My take on the whole Durbin affair is that he didn’t really say our troops were Nazis, but that any allusion to Nazis is offensive, stupid, and counter-productive, regardless of the point you are trying to make. Let’s keep the Nazi references for, say, Nazis.
Durbin didn’t say we were the moral equivalent or comparable to Nazi’s, he said that if you read the FBI accounts, you might think Nazi’s had done it. Fair enough, but still offensive to many. Couldn’t this point be made in another way? Here is the quote:
When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here — I almost hesitate to put them in the record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:
On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold….On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.
If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.
He wasn’t comparing the overall treatment of our detainees to that of the Nazi treatment of Dachau (which, is admirable, despite the muddled mess their legal status has become), so can we please stop the idiotic “I Love Gitmo” bumper sticker campaigns? That wasn’t the point at all. He was treating specific incidences of abuse as alleged in the FBI memo and other sources to acts of indecency conducted by Nazi’s, etc. Again, he didn’t call our troops Nazi’s- in fact, he didn’t even mention them. He said Americans- you, me, all of us- not American soldiers. But why was that even necessary? Why even mention Nazi’s? Wouldn’t this have been just as effective:
If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by someone other than citizens of the greatest country in the world- someone that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.
Wouldn’t that have been just as compelling? Wouldn’t that have sufficed? I sure think it would have, because the damning aspect of the speech was not the allusion to Nazi behaviors, but the FBI report itself.
Durbin’s remarks were ill-conceived, poorly received, and just plain stupid. And, more tragically, it has once again queered the debate. Good folks like the Mudville Gazette, Black Five, and the Indepundit have a right to be pissed- I can completely understand it. They feel their honor and dignity and service to the country has been impugned, and, in a way, it has. There will be people in the Middle East, Berkely, and elsewhere who sieze upon this as confirmation of their lunatic fantasies about the evil United States. Likewise, I can understand why Democrats are up in arms in their defense of Durbin, because the overwrought reactions by the usual suspects smacks of rank political opportunism.
At any rate, with the calls for censure the entire episode has been elevated to the point of farce. If you feel pissed at Durbin- organize, raise money, write letters- counter his idiotic speech with more speech and defeat him in the election. But the censure bit is a tad much- if Democrats want to knock him out of his leadership position, that is their prerogative. A bunch of Republicans screaming for his head is just going to be seen, rightly, as more of the same political opportunism that there is already too much of in this country.
Durbin should have never said what he said the way he said it, and it is worth remembering that American troops are not Nazi SS or the Khmer Rouge, and America is not Hitler’s Germany, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, or, for that matter, Stalin’s Russia, etc.
Which is why the FBI report should trouble you, notwithstanding Dick Durbin’s desire to shoot himself in the foot while it is in his mouth.
John Boucher
C’mon, get real. this whole flap is just Rove engineered nonsense to deflect attention away from the first American presdient to not only start a war, but also lose it. Remember Newsweek and the flushed Koran? Remember Terry Schiavo? Remember Dick Cheney’s most recent claim (#211 by my count) that the war in Iraq is almost won?
Trash can liners all.
This story will be dust in 2 weeks, and all the loud-mouthed Bush apologists will be whining about something else.
Mike S
Seems reasonable.
I’m still wondering why the talk radio shows have all started the tape after the first few lines abou being covered in shit and piss. You’d think they want their listeners to think that Durbin was only talking about loud music. That couldn’t be true, could it?
Mark
So when people come on here and other Republican sites and say Durbin called our troops nazis and should be censured for it. Do they know they’re lying? Is it like someone on the left calling Bush a moron, where they know he’s not really a moron, but it fits into a theme and is easy, cheap politics? Or are some people just delusional and it’s a case of people will hear what the want to hear and believe what they want to believe?
What do you guys think?
Kimmitt
The latter. Believe me.
Jason
What Republican other than the inept Newt Gingrich has called for censure of Durbin?
The last thing the Republicans should do is censure Durbin, or punish him at all – let him become the new poster boy for the Democratic party. That should be enough to ensure another victory for the GOP in 2006.
Rick
And wasn’t Durbin reading from an anonymous email? As John pointed out in some post in re: Michelle Malkin or K. Lopez, such things are suspect.
