I am not dead, and I should resume blogging tomorrow. Lots of things to talkabout, but for right now, let me officially declare that I would not piss on Markos if he were on fire.
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by John Cole| 47 Comments
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Declan
Wow. Quite a large number of asshats at that site. I wonder if each and every one of them has reached into their pocketbook and written a check to alleviate the suffering.
John, I really don’t know how you can even go there to read what these morons are thinking.
Kimmitt
It’d be nice if the President could be bothered to say something, though.
Kimmitt
Apologies; he finally got around to it this evening.
Aaron
Consider this. We do not know the full scale of the damage or where the long term help will be needed most. It’s a disaster affecting multiple countries. We have to work most aid through each countries system, especially any long term assistance.
So, how would it help to stand up an pledge a billion dollars now? It would be pure politicking, since we have no idea how much is needed where.
Daryl McCullough
Sorry, I don’t get it. What do you find so offensive on Kos’ site?
And yes, I’m a Kos reader who has opened his wallet (I donated to the Christian Children’s Fund).
Daryl McCullough
Aaron writes: So, how would it help to stand up an pledge a billion dollars now? It would be pure politicking, since we have no idea how much is needed where.
We know that a heck of a lot more than a billion dollars will be needed. Think about it: recovery from hurricanes in the US routinely cost billions. This is much, much more devastating than anything the US has experienced.
Al Maviva
Apparently, Kimmit, he was busy talking three days ago to the Australian & Japanese PM to launch a trilateral effort to help out, which will dwarf the UN efforts (to which our contributions are already maxed out – the UN has rules preventing US domination of their operations, you know).
Personally, if I was down and out, I’d rather get a fat check from you, than your heartfelt outpouring of grief at my misfortune. But that’s just me, a heartless conservative. I’m sure most liberals, with their superior emotional intelligence, would prefer otherwise.
Patrick
What in the bloody hell does the President of the United States mumbling a few words about feeling their pain have to do with the quality of their lives / deaths / burials? Christ, people, get a grip. We send money, it’s not enough. We send more, we had to be “shamed” into it. Let’s face it – it’s Bush doing it so it must be wrong and selfish and wewantBillClintonBAAACCCKKKKKK.
Grip, meet get.
Daryl McCullough
Al Maviva says: Personally, if I was down and out, I’d rather get a fat check from you, than your heartfelt outpouring of grief at my misfortune. But that’s just me, a heartless conservative. I’m sure most liberals, with their superior emotional intelligence, would prefer otherwise.
Well, the closest that I’ve come to such a disaster was 9/11. I was devastated by that event. And yes, it helped enormously that people throughout the world expressed sympathy and solidarity. When the French newspaper printed “Today, we are all Americans” I got tears in my eyes. Right, the words didn’t bring back those 3000 people. But they helped.
I really don’t understand the point you guys are making. There is no either you offer sympathy or you offer aid—you offer both. That’s what decent people do.
Jay
Daryl, hand me the barf bag. It’s amazing how the world who does nothing but talk shit about this country every single day, come running with their hands out, as soon as they need money.
First of all, the $35 million was an initial pledge. There has to be some kind of PLAN in place. You don’t go off promising to write checks for billions of dollars just for the hell of it.
Secondly, Bush is keeping our aid away from the most corrupt organization on this earth, the United Nations. After what those cocksuckers did with the Oil For Food program, they don’t deserve to get one dime of our taxpayer dollars. We’ll hand them $3 billion, and $2 billion of that will be sucked out for that shithead Kofi and his band of corrupt brothers.
And guess what? Who gives a RAT’S ASS what the French said back on 9/12? They reverted back to their “I hate America” attitude within weeks. Screw them.
You’re all a bunch of “We hate Bush” whiners who would have bitched if Bush went on television and bawled his eyes out and promised to increase taxes on “the rich” ten fold in order to send hundreds of billions to the UN to aid the tsunami victims.
All of your complaints ring more hollow than Michael Moore’s refrigerator.
Jay
Oh and by the way, the French have pledged $20 million so far.
Aaron
Aaron writes: So, how would it help to stand up an pledge a billion dollars now? It would be pure politicking, since we have no idea how much is needed where.
