I agree and disagree. The Instapundit:
I APPRECIATE Andrew Sullivan’s quoting me, but he’s wrong: Unlike Andrew, I don’t think that America is in danger of being taken over by religious Zealots, constituting an American Taliban and bent on establishing theocracy. I think that — despite their occasionally abusive emails (and most aren’t abusive, just upset) — the people that Mickey Kaus is calling “pro-tubists” are well-meaning, sincere, and possessed of an earnest desire to do good. I don’t think that they’re nascent Mullah Omars, and I think that calling them that just makes the problem worse. This is a tragedy, and it’s become a circus. Name-calling just makes you one of the clowns.
But I do think that process, and the Constitution, matter. Trampling the Constitution in an earnest desire to do good in high-profile cases has been a hallmark of a certain sort of liberalism, and it’s the sort of thing that I thought conservatives eschewed. If I were in charge of making the decision, I might well put the tube back and turn Terri Schiavo over to her family. But I’m not, and the Florida courts are, and they seem to have done a conscientious job. Maybe they came to the right decision, and maybe they didn’t. But respecting their role in the system, and not rushing to overturn all the rules because we don’t like the outcome, seems to me to be part of being a member of civilized society rather than a mob. As I say, I thought conservatives knew this.
He is right, for the most part- most of the deeply religious people I know and most of the people who really want Terri Schiavo to stay alive and are motivated religion are, as I have stated repeatedly, “well-meaning, sincere, and possessed of an earnest desire to do good.” They are decent, honest, hard-working, good Americans- people you would be proud to live next door to, people you would gladly call your friend, people you would rely upon in a crisis, people you would trust with your children, and people you wouldn’t mind having as in-laws. For goodness sakes, check my blogroll- you will find a number of committed, decent, deeply religious individuals.
Where he is wrong is misdiagnosing the pernicious threat posed by the fringe elements within the Conservative Christian movement- the Randall Terry’s, the people flooding the airwaves calling Michael Schiavo a terrible husband, the people allowing their ten year old children to be arrested outside terri Schiavo’s hospice, the people who think they own the Republican Congress and can get them to ‘trample the Constitution’ at will- they are a threat and they do want a theocracy.
What more proof do you need than the fact that the bill passed Congress and they had enough power to drag Bush back to the White House to sign it. This is a problem, and there is going to be violence when Terri Schiavo dies.
Francis W. Porretto
No need to wait. There’s violence now. It’s happening to Terri Schiavo.
And no, I am not motivated by religious belief, merely by the conviction that even a disabled person who can’t communicate is entitled to the presumption of a right to life.
NoIvory
I hadn’t thought about violence entering in. But I think that’s a big possibility now that you mention it. I think this case magnifys the importance of having a living will. That way everyone stays out of your business but you and your designated driver.
Meezer
Yep. Violence. Just like all the Jews that were going to be killed by people going home from “The Passion of the Christ.” I must have missed the headlines. How many were there?
John Cole
I fear that the Mahoney’s and the Reandall’s are going to whip someone into a Paul Hill sort of frenzy.
This sort of thing is not unprecedented.
And for the record, I was supportive of The Passion and ridiculed those who predicted violence and those who tried to use it to foment violence.
AT
203 House members, including 47 Democrats, are all fring religious nuts? The nuts put a gun to Bush’s head and made him sign it?
Yep, another year and we’ll be stoning women accused of adultery.
Jorge
—Yep. Violence. Just like all the Jews that were going to be killed by people going home from “The Passion of the Christ.” I must have missed the headlines. How many were there?—-
http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2005/3/25/75784.html
“Suspect’s plan to storm hospice foiled
Friday, March 25, 2005
Deputies say an Illinois man planned to storm Schiavo’s Pinellas Park hospice to try to “rescue” her.
Michael Mitchell, 20, visited the hospice Wednesday. On Thursday, he went to a gun store on Seminole Boulevard with a box cutter. The owner of the store held Mitchell at gunpoint after he allegedly tried to steal a gun.
When deputies arrived at the scene, Mitchell fled, but was later found at a shopping center on U.S. 19 and Gulf to Bay Boulevard.
After checking with Illinois police, it was determined Mitchell was a missing and endangered adult. He now faces charges of armed robbery, aggravated assault and criminal mischief.”
Meezer
I misinterpreted your statement that “…there is going to be violence when Terri Schiavo dies.” as meaning a general, more-than-one-nut, violence. I appologize.
Meezer
Sorry, last comment. Jorge, an “endangered adult” is usually not considered competent for “self-care” and is at risk of physical abuse.
Not exactly the average upset citizen.
(definition from my sister, a LMSW)
Steve Malynn
John, any evidence of any plan to subvert the constitution? Man, get a grip, your obsessive federalism is pushing you towards dKos territory.
Mike
They already caught some nut in Rockford, IL who tried to steal guns to “rescue” her.
http://www.nbc5.com/news/4317284/detail.html?z=dp&dpswid=2265994&dppid=65172
Grape Alley
“…they had enough power to drag Bush back to the White House to sign it.”
Who you kidding? He got out of his jammies and into a suit for the opportunity. Can you ate least hold him accountable for something?
