: Bush is the President. therefore, he has the record and has to run on it. that’s the point.
instead, the tactic is to call the opponent a liar, a flipper, a paedophile or a spy (all tactics Rove has used). (Incidentally, that’s the kind of thing that’s usually described by the latin phrase you use).
bush chose an optional war. he planned it years in advance, deceived people about the reason, and announced it was finished a few thousand deaths ago. that’s his record.
my comments on ‘faith’ were in response to another post in which a theocrat didtinguished left and right on faith grounds. he should understand that he’s being led up the garden path on that issue. i saw a woman on the news, “im voting for bush cos he reads the bible”. yes, he said he did, everyday. but there’s no reason whatsoever to think this true (even if it were a valid criterion).
pleasewakeupy'all
“instead, the tactic is to call the opponent a liar, a flipper, a paedophile or a spy (all tactics Rove has used).”
Yep, all a matter of record. Makes you wonder how folks allow an ends-justify-the-means mentality to trump their sense of decency.
willyb
ape:
Again I see no defense of John Kerry’s record?
Do you have something to support that Bush was AWOL? Do you have something to support that Bush planned to invade Iraq for years in advance? If you don’t, your statements are nothing more than as hominem attacks.
I don’t hear the administration, including Karl Rove, saying any of the things you have noted. I hear Kerry partisans saying and writing that this is happening. I do see Republican ads pointing out how John Kerry has apparently changed his position on the war in Iraq on numerous occasions.
Can you defend John Kerry’s record on stem cell research? Has John Kerry been active in advancing this issue, or is he simply demogoguing this issue?
pleasewakeupy'all
wilyb,
This link summarizes the Rove tactics. Of course you’re bound to dismiss it as coming from “Kerry partisans”–fair enough, but read the Atlantic Monthly article and tell me it isn’t well researched and accurate.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_09_26.php#003523
The following link deconstucts the GOP ad you mentioned and puts into plain English all the nonsense regarding the “flip-flop” tag Rove has crafted for your incurious consumption.
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=269
Kerry’s record is his record, and it’s honorable and extensive–you just don’t agree with his politics, which is of course fine. Just don’t pretend that the current politics of the right is anything short of shameful.
willyb
pleasewakeupy’all:
From the talkingpointsmemo link:
“An article out this week in The Atlantic Monthly focuses specifically on a series of races Rove ran in Texas and Alabama in the 1990s.”
ASSUMING that Rove actually did these things, how does what happened in the 1990s in Texas translate to the current time and John Kerry?
As far as John Kerry’s comments on the Iraq war, I read the deconstructed comments at factcheck.org. While this site goes a long way in clarifying his comments, i.e., puts them in context, they don’t change the substance of what John Kerry said. While it might give you some comfort in John Kerry’s consistency, it gives me very little. Saying he took us to war in the wrong way, that we should have given diplomacy more time, that “if we had done this with a sufficient number of troops, if we had done this in a globalized way, if we had brought more people to the table,” is all code for getting the UN’s stamp of approval.
John Kerry seems to be protesting the tactics of removing Saddam Hussein as a threat, but not the strategy of removing Saddam Hussein as a threat. This nuancing may work for you, but it doesn’t work for me. Especially after what I’m learning about the members of the UN that held up global agreement on removing Saddam Hussein, and their involvment in the the Oil for Food Scandal.
Bottom line, France and Russia were working with Saddam Hussein against the interests of the Iraqi people, and they apparently made billions in illegal kickbacks for their trouble. And our “able” diplomats at the UN stood by watching as they collected billions in administrative fees. And we are supposed to wait for these third world crooks to approve of our actions to defend against a perceived threat to our country? This is exactly why I would not trust John Kerry to protect this nation.
jeff
I love all this talk from the left about “decency” in campaign advertising.
They didn’t care too much about decency when the NAACP was comparing Bush not signing a stupid and unnecessary hate-crimes bill to a lynching, and they weren’t complaining about decency when the NAACP said voting Republican is seeing to it that another black church burned.
They didn’t care about decency when Ted Kennedy said that confirming Robert Bork would have blacks eating at separate lunch counters.
willyb,
Your patience and politeness and level-headedness while debating these fucking idiots is admirable, but you’re debating with morons who think that Karl Rove invented the negative campaign.
I applaud your perseverance, because i just say fuck the friggin hypocrites.
pleasewakeupy'all
wilyb,
“ASSUMING that Rove actually did these things, how does what happened in the 1990s in Texas translate to the current time and John Kerry?”
It doesn’t really, just backround on what I consider the deplorable conditions of current political discourse.
You’re skepticism of the UN is healthy, and your criticism of it well reasoned. I just believe that we need to somehow find a way to lead the world, not bully it. The goal to spread freedom, prosperity, and democracy throughout the world can best be accomplished with multilateral diplomacy, not unilateral dictum.
Thanks for the well-reasoned post, but I guess we disagree. That’s what the polls are for.
Ain’t America great?
pleasewakeupy'all
jeff,
Yes, despicable examples all–I never said it was one-sided, just that Rove is perfecting it and the ends-justify-the-means folks have turned a blind eye to it.
