Not sure where this ranks in the annals of grievous insults to the American image like screwing up a news story about the Koran and a commode, but it can’t be good:
More than 2,500 pages of documents just released by the Army reveal instances of detainee abuse, including mock executions, by U.S. soldiers in Iraq…
In June 2003 an Army second lieutenant from the 1st Armored Division, identified in the redacted documents by the last name Yancey, and an unidentified sergeant were involved in two incidents in Iraq.
Witness statements from his platoon said Yancey took a boy detainee out of a truck and fired his weapon next to the detainee’s head.
In Yancey’s account to military investigators, he had fired at a pack of threatening wild dogs. But a witness from his platoon said they did not hear any dogs in the area.
Further investigation into the incident found that Yancey enjoyed administering “street justice,” according to witnesses who had seen him firing warning shots.
One soldier reported to investigators that Yancey “feels good when he scares people,” according to the documents.
LaShawn is probably going to shit a pink twinkie when she hears about the damned media reporting this. Remember:
Let me clear up one thing. Whether Americans flushed the Koran down the toilet is irrelevant. Newsweek should not have reported it, even if true. It
Will
First time reading your blog (just found it through a link at Ezra’s place) so I don’t know whether you’re being sarcastic with the Hersh quip or not. I’m not naive enough to be surprsied to find out he’s a controversial figure for Republicans, or at least the ones who supported the war, but I’ve never seen his credibility seriously called into question. Is there some concrete info out there I should be aware of?
P.S.
On a purely aesthetic note, I love the comment font you use. :)
TJ Jackson
I wonder why the Left doesn’t understand the difference between our troops and the religion of peace. The US doesn’t tolerate such abuse and makes the effort to both train its troops and to investigate violations while our enemies video tape their executions and mutilations. One thing about the jihaddie media they always know whose side their on. Americans should realize which side the American media is on as well.
rilkefan
“What he means of course, is he hopes the report is thinly sourced, and thus, bullshit [..]”
“Thinly sourced” means just that – thus “more likely wrong than well-sourced reports” – your take begs the question in my view. I’d guess from Glenn’s general disinterest in the torture etc. issue that he really means, “I hope I can dispute and then more easily ignore this in future”, but what do I know. Anyway, I hope that next time we hear a report about some atrocity from insurgents, his first reaction will be, “I hope this report is thinly sourced”.
Simon
TJ, you’re a sad little jackboot fascist. Please stop this crap right now. It’s lazy, ugly and beneath any real American. The American press is on America’s side. America is not the glowing picture of Bush you have in your closet shrine. One can believe it to be the greatest country in the world and criticize it at the same time. It’s one of many reasons how and why it stays great.
And please do wake up to the real world. We do tolerate such abuse. The current AG was promoted to that position after he gave Bush the legal advice that he could use torture if he felt like it. What about extraordinary rendition? Why is this a debate at all in our civilized, advanced society? And please spare the time of war crap. When exactly is this open-ended war going to come to a close so our media is allowed to go back to doing their job without being brow beaten by paranoid apologists like you? Some XX years down the road, we’ll finally get the true story of how we were torturing and killing POWs (many innocent) and how that maybe, just maybe that was why things were going so bad. There’ll be a little hand-wringing about ‘hearts and minds’ and what could have been, but then there’ll be a new war with a new generation of people like you to forget the past one more time.
sidereal
Meaning he hopes it isn’t true. I also hope it isn’t true, though given the preponderance and the existing convictions, I very much doubt it. What’s that CS Lewis quote that hilzoy likes to post? That you can know how far gone you are into hatred when you’re disappointed to find out claims of your enemy’s atrocities are false?
The danger is in wanting it to be false so much that you’re intentionally lazy about finding out.
Far North
I was taught that my country didn’t do to those accused of a crime what the Soviet Union, North Vietnam or East Germany did. I was taught that my country didn’t have gulags and that my country’s Armed Forces personnel didn’t torture prisoners. I was taught that my country didn’t hide what went on in prisons like the communists. I was taught that my country treated enemy POWs in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and basic human decency. I was taught that my country was morally superior because my country respected the basic premise of human rights. I was taught that the moral “high ground” always belonged to us.
