Is the draft morally acceptable? Tacitus says it is.
Reader Interactions
22Comments
Comments are closed.
Trackbacks
-
The morality of a draft
Tacitus has a post on the morality of a military draft:
Short answer: of course. The state has the right to ensure its own continuity, and the draft is a valid tool toward that end. Furthermore, since we do not in fact live in an anarcho-libertarian …
Rick
He’s back! Who knew? Excellent news.
The draft is as acceptable as any other obligation laid on the citizenry.
Cordially…
Rick
Errr…which is not a way of saying “desirable.”
zarathustra
Obviously not a yes/no question. I think he hits it on the head with something along the line of it depends on the execution. But, also I would add that it depends on the cause.
If a draft started tomorrow, I would call it immoral.
On the other side of the same coin, is avoiding the draft immoral? If I were asked to go to Iraq tomorrow, I would refuse. (I would like to think I would have been in the front of the line to sign up even before Pearl Harbor. Until I actually make the sacrifice of putting my life on the line, I am not going to say I would do what many before me have done.) I would sleep easier at night knowing I refused to fight in Iraq, than if I actually fought and killed there. On the other hand, I realize that the system breaks down if everyone that doesn
MI
zarathustra pretty much said what I think about a draft for the war in Iraq (although if I got drafted I would go mostly becuse I would feel guilty/shitty about staying while kids from my neighborhood/state/country went, but morally, I would strongly disagree with drafting for Iraq) but I haven’t read the Tacitus piece yet, so maybe it’ll reshape my perspective.
John, Did you delete the “A Democrat I could vote for” post? I can’t seem to find it.
Tim F
Tacitus should ask whether a draft is inevitable. If we plan to remain in Iraq for longer than another year or so the answer is yes.
Bush is hoping that he can hold out long enough with the current army that a Democratic administration will be forced to institute the draft. Seriously, if anybody has heard of a more coherent Iraq strategy I’d love to hear it*.
* No Rick, elections don’t count. Elections were what Bush did, against his will, after Sistani made it untenable not to hold elections. Being led around by local rabblerousers does not constitute strategy.
Steven
To paraphrase Tina: “What’s morality got to do with it”
Tacitus admits there is no objective morality when he states that the moral legitimacy lies in the execution. If that’s the case, all you are really arguing about is whether it’s a good idea or not.
Rick
Thus spake,
The consequences are manifestly greater (I didn’t mention it because I expected it to go without saying), but the moral underpinning is the same as for other duties to the State and/or States.
Cordially…
Rick
Tim,
I truly don’t know what point you’re directing at me. Elections don’t count? Since when?
And the prevailing criticism I remember from 6 months or more ago was that it was too soon to have elections in Iraq.
So please hone your connection between a call-up, and Iraqi elections.
Cordially…
Shawn
Ideally, drafts should not be needed. People were lining up to enlist in WWII. That was, if I may use the term, considered to be a righteous war. People wanted to serve their country.
Heh. If a war is not important enough to the people to enlist, is that a war we should be fighting? Looking at the polls, there seems to be considerable doubt about whether the Iraq War is “worth it.”
Nothing to be done now but stick it out, one way or the other. To paraphrase Colin Powell, we broke it, we bought it.
Shawn
P.S. Dunno about the morality thing. I can say that if we are still in this mess in 2013 (when my son turns 18) he will be drafted over my dead body.
Tim F
Rick,
Follow the bouncing ball. Lack of strategy in Iraq ensures that we must stay long enough that a draft will be necessary. Recruiting losses has pushed military readiness to the point where we can either occupy Iraq, or else be ready to fight a war elsewhere.
Somebody will argue that elections constitute strategy. Who will? Rick of course. You see, strategy is usually something that you plan in advance. Bush opposed elections until Sistani made it clear that we sould be asked to leave if we didn’t hold them. Suddenly Bush supported the idea. As I said, being led by the nose by local rabblerousers doesn’t count as ‘strategy.’
Straw men about Democratic criticisms are what we in the reality-based community call non-sequiturs.
Rick
Somebody will argue that elections constitute strategy. Who will? Rick of course. You see, strategy is usually something that you plan in advance. Bush opposed elections until Sistani made it clear that we sould be asked to leave if we didn’t hold them. Suddenly Bush supported the idea.
I’d really appreciate a MSM cite for your claim, because getting civil government going via self-determination was the objective all along.
Now, as for strategy, I’m looking at the first fruits of this dreadful “destabilization” so cherished by the ironically named “community” in which you claim membership: Kuwaiti women’s lib, tractable Ghadaffi, Mubarak genuflecting to reform, along with the House of Saud (hearts not in it, certainly), the events in Lebanon, Assad’s pucker factor. Hot damn–it’s the inflamed Arab street!
