Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
by John Cole| 44 Comments
This post is in: Democratic Stupidity
Just pretend for a second that John Kerry’s daughter was a lesbian, and during the waning weeks of the campaign, both Bush and Cheney had taken every opportunity to bring this up, including during a debate.
What would be the reaction of the Democrats and the left?
Just curious.
*** Update ***
Elizabeth Edwards, Bitch:
“She’s overreacted to this and treated it as if it’s shameful to have this discussion. I think that’s a very sad state of affairs
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Lynne Cheney Says Mention of Daughter a Cheap Trick
Mention of Gay Daughter a Cheap Trick, Lynne Cheney Says (WaPo)
Lynne V. Cheney, wife of Vice President Cheney, accused John F. Kerry on Wednesday night of “a cheap and tawdry political trick” and said he “is not a good man” after he brought up …
I’m sure you’re wondering…
…what my opinion is of Kerry’s using Mary Cheney in last debate. In order: 1. Kerry’s remark: It really didn’t bother me too much. I thought it was pretty crass to use his opponent’s child like that, but crassness seems to be par for the course in th…
Ricky
We know the reaction. Just look at how they reacted to a picture of Willie Horton.
Now, they have their own Willie Horton issue & they’re unaccustomed to playing defense on the matter. Watch ’em squirm.
Terry
No. They’ll, in effect, rehabilitate Andrew Sullivan’s creds on the Left by citing his laudatory praise of Kerry’s bringing it up in the debate. Sullivan has truly become a disgusting piece of excrement.
Gregory Litchfield
It’s astounding how far Sullivan has fallen in so short a time. As recently as a couple of months ago he was still insightful, original and truly an independent thinker.
Now he’s become a shill for Kerry, and defends the man when he (Kerry) gratuitously mentions Mary Cheney’s sexual orientation in an baldfaced ploy to scare away the more socially conservative members of Bush’s base. Why does Sully think this is ok? Because Bush has, “tried to make gay people invisible, to avoid any mention of us, to pretend we don’t exist.”
No he didn’t, Andy. He prevented the gay community from using the courts to force communities to recognize a supposed right to gay marriage. A right which doesn’t exist for anyone, regardless of sexual orientation.
I really don’t give a damn about gay marriage on way or another. I’d be pretty cool with it, if the decision was made by state legislatures. Sullivan’s a damn hypocrite who apparently believes that expediency trumps all. This belief seems widespread among the left.
Lastly, does anyone else suspect that this is going to backfire on Kedwards big time? Just think of all those male voters, age 18-25, who will be secretly turned on by the notion that the Republicans have sapphic daughters.
Heh.
Norah
What did Kerry say about Mary Cheney? She’s a lesbian? How horrible. Now EVERYBODY knows, and whatever will Lynne tell the neighbors?
Coome on, guys. “Lesbian” is not an insult. Would anybody here be insulted if someone made reference to your heterosexuality?
Didn’t think so.
Gregory Litchfield
I just went over to Oliver’s site to see if he mentioned the “You have a lesbo daughter!” flap. Demonstrating his ususal aptitude for originality, he reprints portions of Sullivan’s remarks and adds what essentially amounts to, “Yup.”
Funny to see how in the eyes of the blogosphere left, Sullivan has moved from being a crazed, overly emotional shill for the administration and a traitor to gays everywhere, to a voice of reason.
jeff
But Gregory, remember that Oliver actually believes his boss’s (David Brock) bullshit that he only lied when he was a conservative and that once he saw the light and went over to the other side, he’s been telling the truth ever since.
norbizness
Do the words “selfish hedonist” as applied to Mary Cheney ring a bell with anyone?
As for this deranged liberal, Sullivan squandered too much capital back in the day to be considered anything more than an annoying embarrassment, whatever side he decides to take.
jeff
they ring a bell with me and Keyes was widely lambasted as an idiot and a kook (well, actually, most people were already calling him that, it just made him a bigger idiot and kook).
A fringe (albeit major party) candidate for Senate who is gonna get around 15% of the vote, isn’t quite the same as candidates for Pres and VP (and I’m not saying that Kerry and Edwards singling her out, pathetic as it might be, is comparable to what Keyes said).
Oliver
How dare John Kerry state the fact that Mary Cheney is a lesbian. I also heard him say that water is wet. The bastard!
