Yeehaw- here is some post hoc justification of Homeland Security taking on movie piracy:
“John Stedman, a lieutenant in the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department in charge of IP violations, testified in front of the Senate Homeland Security committee that some associates of terrorist groups such as Hezbollah may be involved in copyright violations. According to CNET’s Declean McCullagh: ‘Even though Stedman’s evidence is circumstantial, his testimony comes as Congress is expected to consider new copyright legislation this year. An invocation of terrorism, the trump card of modern American politics, could ease the passage of the next major expansion of copyright powers’.”
The testimony showing this link:
“Some associates of terrorist groups may be involved in IPR crime,” Stedman said. “During the course of our investigations, we have encountered suspects who have shown great affinity for Hezbollah and its leadership.”
Steadman said he saw Hezbollah flags and photographs of the group’s leader in homes that he raided, coupled with anti-Israel sentiments on the part of those arrested.
Steadman also saw Heinz ketchup bottles. Since we know John Kerry is a communist and as good as a terrorist, and he is married to Teresa Heinz, who is connected to the Heinz ketchup fortune, all tomato based products will now be under the scrutiny of the Department of Homeland Security.
Everything is terrorism, so therefore, we should not protest any expansion of government powers. [/sarcasm]
BTW- Didn’t we just recognize Hezbollah as a legitimate political force or something?
Discuss.
*** Update ***
I am sorry- when we discuss handing new powers to the government, the phrase “may be connected to terrorism” just isn;t good enough for me anymore. Recent events have reminded me that suspicion is not enough.
Adam
Am I the only one who thinks that the “War on Copyright violation” is turning into the “War on Drugs” pt. 2?
Samsung
From the link:
__________________________
Matthew Levitt, a senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy who also testified, said that “Hezbollah depends on a wide variety of criminal enterprises, ranging from smuggling to fraud to drug trade to diamond trade in regions across the world, including North America, South America and the Middle East, to raise money.”
____________________________
The attempt at humor (John Kerry, ketchup, etc) seems misplaced. Steadman said that a number of the suspects had photos of Hezbollah’s leader in their posession. This seems to indicate that -at the very least -they have much more familiarity with the organization than casual anti-Semites. Although the copyright violators might not serve as active members of extremist groups, they might be persuaded to offer financial support or act in other “secondary” roles. I welcome any law enforcement activities that make it more difficult for such organizations to raise money. A better argument against the enforcement of these laws might explain that the money expended is disproportionate to the results. Also, I am not familiar with this situation but I have heard that this is not so much a major new antiterrorist initiative as a duty that the Department happened to assume from a previous entity after it was formed. The existence of truly pressing issues related to terrorism is no excuse for not enforcing more mundane laws.
John Cole
Samsung- It is the excuse for the creation of a new layer of copyright laws and the concomitant expansion of government enforcement powers that bothers me.
Not to mention, the connection to terrorism is tenuous at best.
Nikki
Hey, did you know that if you purchase designer knockoff handbags, you could be aiding the war on terror?
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/terror/20050525-1605-terrorcounterfeiters.html
Nikki
Sorry, that shoulda been aiding terrorists.
Nancy
and where was our border patrol this Memorial Day Weekend??..They were manning a total road block on the only interstate in Vermont. Not at the border, 150 miles south of the Canadian border. Questioned everyone, even the kids. What a waste of time.
Kimmitt
Was there any question that this would happen?
Samsung
Stedman is already responsible for an investigation team that looks into copyright violations. Is this commission proposing broad increases in federal powers to deal with the problem? The article did not seem to confirm this. Given that these violations are already crimes, he is not part of the expansion of governmental power. He is simply interpreting the likelihood of extremists’ involvement in “mundane” activities that on the surface have a “tenuous” link to terrorism. I prefer to hear about these potential threats now, rather than to hear complaints after the fact that the government didn’t warn us of their role in funding some future terrorist plot. The whole premise behind most terrorism today is the concealment of the extremists’ activities. Hence the seemingly innocuous nature of their operations. The article stated as fact that radicals are definitely involved in financial enterprises that on the surface lack even a “tenuous” link to terrorism; I doubt that they would for some reason eschew violations of intellectual property. Opposing arguments seem to be akin to a request for a police department to divert all resources to the homicide division. Doing so might reduce the number of murders but it would diminish the overall effectiveness of the force. Likewise, going after only the most obvious instances of terrorist activity will diminish the nation’s ability to react to a highly dynamic and intelligent enemy. Once NYC started coming down hard on turnstile jumpers it was discovered that a surprisingly high percentage of them were carrying concealed weapons. Not to use too much anecdotal subway evidence, but I recall one murder case that was solved because the perpetrator used a bogus pass to board his train. This convinces me that “minor laws” are in and of themselves worth enforcing – and perhaps strengthening – and are not part of a sinister power grab. Stating that “minor” laws’ enforcement consumes too many resources in exchange for the return is entirely different from acting as though they have no intrinsic value.