As is Durbin’s judgment.
Or are some people just delusional and it’s a case of people will hear what the want to hear and believe what they want to believe?
A universal trait that only the “reality-based community” believes is limited.
Cordially…
Andrei
Cole asks: “Wouldn’t that have been just as compelling? Wouldn’t that have sufficed?”
No.
Why? Because it wouldn’t have made the ariwaves and no one would have cared what Durbin said on the Senate floor.
The GOP and the far right wing have elevated the nature of the debate such that it’s almost required for the opposition party to make just as caustic rhetoric in response just to even be heard on the nightly news.
The only problem we have now is not that Durbin made the remarks, but that too many on the left side of the aisle haven’t yet backed up what Durbin said with the full force that most conservatives seem to want to attack the messenger.
Jason
So, according to John and Andrei, Karl Rove and his Republican juju is forcing Democrats like Dick Durbin and John Conyers to say stupid things.
And this is coming from the reality-based community…
Geronimo
Suppose Durbin had said that this had been done by ” someone that had no concern for human beings.”
I can imagine the outrage from the noise machine “how dare he say our troops have no concern for human beings!” “how dare he say our soldiers are uncaring monsters!” “Durbin should be eliminated for endangering our troops and giving comfort to the enemy!”
Tom Delay can get on the floor of the congress and more or less threaten judges and not one conservative mentions it. Howard Dean says that Republicans are mainly white, christians and it’s a three week story.
Who’s got control of the media and where are they leading it?
shark
Congrats John! You do your best to carry water for the loony-wing of the Dem. party, and now you have the approval of the moonbats you so desperately crave.
Why are you so concerned with having the other side like you?
John Boucher
Jason: Heh. Love how you righties feel they need top just make shit up. Liars all, just like the Kennebunkport Cocaine Cowboy and his Iraqi “Weapons Of Mass Destruction.” You know, the lie that has cost 1,700 servicemen their lives, and the country hundreds of billions of dollars in national treasure? Most of it borrowed?
No wonder Bush’s numbers are falling so fast. The right has lost touch with the mothership.
John Cole
Maybe I don’t speak Limbaughese, but could you explain to me how calling Durbin’s remarks ‘stupid, ill conceived, ill-received, offensive, and colunter-productive’ could be characterized as ‘carrying water’ for the ‘loony-wing’ of the Democratic party?
Mike Jones
Unfortunately, no, I don’t think it would have been as compelling had Durbin not mentioned Nazis. Compare it to the flap over the Amnesty International report, which caused no reaction whatsoever until someone said the world “gulag”.
Cases like this seem, unfortunately, to have extremely middle ground between “ignore” and “overreaction”.
Jason
Heh. Love how you righties feel they need top just make shit up.
Hey, you’re the one talking about Karl Rove engineering this whole situation with Durbin’s comments. Unless he has magical powers or a mind-control chip implanted in Durbin’s brain or something else sufficiently X-Files-ish for you, Senator Durbin’s going to have to take responsibility for his own remarks.
Come on, John… have you listened to yourself lately?
Jason
Come on, John… have you listened to yourself lately?
Just to be clear, the John in that last sentence was referring to John Boucher, not our host.
Besides, John (Cole)… you’re decision to take advertising for “powerful testimonies” from Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn is entirely your prerogative.
John Boucher
Jason: How about Durbin takes responsibility for his remarks the same day Bush fesses up to the certain factual errors he passed on during a State of the Union address before Congress regarding the WMD he rather strongly claimed were not only in Iraq, but so dangerous we would need to go to war over them?
Bit of a contrast if you think about it. Bush basically lied us into a bloody and absurd war, Durbin made impolitic remarks about an FBI report that detailed prisoner abuse in Guantanamo.
By the way, I think you ought to check out some mainstream news on this Durbin situation. There is no coverage. This is a blog only phenomenon. Nobody is paying attention.
Rick
No coverage in the “mainstream news.” Knock me over with a feather.