Darry writes: We know that a heck of a lot more than a billion dollars will be needed. Think about it: recovery from hurricanes in the US routinely cost billions. This is much, much more devastating than anything the US has experienced.
–Darryl, so how much should the check be for? Just leave it blank? ;) Why not wait until more assessments are in before the world press and Daily Kos start banging the drum about how stingy we are?
uh-huh
I think that the point of John’s post is that a horrible tragedy strikes, and it is immediately seized upon as an excuse to rip Bush and the US. That is pretty disgusting. Why does everything have to be spun as a criticism? Something truly awful has happened and I am fully confidant that the US will be a long term part of repairing the lives that have been devastated. However, some people seem to latch on to a tragedy like this almost with glee as it gives them a reason to criticize others and therfore somehow feel better about themselves. It really disturbs me.
Aaron
Darryl,
I was in Taichung, Taiwan for the 921 earthquake. Thousands died.
Many rescuers were delayed waiting for China to approve them. Trust me, the people trapped in building prefer to have the rescue dogs not the words.
I was also here for SARS. Since Taiwan is not allowed in the WHO, the UN offered ZERO assistance. Guess which country sent in its disease experts to help? (One member even contracted SARS.)
I know, I know, as a DailyKos reader you must be thinking, “EU? France? Canada? Sweden?”
Because surely, there is no oil in Taiwan, and pissing of China is bad for US corporate fat cats…
Kimmitt
I think the point is that a horrible tragedy struck, and we were yet again humiliated by the incompetence and insensitivity of our President.
SDN
Maybe on your planet, Kimmitt…
I prefer a President who stops people from being run thru industrial shredders to one who “feels their pain” while pardoning the slime working with them.
Action over words; substance before show.
jeff
People can parse all they want, the fact of the matter is, one of the worst natural disasters in the course of human history occurred and the first reaction of blithering fucking idiots like Kos and Atrios is to say “how can we rip Bush over this?”.
These guys are repugnant scum. I guess Kos is still pissed that his endorsed candidates went 0 for 15 during the last election.
Daryl McCullough
Guys, you write to accuse Kos readers of being a**holes. But look at what Kimmitt and I have written here, and look at the angry responses.
uh huh writes: I think that the point of John’s post is that a horrible tragedy strikes, and it is immediately seized upon as an excuse to rip Bush and the US.
First of all, it’s not criticism of Bush and the US, it is just criticism of Bush. I know it’s sometimes hard to make that distinction, but as someone who thinks Bush is the worst President ever to be reelected, I make that distinction all the time.
But even with that correction, I don’t agree. Everything is not an opportunity to bash Bush. When Bush united the country after 9/11, I was solidly behind him, and so was the rest of the world.
Daryl McCullough
jeff says: People can parse all they want, the fact of the matter is, one of the worst natural disasters in the course of human history occurred and the first reaction of blithering fucking idiots like Kos and Atrios is to say “how can we rip Bush over this?”.
Well, doesn’t it work the other way, as well? Aren’t you out looking for ways to bash liberals, Clinton, the EU, and the UN?
Daryl McCullough
jay writes: Who gives a RAT’S ASS what the French said back on 9/12?
I just told you, it was important to me.
They reverted back to their “I hate America” attitude within weeks. Screw them.
That’s your interpretation of what happened. It’s not mine. I think you’re wrong.
jeff
No, Darryl, you jack-off, i’m not looking for reasons to bash them.
I’m looking at the fact that over 80,000 people are dead and the best many members of the lunatic left can do is dance on their graves and make this political.
Daryl McCullough
Jeff writes I’m looking at the fact that over 80,000 people are dead…
and using that occasion to bash me, Kos, Atrios, Clinton, the EU, the UN, liberals, etc.
shark
When the French newspaper printed “Today, we are all Americans” I got tears in my eyes
Too bad you never read the body of that editorial, which did a good job of basically saying that we deserved it and had it coming…
shark
It’d be nice if the President could be bothered to say something, though.
Why? The people he’d be addressing don’t have TV sets now…
shark
I think the point is that a horrible tragedy struck, and we were yet again humiliated by the incompetence and insensitivity of our President.
Spell out EXACTLY what you think he should’ve done, and when.
