I don’t know what else to file this under but humor, because it is just a laugh a minute at Oliver’s:
Because I’m blunt, a lot of people assume I’m an extremist liberal. Which, as a pro-death penalty, pro-free marketer, strikes me as funny. I’m an advocate of a party and a set of ideals well within the American mainstream. As are most Democrats.
I am against the current War on Drugs. Guess that makes me a liberal, hunh? Stop giggling- Oliver is serious.
*** Update ***
From the “You Can’t Make This Shit Up” Files, Oliver’s very next post states the following:
More Phony Dems On Fox – Submitted by Oliver Willis on Tue, 02/15/2005
Martin Frost, along with Susan Estrich, Alan Colmes, and Pat Caddell make up the Washington Generals to Fox’s Globetrotters.
Only thing I dislike more than a right-winger is a “liberal” who enables right-wingers. Sheesh.
Martin Frost is a moderate. Estrich is a liberal. Colmes is an avowed liberal- he just looks like a moderate when sitting next to Hannity. Pat Caddell was a liberal for 20 years before Oliver was born.
Gary Farber
I don’t particularly read Oliver Willis, so I’m not terribly familiar with the ins and outs of his positions, but I do note, as a general observation, that a great many people confuse the degree of emphasis of someone’s opinions — their “loudness” or surety or emphaticness — with the degree of radicalism of their opinions; that is, of course, a completely false correlation, however accurate it is on a stopped clock basis.
But do you have any sort of quick-and-easy template for what defines a “liberal” and a “conservative” in your view? That would make an interesting post, wouldn’t it? (As well as being useful for those of us who are not you, in understanding you.)
John Cole
That’s easy, Gary.
Conservatives are anything Oliver doesn’t like. Liberals are everything he likes.
How was that for a smartass response?
:)
Robin Roberts
Its not like coherence was ever OW’s strong point …
Robert McClelland
Willis never said he wasn’t a liberal, he said he wasn’t an _extremist_ liberal. I’d bet that you’re now feeling stupid for missing that difference except I’m sure you’ll deny the blunder is your fault.
Chris Lawrence
Actually, O-Dub isn’t a extremist liberal, just a partisan hack. Which is actually worse, since being an “extremist” requires the formation of a coherent ideology while being a party hack just requires parroting what others are telling you to say.
RW
Au contreire, in his pre-Brock days he often touted how he was proud to be a centrist Democrat. Then, after Brock came calling, that stance became an albatross, so it disappeared.
So, Robert, you might want to read up a bit before you assume that people should feel stupid.
JPS
Oliver’s onto something, though. An immoderate temperament (which he sometimes has) can make your views seem more extreme than they really are.
I gather Paul Krugman actually has some centrist views on some economic issues, but we rarely hear them–he’s usually more interested in vituperating his political opponents–so we tend to think of him as farther to the left than he is.
I remember some poll from late campaign-season 2000 when people were asked to rate the candidates on a scale from left to right. The average for Gore came out to the left of Lieberman (true enough), and both came out to the left of the Republican ticket (also true).
What I loved was that people rated Dick Cheney more “moderate”, by more than a point on a seven-point left-to-right scale, than George Bush. I don’t care where you are on the spectrum, Dick Cheney is well to the right of Bush by any reasonable measure. But Cheney had just come out of a debate where he was low-key and likeable, and his moderate temperament was mistaken for moderate politics.
Robert McClelland
his pre-Brock days he often touted how he was proud to be a centrist Democrat.
That’s irrelevant. John did not challenge the degree of Oliver’s liberalism but instead falsely accused him of denying that he is a liberal. And now that this error (I’ll even give him the benefit of the doubt that it was an honest error and not deception on his part) has been pointed out to John, he remains silent and refuses to correct his mistake.
John Cole
McClelland- I think it is pretty clear I am arguing Oliver has become an extremist liberal.
Now, I used sarcasm, which is more subtle than your style of using ALL CAPS and lots of foul language along with threatening to kneecap people, so I am not surprised it confused you.
Run along now, Robert.