Cordially…
eileen from OH
One thing puzzles me. . .if it is really, really true that Durbin’s remarks “endanger our troops” and “embolden our enemies” as has been loudly trumpeted by the right, would not the wisest thing be to shaddupaboutit? I believe it was Newt who said that Durbin’s remarks “weren’t going away”. If they are that damaging, wouldn’t he want them to? Does he care more about getting Durbin than the safety of our troops?
eileen from OH
KC
John, I think you’ve made a good point. But I want to extend it a little farther. The way I see it, the Republican leadership is getting desparate. They’ve got a president who doesn’t seem to want to deal with reality and a small but growing caucus of folks in Congress who are recognizing this fact. Just take a look at what Chuck Hagel had to say to US News. It’s not nice stuff and he’s planning a presidential run.
My point is that the remarks from Durbin are going to get latched onto because Republicans need to latch onto something right now. Dems need to watch what they say so that they don’t give certain Republicans diversionary targets. Indeed, the fact that they’re spinning Durbin’s comments so mercilessly only signals how willing they are to get off topic and find a target. However, as criticism grows from their own caucus–and it will grow–it’s going to be harder and harder to do what they’re doing now and still look credible. The Dems just need to watch what their words, stay honest, and stay on message.
Jason
I think you ought to check out some mainstream news on this Durbin situation. There is no coverage. This is a blog only phenomenon. Nobody is paying attention.
That’s OK… everything will change once Karl Rove patents his latest super mind-control device. I hear he’s already in negotiations to have it installed on the next-generation of Tivo products.
Remember, Boucher… trust no one!
ppgaz
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this John. I think you are exactly wrong, 180 degrees wrong, on the Durbin flap.
I can’t make any reasonable paraphrase of the remarks that doesn’t essentially say this:
This country should be setting the gold standard. It’s a great country. Why are we reading FBI reports that sound like something out of a dictatorship? We need to do better.
There is no way for any reasonable person to twist that into “Durbin says we are no better than a dictatorship.”
He didn’t say that, or mean that, and a reading of the full text proves it.
But keep on keeping on. Make the story about a particular, and wrong, reading of Durbin, and let’s not talk about what Durbin really said. Let’s not talk about why we have a dysfunctional policy toward these detainees and why our civilian leadership refuses to take responsibility for it.
Play directly into the hands of a cynical political machine that will use any opportunity to obfuscate and to browbeat its opposition. That’s what’s really going on here, and I think you know it.
John Cole
Jason:
Besides, John (Cole)… you’re decision to take advertising for “powerful testimonies” from Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn is entirely your prerogative.
Umm. They are google ads. I have no say in what it is other than to stop advertising. I guess I missed your paypal donations and other support to keep this site up and running, so the ads will just have to stay. Don’t buy those books if you don’t like them. Or, paypal me the $360.00 a year they earn and I will put up an ad for your website or cause. I am flexible.
PPGAZ:
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this John. I think you are exactly wrong, 180 degrees wrong, on the Durbin flap.
Ahh, flamed from the right for carrying the left’s water, from from the left for being able to understand how some guys in the military and others might find this offensive.
I can’t make any reasonable paraphrase of the remarks that doesn’t essentially say this:
Which probably says more about you than it does about this post.
jdm
Soooo… it is necessary to link up Hitler, Stalin, & Pol Pot to give this issue the attention it deserves.
OK. What are you going to do then when the next Pol Pot, Hitler, or Stalin really comes by? Tell us to forgot being over the top in the past because this time you really mean it?
ppgaz
For those of you who just tuned in — or out — don’t settle for the cropped versions of what Mr. Durbin is supposed to have said, including Cole’s excision. Read the whole thing.
The flow of this speech, and its intent, are clear and unambiguous. We are a great country, and should not settle for the kind of thing described in the cited FBI report.
Not that we are as bad as what that report sounds like …. but that we are better, and that we should not settle for this situation.
That’s what he said.
Also, entertain yourself by finding and listing the factual inaccuracies in Durbin’s speech. I haven’t found any, but perhaps you can.
Geek, Esq.
John: You know very well the 11th Commandment of 21st Century politics:
[S]he Who Speaketh Rationally Receiveth No Press.
Kimmitt
John (Cole), if Durbin had read your version of the statement, the wingnuts would be saying:
1) Durbin says the US is not the greatest country in the world.
2) Durbin says the US is the same as a dictatorship.