I now watch my country’s leader’s embrace the reprehensible and indefensible practice of torture. I now watch my country’s leaders seemingly absolve themselves of sin by shipping prisoners to other world destinations so that they may be tortured. I now watch my country’s leaders sink into the same moral abyss that devoured those Godless Communists and (dare I refer to it) the German political party of the 1930s & 40s that embraced torture.
I now watch the new century conservative justify, applaud, excuse and defend the reprehensible and the immoral practice of torture. I now watch the new century conservative blame the media, the progressives, the French and every critical thinker in America for a torture policy that has effectively stripped us of our world standing as a nation of principals and morals. I now watch the new century conservative declare jihad against those who would question some of the president’s judicial nominations.
And anytime anyone speaks out against any of these things or expresses a concern over some of these issues, the new century conservative rises up in righteous indignation. According to the new century consevative, these “dissenters” are treasonous haters of the American military. They are against people of faith. Those that dare question these things, well, the new century conservative sees right through you. The new century conservative knows you are just trying to silence the poor, oppressed American Christian.
We loyalists to the US consitution, we supporters of a free (not a bought and paid for)press, we believers in America as the moral compass of the world, we want our country back. We believe that the temporary highjacking of our government by the selfish, greedy and morally reprehensible new century conservative is an abberration.
My prayer:
Please, God, don’t let these phony hypocrites remain the face of America. I love my country and still think that traditional american values can prevail.
Better yet, c’mon folks, let’s vote ’em out in ’06 and ’08
tom scott
I think that something that is overlooked or underplayed is that, just as with Abu Ghraib, the investigation was instigated by the military. You’ll notice also that the voices that corroborate the investigations emanate from young soldiers evidently offended by certain behaviors.
In Yancey’s account to military investigators, he had fired at a pack of threatening wild dogs. But a witness from his platoon said they did not hear any dogs in the area.
Further investigation into the incident found that Yancey enjoyed administering “street justice,” according to witnesses who had seen him firing warning shots.
One soldier reported to investigators that Yancey “feels good when he scares people,” according to the documents.
That subordinates and fellow officers feel compelled to comment leads me to believe that the behavior was aberrant and unlawful. Bravo to the members of the US military. This should be pointed out more forcefully by commentators.
tom scott
TJ is not a jack booted fascist. He brought up a very valid point. If our media constantly beats the drum about American excesses but glosses over the terrorist excesses what is the impression to the American people? You only need to look at Far North’s epistle to see the effect it has. Why does the media refuse to show the beheading videos? Why did the media halt the showing of the people jumping to their deaths at the WTC? So Simon answer that and leave the labels alone.
Aaron
Paraphrase: I sleep safely at night knowing there are hard men willing to do violence to protect me.
–Now, let’s see who can come up with the best re-phrasing for humor, .e.g.
I sleep safely at night knowing there are journalists willing to bring every conceivable violation by the hard men to light, and damn the end results.
Disclaimer: above is for humor only… of course I am against torture, killing, etc.
Maybe the US should start a selective draft of human rights lawyers etc., to attach to each unit. Or is that too close to having political officers?
Aaron
Exercise: Take 150,000 18-25 year old males. Arm them. Put them in a foreign country. I’m guessing we get about 1,000 crimes per year, easy.
It’s not an excuse, but what we are seeing is the press seize with glee what would happen in any army under any administration.
Simon
First of all, do you really want little kids to see the beheadings on the afternoon news?
Second, no one is ‘glossing over’ the terrorists’ excesses. Did the press gloss over the four contractor bodies hanging over that bridge in Fallujah? Nope.
The reason they refuse to show the beheading videos is the same reason they refuse to show the real death and destruction of any war. It’s because people can’t actually handle the real human effects of war. Should we show the beheading videos, but along with those, show all the footage of dead US soldiers and blown up innocent Iraqis, including women and children who happened to be hit by our stray bombs or the IEDs of the insurgents? There’s a lot of that footage, and something tells me if the news was showing the actual human damage done in this war, it wouldn’t be very popular. Instead, and I think it’s much worse, we get produced, sanitized footage of tanks rolling across the desert at night and bombs exploding far away in the distance, and very little human element whatsoever. War is a necessary evil and never something to cheer on or provoke bloodlust over. That’s what the other side does. In the end, John’s right. The best way to stop the media from reporting our bad deeds is to stop doing them. It’s called accountability.