John cole
Darryl- I am not using 80k dead (and that number is way off- I am willing to bet 250k and upwards died in this)toattack you or others.
I am using Kos’s words to show why I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire, as I stated previuosly. A disaster happens, and thefirst thing he does is attack Bush for… for not saying what Kos thinks needs to be said.
And Kimmitt, if the President’s actions and statements regarding the tsunami have really humiliated you, you are more pathetic that I thought.
Trump
What’s the beef against Bush? If you look, he pledged an initial amount of aid at about the same time as most other nations did, and at a level higher then most nations (France initially pledged $140,000) On top of that, he kept revising his figure upwards- not because of that UN socialist douchebag, but because the death toll kept going up and up as it became more clear the extent of the horror.
Oh, not to mention the immediate ordering of airforce and naval assets to the region to assist however they could.
So what is your problem? That he didn’t rush out like Clinton and find the nearest camera to bite his lip and mouth platitudes? Or that he didn’t give a blank check to the relief effort? (OUR money btw) It seems to me that what you want is either empty gestures or overreactions. Well sorry, but this President does neither, unlike his predecessor.
So I just don’t get it. You just want to bash him for the sake of bashing him. 100,000 people die and you turn to politics (and it’s politics you cannot win anyway! The guy has been re-elected, you can’t touch him now!) You Bush-bashers sure have strange priorities.
But you have established the bar. The next time aa disaster happens with a Dem. president in office, if he doesn’t appear on TV within minutes waving a blank check, I expect you to complain. Of course you won’t, so excuse me for calling you hypocrites and cretins in advance.
Daryl McCullough
John writes: A disaster happens, and the first thing he does is attack Bush…
You do realize that the very first thing you wrote about the catastrophe was an attack on Kos.
jeff
Daryl,
Where did i bash the UN, Clinton, or the EU?
Unless, of course, you automatically consider them to be the “lunatic left” that i referred to.
considering that i don’t, again, tell me where i bashed the UN, Clinton, or the EU. Put up or shut up, asshole.
Daryl McCullough
jeff,
What are you so angry about?
shark
You do realize that the very first thing you wrote about the catastrophe was an attack on Kos
Point of clarification- he was NOT writing about the catastrophe. He was writing and attacking Kos political priorities. A different thing, in my opinion
Daryl McCullough
shark writes: Point of clarification- he was NOT writing about the catastrophe. He was writing and attacking Kos political priorities. A different thing, in my opinion
That’s my point—instead of talking about the catastrophe, John chose first to attack other people’s responses to the catastrophe. Which, coincidentally, is the same thing Kos was doing that made him undeserving of John’s urine.
Declan
Daryl: Blah
John cole
Daryl- My fucking blog. I had not written for 6-7 days, and I decided there really was nothing I could add to the disaster discussion that others had not already covered in great detail.
When I saw Kos’s post, that stuck with me.
Do I have to have your fucking approval of what topics to post on now? BEcause what I post on certainly does not change Kos’s extremely offensive statement, nor does it change your idiotic charge that Bush has not done anything, or enough, or whatever it is that has your panties in a wad.
Kimmitt
Spell out EXACTLY what you think he should’ve done, and when.
Shortly after it became clear that the tsunami had caused at least ten thousand deaths and that the number was going upward, Bush should have held a press conference in which he read a nice speech (the one he read was okay, but not that inspiring). Then he should have said something like, “Since the magnitude of the tragedy is still unfolding, we are only beginning to determine what the appropriate level of aid is, but our rescue workers are already…” etc. etc. His people should also not have been bitchy toward Clinton, who has a long history of philanthropic work following his Presidency, but rather acted with the class they showed at the opening of the Presidential library.
The problems I had were the timing and the announcement of a small dollar figure, even given the death toll known at the time. It felt to me like tens of thousands of people had died, and the President really didn’t seem to care that much, when he is one of the very few people in the world with the power to make a large difference in what happens next.
This puts aside the fact that we can do well by doing good here — it would be nice for the world to see the US Government going to great lengths to save the lives and improve the welfare of Muslims in the world’s largest Muslim country. Since Americans are by nature generous people, it would be nice to have the world be aware of the fact.