It DOESN’T MATTER what the simile would be to. Durbin would have been raked across the coals, and Powerline would still be selling “Guantanamo Is For Lovers” t-shirts, bumper stickers, and promotional cattle prods.
John Cole
It DOESN’T MATTER what the simile would be to. Durbin would have been raked across the coals, and Powerline would still be selling “Guantanamo Is For Lovers” t-shirts, bumper stickers, and promotional cattle prods.
There would be no legitimate grievance, which I do think folks like Blackfive and the like do have. I would say that is a difference. Even a significant one.
John Boucher
Anyone have an opinion on why the mainstream press picked up on the (now laughable) Newsweek/Koran flushing story, but seems to have turned up its nose on the Durbin deal?
Another question: Bush’s rapidly declining poll numbers were in no way checked by the Newsweek/Koran story. Has the right-wing echo chamber lost its effectivemess as a political tool? Or has the kind of invective employed by the blog and AM radio right simply gone out of style? Is their bullshit simply getting old?
ppgaz
Let’s dumb this down for the righties, who only have, to coin a phrase, half the brain capacity that .. oh wait, that’s the Schiavo autopsy.
Anyway:
Senator Blowhard:
“This is a great country. I don’t believe that we are as bad as the Nazis.”
Right wing spin machine:
“Blohard says ‘We are as bad as the Nazis.’ He should be censured! Treason!”
Blogsters still in search of gonads:
“Well, blowhard was kind right sorta in a way if you will, but he shouldn’t have used the word Nazi because, you know, that just gives people the opportunity to cry Foul, and that is unfortunate if not laughable if not regrettable.”
The truth is right here.
Ignore the bullshit, read the speech:
jcricket
Ahh, flamed from the right for carrying the left’s water, from from the left for being able to understand how some guys in the military and others might find this offensive.
Hey John, this lefty agrees with your central point. Durbin could have avoided this flap (for the most part) by skipping the Nazi references.
However, there are many on the right that would gladly twist any criticism of this administration into a “they hate the military” meme.
As I said in another thread here, if those on the right would spare 10% of their outrage for the actual abuse, perhaps none of this would be an issue.
Darrell
Which is why the FBI report should trouble you
That would be an unverified FBI report which Durbin read in an email. Unverified. Tell us why we should be so “troubled” by this horsesh*t?. Why are you so quick to believe the email’s allegations without further investigation?
Darrell
As I said in another thread here, if those on the right would spare 10% of their outrage for the actual abuse, perhaps none of this would be an issue.
Because those on the left, yourself in particular, are so quick to allege abuse and detention of “innocents” without basis. You simply make it up and repeat it as if it’s true. In another thread you wrote that “most” of those detained are innocent. Incredible
So much ‘crying wolf’ from the left, and now they whine we are not more outraged.
John Cole
PPgaz:
Blogsters still in search of gonads:
You know what PPGAZ?
Blow me. I read the god damned speech, and that is why I linked it and dissected it. Read my post and check those funny hyperlinks out.
If you can’t figure out how even using the word Nazi in reference to despicable behavior is not offensive and over-stating the case by an order of magnitude that is hard to describe, then don’t fault me. That is your problem. I am sitting here getting shit on by wingnuts from both sides of the aisle for what I think is a pretty fair interpretation of what is going on, so spare me the soliloquies about bloggers who don’t have gonads.
And please start embedding your dammned hyperlinks so I have to stop doing it, because long links break up the page. If you don’t know how, email me and I will explain it how to do it.
Darrell:
That would be an unverified FBI report which Durbin read in an email. Unverified. Tell us why we should be so “troubled” by this horsesh*t?. Why are you so quick to believe the email’s allegations without further investigation?
A.) I generally trust the FBI
B.) Unverified or not, it is a troubling report. Sane people would make sure it is accurate or false and then act on it. Not, as some choose, to just dismiss it as more left-wing agitprop from the Amerikkka-hating FBI.
jdm
The FBI hates Amerikkka? Who knew?
That’s why I visit this blog. Info you can’t get anywhere else.
