It isn’t just Democrats and a few moderates and libertarians who are furious at the divisive and cynical antics of Tom DeLay, Bill Frist, and their band of Holy Warriors. Other religious leaders, are, shall we say, a touch displeased by the antics of this narrow fringe of loudmouths who pretend to speak God’s will in the domestic political arena:
When some leading Christian conservatives threw their weight behind Republican efforts recently to speed Senate approval of judicial nominees of President Bush, they subtitled their widely viewed
Justin Faulkner
damn right.
Stormy70
How dare relgious people have an opinion about judges? They should lie back and take all this anti-relgious bigotry by the Democratic party. Last I checked, liberal to moderate churches were losing members since they mouth political platitudes instead of teaching from the Bible. I am not a religious person, I keep that private, but I am sick of this fear of religous people because they want to stick up for their beliefs. Whether you like it or not, Bill Pryor’s nomination is being blocked because Chuck Shumer thinks his Catholic beleifs are too deeply held. In other words, he is prolife becuase of his religious beleifs. Why is that not a religous test?
You say you don’t want these people telling you how to live? Fine, but these people have just as many rights in this country to lobby their own government. They pay their taxes, and have to live by the same laws as everyone else. This country used to be a much more “Christian” country, if they didn’t institute a Theocracy back then, why are you afraid of one today? Why do you think everyone fighting for these nominees are liars and frauds, or is that only reserved for the religious right? I didn’t realize we were in a religious war, do we have to wear identifying uniforms?
Nikki
Last I checked, liberal to moderate churches were losing members since they mouth political platitudes instead of teaching from the Bible.
Source?
shawn
Why worry?
Randall Terry: “I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good…Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism. When I, or people like me, are running the country, you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed.”
D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries: “Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost, as the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors — in short, over every aspect and institution of human society.”
Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991: “You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don’t have to be nice to them.”
Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-OK) Chief of Staff: “I’m a radical! I’m a real extremist. I don’t want to impeach judges. I want to impale them”
Lawyer/Author Edwin Vieira: his “bottom line” for dealing with the Supreme Court comes from Joseph Stalin. “He had a slogan, and it worked very well for him, whenever he ran into difficulty: ‘no man, no problem,’ ” Vieira said. The full Stalin quote, for those who don’t recognize it, is “Death solves all problems: no man, no problem.”
John Danforth, the former Republican senator and U.N. ambassador: “On issues from stem cell research to Terri Schiavo, our party has gone so far in adopting a sectarian agenda that it has become the political extension of a religious movement.”
Me: My faith does not require that I chisel it in stone and erect a monument to it. My faith does not require that I publicly shame and exclude those who believe differently than I do. My faith does encourage me to feel hatred and intolerance, but rather love and understanding. My faith is not threatened by questions or by people who believe differently. It does not need to be sanctioned by the government, nor bandied about by politicians for political gain. My faith is quiet and respectful and it leads me to distrust those who flaunt theirs or try to force it on others. My faith is not strengthened when it is entangled in politics.
I try to live my faith, not enforce it. I wish more people would do the same.
Ratan
Oh the irony.
Rick
few days before the April 24 rally, Bob Edgar, general secretary of the National Council of Churches, said the event should have been called
Mr.Ortiz
Stormy, read this: http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/66.htm
Read ALL of it.
45 years ago, Conservative Christians were foaming at the mouth at the idea of a Catholic President. See, they had this wacky idea that politicians should govern according to the law of the land, not their privately held beliefs.
If Pryor can’t separate his religion from his role as judge, as JFK did when he was President, then he shouldn’t be a judge, period.
Rick
If Pryor can’t separate his religion from his role as judge, as JFK did when he was President, then he shouldn’t be a judge, period.
But he already is a judge, and the liberal-ish ABA has no particular objection to him.
The only folks who make the point of your statement are propagandists like Shumer. Believe him at your peril.
Sure can fool some of the people all of the time.