Also,I think it’s worth stressing again that the people mentioned in the article seem to have more than a passing familiarity with Hezbollah. I know several ardent opponents of the Bush administration, and even the most shrill of them is worlds away from the kind of person who would collect Hezbollah propaganda and have a fascination with its leadership.
Samsung
BTW, intellectual property laws in various forms obviously predate 9/11 – hence my skepticism that they represent a threatening governmental expansion. For the record, I am not in favor of incarcerating people simply for having pro-Hezbollah materials. It just seems unlikely that those who collect them are, as a general rule, only “tenuously” connected to terrorism.
John Cole
Samsung- I want more proof than a few Hisbollah flags that copyright piracy is connected to terrorism before I believe anything that was said by Steadman.
It seems they have plenty of statutory power to pursue these individuals already, so, my reaction is more to the suggestion by McCullagh that this will be used as the framework for more legislation and, subsequently, more power.
Quite frankly- I just don’t trust this administration or any other with unlimited authority.
John Cole
It just seems unlikely that those who collect them are, as a general rule, only “tenuously” connected to terrorism.
A reasonable enough, but I am now an alarmist reactionary when it comes to government power.
“Trust but verify,” for me, at least, has been replaced with “Verify, verify, verify, and still remain on guard.”
KC
Did anyone know John was a traitor? I didn’t until today. Don’t get me wrong, I knew he had touchy things to say, but really, insulting our government for trying to stop terrorists from bootlegging videos–that just goes too far. If our balance-the-budget, small government President wants to monitor our video rentals too . . . well . . . I’ve got nothing against it. After all, just imagine what terrorists could glean from just one rental. Let a couple jihadis watch Star Wars and we could find ourselves face to face with a Death Star! We’d really be screwed then.
I’m disappointed in you John; I thought you were a patriot. Terrorists are smart, they’re innovative, anything we can imagine them doing, they will probably do. So, if the government says stopping terrorists means giving it the authority to monitor our every move, well, it’s our duty to give it what it wants. Only a traitor uninterested in protecting freedom would suggest otherwise.
Shawn
“Verify, verify, verify, and still remain on guard.”
I agree. I expect Homeland Security’s scope will continue widening. I have it on good authority, via various sources, that teachers, judges and Democrats are all terrorists. Now I find out that copyright violators are terrorists too? What’s the world coming to?
Soon we’ll have Patriot Act II in effect and Homeland Security stepping up to save us from the vile teacher terrorists, judge terrorists, democrat terrorists, copyright terrorists, etc. McCarthy must be dancing a jig. Okay, sorry for the melodrama but this is a slippery slope. I fear for my country.
Samsung
I did not accuse Mr. Cole of being a traitor; neither did I accuse all Democrats of being terrorists. I even stated that the government should NOT arrest people simply for having Hezbollah propaganda. I am simply arguing in favor of the intrinsic value of laws governing comparatively minor crimes. Copyright laws have been in place long before the war on terrorism, and MAY help starve some extremist groups of funds. If the government proposes draconian penalties for these infractions or pursues copyright violators without regard for more dangerous offenders I would be perfectly willing to argue against any changes to the laws. To my knowledge I am not imagining that terrorists fund their crimes through unorthodox endeavors; I know this is the case, so long as the information in the article is accurate. If you have documentation proving that they are not involved in cigarette smuggling, narcotics, the diamond trade, etc. then please provide it. Until you do so, it will be logical to assume that the said black market industry accounts for some of their funds, in keeping with their general M.O. Caricaturing the opposing position by claiming I consider Mr. Cole a traitor does not address any valid points pertaining to the issue.