;-)
ppgaz
Sorry, John, I’ll have to take a raincheck on your offer, generous as it is ;-)
No, I don’t think “even using the word Nazi” is offensive. I think distractions from the truth are offensive. But as I said, we disagree on that point. Yelling at me is not going to convince me. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that a complete reading of the subject speech will convince a lot of people that I’m right about the speech. If not, so be it. The point is, people can read it and judge for themselves, they don’t have to take your word or my word for what it really says.
As for hyperlinks, no I don’t know how, and my email address is attached to this post if you want to send me the instructions.
Darrell
I see, skepticism of an UNVERIFIED FBI document = a looney dismissal of the report. How intelligent of you. Has the FBI itself verified the authenticity of the report? No? then that means that you are quick to jump over a report which could easily be crap.
The report was part of an ongoing investigation. But don’t let that stop you. blather on as if you have a valid point
Stormy70
I have to say, the left is spinning themselves into the dirt over this alleged “torture” of “innocent” detainees, who just happened to be skipping through the battlefields, where are troops were fighting a war.
I don’t believe these people were tortured, and I need some proof, stronger than an email. The Left’s hatred for Bush has blinded them, and has made the Left into a laughingstock. But keep on living in your Karl Rove controlled “Reality Based Community.” You can use your self-righteous OUTRAGE to keep you warm and happy. Meanwhile, the rest of us will be grateful that someone is doing the dirty work to keep us safe.
Darrell
Unverified or not, it is a troubling report
Unverified or not? Let me get this straight, because I don’t want to twist your words.. you expect us to be ‘troubled’ by a report which very well may be unverified bullsh*t?? Hearsay perhaps? Allegations from Al Queda prisoners trained to lie.. Who knows?
But the truthfullness of the documents doesn’t matter according to Mr. Cole, because even if it turns out to be bullsh*t, it is nonetheless “disturbing to read”.
Is that a fair summary of your position?
John Cole
No, I don’t think “even using the word Nazi” is offensive. I think distractions from the truth are offensive. But as I said, we disagree on that point. Yelling at me is not going to convince me
Christ. I am responding to your comment that I don;t have the gonads to say what you think. Excuse me, but I will take my object lessons in bravery and gonads from Smash, Independundit, and Greyhawk, rather than from someone shouting truth to power in the comments section of an obscure weblog.
You know who those guys are, don;t you? They are the ones who feel that Durbin’s speech was over the top when it included the Nazi references. Even if the FBI is completely accurate, even alluding to Nazi’s would be off by an order of magnitude.
So, you are right- all this does is distract from the truth. Which makes me wonder why you think Durbin is just fine saying whatever the hell he wants and that the leigitmate opinions of our military folks don’t count.
DARRELL- The document dump is right here and here.
Go read ’em. If you think it is all just unverified bullshit spewing from the FBI, fine. I tend to think there might be something to some of it.
Far North
Darrell hereby declares that he will never, ever, ever, ever beleive any story or statement that might be somewhat damaging to the reputation and crediblility of George W. Bush. Never
John Cole
Darrell:
Any way you spin it, it is troubling, because the emails are not detainee claims- they are what an FBI agent observed. Now, if it turns out to be bullshit, then no, I am not troubled by it at all.
But I don’t think it is silly to give enough credibility to the word of our own FBI agents to look into the matter. And, if what the FBI agent saw with hiw own eyes is accurate, yes it is troubling.
Will yuo people quit trying to boilk everything down into issues of black and white, yes or no. You are all making me mental.
ppgaz
Darrell, quite a few of the detainees who were originally described as fiendish, evil terrorists deserving of no due process, or representation, have been released.
Since I doubt that you have read Durbin’s actual speech, this excerpt:
—-/
Who are the Guantanamo detainees? Back in 2002, Secretary Rumsfeld described them as “the hardest of the hard core.” However, the administration has since released many of them, and it has now become clear that Secretary Rumsfeld’s assertion was not completely true.
Military sources, according to the media, indicate that many detainees have no connection to al-Qaida or the Taliban and were sent to Guantanamo over the objections of intelligence personnel who recommended their release. One military officer said: “We’re basically condemning these guys to a long-term imprisonment. If they weren’t terrorists before, they certainly could be now.”
Last year, in two landmark decisions, the Supreme Court rejected the administration’s detention policy. The Court held that the detainees’ claims that they were detained for over two years without charge and without access to counsel “unquestionably describe custody in violation of the Constitution, or laws or treaties of the United States.”