Marko
Careful, Robert “Crack Your Skull” McClelland may try to further dispell the myth of Canadians as wimps by threatening to deflate your tires. All FOUR! Then he’ll carve a maple leaf in your car door with a key.
BumperStickerist
well *somebody* at blogads touts O-Dubs as
Oliver Willis: Like Kryptonite To Stupid
Progressive opinion from a young african-american bomb throwe
hmmm … the moderate centrist bomb thrower?
Robert McClelland
McClelland- I think it is pretty clear I am arguing Oliver has become an extremist liberal.
You did no such thing, John. Oliver cited two conservative positions he holds as evidence that he’s not an extremist and your response was to cite one liberal position you hold in order to sarcastically argue that this then makes you a liberal.
In other words, you’re quite clearly claiming Oliver is denying he’s a liberal because he holds a few positions that run counter to liberalism.
If you had intended to argue against his claims that he’s an extremist you would have made the comparison that your liberal position on the war on drugs means you are not an extremist conservative.
Oliver
Leave it to Ricky West to lie again.
I believe based on any rational measure that I’m center-left/moderate liberal. I once accepted the right’s definition of “liberal”, but I’m tired of that 2nd grade B.S.. I consider an extremist liberal a Dennis Kucinich or Ralph Nader, and share most of my beliefs with center-leftists like President Clinton or Al Gore. Senator Kerry was more liberal than me on many issues, while I shared more ideology with Senator Edwards.
Now, am I a strong advocate for my positions? You bet. I’d take many moderate Dems over Martin Frost any day because he doesnt rollover like Colmes, Estrich, etc.
CadillaqJaq
I was hanging in there with Oliver until he equated Al Gore as a center-leftist (same as Bill Clinton). Clinton: yes, Gore: nada. Oliver must have missed one or two of Gore’s recent sweat-soaked campaign speechs.
Having Martin Frost overlooked for DNC chair and Dr. Deanweird chosen instead, where does Oliver place Dean? Center-leftist?
And with reports today that Kerry offered his advice and council to GWB prior to his upcoming Euro-tour, I place Kerry in Center-stupid/Arrogant.
John Cole
McClelland- Oliver is claiming two positions which are not liberal make him not a liberal, failing to mention the breathtaking number of positions, including conspiracies, that he does endorse- all of which are liberal, many of which are extreme
I offered a position of mine that is not conservative, stating I must be a liberal, as evidence that one position on one issue does not a conservative or liberal make.
I amsorry this confuses you so much. Can’t you just go back to your own cesspool.
BTW- Check out the rampant anti-Canadianism at Newsweek. Clearly, a number of your unhinged friends were on the Newsweek chat, and after a series of idiotic questions from Canadians, this exchange appeared:
Toronto, Canada: Why do you refer to Zarqawi as “the most ruthless and notorious killer in Iraq” when Bush (et al) has murdered between 20 and 100 thousand for much less reason than Zarqawi? Eh? That epithet could be better applied to “Chemical” Cheney, “Anthrax” Rumsfeld, or any of the other gangsters in the U.S. government.
Rod Nordland: Well we’re hearing from all the loonies in Toronto, it seems. Civilian casualties in Iraq are no where near 20 to 100,000, despite some dubious claims to that effect. Zarqawi would cut off a Canadian’s head, too, if he could get one, videotape it and post it on the internet for all the victim’s friends and family to see, and if you don’t think that’s ruthless and notorious, there’s something seriously wrong with you.
Clearly, Rod Nordland’s strident anti-Canadianism is a force to be reckoned with…
Just Passing Through
My impression of Oliver from both his site and comments elsewhere I’ve seen him make is not of any sort of extremist. I would not equate him with the center/left moderatation of a Marshall or Jarvis, but I would not equate his views with the extremism of a Kos or Atrios. His views converge with theirs more often than I am comfortable with, but some convergence with extreme views on either end of the spectrum is inevitable for anyone taking on the label of right or left regardless of degree.
