I re-read what I have written and so far, and I want to add that I am sorry about the tone of the previous two posts. I understand that while this issue has been co-opted by the anti-abortion zealots, there are many people out there who simply just want her to live because of a profound respect for human life.
That is admirable, and I respecgt that, but this really is none of your business. I don’t respect those who are willing to lie about Terri’s possibilities to recover, and I don’t respect the people who have chosen to use Sciavo as a weapon. I understand her parents passing out all sorts of misinformation. I understand her parents clinging to false hopes and letting what they wish get in the way of reality. They love their daughter, and they have fooled themselves into thinking the shell of a human being lying there is still their daughter.
Terri Schiavo is brain dead, through no fault of her husband. Her husband, acting as her legal guardian, has made his choice. The court has enforced that decision. It is time for everyone else to get out of the way.
And one more thing- the courts weigh evidence and have concluded she is brain dead and in a persistent vegetative state. Not once, not twice, but repeatedly.
*** Update ***
Never mind. I am not sorry about the tone. I am watching the Schindler lawyer, David Gibbs, on Hardball, and this jackass just stated that “Terri tries to say ‘I love you’ to her mother.”
Assholes. Lying, unethical, assholes.
Now this sick son-of-a-bitch is suggesting Michael Schiavo caused the injury through abuse and that he wants his wife dead to spend the maplractice settlement money on himself, which is a flat-out lie.
This type of human filth should not be allowed to practice law.
Chuckg
Why do you assume that they’re lying? Why is it that your thinking always stops at ‘the court said so’?
This is the same court that’s refused to hear witnesses, refused to order any further tests, refused to do anything but take the one doctor’s word for it — and /that/ doctor didn’t even run an MRI.
Perhaps it’s more likely that the vast majority of the conservative blogosphere has an actual reason to doubt the wisdom of the court’s ruling, and *not* that you’re the sole intelligent person in a sea of umpteen thousand liars and fools.
John Cole
Fine. They are telling the truth.
And tomorrow, miraculously, in the space where her cerebral cortex USED TO BE BUT IS NOW NOTHING BUT cerebral fluid, a brand new brain will grow.
Terri will then juggle four balls while singing Amazing grace and hopping up and down on one foot. For dinner she will have a steak- because she has just been dying to eat red meat for the last 15 years. IN fact, that was what she was trying to mouth to her mother- ‘red meat.’ She just couldn’t get it out.
And then I am going learn how to fly by flapping my arms. And then I will snap my fingers and wipe out world poverty and end all wars. And then I will go home and sleep with my wife, Angelina Jolie.
All of this has an equal probability of happening.
And why are they lying? Because Terry Schiavo is a pawn for these people in the abortion debate. Plain and simple.
willyb
Whatever happened to the conventional wisdom that human beings only use about 10% of their mental capabilities.? How do you know Terri Shaivo wants to die under the current set of circumstances that define her life? If she had prepared a legal document that specified what she wanted to happen in a set of circumstances that are similar to her current situation, I would agree with you. She did not.
And while I am sick and tired of the media circus that has surrounded this unfortunate situation, I believe that no actual harm is being done if her parents are allowed to feed and care for the life that Terri has at this point in time. What am I missing?
John Cole
“What am I missing?”
Ummm… Terry and Michael Schiavo’s wishes.
But that really doesn’t matter to my party- thy just plan to insert Tom Delay and Dan Burton in between every husband and wife.
J Bowen
What difference does it make if Ms. Schiavo’s defenders include some people you don’t like? Have you audited the ones who want to kill her too?
May you always have terrific health. But if you don’t, who do you want determining what is wrong and what to do about it? Courts?
If you want human filth that shouldn’t be allowed to practice law, try Felos from Schiavo’s side and Greer from the bench. Have you examined their souls to make sure they have all the proper motivations and don’t have any associations you don’t approve of?
Why doesn’t Schiavo divorce her? IMO it’s because he doesn’t want to lose control of the disposition of her remains. He has something to hide.
Incidentally, you’d better make your wishes clear on this topic. Otherwise someone might look at this blog someday and misunderstand your intentions. If they did, at least they would be working from more documentary evidence than Michael Schiavo has ever offered about his wife’s intent.
Chuckg
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/frist200503181027.asp
Please note, in addition to being Senate Majority Leader, Bill Frist is also a medical doctor.
What’s your source for the “BAGS OF FLUID WHERE HER BRAIN USED TO BE”? The unconfirmed diagonosis of one doctor, not even a certified neurologist, who didn’t even use an MRI?
