Jack O’Toole takes me to task for this post in which I called Elizabeth Edwards a ‘bitch’ for her obnoxious and offensive comments:
I’ve made this point before, but I’m going to do so again this morning, if only for the purpose of calling John Cole to account for his use of an insulting and ungentlemanly term to describe Elizabeth Edwards.
For the record, John, Mary Cheney is not only an official employee of BC04, she’s also a former board member of the Republican Unity Coalition (a gay rights organization) and the one-time director of gay and lesbian outreach for the Coors Brewing Co. Moreover, according to the AP, she actively “helped the GOP recruit gay voters during the 2002 midterm elections.” In other words, complaining about her being described in public as a lesbian makes about as much sense as, say, objecting to Tom Brokaw’s being “outed” as an anchorman; her sexual identity is nothing less than an elemental part of who she is and what she does for a living. And branding Elizabeth Edwards a ‘bitch’ for pointing that out is simply unacceptable.
Except that is not why I called Elizabeth Edwards a bitch at all. Elizabeth Edwards was not merely pinting out that Mary Cheney is a lesbian- that is already well-dcoumented and in the public record. In fact, it is so well documented that both John Edwards and John Kerry felt it necessary to discuss in NATIONAL DEBATES.
What Mrs. Edwards said was far more obnoxious- she insinuated that Dick and Lynne Cheney are somehow ‘ashamed’ of their daughter and her sexual orientation:
I think that it indicates a certain degree of shame with respect to her daughter’s sexual preferences.
I stand by my statement, as Elizabeth Edwards’ statement was obnoxious, offensive, and, oh, by the way, way off the mark:
The vice president had broken with his earlier circumspection regarding Mary Cheney’s sexual orientation when he addressed the gay-marriage issue in a meeting with voters in August. Cheney said marriage should be a state issue, a rare disagreement with Bush administration policy.
“Lynne and I have a gay daughter, we have two daughters, and we have enormous pride in both of them,” Cheney said then.
Cheney reiterated his gay-marriage position in his vice presidential debate last week with Democratic Sen. John Edwards, who responded by saluting the Cheneys for a willingness to talk about their daughter and “embrace her.”
Cheney thanked Edwards for his “kind words,” but privately, Bush campaign officials were annoyed and considered the comment inappropriate.
Not only is Cheney on record as having stated his enormous pride in his daughter, but Elizabeth’s husband John ackowledged as much two weeks ago.
I suggest that Jack re-read Mrs. Edwards’ statement.
Also, I really can’t believe the Democrat reaction (or non-reaction) about this. If Republicans had done what Kerry and Edwards have done by frequently invoking the name of the vice-President’s daughter in debates, every democrat out there would be screaming that the Republicans are gay-baiting. Trying to assert that the Democratic response would have been different from what I have described is absurd.
*** Update ***
Seriously, folks. Calling Oliver fat in the arguments does not refute his point in any way, meaningful or not, and just makes you look like small, petulant nuisances. Knock it off.
Oliver
Well, except she is ashamed of her. The only people who think “lesbian” is a slur is the right.
Yum, Good
You should be ashamed of all the hamburgers you eat, Oliver. They could feed some small country that really needs it.
S Freud
Since Mrs Edwards and Oliver seem to be a couple of experts on shame and family relationships, let me “weigh in” with my own little theory: John Edwards is secretly (not-so-secretly) ashamed of his slobby wife and doesn’t particularly like being seen with her. (Explains the infrequent photo ops, no?) I’m not saying he doesn’t love her, just that he hates the thought of her naked & gets the willies whenever he thinks about the things she does in the bedroom.
Oliver
Good to see your commenters raising the bar for discourse, John.
Jones
Eat another bag of burgers, filet O fish. You make me laugh, Mr Tubby Bigamy Theorist.
Jack
I’m not a big expert on the animal kingdom. I wonder: How do manatees manage to type?
Howard Dean IV
Linking to an article by Salon: that’s what I call “raising the bar for discourse.” Hide your Goo Goo clusters, everyone !
Dorian
Oliver,
I saw a similar article on thecheneysaredevils.com.
JPS
Oh goddamn it, how about refuting Oliver on the merits of his argument?
I don’t think it would be hard to do, but you guys make me want to take his side just for spite.
dylan
Yum Good- Fat joke followed by some concern for the hungry… You go boy!
S Freud- “weighing” in. Stop! can’t….stifle…laughter
Jones- showing off grasp of pop cultural foodstuffs, and then… yep, a fat joke! Call Jonah at NRO, your friggin hired.
Howard Dean IV- who put forward what somewhat resembled an argument or claim; you almost made it. Two whole sentences without a fat joke! Go evolution!
PS. Oliver is damn sexy!
Bruce
Edwards and Kerry both used the word as a slur against Cheny. Their hope tis to try to get some right wing religous folks to not vote for a guy with a lesbian daughter.
Only the democrats are going after opponents families in an attempt to smear them.
Anyway, if Oliver is defending it then it is clear he knows it needs defending because it was completely wrong and over the line. Sort of like Oliver’s waistband.
Terry
Hewitt summarized it best when he said that a decent man would never have made the calculation of whether an opponent’s child was “fair game,” much less the remark. An honorable man would have already apologized. The voters are getting a good look at the real John Kerry, his running mate and family, and their defenders, including Oliver… whether skinny, fat or otherwise.