Finally, I do blame the idiot reporter who misreprensted the UN official’s words. He didn’t say that the US response was stingy, he was making a complaint which is common among development workers, that developed countries in general do not give as much as the OECD and other organizations of developed countries say we ought.
shark
Shortly after it became clear that the tsunami had caused at least ten thousand deaths and that the number was going upward, Bush should have held a press conference in which he read a nice speech
Why? Especially since the people he would speaking to would have no TV’s (or time to watch them)
His people should also not have been bitchy toward Clinton,
Maybe Clinton shouldn’t have gone out camera hunting to upstage everyone
The problems I had were the timing and the announcement of a small dollar figure, even given the death toll known at the time
Yet the “small dollar figure” (and how do you determine what is small) was still one of the largest put forth at the time, when the extent was unknown
It felt to me like tens of thousands of people had died, and the President really didn’t seem to care that much, when he is one of the very few people in the world with the power to make a large difference in what happens next.
Well, this is your problem in a nutshell. “I felt” – next time try thinking. Even if the Pres had pledged 1 billion, what good would it have done immediately? Per numerous news sources, aid is flowing to the region, and it’s piling up at airports because they can’t reach the devestated areas yet. It takes awhile for our ships and troops (which you don’t count in our aid I notice)to reach these places
This puts aside the fact that we can do well by doing good here — it would be nice for the world to see the US Government going to great lengths to save the lives and improve the welfare of Muslims in the world’s largest Muslim country. Since Americans are by nature generous people, it would be nice to have the world be aware of the fact.
Again, lack of critical thinking here. If the Muslims don’t understand our generosity after $35 million, they won’t understand it after $60 million, $100 million, or $100 billion. Stop pandering.
Now you wrote this:
I think the point is that a horrible tragedy struck, and we were yet again humiliated by the incompetence and insensitivity of our President.
So you basically are upset because the Pres:
1) Didn’t waste his time on a useless press conference (which you would’ve castigated him for had he done so by the way)
2) Was “bitchy” towards Clinton.
I’ll let this stand w/o further comment. You’ve done enough to prove my point.
Kimmitt
I think the two sides have been presented pretty fully; obviously, I don’t find shark’s response compelling.
Dean
Kimmitt:
The question was what you would have done EXACTLY.
I see nothing here, frex, about how much money would’ve been proper as a first bid. Would you have offered $1 billion? $16 Million?
You’re apparently studying to be an economist—perhaps you could give us some insight as to how you determined that $15M is too paltry an initial sum?
As for saving Muslim lives, it would seem that if the US going to war in Bosnia and Kosovo over Muslim lives wasn’t going to be seen as evidence, or freeing Iraqis from a tyrant wasn’t, then saving Muslims in one of the world’s largest natural gas producers would be at least as likely to be seen as further evidence of American efforts at controlling Muslim oil as anything else.
You also say that part of the problem is that YOU FELT Bush wasn’t showing enough empathy. (You also criticize the speech.) Well, “etc., etc.” doesn’t exactly tell us how you’d do it better. And perhaps some stage management directions? “Bush should have cried.” “Bush should have wept copious tears. His shoulders should have shaken, as he sobbed.”
You know, what would it have taken to make you “feel his pain”?
Kimmitt
I see nothing here, frex, about how much money would’ve been proper as a first bid.
I wouldn’t have; any number that I used would end up either being revised upwards later or too much. If political pressures required a number, I would have made it clear that it was an initial payment with every expectation of increases as time passed. Something like, “In addition to military and logistic aid, we have freed up $15 million for immediate support for the affected governments. As we come to understand the situation more fully, our commitment will certainly increase.”
You’re apparently studying to be an economist—perhaps you could give us some insight as to how you determined that $15M is too paltry an initial sum?
It’s not econ, it’s poli sci. This is our big chance to (1) do a lot of good very quickly, and (2) do it for a Muslim country. It’s kind of cynical, but something of a blank check makes a lot of sense politically. We might do more good with a hundred million dollars now than with ten billion dollars elsewhere.
You also say that part of the problem is that YOU FELT Bush wasn’t showing enough empathy.