The Court also held that an American citizen held as an enemy combatant must be told the basis for his detention and have a fair opportunity to challenge the Government’s claims. Justice Sandra Day O’Connor wrote for the majority: “A state of war is not a blank check for the President when it comes to the rights of the Nation’s citizens.”
You would think that would be obvious, wouldn’t you?
—/
Note: I can find reports of between 50 and 200 detainees being released, presumably because they turned out not to be “enemy combatants” after all. I can’t come up with the exact number at the moment, maybe you can help out with this?
In any case, is there any chance that you’ll cease the deflections and obfuscations, and address the larger and only significant point in Durbin’s remarks, namely, that our detainee policies are in need of overhaul?
Darrell
Go read ’em. If you think it is all just unverified bullshit spewing from the FBI, fine. I tend to think there might be something to some of it.
John, your links to the reports aren’t working. And are you aware that as an information gathering agency, many of the reports are bullsh*t? HENCE THE VERIFICATION PROCESS
But don’t let that stop you from pouncing on every bit of unverified negative news about Gitmo. Because we wouldn’t want to give any benefit of the doubt or anything
ARROW
“The senator from Illinois’ comparisons are as tired as they’re grotesque. They add nothing useful to the debate. But around the planet, folks naturally figure that, if only 100 people out of nearly 300 million get to be senators, the position must be a big deal. Hence, headlines in the Arab world like “U.S. Senator Stands By Nazi Remark.” That’s al-Jazeera, where the senator from al-Inois is now a big hero — for slandering his own country, for confirming the lurid propaganda of his country’s enemies. Yes, folks, American soldiers are Nazis and American prison camps are gulags: don’t take our word for it, Senator Bigshot says so.”
“This isn’t a Republican vs Democrat thing; it’s about senior Democrats who are so over-invested in their hatred of a passing administration that they’ve signed on to the nuttiest slurs of the lunatic fringe. It would be heartening to think that Durbin will himself now be subjected to some serious torture. Not real torture, of course; I don’t mean using Pol Pot techniques and playing the Celine Dion Christmas album really loud to him. But he should at least be made a little uncomfortable over what he’s done — in a time of war, make an inflammatory libel against his country’s military that has no value whatsoever except to America’s enemies. Shame on him, and shame on those fellow senators and Democrats who by their refusal to condemn him endorse his slander.”
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn19.html
John Cole
I’m not pouncing on anything, for goodness sakes. I am relying on what is publicly known, and asking that it be verified.
Why is that so damned crazy? Even if it is bullshit, the email is troubling, and why we need to investigate it. Do FBI emails about abuse not troble you? Do you not want them looked into?
I don’t know how else to explain this to you, and i am about to give up and just resort to four letter words.
I don’t know if it is true, but it is troubling and should be investigated.
Jeebus.
Darrell
Will yuo people quit trying to boilk everything down into issues of black and white, yes or no
I believe you are the one most guilty of that. Projecting? Please re-read this thread where you, in knee jerk fashion, likened my skepticism of the unverified FBI report with the dismal of all FBI material as “left wing agitrop”.
Isn’t that silly of me? Waiting to get verification before jumping to conclusions and making accusations? Crazy, huh?
Far North
Arrow,
How ’bout condemning the dispicable treatment of detainees at Gitmo? After all, that was the point of Durbin’s comments.
ppgaz
Stormy, last poll I saw, “the rest of you” was hovering at around 41 percent, and on a falling trend. Well, depending on which chunk of the recent polls you believe. More than half the respondents seem not to be convinced that the potatoheads know what they are doing. Their supporters, I call the Onionheads. If you mix up the onionheads and the potatoheads, you have … the GOP. I mean, you have my wife’s fried potatoes. Well anyway, I hate to see your side in this persistent vegitative state ;-)
jdm
> makes me wonder why you think […]
> that the leigitmate opinions of our
> military folks don’t count.
John, John, John… those military folks can just shut the hell up while they’re being used to make Bush look bad.
Because We All Support the Troops. Espcially when they help us score political points.