And stop yelling like you can drown out the opposing POV just with all caps.
John Cole
May you always have terrific health. But if you don’t, who do you want determining what is wrong and what to do about it? Courts?
Umm. How bout the Courts, her physicians, and her husband, as is the case here?
Why doesn’t Schiavo divorce her? IMO it’s because he doesn’t want to lose control of the disposition of her remains. He has something to hide.
Nothing more than a vicious, unfounded, unwarranted, venomous accusation with a shred of proof or evidence. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Chuckg
Oh, btw, if you read that link, you’ll notice that among other things, 15 board-certified neurologists have signed affadavits saying that in their professional opinions, there is something really smelly going on in that place where all the Danes hang out.
I suppose they’re all stupid, ignorant, deluded liars too. Whereas you are Aesculapius reborn.
John Cole
I am not trying to drown you out- I just want you to notice it.
You did, and ignored it.
And it appears I have no reason to worry should I end up in the same position on as Terry Schiavo. All you buttinski’s have shown your willingness to keep me alive for an extra 30-40 years of nonresponsive drooling.
Thanks.
Chuckg
I did not ‘ignore it’. I pointed out that over a dozen board-certified neurosurgeons do not agree with the diagnosis of PVS, and at minimum would require substantial further testing before they would consider it substantiated.
Given that your entire argument is based on the alleged accuracy of that diagnosis, that’s not something you can laugh off.
willyb
How do you know what Terri’s wishes are? How do you know Terri told her husband what her wishes were? And if she did tell him, how do you know she didn’t change her mind at a later time, but prior to entering her present state?
I agree that this whole situation is unseamly, and that the folks that profess to respect life (generally Republicans) are dragging this out, but I am not convinced that Terri’s wishes are actually being respected by the Courts and her husband.
Chuckg
Errr, that ‘respect for life’ is precisely why we don’t want to see the plug yanked on Terri Schiavo until it’s actually, totally, and completely certain that:
a) she’s truly in an unrecoverable state of PVS
b) those were genuinely her wishes.
Despite Mr. Cole’s dogmatic stubbornness on the issue, there actually are grave reasons to doubt both… most especially a).
Seriously. More neurosurgeons have signed affadavits challenging this diagnosis than handwriting experts signed affadavits challenging the CBS memos. Including one Nobel Prize nominee. What are we *supposed* to go, just *ignore* that?
The ‘sanctity of life’ includes making damn sure you’re not killing anyone you don’t need to.
Birkel
John,
I agree with the substance (if not the tenor, sorry to say) of your position but still find myself troubled by the fact that the courts have ordered Terry Schiavo (or what was formerly Terry Schiavo) to starve to death.
Although I don’t think she’ll feel it, I can’t be sure. And it really bothers me that she’s just gonna lie there and starve to death. Somehow it’s just too gruesome for my sensibilities. For me, it’s kinda like partial birth abortion which just strikes me as gross and beyond the pale, somehow.
At the same time I’m bothered by the wasted expense dedicated to perpetuating Schiavo’s body’s existence. And it seems silly to me to preserve the family’s self-imposed cognitive dissonance with the ridiculous claims that Schiavo tries to do anything. What was uniquely her is gone and it cannot be recovered.
Basically, I’m just bothered by the whole thing and am sad that such decisions must be made. I think sadness is the order of the day…
John Cole
Birkel- It is sad. She should have been allowed to die peacefully and with dignity years ago.
And she won’t feel anything, so it is actually less gruesome than it sounds (although it is awful). Her cognitive centers are not there, so she will not feel pain or comprehend suffering.
I wish she were going to recover- but she isn’t and she and her husband should be left alone.
Birkel
John,
I agree that it would have been better had this not dragged out so long.
I, unlike you, cannot convince myself that there is no feeling in the form that used to contain Terry Schiavo. I appreciate your position and hope it is right!!
And I would be saddened less if they were to administer a quicker death.
My question: Why are we so gutless as to avoid killing her body more quickly?
John Cole
Because we can’t have an honest debate about assisted suicide… Look at what is going on here- a brain dead woman can’t even be left alone to die without the intervention of the know-it-all moralists in my party.
Do you really think they are going to let an honest debate on euthanasia? Look what they tried to do to Oregon..
Chuckg
We are not trying to stop a brain-dead woman’s assisted suicide.
We are challenging the assumption that the woman is genuinely brain-dead.
There are significant reasons to doubt such an assumption.
Refer back to my prior posts for more detail.