Cordially…
Rick
Nikki,
Jeez, just Google “mainline Protestant decline.”
http://www.ecai.org/nara/nara_article.html
The immediate post World War II period, and especially the 1950s, witnessed a national “return to religion,” as a generation of suburbanites and their baby boom children joined religious congregations in unprecedented numbers. The mainline Protestant denominations
Libertine
HAHAHAHAHA…fundamentalist religious protestant, white males are being persecuted?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :-P
Seriously, there will be persecution if the wingnuts succeed in replacing the Constitution with the Bible. That is the rallying cry of the wingnuts…we have lost our way as a country because, in secular law we follow the Constitution instead of the Bible.
The wingnuts are against freedom in America, freedom represents evil to them. Fundamentalist religion of all stripes calls for strict, unquestioning, adherence to the dogma Church leaders impose on their followers. Freedom of thought is not an option. They want to control the judiciary…public schools (creationism) and the whole body politic.
Yes there is a cultural war and unless we take up political arms the wingnuts will win…who here wants a theocracy? :-(
Stormy70
They have a right to participate in politics, period. You don’t like what they are doing, then contact your congress critter or form a group of like minded people and fight back. Don’t rely on judges to pass your agenda, rely on Congress. Today, a judge ruled that a Congressional subpoena to an American citizen can be stopped by a request from the UN. He ruled in favor of the UN, over Congress! I think that is more dangerous than a judge who goes to church.
I can’t go two blocks without seeing 3 churches, yet somehow, we have interacial couples, gay couples, and people of every ethnic background living in harmony. They’re not scared of a THEOCRACY either. But, since this is Texas, they are all Republicans, so they don’t count. And I have never heard freaking Pat Robertson’s name come up in conversations with my Christian friends, some of which qualify as Fundies. I’ll let them know they need to check in for their marching orders, post haste!
Libertine
They absolutely have a right to participate in politics…no argument there Stormy. They don’t have the right if they do attain higher office to impose their religious beliefs on me or anybody else.
Mr.Ortiz
The only folks who make the point of your statement are propagandists like Shumer[sic]. Believe him at your peril.
The point of my statement is that no judge should hold their religious beliefs above constitutional law when acting in their official capacity as judges. I don’t know if Pryor does that, the “if” that started that sentence was a genuine statement of uncertainty.
As far as propogandists like Schumer go, I could point out that the conservative-leaning Washington Post Editorial Page called him “a parody of what Democrats imagine Mr. Bush to be plotting for the federal courts,” but the examples they cite aren’t particularly convincing. Instead, I’ll leave you with this quote:
“The challenge of the next millennium will be to preserve the American experiment by restoring its Christian perspective.” -William H. Pryor, Jr.
Rick
Mr. Ortiz,
Thanks. But a fuller quotation serves better:
The American experiment is not a theocracy and does not establish an official religion, but the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States are rooted in a Christian perspective of the nature of government and the nature of man. The challenge of the next millennium will be to preserve the American experiment by restoring its Christian perspective. Catholic writer George Weigel explains the nature of the crisis in this way:
Two decades into the third century of that experiment, it is no longer clear that the tricentennial anniversary of the Declaration of Independence will take place in a country living in continuity with its moral-cultural roots. Should the historic American attempt to achieve a vital democratic pluralism in which self-governance is possible (because the people have formed and sustained the moral habits – the virtues – necessary for self-governance) collapse; should the American experiment decay into a republic of established and governmentally enforced secularism; then the American experiment as understood by George Washington, James Madison, Abraham Lincoln, and Dean Acheson will have failed. The external forms of democracy – elections, legislatures, governors and presidents, courts – may remain, but they will be hollow. And their endurance over time will be dubious, at best. For the American people, required to divest themselves of their deepest convictions in order to enter public life, will no longer be able to give a persuasive public account of their commitment to democratic republicanism.
http://www.ago.state.al.us/issue/mcgill_grad.htm
What a scary, scary guy. Almost as scary as FDR leading the nation in prayer on an occasion or two in The War.