Mike S
ppgaz
I think you are being unfair to John here. Unlike just about everyone else upset about Durbin’s comments, he actually does have the meat of the statement up. I would have highlighted the defication and urination part but the fact that he even has it there makes him worlds apart from the Talk Radio wing.
I also find it hard to find fault with his reasoning on the usage of Nazi comparrisons. It’s a highly loaded comment especially given the number of survivors still with us.
You should save your distain for people like powerline, Rush and the rest of the Talk Radio blowhards who find it oh so funny and sell shirts saying “I heart Gitmo.” I’m not 100% in agreement with John but appreciate his honesty and willingness to look at both sides of the issue.
ppgaz
Jesus, John … excuse me for not having my own widely circulated blog. Even for the blogosphere, that crack was pretty low grade.
I have not the time, energy or resources to put up a blog. I work 60 hours a week, I take heart pills, I have a busy family and I’m old. This is the best I can do.
I deliberately did not aim my gonad remark at anyone in particular. The entire blogosphere has lost an opportunity on this Durbin thing. Durbin makes an articulate case for detainee reforms.
I agree with him.
ppgaz
Mike S … the “meat” of the statement?
Have you read the speech?
I find the cited portion to be about 6 percent of the total speech. There is no way that this slice can be called the “meat” of the thing. No way in the world.
I refer to Johns “the quote” link in the parent article, versus the excerpt in that article. The excerpt is the basis for all the churn. Around 95% of the speech is outside of that excerpt. the excerpt is not the meat.
ARROW
“How ’bout condemning the dispicable treatment of detainees at Gitmo? After all, that was the point of Durbin’s comments.”
Based on what I know, I don’t think it’s despicable. And no evidence has been presented that the “abuses” that have been committed were in accordance with U.S. policy. Why paint with such a broad brush??
If I had a choice, I would take the “torture” at Gitmo in a heartbeat, over the torture that is being committed on a daily basis by the “insurgents” (that’s MSM code for scum of the earth asswipes) in Iraq. How about you?
John Cole
Darrell:
This is it. I give up. You ARE trying to boil everything down into black or white issues.
The reasons the reports need to be verified is precisely because they are troubling and disturbing. If the email said that every detainee was sitting on a laz-y-boy with a koran on their lap and prayer oil in their hands, then it would not be troubling and they would not need to be verified.
But the reports state something radically different from that, so it is troubling and needs to be verified. Something can be troubling without having been verified- this is a case.
Now that doesn’t mean I think it is the gospel truth, and it doesn’t mean I think that we don’t do a good job over-all with our treatment, but it does mean that I FIND THE REPORTS TROUBLING.
Now if that is just too damned much for you to handle, I am sorry I have offended your delicate sensibilities, but I am now offficially sick and tired of the cheap debating tactics used by everyone on both sides of the aisle.
I am sick and tired of the “Oh it is unverified and bullshit and why do you keep repeating these charges and why are you a Communist and why do you hate our troops” bullshit from the right, and I am equally sick of the “Durbin can call us Nazi’s because we are just as bad as them or not different enough from them and why oh why would military folks be offended by that” from the idiots on the left.
There. I am now reaching for a bottle of Scotch.
Stormy70
ppqaz- Mmmmm. I love fried potatoes. I believe in election returns, not polls. And Gitmo, I believe in Gitmo.
If you go through Santa Fe, eat at Maria’s. The Chili Rejanos (sp) are awesome.
Mike S
Even so ppgaz, the fact that every other complaint about this totally excludes everything up until the rap music part makes this post far more reasonable.
I’m not sure why you would expect John to post the entire speech. That would take an aweful lot of space.
ppgaz
Sure, a camp is a camp is a camp, but a good cuban cigar is a smoke.
Chile Rellenos are the missus’ favorite dish when we are dining out on Mex food. Homemade ones are heavenly. You just char and peel the chiles, stuff them with cheese, batter them and fry them. Yum. Sort of messy to prepare, but well worth it.
Thanks for the Santa Fe tip.
Your I Heart Gitmo shirt is in the mail.
Darrell
Arrow,
How ’bout condemning the dispicable treatment of detainees at Gitmo? After all, that was the point of Durbin’s comments.