Have you considered anger management counseling?
willyb
pleasewakeupy’all:
“The goal to spread freedom, prosperity, and democracy throughout the world can best be accomplished with multilateral diplomacy, not unilateral dictum.”
Fair enough, but in the absence of honest “allies” that are prepared to act, the U.S. must be prepared to take on threats to its security with the honest allies that are prepared to act. That is not unilateral dictum unless we go it alone. That is simply smart multilateralism.
S.W. Anderson
willyb wrote: “ASSUMING that Rove actually did these things, how does what happened in the 1990s in Texas translate to the current time and John Kerry?”
Let’s say you were to find yourself locked into a very small cell with a very large felon, “Bubba,” who started telling you he thinks you’re cute. And let’s say someone in the next cell passes along intelligence that Bubba’s curriculim vitae includes two convictions for sexual assault against cellmates he had back in the ’90s.
How soundly would you sleep?
Yeah, yeah, past performance is not predictive of future earnings and all that. I repeat, how soundly would you sleep?
S.W. Anderson
I don’t claim to be an expert on this, but as I understand it, embryos that would be used for embryonic stem cell research are destined for destruction in any case.
Secondly, I do know that in nature, going back for as far as we know, human sperm, eggs, embryos, zygotes and fetuses get expelled, even without any deliberate attempt by anyone to make that happen. In the case of zygotes and fetuses, there is a strong coincidence of abnormality with these expulsions.
The point is that there’s a rational case to be made that these elements of reproduction aren’t precious as human lives, in and of themselves. We humans, especially Americans, are very individual-centric. So some find it fitting to invest preciousness as separate lives to them, but that’s not necessarily the way of God or nature, as your beliefs hold. God or nature seem to be more race- and species-centric, and jettisoning the imperfect is one means of protecting the species.
That being the case, the use of embryos already destined to be discarded for research need not mean mankind has signed on for a toboggan-ride to hell for having cast off all respect for the sanctity of life.
One more thing. Make no mistake, I don’t take likely the potential for evil doings in messing with the building blocks of life. I want oversight, disclosure and review — especially where corporate interests are concerned.
S.W. Anderson
Drat. The last sentence in my previous flash of brilliance should read:
One more thing. Make no mistake, I don’t take lightly the potential for evil doings in messing with the building blocks of life. I want oversight, disclosure and review — especially where corporate interests are concerned.
S.W. Anderson
Arguing that Kerry has no business taking a position in favor of federal funding for research that involves opening up additional lines for embryonic stem cell research because he hasn’t made this relatively new bio-tech pursuit his pet hobby or life’s work going back years is simple-minded nonsense.
One reason we have more than one party and people vying for elective office is because people have differing views about all kinds of things. Disagree with Kerry’s position, if that’s your preference, but get off your radical-right high horse, trying to invalidate him or his taking a position on it.
a friendly Canadian
Hey.
Well… I can’t say that I really know what’s going on… Much like some Canadians I know, you guys don’t seem to vote for people or politics you agree with, you choose whether you’re a democrat or a republican and then vote for whichever muttonhead they place on the ballot.
Now… somewhere on here there are supposed to be some lies that John Cole says Kerry told. I’m willing to believe that John Kerry has told some lies, c’mon – he’s the democratic leader, you don’t get there with honesty and smiles.
On the other hand, I’m still waiting for those weapons of mass destruction Bush had proof of, what, three years ago? I’m still waiting for the connection between Iraq and Sept. 11, even though Bush himself had more to do with it that Saddam. In fact, I’m still waiting for an actual recount of Florida which Bush stole.
The point is, Bush is a liar, and if John Cole is right, so is Kerry.
So… OBVIOUSLY, we’re going to vote Bush because of his Stem Cell Research!?
Rest assured that if Bush was the leader of any other country in the world, USA would have entered two years ago to remove him and his illegal administration from power, imprison them and torture them for “information”.
However, no one can hold them accountable except YOU, the people of America. The rest of us – WorldWide – are suffering for his stupidity, but there’s nothing we can do because you have a big ol’ army and a corporate-economic empire.
Simply put, either vote Bush out, or fail yourselves and the rest of the world.
Thank you for your time.
hello
I had NO IDEA that stem research covered the entire Science spectrum. I am dumb dounded and appalled and embarrased that I did not know that All that science covers is stem cell research… Just apalled.
CowKitty
Oh my, you get some real idiots for visitors.
Anyway, several have mentioned Kerry’s proposed policy for Iran. What about his “global test” policy and his Unilateral talks with Korea? He doesn’t recall Madam Albright’s previous visits and unilateral talks?
Face it – every plan Kerry has involves a summit – let’s sit down and waste a lot of time trying to get everyone to agree on what the USA should do. I think not! We’ve done that with the UN and it’s a total waste of time and money.
BTW,when Kerry and Edwards want to start shouting about all the money spent in Iraq, why aren’t they concerned with the UN and the Food for Oil scam?