Gregory Litchfield
Alan Keyes is to the Republican party what Jim “It’s all the fault of the Jooos!” Moran is to the Democrats. He’s been effectivly marginalized, and no-one takes him seriously anymore. Once he’s done going down in flames the national party will Buchananize the guy and eliminate him from the entire program.
It’s a shame to see him like this. I had dinner with him in college, and he was witty, intelligent and charming. A bit kooky, but nothing like he is today. I find him repellent now, as does about 90% of the party, I’d suspect.
Gary Farber
“What the hell does her sexual preference have to do with anything?”
Indeed, when the direct question is “is being gay a choice?,” what does whether or not it is a “preference” have to do with anything?
And it would have been a cheap, tawdry, trick to have noted that, say, either John Kerry or George Bush had a “heterosexual preference” or were heterosexual. Only a Bad Person could stoop so low.
Gregory Litchfield
Oliver, if you really are going to condone what effectively amounts to Kerry pointing at Bush and shouting, “Your minion’s daughter is fag!”, then there’s no hope for you.
The question was whether or not homosexuality is genetic. I don’t see how the sexual orientaton of Mary Cheney is germane to that discussion.
Gregory Litchfield
Gary: Again, if the question was regarding the nature of homosexuality, why was Mary Cheney brought up? If Kerry wanted to give a well-known example of an uncloseted homosexual, there are plenty of people to chose from who are of much greater stature and reknown than Mary Cheney.
He chose her for a reason, and that reason is pretty vile. I also suspect it won’t work. The churchgoing Republicans I know, and since I’m from the PJ O’Rourke wing of the party that number is admittedly few, are more upset that Kerry would intrude into the private lives of the Cheneys than by the sexual orientation of their daughter. Dean Esmay made the same point today, if you’d like to read someone who can articulate it in a better fashion than I can.
norbizness
OK, stage two of the rhetorical question: did Lynne Cheney publicly condemn Alan Keyes (a person Jeff describes as a kook with no chance of winning) for saying negative things about her daughter, as she has publicly condemned Kerry for just mentioning her name in a neutral-to-postive way? Couldn’t it be a logical extension of the discussion her father was having about it in the VP debates?
Further, has she said anything about Tom Coburn (a person I describe as a kook with a slim chance of winning) and his apocalyptic plague of rampant teenage lesbianism?
norbizness
P.S. Elizabeth Edwards is way out of line.
Gregory Litchfield
Norbizness: Two can play at that rhetorical game. Did Kerry condemn Moran and McKinney when they both, in their own, special ways, blamed the Jews for the War in Iraq? Perhaps he did, but I haven’t heard of it.
Should he have to? No, in my opinion. Reasonable people will know a kook when they see one, and I don’t see why any particular candidate has a responsibility to react to every utterance by every troglodtye that is hidden in that party’s wings.
Kimmitt
Live by homophobia, die by homophobia.
mkultra
After the VP debate, Mary Cheney got on the stage with her partner in front of a national television audience.
Tell you what, if you don’t want to get mentioned during the debates, then stay the hell of the stage during the debates. And if you don’t want someone to mention that you are a lesbian, then don’t get on the stage ON NATIONAL TELEVISION with your girlfriend. Got it? Good.
norbizness
The more evolved part of my brain says I should stop beating this dead horse, but I tend to ignore it.
The difference, so far as I can see, is that Keyes personally, specifically attacked her daughter– not generally attacked a group her daughter is in (Coburn), or a group her daughter isn’t in (your analogy). If I remember correctly, she was primarily outraged ‘as a parent’ today. Well…?
adk46er
What is the fascination both Kerry and Edwards have regarding Mary Cheney? Is she the only gay person they know? You have to be pretty naive or an extreme partisan to believe her name was just randomly chosen. More to the point Kerry responding to the question by saying: “if you asked Mary Cheney” makes no sense. He obviously doesn’t hang out with her and therefore has never asked her anything, let alone something this personal.
steve talbert
Mary has been “out” since at least the 2000 and 2002 elections specifically telling people that her being gay was going to be a positive thing for voting for the Bush-Cheney Admin. Mary is over 21 years old. All the other daughters get talked about.
Even over a month ago, Cheney brought her up as being gay in a speach he gave as an example.
However, unless Mary herself said “yes that is true”, how does Kerry and her Dad know for a fact that Mary’s sexual relations with women are by choice or not? Maybe she is really a closet bisexual and only tells people she is gay.