My impression of McClelland from his site and his comments is that he’s out on the fringe in good company with the most rabid atriette or kosite. His arguments are quite frankly delusions if one is kindly disposed in categorizing them or rather wretched lies if one is not. Certainly they show abysmal ignorance of world, US, and Canadian realities. Making the claim that the left hasn’t lost a battle yet is mindboggling whether he means in the US, Canada, or the world at large.
There is a great debate in these times about how the west deals with some very real threats. I think Oliver’s intent is to add to that discourse. While I seldom agree with Oliver’s analyses or conclusions, I find his arguments to be food for thought and not to be dimissed out of hand. I think McClelland’s intent is to derail discourse while reveling in the spoiling role. While he is easily dismissed, he generates white noise where one would prefer coherency and I usually avoid the few sites and threads where he is tolerated.
John Cole
Oliver has good days and bad days- but the latter has outweighed the former in recent months.
I think what is really working is that at heart, Oliver may view himself as a moderate- and indeed, he once had moderate positions. However, I believe he determined that the only way to achieve his moderate goals was to embrace the loony left as a force to defeat the evil Bushhitler crew of religious extremists. Anymore, any trace of moderation is missing from his pages, and you will be hard pressed to find much disagreement from what you see on Oliver’s site or Atrios’s and Kos’s.
Do a content analysis. Check technorati. Oliver may, at his core still be the moderate I once perceived him to be, but he is now in league with the loony left.
RW
Feel free to point out any specific error that was in my comment, Oliver.
And for goodness sakes, stop trying to play some sort of smashmouth teenager from the comfort of your computer. If you’re not intelligent enough to respond to someone in a cogent manner vis-a-vis a face to face encounter, then resist the temptation.
Nobody believes your bravado that you type from your empty apartment, so you can drop the machismo-driven facade and pretend to be an adult. I promise that big, bad, ol’ me isn’t going to “threaten” you by making you think that you’d actually couldn’t scream from your TCP/IP world, but a modicum of civility (or honor) would be appreciated.
Or are you no longer capable of that, either, since you signed on with Brock and had to adopt a new personna?
Oliver
Ricky, you’re the one who goes from comment section to comment section, making things up. My positions remain essentially unchanged for the last four years, and my apartment is far from empty – as if it were any of your business. I don’t know why you do it — but I guess we all have hobbies. You’ve shown me no civility, and I will do the same until otherwise.
John: you seem to define the loony left as any who disagree with you. Please cite an extremist stance I might have that rattles the halls of American politics.
RW
Cite the source.
I first started asking you this back when we were quasi-friends and you were making false accusations in my direction.
Cite the source.
Well, there was that pro-Iraq war post in 2001 that you don’t like to talk about (your usual knee-jerk teenage response is something about conspiracy theories, which displays a glaring ignorance of the word “conspracy”).
I don’t recall calling you any name whatsoever or being incivil towards you (arguments, yes, but not you).
Once again, cite the source.
Oliver, I again remind you that you are free to point out one error in my first comment. Or, you can follow your usual pattern of attacking the interlocutor from the comfort of your PC and then hauling ass when you fail to score a single debating “point”. It’s up to you.
I’ll await your citation of the sources for your allegations. I won’t hold my breath, since I’ve been waiting for about a year since you first started that stuff.
John, the reasoning against your post reminds me about the anti-death penalty Bill O’Reilly, who also is on line with the global warming crowd, who is still labeled a “right winger”……by folks like mediamatters.
Lou
Hey, John, check out http://www.rabble.ca/babble. This is the busiest left-leaning Canadian discussion group on the Net. It was recently infiltrated by some troll calling himself “RED STATE REPUBLICAN.” Anyway, he flipped out and left the following thread titles:
HEY AUDRA KISS MY AMERICAN ASS WHORE!!!