Well, it took him three days to say anything. Stage directions can only do so much — and I made that clear in my initial post. When ten (or fifty or a hundred) thousand people die from a single disaster, it’s polite to at least notice in a timely fashion.
if the US going to war in Bosnia and Kosovo over Muslim lives wasn’t going to be seen as evidence, or freeing Iraqis from a tyrant wasn’t,
Yeah, I’m still baffled at how badly we’ve failed to leverage our humanitarian work in Bosnia and Kosovo. I can only imagine that it’s the Clinton-hatred, combined with contempt for the idea of trying to look at things from a Muslim perspective. That said, we freed Iraq from a tyrant, but it’s not like we’ve been doing such a fantastic job of taking care of the place afterwards. Hopefully we’ll pull out soon and it’ll stabilize, at which point we can start using it as a PR success, instead of appearing to be anti-Muslim conquerors.
John cole
Two things I find disgusting/stupid:
1.) The notion that this will do anything to change Muslim attitudes about the United States. It won’t. Period. Those who already irrationally hate the united States, allied with the rhetoric of the Juan Cole’s of the world, will continue to hate us.
2.) The notion that there will be a US flag or “Donated by the US” on the goods which will get to the afflicted area, rapidly changing their opinion of the United States. None of them will know we have helped, none of them will care.
3.) Anti-Bush Jihadists, such as Kimmitt, would never have said a damn thing if Clinton had done the same thing as Bush. In fact, they would be appluading Clinton’s foresight in doing quiet negotiations for a long term rebuilding process of the region.
4.) Anyone remember a place called Bam, Iran? We do these tihngs not because we hope to garner good political will, but because it is the right thing to do.
From now on I am simply going to ignore the nasla whining of idiots like Juan Cole and the lisping snideness of know-it-alls like him. For this, this really is all about politics- domestic politics.
John cole
I gues that is four things. NEver said I could count.
Kimmitt
Anti-Bush Jihadists, such as Kimmitt, would never have said a damn thing if Clinton had done the same thing as Bush.
No, we’d’ve shuffled our feet and looked embarassed when the Right said it, because we didn’t want to rip on our guy despite the fact that they had a point.
You know, how most of us act when the Right rips Clinton a new one about his inaction in Rwanda. Not that we believe that a Republican President would have done any better (witness Bush’s response to the Sudan), but that’s the way of things.
And, yes, it might be useful to start mentioning to the Muslim world that when Bam happened, we were there too — that, in fact, we only torture people to death and invade random countries due to this particular Administration’s moral failings, but that at some point we will very likely come to our senses and start acting like the decent human beings we are, underneath the brutality that September 11th awoke in us.
Aaron
Kimmy,
I thought the muslims could be reminded of Kosovo, but I think they are pretty selective about what military actions they support and which ones they don’t.
Come to think of it, we had no UN approval to attack Kosovo and we bombed civiliains in Serbi, too. Kosovo is still occupied 10 years later.
The only difference is that the Serbs made the smart decision that to keep opposing the West would be really, really dumb.
I really don’t understand what the Sunnis in Iraq want – well, I do, but is anyone really going to let them rule Iraq again as a brutal minority dictatorship?
Kimmitt
well, I do, but is anyone really going to let them rule Iraq again as a brutal minority dictatorship?
Of course we are, for the same reason we backed them back in the 80s in the first place; we can’t let the Kurds get uppity because of Turkey and we can’t let the Shiites get uppity because of Iran. I sincerely hope that the resulting strongman will be much less brutal than Saddam, but I harbor no illusions regarding his democratic pretensions.
Steve Malynn
Kimmit you are a revisionist hack.
Parker
Guys –
Take a deep, cleansing breath, please.
Then go to the link of your choice and donate what you can.
Then seek out organizations who effectively support the ability to provide quick response emergency services – this is a tough job, since there can be long ‘standby’ periods.
I’d appreciate some suggestions here – who can I give to that, five years from now, will be able to get a water treatment plant running at the site of a disaster, in the shortest time with the greatest capacity? I think currently that would be the U.S. Military…
As to who has been a horse’s patoot and to what extent, there are millions of hurting people who don’t care at all.
Kimmitt
That’s an awesome question, and I’ll see what I can do about answering it.