I love it when a plan–a strategery–comes together.
Now, if the U.S. Army can develop an exit strategy for Germany and Korea, the troop rotations in Iraq can be improved. And more Iraqi security forces are coming on line all the time. Maybe they can take over for us in Germany, eventually.
So a draft isn’t necessary, except maybe to those who think the Minute Men are 10 feet tall. Like the mighty, empire-crushing Afghan Talibani warriors were.
Cordially…
Kimmitt
Seriously, if anybody has heard of a more coherent Iraq strategy I’d love to hear it*.
Allow failure, then cynically use the chaos as a rhetorical club against those who opposed the war in the first place? It has all the hallmarks of a Bush plan — cynical political brilliance combined with near-total indifference to the national good.
SamAm
Kimmitt’s right. This administration plays the part of Reagan, acts the part of Carter, and will be all too happy to foist the blame for their decisions on people who never agreed with them in the first place. Then, in 2008 voila, it’s time for “Morning In America” again. If you thought there was eagerness to go into Iraq, let me tell you, it pales in comparison to their desire to escalate Operation “Stab in The Back.”
David Rossie
“The state has the right to ensure its own continuity, and the draft is a valid tool toward that end. Furthermore, since we do not in fact live in an anarcho-libertarian dreamland, there is a society that we are bound to render support to. Presumably this society and the state are, in a democracy, more or less coterminous. ”
The premise is invalid. States don’t have rights, because only individuals can act and enjoy the fruits of their actions or bear the consequences.
I’m sure that it could be necessary at times for the government to encourage and pursuade military recruitment in times of crisis, but no government worth fighting for is going to draft in the 21st century. We should have evolved past that as a civilization. The state exists to protect citizens, not the other way around. If citizens won’t enlist willingly, I’d say there’s a huge moral conflict in forcing them to. Not to mention a disconnect: perhaps such a government shouldn’t be defended. Let’s hope we never reach that point in our lifetimes.
p.lukasiak
I’d really appreciate a MSM cite for your claim, because getting civil government going via self-determination was the objective all along.
note to Tim: Don’t waste your time. Obviously, Rick’s memory hole is infinite in capacity, and providing him references will do no good.
**********************
Tacitus misses the real issue of the “morality” of a draft — he thinks a draft is “moral” if its done right (i.e. “no exceptions”). He is really talking about the ethics of a draft, and not the morality of it. The real moral question concerning a draft is always related to the issue “to what end?”
Ultimately, a draft is only “moral” if it is absolutely vital to the defense and preservation of a (moral) state. (A draft to defend/preserve an immoral system would not be moral.)
Because it was an “optional” war that was not critical to the defense of the USA, the situation in Iraq cannot be used as a pretext for a “moral” draft, at least not without an admission of moral error in deciding to pursue that optional war. (The “moral slate” must be wiped clean first, otherwise a draft simply perpetuates the immoral nature of the original mistake.)
Jim Ignatowski
Here’s how the draft lottery should go:
1st – Those who voted for Bush twice
2nd – Those who voted for Bush once
There’s no reason old f@t@asses like Limbaugh and Goldberg can’t serve – they should be utilized as “blast cushions” – strap Limbaugh to the side of a Humvee to absorb the blast from IEDs. Use Hannity’s BIG FREAKIN HEAD to trip them off.
If you supported Bush and supported the war – if you talked the talk – then it’s time to go sign up – or walk the walk.
Slartibartfast
Well, that was special, wasn’t it?
Jay C
Yep, ol’ Tac is back, and, when he can spare a few minutes away from the partisan sump of RedState, can still post some decdent stuff on his own site. Unfortunately, his “draft” post isn’t among it.
The legality of a draft is unquestioned; and its “morality” is really a non sequitur/straw issue – what is really at debate is the *practicality/desirability* of re-instituting conscription – since “necessity” [i.e. dire need] is widely assumed to be the only trigger for it the public will stand (CW).
As, apparently, both the military AND civilian Establishments are at best lukewarm to the idea, it doesn’t seem to be a likely prospect any time soon.
But at least Tacitus can keep us talking.
Rick
note to Tim: Don’t waste your time. Obviously, Rick’s memory hole is infinite in capacity, and providing him references will do no good.
No, no, Tim. Don’t take this ill intentioned advice.
I’m truly curious as to what authority there is for your contention that elections in Iraq was something to which Bushitlerchimpburton had to be dragged kicking and screaming. Or lured with a banana, or a shiny bauble.
Because my “memory hole” echoes with leftwingnut complaints about arrogant cowboy neocons trying to force democracy on a culture which can never in our lifetimes be ready for it. I might have missed the other bit of news in the din.
Cordially…
Tacitus
“Tacitus admits there is no objective morality when he states that the moral legitimacy lies in the execution.”
Uh, no.