JonBuck
Samsung:
Innocent until proven guilty, remember? Any burden of proof is on the accusers. This means you.
CaseyL
So HS is adding IP enforcement to its bailiwick? Isn’t HS already using “anti-terrorism” as a justification for taking over jurisdiction of some drug and pornography investigations?
And, when HS takes over investigating crimes, it’s not bound by procedural laws, Constitutional laws, laws of evidence, Miranda, or even Gideon. Or, for that matter, habeus corpus and the Geneva Conventions.
Lovely. We’re heading fast towards the day when any offense can get you railroaded to Gitmo and lifelong incarceration.
“Back in the US, back in the US, back in the USSR,” indeed.
Aaron
It takes things like this to remind me that government is not the answer to many things, and that bureaucracies by nature expand.
I hope the GOP figures this out before 2008.
Svejk
I think that all of us are getting a little gunshy about awarding new powers to a government that’s been trading off of ‘The War on Terror’ to try and justify stuff like the Predator email search program/
I remember how I used to think nothing could be stupider than the way they traded off of ‘The War on Drugs’ to crack down on cancer-victim pot smokers in California. I was wrong.
Samsung
Quote:
Samsung:
Innocent until proven guilty, remember? Any burden of proof is on the accusers. This means you.
________________________________
I am advocating the prosecution of bootleggers alone. The fact that these people are selling an illegal product does not seem to be in dispute. Jumping to conclusions and saying that bootleggers are terrorists is something totally different. I don’t advocate that sort of extremism. It just seems that it is valid to enforce these laws and also valid to expect that at least a few of those indicted will be implicated in more serious crimes on further investigation. If you have problems with copyright protection laws themselves then argue from that angle.
Samsung
Quote:
Samsung:
Innocent until proven guilty, remember? Any burden of proof is on the accusers. This means you.
________________________________
I am advocating the prosecution of bootleggers alone. The fact that these people are selling an illegal product does not seem to be in dispute. Jumping to conclusions and saying that bootleggers are terrorists is something totally different. I don’t advocate that sort of extremism. It just seems that it is valid to enforce these laws and also valid to expect that at least a few of those indicted will be implicated in more serious crimes on further investigation. If you have problems with copyright protection laws themselves then argue from that angle.
Libertine
The way I read this post is more about the government using terrorism to further their agenda then enforcing copyright laws. The GOP will stop at nothing to get what they want. The invoke God, Flag and Children. For example in the Stem Cell debate they trotted out some cute kids and said “if we allow embryos from fertility clinics to be used all these kids wouldn’t be here”. Well with this issue they have gone back to terrorism as the boogeyman.
The main issue with copyright infringement is on the P2P networks. A case about copyright infringement and P2P’s is being considered by the SCOTUS with a ruling expected in June. Why doesn’t the administration wait for the ruling? The court might take care of the issue.
But this effort isn’t about curbing terrorism…unless terrorists are now anybody who denying the recording and movie industries what they feel is due them. The industry doesn’t want to go after college kids or John Q. Public on the file sharing issue…so taking a cue from the Bush administration the have “re-framed” the problem as a terrorist one. And who isn’t all for fighting terrorists?
I am waiting for the administration to claim that by leaving the SS system unchanged we are actually aiding terrorists!!!
BOOGEYMEN!!!!
Libertine
So HS is adding IP enforcement to its bailiwick? Isn’t HS already using “anti-terrorism” as a justification for taking over jurisdiction of some drug and pornography investigations?
HS is actually involved in pornography cases? At what point did enjoying sex become such a bad thing? And WTF does it have to do with HS?
Samsung
You seem to have issues with recording companies and the entertainment industry. Once again, why not address these issues specifically without creating the weird dualism where you either oppose copyright legislation or are the next McCarthy, hate dissent, a person who thinks John Cole is a traitor – you get the idea. The official was asked whether or not terrorists might be involved in a business enterprise, and he answered to the best of his ability. I’d rather get a straight answer now than have him dismiss the evidence as trivial. It’s common enough for members of supposedly mainstream Islamic organizations like CAIR to be implicated in extremist activities – to say nothing of open sympathizers with Hezbollah. If there are convicted black marketeers who show signs of involvement in such activities I think it might be cause for concern. That’s all. Note that I am advocating arrests based on longstanding copyright laws, and not on their political sympathies.