“Conservative-leaning” WaPo editorial page? E.J. Dione’s playpen? Surely you jest!
Cordially…
Nash
“”Conservative-leaning” WaPo editorial page? E.J. Dione’s playpen? Surely you jest!”
Of course, this reasoning means that another rag, videlicet, the NYT, is a raging rightwingnutathon for giving, say, a John Tierney a prominent spot in the sandbox.
So, did my argument actually advance the line, improve reasoning and create an aura of understanding? Because, as I always say, if dog, rabbit…
I’m curious, but only rhetorically for I’d be mortified if anyone felt the necessity to reply–but if one is frequently seen to be less than cordial with one’s remarks, as one so often is, why would one insist on the false label? Dishonest on top of disingenous is not a happy mix.
Libertine
Rick…my only question is where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights does it mention God, Jesus, the Bible or that the USA is a Christian nation?
All the additions of “God” happened almost a century after the Constitution was written…whether it be to the money or the pledge.
Libertine
Rick…my only question is where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights does it mention God, Jesus, the Bible or that the USA is a Christian nation?
All the additions of “God” happened almost a century after the Constitution was written…whether it be to the money or the pledge.
Libertine
Rick…my only question is where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights does it mention God, Jesus, the Bible or that the USA is a Christian nation?
All the additions of “God” happened almost a century after the Constitution was written…whether it be to the money or the pledge.
Libertine
Sorry for the double post…I didn’t think the first one took.
Mr.Ortiz
Thanks for the full quote, Rick. Obviously Googling someone’s name isn’t always the best way to get the dirt on them. However, I have to join Libertine in questioning Ryan’s assertion that the U.S. was founded on Christian principles. This country was born at the height of the Enlightenment, a period of great skepticism towards organized religion. Some of our founding fathers (especially Ben Franklin) were heros of the movement.
I’ve already stuck my foot in my mouth once with Google, but I’ll give it one more shot. If it fails again, I’ll just take it as proof of Google’s liberal bias:
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20050221&s=allen
Yes, I know The Nation is a very liberal source, but that paragraph sticks to the facts as far as I can tell. As always, feel free to prove me wrong.
Libertine
Actually I like this quote by Jefferson… ;-)
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.
Mr.Ortiz
I really did just find that article by googling for “enlightenment” and “founding fathers”. I didn’t even finish reading it before I posted the link, but I just did and I highly recommend it. If you don’t like The Nation’s liberalism, then just read the parts in quotes ;).
Here are some choice nuggets:
[James] Madison believed that “religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize.” … “What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
“The day will come,” [Thomas Jefferson] predicted … “when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
John Adams (writing to Thomas Jefferson): “I wish that Superstition in Religion exciting Superstition in Polliticks…may never blow up all your benevolent and phylanthropic Lucubrations,” but that “the History of all Ages is against you.”
Libertine
Very good quotes Mr. Ortiz!!!
Here is another from Jefferson.
“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own” (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).
Here is a link to a good Jefferson quote page.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qjeffson.htm
And one for Madison.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm
It is a good site with a ton of great info on how the Founders wanted separation of chuch and state.
Libertine
Very good quotes Mr. Ortiz!!!
Here is another from Jefferson.
“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own” (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).
Here is a link to a good Jefferson quote page.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qjeffson.htm
And one for Madison.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm
It is a good site with a ton of great info on how the Founders wanted separation of chuch and state.
Libertine
Damnit another double post…like I am somekind of n00b. My apologies a second time… :-(
Al Maviva
I prefer a quote from Chuck Schumer.
“It’s not anti-Catholic. We’re just opposed to people who hold those beliefs being judges.”
Jay
Christian Sects could solve real problems facing Our Great Nation:
Energy – Amish
Divorce – LDS
Health Care – Christian Science
Bingo! – (Catholic)