J Bowen
Without a shred of proof or evidence? Hardly. The bedsores and other evidence of neglect as a minimum show that Terri Schiavo’s care has been inadequate at best. And who’s in charge of it? And why would he seek to deny her parents access to her?
Incidentally, did you know that Michael Schiavo is an RN? He should know how to give better care. If his motivation is to see that his wife’s wishes are honored (what a prince! – *now* who’s demagoguing?), somehow I’d expect that he’d take better care of her until the end.
Or did she express a wish to be neglected too? What are we to conclude from the fact that he hasn’t taken better care of her than he has?
So now at least we know who should be ashamed for making accusations.
bg
Bill Frist, who is a doctor…
Bullshit. Bill Frist is a hack who claims he doesn’t know whether HIV can be spread through sweat or tears.
John Cole
J Bowen- So are you now the accusa dropping the accusation that he caused her injury and moving on to baseless neglecgt allegations?
Again- don’t forget to email me and Dan Burton for instructions on your family’s health care.
Chuckg
Dr. Peter Morin. M.D., neurosurgeon, researcher in degenerative brain diseases at Boston University.
Dr. Thomas Zabiega, University of Chicago.
Dr. Mack Jones, neurologist, Walton Beach, FL.
Dr. William Bell, professor of neurology, Wake Forest Medical School.
All of these men, and more, have gone on the record questioning the completeness and accuracy of Terri Schiavo’s diagnosis.
I look forward with morbid interest as to what reasons you will trump up to handwave them all away as ‘hacks’ too.
Birkel
Unlike Chuckq I do not doubt that she is brain dead, John.
But it’s still awful that she can’t die more quickly.
And don’t say “my party” when you mean our party. :)
space
This post is 100% correct. I too respect the opinions of people who absolutely oppose pulling the plug…even in cases where there is no functioning brain and no chance of recovery. But I can’t stand liars and opportunists. Not to mention the disgusting smearing of the husband.
space
Incidentally, was the “filth” comment a swipe at Oliver Willis? Just curious.
Just Passing Through
John,
The condition of PVS is not the same as the condition of brain dead. Brain dead implies that the damage to the brain is such that not only voluntary brain functions have ceased as in a state of PVS, but that autonomous functions have also ceased. In brain death, there is no discernable electrical activity in the brain. A respirator/ventilator is required to substitute for autonomous lung function. The respirator with the addition of drugs is required to maintain the blood pressure regulation that the heart ganglia needs to keep the heart beating and to prevent congestive heart failure. The issue can become even more complicated. It is not unknown nor is it even rare that people on respirators who have the plug pulled begin to breathe on their own. They move from brain dead status to a PVS status as a result.
Terry Schiavo is not brain dead. EEGs have shown electrical activity in her brain. She is not on a respirator. There are no extraordinary measures being taken to preserve her life along the lines of DNR – Do Not Resusciate – instructions common in ICUs. In those cases, no efforts to restart a failed heart are taken for instance – no Code is called – but extraordinary measures DO NOT include providing sustenance or preventing dehyrdration.
As long as Terry Schiavo can survive with no more extradinary measures taken than the same given many thousands of nursing home residents daily and she is herself incapable of giving instructions to the contrary, she should not be forced into heart failure which is what starving her or allowing her to dehydrate will do.
Someone elses determination that your quality of life is insufficent to warrant compassionate care doesn’t make it either. That sort of road once taken can lead to some heinous results. Michael Schiavo may want closure, but not at the expense of his wife’s life. Let him turn over the decision to the people who are focused on hope rather than closure.
bg
So you agree that Frist is a hack, right Chuck?
J Bowen
J Bowen- So are you now the accusa dropping the accusation that he caused her injury and moving on to baseless neglecgt allegations?
First you’ll have to show me where I made an “accusation”, rather than acknowledging a possibility in an attempt to explain Michael Schiavo’s behavior. A healthy 25 year old woman suddenly has trouble with oxygen while alone with her hubby, and we can’t consider the possibility of foul play? Why would he want a court order to keep her parents out and to prevent taking pictures or video of her? Why does he want to cremate her immediately without an autopsy?
Hey, maybe Michael Schiavo is the saint he’d have us believe he is. Maybe he’s really more concerned with fulfilling her wishes than her own family is. He’d be more convincing if he hadn’t already had 2 kids with another woman.