In that case, maybe it would be valuable to issue a statement saying that “although being 100% straight or gay is not a choice, there is an underrepresented bisexual community in our country that suffers strong prejudice from people who are not, and the use of Mary Cheney as an example of a 100% gay person without her confirmation that she is shows the lack of respect for this seemingly substantial number of citizens.”
Gary Farber
“…are more upset that Kerry would intrude into the private lives of the Cheneys….”
But Mary Cheney’s being gay is not the slightest bit more “private” than Lynne and Richard Cheney’s heterosexuality. She’s made tv commercials about being gay; her job has been as outreach director to the gay community. There is nothing remotely, conceivably, possibly, “private” about this, nore any reason why there should be, nor the faintest reason anyone should give a damn whether anyone mentions that Vice-President Cheney is heterosexual. Or that Mary Cheney is gay.
These are as offensive and intrusive and “vile,” as discussing who is right-handed and who is left-handed.
Incidentally, if the Presidential candidates were to get into a nuanced discussion of the Kinsey scale, of the various points along the sexual continuum, and such, that would be quite interesting, but I don’t precisely suggest waiting for this to happen.
HH
“How dare John Kerry state the fact that Mary Cheney is a lesbian.”
Yep, she’s “fair game,” said Mary Beth Cahill. That lesbo is going down! Then Kerry tells us he was saying something positive… yeah I say a lot of positive things in that tone about my opponent’s kids, so I can score political points.
HH
“nor the faintest reason anyone should give a damn whether anyone mentions that Vice-President Cheney is heterosexual. Or that Mary Cheney is gay.”
No one should give a damn because Cheney is not for the FMA. But Kerry does, in a debate with Bush. Gephardt’s daughter is gay and he’s stood up against DOMA… oh wait he didn’t.
But that’s different – right?
Al Maviva
It’s called gay-baiting.
Kerry’s here,
he thinks you’re a huge homophobe and thinks you will vote against Bush because Mary’s queer,
get used to it.
ape
“George Bush is a Texan. From Texas. If you want to know how a Texan feels about being from Texas, why not ask him as a public figure who is quite matter of fact about being from Texas and quite often talks about it.”
Anything wrong with that statement?
Ricky
If bringing up the opponent’s daughter’s sexuality during a nationally televised debate is no big deal, why was showing a picture of a convicted felon who raped & killed during his furlough an act of race-baiting?
Gary?
Norah?
Oliver?
ape
Felon: associating one of the candidates with a bad thing (ie; raping & killing or whatever).
Daughter: No bad thing referred to. No candidate associated with such a thing. Rather, answering question during presidential debate (just like Bush didn’t) using example of well-known public figure.
OK?
Ricky
The question pertained to race baiting.
Sorry, not OK.
Anyone besides ape, who thought the Willie Horton ad was wrong because it associated a ‘felony’ with Dukakis?
Ricky
BTW, you get bonus points for trying to pass along the notion that Mary Cheney was a well-known public figure, ape.
That was pretty funny.
ape
Apologies Ricky!
I assumed that there was a connection between the two halves of what appeared to be a single question:
“If bringing up the opponent’s daughter’s sexuality during a nationally televised debate is no big deal”
and
“why was showing a picture of a convicted felon who raped & killed during his furlough an act of race-baiting?”
I probably made a mistake because of the way you used grammar and words; in particular ‘why..’ and ‘..if’.
As you’re in fact intrigued by the historical question of why “..showing a picture of a convicted felon who raped & killed during his furlough.. (was) ..an act of race-baiting..”; then my post made no sense.
In my stupidity, I thought you brought up Willie Horton as an example of negative campaigning, and compared it to Kerry’s having referred to Ms. Cheney. I then noted that this was neither negative in the slightest degree nor campaigning in the same way.
Phew! Complex. But I think we worked it out.
Mithras
[Keyes has] been effectivly marginalized, and no-one takes him seriously anymore.
Really? That’s strange, I thought he was the Republican party’s candidate for U.S. Senator from Illinois. Either he’s marginalized, or he’s the party’s current pick (he was not nominated by the voters). He can’t be both.
ape
Regarding J Cole on Ms Cheney’s ‘preference’: “The only people making anything of it are Democrats.”
see White House transcripts of the Vice President’s addresses; eg:
24 August 2004. Radisson Quad City Plaza. Davenport, Iowa. 11:45 A.M. CDT
Q We have a battle here on this land, as well. And I would like to know, sir, from your heart — I don’t want to know what your advisors say, or even what your top advisor thinks — but I need to know what do you think about homosexual marriages.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, the question has come up obviously in the past with respect to the question of gay marriage. Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it’s an issue that our family is very familiar with. We have two daughters, and we have enormous pride in both of them. They’re both fine young women. They do a superb job, frankly, of supporting us. And we are blessed with both our daughters.