And what was wrong with Far North’s epistle? The only thing I’d change is the repeated term “new century conservative”. It generalizes a little too much, but otherwise I think it’s right on.
Far North
T. Scott, good on you, mate! You saw right through the media’s constant drum about American excesses and their glossing over of terrorist excesses. Didn’t fool you, did it? Glad I read your post because now I realize that I’ve been fooled by the media.
In my third paragraph, second sentence of my last post, I made reference to the fact that the new century conservative seems to blame the media for so much of the bad stuff that happens. And here you are, labelling the media as the enemy.
Dude, do I know my shit, or what? Wow, I said you’d blame the media, and you blamed the media.
Sheesh, why didn’t the media show the beheading videos or people jumping out of the WTC? Maybe it was the same reson that they don’t show civilian or military casualties in Iraq or Afganistan.
Wait, wait! I know. It’s becasue the media is liberal. Read you like a cheap comic book again, Tom.
Far North
Simon,
Copy your note on my use of the term NC conservative (I went and used it again in my last post). I’m trying to differentiate the Bush, Cheney, Pat Roberston, Tom Delay religous conservatives with the social and fiscal conservatives of the 80s and early 90s. I get your point, though.
daniellep
Bagram, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo . .Have we had enough of this administration yet? I think torturing and killing innocent prisoners qualifies as ‘about enough’. Have a look at the Times.
From Tim Golden in NYT “Nor were the rules of engagement very clear. The platoon had the standard interrogations guide, Army Field Manual 34-52, and an order from the secretary of defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld, to treat prisoners “humanely,” and when possible, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. But with President Bush’s final determination in February 2002 that the Conventions did not apply to the conflict with Al Qaeda and that Taliban fighters would not be accorded the rights of prisoners of war, the interrogators believed they “could deviate slightly from the rules,” said one of the Utah reservists, Sgt. James A. Leahy.”
Democracy-building at its best. .?
John Thacker
Have a look at the Times.
Yes, I took a look. There was an incident in December 2002 involving two prisoners. Horrible, horrible treatment. The Army investigated and punished seven soldiers. Every detail of the Times’s article comes from the Army report detailing the investigation and punishment two and a half years ago.
I’m not so naive to believe that absolutely nothing like this would happen. Especially in the absence of absolute details of what is and is not allowed. Is firing one’s weapon near someone, but not at them, allowed? I could see people being unsure without detailed information. Yet when people try to discuss in detail exactly what the line is, others yell about how even discussing the line is condoning torture.
Killing of prisoners definitely happened in World War II. Certainly it wasn’t reported on so widely by the media, not that that’s an excuse. It is something that will happen in an organization. It would be suspicious if there were absolutely no cases of Army reports detailing isolated incidents, in fact. That seven soldiers are facing criminal charges could indeed be taken as evidence that the Army did deal seriously with the inevitable transgressions.
The better question is why is the Army just releasing the information now?
Presumably because in light of the Newsweek story, many media companies decided to run all the abuse stories that they could get their hands on, for a variety of reasons. Presumably they made FOIA requests. Presumably leakers (including those with partisan leanings) found it an opportune time. Presumably it’s topical.
Note that most of these things were leaks “obtained by the Times“, etc.
John Thacker
If you put a large number of people in an authority position, some of them will react poorly and reveal nasty, even sociopathic, tendencies. All these cases are things which were reported by members of a platoon, investigated by the military, and resulted in criminal charges.
It would be nice for our military to be completely full of saints, but it’s not. It never has been either. (Although at one time the media was reluctant to report on such things.) I see no evidence from this that the hierarchy is condoning it; quite the contrary.
Stormy70
Still don’t care that much about mistreated terrorists. Physical torture is not cool, though, and it sounds like the military is trying to stop it.
If the military is investigating these incidents, why the outrage? Sounds like the system is working. These soldiers are under tremendous stress and are in the middle of a war with fanatical terrorists, who torture, rape , and kill for a living. Things are going to happen, and the military is trying to investigate these incidents, and correct them. I don’t think the entire military should be beat over the head with the actions of a few soldiers. Do you people forget that most captured terrorists are liars, and it takes awhile to investigate all the allegtions they make.