REALITY BITES COCK SUCKER
“ACTIVIST” IS A NICE WORD FOR FAGGOT WITH NO JOB
BEST CURE FOR FEMINISM IS A GOOD FUCK; 2 BAD THEY R 2 UGLY 2 GET ONE
FEMINISM IS JUST A PLOY FOR UGLY WOMEN TO HAVE A VOICE
NO ONE LIKES GAYS (FAGGOTS)
REAL MEN LIKE GIRLY GIRLS… REAL DYKES LIKE MANLY GIRLS aka “FEMINISTS”
FEMINISTS R ALL BUTCHES WHO ARE PISSED OFF AT THE SYSTEM CUZ NO ONE LIKES UGLY BITCHS
FEMINISTS ARE JUST UGLY WOMEN PISSED OFF CUZ THEY LOOK LIKE MEN!!!
FEMINISTS ARE JUST PISSED CUZ THER UGLY
HEPHASTION FUCKIN COCKSUCKER!!!!
YOU DYKE LESBO BUTCHES!!!!!!!!!!!
REALITY BITES FUCKIN FAGGOT!!!!!!!!!!!
HEPHASTION FUCKIN FAGGOT!!!
This is why Canadians hate Americans.
BumperStickerist
John H. Hinderaker, Republican activist and fellow at the Claremont Institute, has said that former President Jimmy Carter is on the side of the terrorists.
In point of fact, Hinderaker said no such thing.
The entire post in question:
Administration Critics Keeping Mum
The Washington Times notes that some of the most prominent critics of the administration’s Iraq policy have been curiously silent since Sunday’s triumphant election:
Skeptics of President Bush’s attempt to bring democracy to Iraq have been largely silent since Iraqis enthusiastically turned out for Sunday’s elections.
Billionaire Bush-basher George Soros and left-wing filmmaker Michael Moore were among critics of the administration’s Iraq policy who had no comment after millions of Iraqis went to the polls in their nation’s first free elections in decades.
The Carter Center determined that the security situation in Iraq was going to be too dangerous to send election monitors, so the Atlanta-based human rights organization founded by former President Jimmy Carter posted its personnel in neighboring Jordan.Asked whether the Carter Center had a comment on the election, spokeswoman Kay Torrance said: “We wouldn’t have any ‘yea’ or ‘nay’ statement on Iraq.”
Mr. Carter told NBC’s “Today” show in September that he was confident the elections would not take place. “I personally do not believe they’re going to be ready for the election in January … because there’s no security there,” he said.
Jimmy Carter isn’t just misguided or ill-informed. He’s on the other side. {date: February 2nd}
–
let’s head over to a February 15th statement by Carter re: the elections:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050211-123325-7245r.htm
Using only the direct Carter quotes (since this is a MOONIE publication), the point Hinderaker makes is accurate.
Syllogisms, Oliver –
Not all people who are ‘on the other side’ which – by the way, isn’t defined here – are terrorists.
BumperStickerist
Oh, Oliver … THK is now just TH. Just ask her.
So, you can go back to calling her “Malkin’. Seems she was right, so you might want to apologize.
you know …. for being a racist dickhead and all.
Just Passing Through
John.
I don’t call Oliver a moderate – see comment above. But I don’t view him as an extremist in the vien of atrios or kos. Some convergence – yes. Cut from the same cloth – no. I do find his arguments have merit enough not to dismiss them out of hand. I have not yet found myself in agreement with him.
Sun must have set where McClelland lukrs. He’s transformed into the were-McClelland, Lou.
John Cole
Lou-
That is weird. Canadians hate Americans because of one guy on a website. Odd.
RW
That’s irrelevant.
Well, if one is to totally regard your statement “Willis never said he wasn’t a liberal” as being sheer fantasy or make believe, I guess so.
In the future, it’d be easier if you just highlighted the parts of your comments that we’re supposed to disregard when they’re shown to be faux.
Oliver Witless
I’m tired of 2nd grade BS.
Nothing but BS of the highest caliber for my fan(s)!
HH
The Kos talking points are out. Good to see “centrist” Oliver following suit.
Marko
Oliver has put himself in a mental state where it makes perfect sense to take moderate left positions on social issues (making him a ‘moderate’) then proceed to parrot all of the Bushitler Brown Shirt Rethuglican conspiracy nonsense spouted by the most extreme of the left.