Libertine
I have no issues with the entertainment industry. There is a problem with piracy but I have serious issues with them complaining that their problem with piracy is caused by international terrorists. That argument is as disengenuous as it gets in my book. I see this as laying the groundwork in advance if by chance the SCOTUS doesn’t rule in their favor.
Samsung
OK then – I personally believe that most violators have not committed more serious crimes, and would not like to see the industry try to circumvent a supreme court decision. Still, it is strange to post in favor of legal initiatives that MIGHT combat terrorism – without involving open military conflict – and be accused immediately by some posters (KC, for instance) of thinking the blog host is a traitor. Such reasoning seems roughly similar to the very political extremism that the posters claim to be concerned about.
Libertine
Well Samsung IMO your argument isn’t an extremist one…I just happen to think there are more serious problems we as a country should be focusing on instead of piracy. If there is an effort by DoJ to more vigorously enforce copyright laws will they be adding agents? If they don’t where are the agents going to be pulled from? Why doesn’t the industry develop better anti-piracy software instead of relying on the feds to do their work for them?
AWJ
Libertine-
“Anti-piracy software” is snake oil. The copy prevention features of new video game consoles are cracked within weeks of them hitting the market. All attempts to retrofit anti-copy technology onto the audio CD (and there have been quite a few) have been absurd farces.
AWJ
Oh, and as for “trusted computing”, the only conceivable way to prevent the PC from being a perfect media copying device is to turn it into a closed platform like an X-Box, in which only software and peripherals approved by the authorities will function.
AWJ
Sorry for the serial posts. I’m having network problems.
Seeing as you’re a libertarian, I’m sure I don’t need to lecture you about the relative merits of centrally-planned versus open markets. (Sure, the X-Box and the other game consoles have done pretty well for their manufacturers, but, well, e-commerce and blogs weren’t invented on a PlayStation)
Actually, for the industry to attempt to close the PC can’t be compared with game consoles that were designed from the outset as closed platforms. The problem is that open, unrestricted PCs already exist. Who in their right mind would trade in their current open PC that can do anything you can buy, download or write the software to do, for a closed PC-Box that only has the capabilities Microsoft sees fit to trust users with? The only way I can see to sell closed PCs is for the government to outlaw open ones.
Tim F
Oh shit. Just a heads-up.
AWJ
After 9/11, the gloves had to come off. And the pants as well, it seems.
Aaron
Now, just as a devil’s advocate, what if a rogue regime traded in heroin, counterfeit US currency, etc. to earn funds for WMD’s?
Normally those crimes fall to Treasury and DEA.
Oh, and yeah, North Korea does both.
But still…CD piracy is a stretch.
ppgaz
Aaron … why would they need drug money or counterfeiting to fund terrorism?
They have enough oil money to fund terrorism for the next umpteen years.
Let’s see now … why would those nicely dressed, Bush-friendly Saudi Royals wink at their money getting into the hands of terrorists? Pay only lip service to the bad behavior of their most notorious relative, Osama?
It wouldn’t be because keeping the US in a dither over terrorism is the cheapest and easiest way to divert attention from their thieving, repressive regime’s behavior, and keeping Saudi-loving governments in power in the United States, would it?
Well, maybe some posters here can come up with a better explanation.
Counterfeiting to fund terrorism? Jesus, some of you have been watching too many Efrem Zimbalist Jr. and Quinn Martin tv shows.
I’d laugh, if I didn’t have to cry first.
Samsung
ppgaz, the article stated as fact that terrorists do in fact participate in various black market industries. Apparently counterfeiting per se was not included as one of them but there were a variety of superficially “harmless” black market activities. IIRC some Palestinian terrorists in the U.S. used cigarette smuggling to fund their comrades overseas. Not all terrorists will be on good terms with major oil-producing states, so they apparntly make the most of whatever illegal fundraising methods are feasible in a given area. If you have evidence that the reports linking terrorists to black marketeers are false, please let us know.