Cecil Turner
We have ~150,000 servicemen in Iraq in harm’s way. They’ve processed tens of thousands of detainees. 108 died. Out of that total, more than half were justifiable, enemy action, or accidents. The military investigates those incidents, and where appropriate, disciplines the individuals involved. How many murders in New York since the war began? How many unsolved? Where’s the front-page coverage?
The enemy systematically flouts even the most basic laws of war. When the Administration makes a perfectly appropriate response (denying them POW rights), the media coverage is almost universally negative (and misleading on the law). Insurgents target civilians, take hostages, kill prisoners, and violate every single Geneva article repeatedly and systematically. The Western press digs through US courts-martial to report the most lurid details of violations for which soldiers are being punished.
Many Americans, and almost everyone in the Middle East, believe the Americans are the prime offenders. And under a barrage of half-sourced allegations and sensational photos, it’s not terribly surprising. Nobody expects Al Jazeera to have any balance, but for the life of me I can’t understand why our domestic press is acting like enemy propagandists. And recent polls on press credibility suggest I am not alone.
Pat
The media has no standards of decency. I only wish the FCC could regulate them for this crap.
I think we should make an example of the privates and specialists at the prison.
Our leaders already passed their accountability moment on November 2nd.
Who cares about 2 terrorists dying? They probably would have died anyway.
The only thing this hurts is the recruitment numbers.
John Dillinger
Do your part for recruitment and join up then Pat.
Pat
No JD, I’m too busy about to enter my senior year in college. Then off to grad school.
Maybe later I’d enlist, but right now it’s important to support our troops.
dave
My, my, that’s quite a head of indignant steam Mr. Cole has worked up here.
I guess I’d be more impressed if the motherfucker hadn’t played “good German” the past five years.
dave
Maybe later I’d enlist, but–
Piss off, you cowardly motherfucker. You’re a fucking coward like all the brownshirts.
You pricks will be the first ones spitting on the troops when they come home and let you know how much they hate collaborators like yourself…
John Cole
Welcome back, Dave.
Missed you!
tom scott
“the children” watching beheadings… Somehow I just knew that canard would be offered up.When it’s suggested that showing the “real” effects of the war is because “people can’t handle it” while completely inundating the airwaves with Abu Ghraib photos only serves to confirm the propaganda value. I was not blaming the media. I am merely asking that they provide some perspective. I don’t think that I’m far off in that request if this Tom Friedman (NYT) quote from Instapundit is any indication.
“The greatest respect we can show to Arabs and Muslims – and the best way to help Muslim progressives win the war of ideas – is to take them seriously and stop gazing at our own navels. That means demanding that they answer for their lies, hypocrisy and profane behavior, just as much as we must answer for ours. Is this respected media stalwart blaming the media?
It seems this blog is turning into a subsidiary of DU. At other times it it’s becoming as overwrought, nay, hysterical, as Andrew Sullivan.
dave
Maybe later I’d enlist, but–
Piss off, you cowardly motherfucker. You’re a fucking coward like all the brownshirts.
You pricks will be the first ones spitting on the troops when they come home and let you know how much they hate collaborators like yourself…
Pat
Dave, I fully suport the troops.
I think that a few rotten apples should not be allowed to spoil the whole bunch.
The media is perpetrating propaganda in order to try and hurt our Leader.
The media has no accountability to the people but our leaders do. They are our Protectors. Unfortunately, the media seems to think that our Protectors should be blamed.
JJC
The NYT article is truly horrifying. The Stanford Prison Experiment makes these occurrences almost understandable.
What is, if possible, even more horrifying to me is the smug, self-righteous attitudes and selective morality of some of the posters.
TJ Jackson said, “The US doesn’t tolerate such abuse and makes the effort to both train its troops and to investigate violations while our enemies video tape their executions and mutilations. ”
TJ, have you ever heard of the Abu Ghraib photos? Have you seen today’s Sun with the picture of Saddam Hussein in his BVDs? Are we better because we just take still pictures, not video?
Stormy70 said, “Still don’t care that much about mistreated terrorists.”
Stormy, do you care about innocent taxi drivers? Do you feel like it’s okay for us to do it because they do it?