David
Why is the ‘right to die’ crowd keep asking “Well, would you want to live this way?” and then citing poll results showing that no rational person would. Why not ask “Well, would you want to die this way? Be denied food and water until your organs fell and your stomach is disolved by its own acid” Does anyone wonder what the results of that poll would show? As much as I wouldn’t want to live the way terri is living, I would even less like to die in the method that is being imposed upon her to die.
p.s. Don’t answer Terri’s in PVS cause then both questions are meaningless.
KevinA
I fear the same thing John. One phrase has been pounding in my head: “For every action, a reaction.” My point?
Well, hard as it is, the long-term consequences are potentially frightening. Do the hardcores supporting the Schindlers just say that “government has let us down?” And if so, do these nuts a) disengage from politics, or b) start a true jihad?
More plainly, do these people resort to violence to “overthrow the heathens in government?” Yes, I’m suggesting a small possibility that we may face a new sort of domestic terrorism. Afterall, they’ve shown they don’t care about silly things like “laws.”‘
I’m a moderate Democrat, and I assure you we have our own nuts (MoveOn, Moore, some at DailyKos). You’re doing the right thing by fighting the nuts. Some of us our doing the same on our side.
AT
Yep, that’s it, Kevin A. One day, people act on their consciences through the legislative and judicial processes to fight what they see is a terrible injustice, the next day they’re blowing up school buses and shooting crowds.
How DO you sleep at night.
KevinA
^^Just fine, THANK YOU.
Note the use of “long-term consequences.” Most who oppose what is happening to Schiavo will peacefully move on.
But I do think a small faction could become so despondent, that overthrowing the US Gov’t may be an option
AT
Then Kevin, maybe you should buy several firearms to defend yourself.
typical republican
we are a nation of men, not laws.
KevinA
^^AT: I’m not the US Gov’t. I hold no gov’t job, nor do I work in gov’t buildings. I’ll br fine, though your “concern” is touching.
typical republican: “WTF?”
Sincerely,
The Founding Fathers, Barry Goldwater, the old GOP.
Well there you have it kids. The law no longer matters. Matter of fact, I think I’ll go loot my neighborhood and just say I’m so poor I had no choice. I mean, a “nation of men, not laws” will understand, right?
Jaybird
Apparently, Terri yelled something like “AWA” today.
Please pay no attention.
It’s obviously not an attempt to communicate. The courts have determined that communication is impossible for someone in her state.
She should hurry up and die and stop making nonsense syllables that stupid Randall Terry followers will predictably assume to be a request from a brain damaged person for water.
I mean, it’s so obviously not.
The court has decided it can’t be.
Ron Phelps
The fringe elements??
“Where he is wrong is misdiagnosing the pernicious threat posed by the fringe elements within the Conservative Christian movement- the Randall Terry’s”
I don’t know. I am from jerry falwell’s town in lynchburg Va. The republicans are religious nuts and the democrats are republicans.
Fringe… I don’t know.
Is tom delay a fringe element. Is bush? he got up at 1 in the morning to sign that stupid law. Is he fringe.
How about hannity who hasn’t spoken a reasonable word in years. Is he fringe.
These guys control peoples minds.
I didn’t vote for bush because I saw he wanted death and money. What I really don’t understand is how some of you guys can seem so reasonable on here and voted the way you did. The republican congresses action on this florida case is entirely consistant. Fringe.????
no.. I don’t think so.
For instance, the ten states that the bankrupcy bill will hurt most are all republican. red states. Bush told you he was going to hit you up side the head for your own good. (I must admit.. I didn’t like kerry either.) what a dufus.
but he would not have passed the bankrupcy bill.
Lee
John:
I can attest to your ‘violence’ inuendo… As I attend Church on Sundays, i procede with caution. the old ladies who preach ‘love’ and kindness are truly frightening. The men I worship with… with their “Christian” beliefs, why, they don’t fool me. They pretend to be lawyers, insurance agents, surgeons, laborers…. but they don’t fool me. They are more dangerous that al queda. the fundamentalists need to be stopped.
Jeez, people; calm the f down about your ‘fear’ of Christians.
Paul
Ron Phelps:
“I didn’t vote for bush because I saw he wanted death and money”
You’re a world class fool. You’re credibilty is zero after such a statement. Stop wasting John’s bandwidth.
Ron Phelps
Paul.. maybe you should.
Ron Phelps
No .. let me restate that.
Explain your statement.
I’ll explain mine.
He wanted death and money.
Death = Money.
Sales of jets to India and pakistan perhaps.
Remember the sale of anthrax to saddam in the 80’s.
We did that to spread good will?
You and I don’t matter to those guys, Paul.
We are just pieces to be moved around on their chess board.
Playthings for them.
I suggest you wake up and lets get into some kind of useful dialog.
The Sanity Inspector
In a nation of 300 million people, there’s going to be some violent kooks. Watch, and be wary, but don’t let the inevitable nutters make you tar everyone.
Incog Neato
It is not the Christians we need to fear. It is those that profess themselves to be Christian…yet…whose actions show they are following a different leader altogether.
So far there has been the man trying to steal the gun, the man arrested for putting bounty out on her husband and any judges involved, and at LEAST one website calling for a violent overthrow of the hospice, killing any who get in the way.
Hopefully it will end when she passes.
But, I kinda doubt it.
Sue
OK City came about as a result of Waco. So, yes, there is a precedent for right-wing violence in response to disagreement with government action/non-action.
KevinA
^^SUE nails what I was attempting to say. Thanks.
BTW: Yes, different e-mail here as I’ve switched to DSL.