With respect to the question of relationships, my general view is that freedom means freedom for everyone. People ought to be able to free — ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to. The question that comes up with respect to the issue of marriage is what kind of official sanction, or approval is going to be granted by government, if you will, to particular relationships. Historically, that’s been a relationship that has been handled by the states. The states have made that basic fundamental decision in terms of defining what constitutes a marriage. I made clear four years ago when I ran and this question came up in the debate I had with Joe Lieberman that my view was that that’s appropriately a matter for the states to decide, that that’s how it ought to best be handled.
The example had already been used; John Kerry affirmed the thrust of what the VP had said.
Re Ricky: “trying to pass along the notion that Mary Cheney was a well-known public figure, ape. That was pretty funny”
see J. Cole, “Mary Cheney has been publicly campaigning with her father for 4 years” for which, eg, her appearance at recent televised debate.
Ricky
Nope, we have been told by the left (and Sullivan) for 16 years that showing a pic of Horton was race-baiting.
I think we’re now on the same plane as to where the question came from.
And no, Mary Cheney wasn’t famous (well, she is now). :)
timekeeper
Why Mary Cheney, instead of Chrissy Gephardt, or Barney Frank, or any of the many other openly gay Democrats around the country?
She was chosen SPECIFICALLY because the Kerry campaign thought she could be used as a weapon against the Bush campaign.
The first time she was brought up, I was not too upset. But the second time, the way that Kerry clumsily segued into bringing her into the discussion, it was obvious that it was a new ploy against Cheney. It’s too bad that most of the gay rights groups are so totally bought and paid for by the Dems, because they should be all over the Kerry campaign for using gay rights as a wedge issue.
apostropher
Ricky, of all the pinheaded arguments I’ve heard you make, this one takes the cake.
1. If you elect Dukakis, this guy (flash picture) will come rape and kill you.
2. Dick Cheney’s daughter is gay because God made her that way and we should respect her for that.
Yes, I can see how the two are equivalent. Really, did you even read the actual quote?
Huck
I made this point on another post, but I guess I have to keep repeating myself. Leave aside your feelings on homosexuality. Leave aside whatever the Kerry’s campaign’s motives for bringing it up were (To keep anti-gay bigots at home and not voting for Bush, to appeal to anti-gay bigots, to reassure socially conservative blacks and Hispanics that Democrats aren’t really “gay-friendly”, etc..whatever the motive). YOU DON’T GRATUTISOUSLY MENTION THE OTHER SIDE’S KIDS FOR POLITICAL GAIN! That’s the fucking point. Why can’t Kerry supporters see that??? It doesn’t matter that the GOP has been gay-baiting, or the Cheneys are hypocrites. Kids aren’t fair game. PERIOD! It doesn’t matter that she’s “out” or that she helps w/ Dick Cheney’s campaign. Kerry could have mentioned any gay person in the entire world in response to the question (or better yet, why name anyone?.) But he chose Mary Cheney. Why??? It was tacky. No, it’s not the huge outrage some conservatives are making it, but it was fucking low-class. And with the election as close as it is, it may cost Kerry the election. Why can’t Kerry supporters admit it was a mistake? (See the polls about how the public feels about this!) Apologize and move on. You’re just wrong on this. Yelling about the GOP being homophobes doesn’t change the fact that it was wrong.
Ricky
apostropher, taking everything you said as the gospel…..again….what part of RACE BAITING from the Horton ad was supposed to be present? You guys keep answering “it was a rapist”. YES, but for the last 15 years we’ve been told it was a race-baiting ad.
I guess there IS no answer, eh?
Brian
If they are so accepting of her, why wasn’t she allowed on stage at the convention? I don’t think Mary’s parents hate her. That’s ridiculous. But Mrs. Edwards probably wasn’t so far off the mark, at least whenwhen talking about politics.
John Cole
Mary Cheny wasn’t at the convention by her own choosing because at the time of the convention, Alan Keyes had decided it was time to call all homosexuals ‘selfish hedonists’ or something.
Mary Cheney tries to stay out of the spotlight, and knew she would be the center of attention, so she CHOSE not to be there. This is rather well documented.
Ricky
She was on stage at the end of the veep debate…..with her partner.
Not exactly a place to hide people…..