How can some people sit here and try to justify the unjustifiable? Personally, I’d rather be beheaded than tortured, maimed and killed over a four day period.
Yep, beheading is sounding better all the time.
In my opinion, the most important part of the article is here:
These were not isolated incidents. The problem was systemic and started at the top.
Can the apologists here turn this around and say, “Well, it’s too bad those terrorists are maiming, torturing and killing Americans, but this is war, these things happen.”???
I still won’t agree with you, but at least you won’t be hypocrites.
Cecil Turner
“Well, it’s too bad those terrorists are maiming, torturing and killing Americans, but this is war, these things happen.”???
Oh, there’s a moral equivalency exercise for you. A handful of abuses out of thousands of prisoners processed, and the perpetrators being punished by the military justice system, is worse than systematic beheadings of civilian hostages because “I’d rather be beheaded than tortured.” Not terribly persuasive. This is an example of ineffective propaganda. Contrast that with the skillful blending of fact and innuendo in the Times piece, and recall the words of fearless leader:
“These were not isolated incidents. The problem was systemic and started at the top.”
Hmmm, okay. The Times drifted off-message a bit here: “But as the 519th interrogators settled into their jobs, they set their own procedures . . .”
Simon
Pat, George Bush is not your “Protector®” (the caps are scary, buddy). He should not be some father figure to you. And you are most definitely not his Protector. He is some guy we hired to run the country. It’s funny how all the apologists are ready and willing to burn a few individual troops when it’s clear that this was condoned at a much higher level. And forgive me for not really buying into an investigation where the Pentagon or Army investigates itself and clears itself (its higher-ups) over and over again.
Pat
Simon,
Our august Leader is the only person who can keep the Homeland safe. He is someone who ALL Americans should see as a role-model. His leadership protects our freedom.
The Pentagon is protecting America. Liberal journalists and Democrats are constantly trying to undermine our safety by constantly harping on everything that is wrong in Afghanistan and Iraq. They seem to easily forget who the good guys are here. God is with us, God is with our country and God is with our President.
Simon
I really don’t have much more to add to that, other than cult of personality much? You’re scary Pat.
Far North
Pat,
Did God tell you all this stuff? That he is with our President? Our country? Did God tell Bush to invade Iraq?
Finally, I’ve found a direct link to God. It’s Pat.
So Pat, what does God say we do about Cuba? North Korea? Or better yet, who does God like in the 05 World Series.
Your God is evil, Pat. And you are a tool of this evil. Now, go turn on Pat Robertson’s 700 club and witness the evil of organized religion.
Far North
And Pat, ask for a tuition refund from the fine college you attend. Your professor’s have failed you. Better yet, what college would accept a “critical thinker like yourself?
Pat
I did think of God when I voted for our President in the fall. And, like Rudy Giuliani said, every day I thank God that George Bush is our President.
I believe that our Leader’s hand is guided by our Lord. If He sees a threat to our Homeland, He should never hesitate to protect it. Bill Clinton, on the other hand, never was interested in protecting this country–only his own philanderous needs.
We need the media and the liberals to see the way to Peace is through this war on terror.
Simon
Pat, sorry I didn’t get your sarcasm until just now. I didn’t think anyone could be that crazy.
marie
Even if it was true, the dumb asses should be condemned for killing people over a flushed Koran. Would a Christian kill someone if their Bible got flushed?
Pat
But deaths would not have happened if Newsweek liked America
I think that the Fcc should regulate the magazines and newspapers for publishing this inaccurate filth.
I think that any journalist who deliberately tries to hurt our Homeland should resign.
Zorro
A picture is worth a thousand words:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050516/323/fixbz.html
Simon
Haha Pat! Can I play? Our Dear Leader not only recieves his Wisdom from the Lord God Himself, he is actually physically guided by the Holy Ghost, that ever forgotten Third Being of the Trinity. Now if only our press would stop trying to interfere with the Infinite Power of our Majestic Leader, He could apply that Power for all to see. Then we all will tremble before Him, the Lord Jesus
BushChrist. I just can’t figure out where the press is getting its power from. Could it be… Satan?Rick
Simon,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do believe you’ve lifted that almost word-for-word (not quite name for name) from an Eleanor Clift article back in ’93 analyzing the Clinton administration.