Samsung
INTERPOL report on black market goods – including intellectual property – and terrorist activity
http://www.interpol.org/Public/ICPO/speeches/SG20030716.asp
Cigarette Smuggling & Palestinian Terrorism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23384-2004Jun7.html
Mr. Cole joked about Ketchup funding terrorism; the INTERPOL link indicates that extremely common consumer goods may well do just that.
ppgaz
Evidence? OPEC revenues were at around a trillion dollars every three years, the last time I looked. A trillion dollars into the hands of despots, kings, shieks. People who benefit directly from having the US wage a ‘war on terror’ indefinitely. They could fund all the terrorism on earth without even noticing a dent in their pocket change.
Where is Osama from? How rich is he? Where did the money come from?
Yes, I can see it now: From Bin Laden’s cave in Pakistan, the order comes down:
Print more counterfeit US currency.
Right, got it.
ppgaz
Sorry, I meant to include this link.
Happy reading.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/031215/15terror.htm
BadTux
Frankly, all of this is ludicrous. A pirated movie has never killed anybody. A pirated movie has never invaded a person’s home and terrorized them. A pirated movie has never physically assaulted anybody or physically ripped a wallet out of someone’s pocket at gunpoint. A pirated movie has never gone onto somebody’s property and physically removed something. A pirated movie has never blown up a federal building, or flown a jet airliner into a skyscraper, or bombed an abortion clinic. There is no criminal action here. Causing someone to lose money is not something the government should get involved with, it is a matter for civil action to get restitution for the losses caused.
Violations of copy rights should be civil matters, where the person who lost money due to the violation of copy rights files suit in a court of law against the person who has caused him a loss of money. In the end, pirating a movie is no different from your neighbor taking a shortcut across your front yard and putting a couple of ruts in your sod. The rightful venue, if the two of you cannot reach agreement otherwise, is to pursue your case in a court of law, wherein the judge can require your neigbbor to pay you the amount of money needed to restore your sod. Yes, your neighbor caused you a loss of money. But he did not physically assault you or invade your home or physically remove any property from your premesis, thus it is a civil matter, rather than a matter to be solved by sending jack-booted government goons to your neighbor’s house to sieze his property and throw him in jail. (And if you don’t think this happens, I suggest you go Google “Steve Jackson Games Secret Service” and learn far more than you’d ever want to know).
It is time that we rein in unbridled government power. Past time, actually. Government should be restricted to those few things that it does best (border protection, military, police, fire, highways, libraries, and maybe schools and health care), and leave the resolving of civil conflicts to the civil courts, where they can be resolved based upon actual damages without the involvement of jack-booted stormtroopers with guns.
— Badtux the Libertarian Penguin
Aaron
I was referring to North Korea, who could supply terrorists.
They counterfeit money and sell heroin for funds.
I was simply making a counter-argument where in some instances, there would be a defense department or homeland security aspect to a seemingly unrelated crime issue.
Or how about opium funding the Taliban now?
In any case, for Hezbollah, the answer would be to install broadband into their areas…then the people will download for free instead of buying pirated CD’s. Who knows maybe they will read Balloon Juice and come to their senses.
Libertine
ppgaz is right on the money!!! With ALL the money floating around the world poetntial piracy revenues are laughable. The real problem as ppgaz states is the money being funneled directly to Muslim extremists who promote terrorism by the ruling elite, specifically The House of Saud…our ally.
willyb
The real problem as ppgaz states is the money being funneled directly to Muslim extremists who promote terrorism by the ruling elite, specifically The House of Saud…our ally.”
We’re on to something now! What do you say, shall we nuke em?
Samsung
The point is that small-time extremists living in Western nations will not be able to break into the oil industry & other major sources of funding. Moreover, extremist groups may have adversarial relationships with their home countries. They will therefore seek to make money whichever way they can – including by pirating commonplace items. None of the comments above has refuted the examples featured in the INTERPOL report or explained why so many extremists chose to involve themselves with piracy. Instead, many of them seem to dismiss terrorists’ piracy out of hand because it “seems” implausible, or, perhaps, because the commenters feel as though pirates are somehow entitled to do what they do. Badtux, you could easily replace “pirated movie” with “barrel of oil” in your example; would that then mean that funds from oil were not a major source of extremists’ funding? Piracy is not a victimless crime or a trivial issue when it becomes a source of funding for terrorists who are here illegally, estranged from their oil-rich home countries, and need fast cash.