You can’t do that. It isn’t intellectually honest to demonize the other side but claim moderation based solely on a few moderate social positions. He puts his toes right on the line then “throws bombs”. When he gets called out, he slides his left sneaker back and says “Look, my foot is right on the ‘moderate’ line. You are obviously some sort of nutcase right-winger to call me a partisan hack.”
A moderate is able to share the middle with other moderates on BOTH sides of his position. Oliver can’t do it. He isn’t a moderate, he’s just using it to gain field advantage as a partisan hack.
His goal isn’t the actual position (which may actually be a position very close to one he actually held at one time), it is just the cover it gives him to achieve his current goal of smearing the other side – the issues are the means, the goal is the politics. For true moderates the issues must be the goal.
He’s a partisan hack.
RW
Well, well, well.
I visit Margolis’ site and I see that our good friend Oliver participated in a small get-together. That’s great.
But…..that was the infamous face-to-face encounter that I’ve been attempting to educate Oliver about for at least 6 months and he had his opportunity to display his “I’m not afraid to tell it like it is” personna that was adopted when Brock came a’calling and………well, they sorta shriveled up like grape seeds when it came to an actual human being across from you, didn’t they Oliver?
Just like I said.
Doesn’t look like you took the opportunity to throw around the “Margolis is dumb” bombs that come so easy when it’s done via a keyboard. No “what a liar”, no “right-wing idiots”, no “handkerchief heads” that are a staple of the cyber-brave. Instead, it appears that you conducted yourself as an adult.
Just like I said.
All that trash-type was nothing more than your taking advantage of the situation and putting on airs for a newfound moonbat audience, for when push came to shove the testicular fortitude necessary for you to recite some of the stuff that comes so easy when no one else is around was lacking.
Just like I said.
Well, instead of taking the opportunity to attack, I welcome the development and hope that it envelopes into future instances. One is perfectly free to type whatever they please, especially on their own site, but that makes the person responsible for those words and you never know who you’ll meet face to face.
Just like I said.
Keep in mind that there are crazies on the left, right, and middle and it’s not worth the hassle of dealing with one of them when they decide to confront an internet bomb-thrower. It’s much easier to just be an adult, instead. Disagreements are fine and vehement debates are usually encouraged. Trash-typing from the comfort of one’s PC is illustrative of the intellectually weak who find it one of the few outlets to display any semblance of testosterone. And, pretty much anyone can do that (lord knows I’ve made a few statements that I’d like to rescind).
Good to see the civility. Be wise, folks.
Oliver
Unlike you, Ricky, I don’t go around saying I’m gonna kick people’s asses. I told Margolis he was dumb on the blog, and I’ll do it again. Unlike yourself I don’t think that means flexing muscles and making threats. Please stop lying about me Ricky, its quite unbecoming. I haven’t changed one position or my tone since the day I started blogging.
Oliver
Frankly, if anything, it was Margolis who toned down his invective from the blog.
RW
Cite the source, Oliver. That’s about 10. Cite the source. I’m mocking you because I bet you can’t but are lowered to making false allegations because you’re not intelligent enough to debate in a cohesive manner.
Cite the source, Oliver. I dare you.
Yeah, it’s much easier to type, isn’t it?
What a tough guy. You’ll TYPE it.
You’re so busted. Heh.
Just like I said.
RW
And with that, I’ll sign off from this thread because (1) you haven’t any sources to cite as pretty much everyone knows that you make things up on the fly when you’re losing an argument; (2) your trash-typing has been outed; (3) so has your cowardice.
Have a nice day, Oliver. Can’t say that you didn’t deserved that busting but I don’t like kicking a man when he’s down any more than I like feeding trolls.
Oliver
Busting? Perhaps in your own diseased mind, I suppose. Then again, if I were you I’d spend more time with my loved ones than making things up on blog comments. But thank god, I’m not you.
Oliver Witless
That’s right, Rick, you should spend more time with my loved ones! CHK-CHK, BLAAAAOWW!! I win again.
derek
This is why Canadians hate Americans.
No. Thats why you hate Americans. The majority us don’t listen to single post rants submitted by a 13 year old idiot.