It does have a familiar ring.
Cordially…
Pat
Simon, I do take offense to your religious-based discrimination.
You atheists are always blaming Christianity and America first.
Our President is a man of faith in Jesus Christ. I do not worship Bush, however I am comforted by his faith in our Lord.
I do believe that a vote for George W. Bush is a choice for the faithful over the faithless.
We need to unite behind a strong Leader. The Democrats in congress should simply stay home if they do not support the strengh of our Protectors.
Simon
Sorry Rick, but I just wrote exactly what the Voice in my head told me to. Are you trying to persecute me and my religion by saying I got it from somewhere else?
Simon
Pat, sorry for your insecurity and paranoia, but I’m not discriminating against you based on religion. Atheist? Bah, I’m religious myself. I’m discriminating against you based on lack of reason and logical thought.
Have you ever thought that Christianity is not always perfect in the hearts of men and many killers in the past have claimed to be Christian. Have you heard of the “meek shall inherit the earth”? Too many Christians these days are just modern day Pharisees. Go back and read your Bible again, but pay attention this time.
Pat
Christ was not perfect. My Leader is not perfect. But I always love the sinner and hate the sin.
The Democrats see otherwise. That is why it would be a better country if there was only one political party, God’s Own Party. A party which stands for the American People, the Homeland, and our Leader.
When we have a national synergy and harmony, the glory of America will shine through.
Simon
I don’t believe for a second you’re serious, but I can’t get enough of talk like that. So in that regard, could you answer a few questions for me?
Did God mention the US (aka the Homeland) in the Bible? Do you know where the BS “love the sinner hate the sin” line comes from?
Wally
Asked today whether the New York Post and Sun cover photos of a shamed & near-naked Saddam Hussein might inspire some rage & violence in Iraq, Bush said:
Far North
So often, Bush says things that demonstrate that he is unfit to lead America. Here he says that he can’t comprehend how muslims think.
Bush has been in office for over 5 years now. Bush doesn’t have to agree with the way others think, but Bush sure as hell better comprehend and understand the way they think.
When a leader of a powerful country doesn’t comprehend how those in other countries think, he might do things like start wars for no good reason. He might create explosive situations because he doesn’t comprehend that others may be offended by certain actions.
Bush can’t comprehend the way his radical Islamists think? Isn’t it obvious that Bush can never win his precious war on terror?
smurd
Far North is quite right. I was also raised secure in the knowledge that Americans did not make a habit of this kind of thing.
I hear it said, frequently, that Iraq is NOT Vietnam. I remember Vietnam. Horrible as it was, it had nothing to compare with this business. NOTHING.
P.S. I just gotta ask this question: are Americans so ignorant of Islam that they don’t know that “Allah” is the same word Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use for “God”? Or that Muslims claim the same historical lineage as Jews and Christians — Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Solomon, David, Jesus?
Pat
You people have to stop criticizing our President. He is a Good Christian. He is a humble and loving man. I believe that he is the greatest President our nation has ever had.
Those of you who oppose him are evil incarnate. I Pray that we can use our laws to detain all those who oppose our Godly Leader.
Far North
Pat,
OK, OK, I get it now. You played the ignorant right wing christian so well that you got me. Good job.
davebo
Sure the military is looking into and prosecuting some of those involved.
But is that the way we absolve ourselves and our leadership of any blame?
Read the whole story.
“Military spokesmen maintained that both men had died of natural causes, even after military coroners had ruled the deaths homicides. Two months after those autopsies, the American commander in Afghanistan, then-Lt. Gen. Daniel K. McNeill, said he had no indication that abuse by soldiers had contributed to the two deaths. The methods used at Bagram, he said, were “in accordance with what is generally accepted as interrogation techniques.””
So it’s all taken care of right?
“Last October, the Army’s Criminal Investigation Command concluded that there was probable cause to charge 27 officers and enlisted personnel with criminal offenses in the Dilawar case ranging from dereliction of duty to maiming and involuntary manslaughter. Fifteen of the same soldiers were also cited for probable criminal responsibility in the Habibullah case.
So far, only the seven soldiers have been charged, including four last week.”
Last week. But hey, this is a two and a half year old story right?