Dodd
I think John has the right of it. Elizabeth Edwards’ comment earns her whatever epithets people want to hurl her way. It was even lower than Kerry’s original error.
But I disagree w/ Bruce and others who suggest that this is some sort of left-wing version of Nixon’s Southern Strategy. They like to accuse us of speaking in “racial code words” when we talk about federalism and the importance of states’ rights – a low and unseemly argument and one I don’t think we should turn back on them without proof.
Rather, I think this was a simpler form of crass calculation: They were trying to suggest that Bush & Cheney are hypocrites. That doesn’t work, since the two men publically disagree on the public policy issue – the FMA – which that’s why they have to resort to making the charge by insinuation rather than making it openly.
Huck
Forget about Mary Cheney’s sexual preference. It was just tacky to gratuitously mention her for political gain. It’s not the GIANT outrage conservatives are making it out to be. But it was bad manners.
Grant
Huck,
The outrage comes at their refusal to apologize, preferring instead to dig themselves even deeper into their hole. Also–see Krauthammers new column– this, coupled with the Reeve exploitation seem to indicate a pattern of saying anything for political gain.
Also, I noticed in Jack O’Tooles argument he seems to think that Mary Cheney’s working in the gay outreach portion of the BushCheney campaign has some greater signifance than if she worked in a different capacity.
Why? Do you have to be gay to work in gay outreach? Does working in them make you open fodder for a presidential debate? If she had worked on, say, the campaigns website instead, would she still be fodder?
Ernest Brown
John’s right, its the reverse liposuction in Oliver’s brain that counts, not how much he has on his stomach. The stupid fat remarks were dumb when applied to Limbaugh and they don’t get any better here.
Birkel
One theory espoused today that interested me was whether Kerry’s decision to mention Mary Cheney was a covert attempt to placate the black and latino voters who are less likely to support gay marriage than some hypothetical “average voter.” Blacks and latinos tend to be more religious on average than whites and John Kerry has already made the huge mistake of saying he wouldn’t mind being the “second black president.” IMO, he’s going to have a very difficult time with the black vote.
BTW-
I hate identity politics but it’s the best shorthand for a comments section.
Jim B
John –
When Oliver comes to sling mud, you can hardly fault your commenters for responding in kind.
Oliver made himself look small. The respondents didn’t do themselves any favors by responding in kind, but let’s be honest: he was engaging in the same kind of behavior that led you to calling Elizabeth Edwards a bitch. If he wants to get down in the mud, then I really don’t have any sympathy for him when he finds himself bathed in it.
Noel
“The only people who think ‘lesbian’ is a slur are the right.”
Bullshit. There are Democrats and independents who’ll take away from Kerry’s comments “Dick Cheney raised him a little dyke–I won’t vote for a family of perverts!”
And Kerry wants their votes. This is old-fashioned “His sister is a thespian”-gay-baiting.
I’m sure Kerry/Edwards could have found a gay relative in their own families to use as a prop. Or even used Chrissie Gephardt, Barney Frank or Jim McGreevey. But that wouldn’t have done the job, would it?
USOC
Winner of the Thread: Oliver.
Losers: Balloon-Juice and his love-gang.
Grant
Winner of thread: Me
Losers: rest of humanity
Hey, that was fun! I wish my mom could see me now!
ps: no offense humanity, I was just joking. we can still be friends.
Gary Farber
“Not only is Cheney on record as having stated his enormous pride in his daughter….”
Perfectly true, but I really don’t see how that speaks to Lynne Cheney’s feelings, given that husbands and wives often turn out to be two entirely separate people, with different opinions and reactions to various things.
I can only speculate as to what’s in Lynne Cheney’s head, based upon her writings, and public speakings and acts, and so can you. It’s not clear to me how, other than citing those, we can express surety as to what is on or off the mark as to what her reaction inside her head is (such as her private feelings or evolutions or whatever, about her daughter’s homosexuality).
You’re perfectly entitled to your opinions about Elizabeth Edwards’ statement, of course. I’m just not clear how you can declare with surety that she’s on or “off the mark.” You’re entitled to say “I think she’s off the mark,” of course, but that’s not a refutation of Mrs. Edwards, obviously; it’s just another personal opinion.
As I pointed out here, incidentally, Lynne Cheney is on record as publically declaring that her daughter is not so a lesbian years after Mary Cheney was publically out. This, amongst other bits and pieces, would tend to suggest at least the possibility of some reason for wondering what goes on in Lynne Cheney’s head regarding homosexuality.
By the way, if anyone is wondering, I’m pretty fat these days, too. Just thought I’d make that clear.
More seriously, I have to say that I do grant the Vice-President a good number of points for his public statements regarding his daughter, and his being willing to not support the Constitutional amendment, and state that he personally thinks the matter of marriage should be left to the states. I don’t have a huge number of good things to say about Dick Cheney, but this is one.
Matthew Stinson
I have to wonder: what if Cheney or Bush had, in a parallel universe, mentioned the importance of “fat acceptance” in one of the debates, then complimented John Edwards on having a fat wife?
If Edwards had gotten offended, would his anger stemmed from a sense of “shame”? Or would he have been rightfully mad because the comment was damn rude?
Huck
Oliver’s not fat. He’s just big-boned.