Given only his and his relatives’ late-breaking and self-interested word that she would have wanted to die, IMO there is enough doubt for me to say that I will err on the reversible side, ie, I’d keep her alive. If she’s as clueless as you suggest, she’ll never know the difference, right? But if she isn’t…
John Cole
J Bowen- You can consider foul play all you want, while I reserve the right to laugh at you. She had a hearft attack caused by a serious potassium imbalance brought on my bulemia. That is, after all, why he won the malpractice suit…
JPT- Yes- she does have autonomous response. If you were to yell really loud while in the room with her, her eyes might widen. That is the source of these ‘viedos’ that claim to show how alive and vibrant she is. They film her for 6 hours drooling on herself, not responding to anything, and then splice the tape to show a clip of an autonomous physical behavior as ‘proof.’
But as far as the thinking parts of her brain, she has flatlined.
Just Passing Through
John, no one is disputing the fact that EEGs show brain function and the brain is not understood well enough to make the claim that the thinking areas have flatlined.
PVS does not imply extraordinary measures be taken to preserve life. Sustenance is not considered such. This is a slippery slope that the legislature should not have become involved in and wouldn’t have if the courts were not calling this wrong. The court should have not have called it this way without far more definitive evidence of Terry’s wishes that measures short of extraordinary not be taken to preserve her life. This is the real issue. It is not unplugging a respirator required to stave off physical death that being talked about here. It is denying sustanence.
With all due respect, I think that you are on the wrong side here. Giving closure to someone who can only be thought of as her ex-husband does not justify getting on that slippery slope.
There is a saying I heard long ago that is germane when considering second or third parties making deposition of someone’s right to live based on quality of life.
‘The only people who say that they wouldn’t want to live to be 100 are those who aren’t 99.’
Living wills with provisions against extraordinary life preserving measures are not written with the advantage of perspective that that 99 year old guy has, but they are legal and binding. Relating what is nothing more than positions taken in casual conversation does not constitute a Living Will. Even the fact that nothing remotely close to a Living Will is in this mix begs the fact that the measures being taken up to preserve her life up this point were not extraordinary.
Scott Chaffin
…they have fooled themselves into thinking the shell of a human being lying there is still their daughter.
You’re about as full of shit as a Christmas goose with that one. PVS or not, jelly-brain or not, not even a shadow of her former self or not — she’s still their daughter. She’ll be their daughter after they bury her court-ordered-starved-to-death body, too. Denying that relationship is gross arrogance and frankly disgusting.
Also: moaning about Big Govt. Republicans trying to stop the wholly-unnecessary court-ordered execution of an innocent lady is the height of something…sadness, hilarity, irony, I don’t know. Bitch all you want about lawyers, and I’ll agree, but let’s not let that get in the way of the facts. It is unnecessary, it is an execution, and it is ordered by the state. Welcome to hell, American-style.
Fargus
Bill Frist also refused to say whether or not he thought you could contract AIDS from saliva and tears.
JKC
J Bowen mentioned bedsores as “proof” of “inadequate care.” What the bedsores really are is the inevitable result of Terri Schiavo’s complete inability to move on her own. It has nothing to do with adequacy of care, or with the silly argument about whatever cognitive function the poor woman may or may not have left.
It will, however, along with infection at the insertion site of her g-tube and/or her foley catheter, be what kills her if her artificial feedings are forced to continue by a bunch of ignorant, meddling fools: i.e Randall Terry, Bill Frist, and their fellow travellers.
Neal
It would be so easy for me to take the husbands side on this issue IF they allowed three independent doctors to come in and give their opionions….That would shut everyone up. But for some reason this judge is keeping anyone from even giving her an MRI. In the end the husband should win out. As conservatives we go on and on about States rights and the sanctity of marriage. Honor it and back off.
John Cole
I think I am the last conservative- my party appears to have been co-opted by a bunch of big government nanny-state types.
What else can be said of the party leadership that gave us the prescription drug bill and then, in one week, has inserted itself into the Schiavo’s marriage and failed to do anything about Medicaid?
Tammy in Texas
And why are they lying? Because Terry Schiavo is a pawn for these people in the abortion debate. Plain and simple.
And is it not possible that she’s a pawn for the right-to-die/euthanasia debate? If that’s the case, wouldn’t they have as much reason to put out misinformation about her condition as the other side?
TnTexas
You did, and ignored it.
He didn’t ignore it. He asked why you were willing to take the word of one doctor who wasn’t a neurologist who was making a diagnosis from what is basically a fuzzy picture. Why ignore his question?
Scott Chaffin
Yeah, you’re the last conservative, John. Don’t throw your shoulder while you’re patting yourself on the back, or your wife may decide that your quality of life has degraded to the point that you need to be starved to death.
Cue Monty Python : “But I’m not dead yet.”