Yes, that was the point.. “despicable treatment” of detainees based on an UNVERIFIED FBI report which could well be complete horsesh*t. I expect the lefties like Far North to be hair trigger quick to hurl unfounded smears and accusations about our troops and about our country (in their minds, they see themselves as courageous truth-tellers).. I’m surprised our blog host seems to be doing the same thing by giving such credence to an unverified report which was part of an ongoing investigation
Example: John Cole’s neighbor, envious of Cole’s successful blog and angry that Cole’s dog regularly digs up his flowerbed and sh*ts in his yard, files a report with police alleging that Cole is sexually molesting children. He hears childrens’ screams coming from Cole’s house (nephews stepping in cat poo) and wants something done. A report is filed. A FOIA request reveals the police report about Cole. It is a “troubling” report.
ppgaz
Mike, I am not suggesting that anyone post the speech. I am suggesting that everyone read it in its entirety.
Just for grinskys, chop out the part being bandied about the b-sphere (John’s shaded excerpt, for example) and reevaluate the speech. You’ll see, I propose, that the speech still works just fine and makes the same points, just fine.
p.lukasiak
I don’t think that Durbin “queered the debate”, John, because before Durbin spoke there was no debate — just a bunch of reports of torture and abuse, a bunch of responses from the Bush regime saying that torture isn’t policy, that it isn’t happening, that its just some “bad apples” that are being “investigated”….
Durbin made the debate — his words were a direct appeal to the consciounce and integrity of the American people. He said, in the kind of simple language that red-staters appear to prefer, that what the Bush regime is doing is not merely unAmerican—it is antithetical to who were are as Americans.
I think that if you were to do some research, you would find that there are lots of congresscritters who have criticized the torture and abuse of detainees in the manner that you suggest Durbin do. And those criticisms get ignored.
The problem isn’t Durbin’s use of language, the problem is that the only way to reach the American consciousness at this point about what we are doing to detainees is to allow the facts to be heard by surrounding them with “inflamatory language”.
Far North
Arrow,
So, as long as we aren’t as bad as the insurgents, all is OK with you?
Low standards.
Mike S
Just to catch up, which documents are in dispute? I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that Durbin was using docs that were given to the aclu under the foia.
ppgaz
Gee, this is hard work. Apologies to GWB, of course.
Mike, I agree, John’s blog is probably the most honest stream in the blogosphere. That’s why I hang around it. I reserve the right to disagree, though, and to do so in my patented obnoxious manner. One must be true to one’s true nature. I am obnoxious, I make no bones about it. In a lovable and nurturing way, of course. Apologies here to Dame Edna Everidge.
James Emerson
Bottom line is that if you act like a Nazi, eventually someone will compare you to one.
Are our troops Nazis? EMPHATICALLY NO!
Have we tortured detainees? UNDOUBTEDLY YES!
As an American who served time in the Marine Corps, I am appalled by our use of torture either directly or through outsourcing. I can see no benefit derived from its use. I can only see it use as an impediment to a successful conclusion to the GWOT. When we torture, we become no different than the terrorists we fight. We willingly concede the moral high ground only to descend into the futility of an amoral morass.
The justification for torture came from the administration. So far they have refused to acknowledge that, even though the “torturegate memos” seem quite clear about it. We need to fully investigate how torture went from being an aberration from standing regulation and law to a well coordinated systemic and systematic operation. Failing that we risk being labelled as Nazis.
If a senior Democrat gets the ball rolling through what in normal times would be considered rhetorical extremism, then so be it. We will never fully informed by playing nice. When you play hardball, you bring a bigger bat.
I applaud Senator Durbin, and have sent him an email in support of his statement. When so many otherwise rational people support the abandonment of long standing international and domestic law for an illusory gain, then detonating a rhetorical “nuclear option” just might get their attention. God knows that the rational mild mannered approach hasn’t worked.
Darrell
they are what an FBI agent observed.
I missed that earlier. If that report was in fact a FBI agent reporting abuse first hand, if that’s true, makes a big difference in my mind. I still think we should wait for the investigation to be completed before jumping to conclusions.
MikeS, yes, this was an unverified report, obtained on a FOIA request, which is part of an ongoing investigation
Mike S
Thanks. I’ll watch for verification or refutattion.
Louis Lemire
What do you call someone that puts electrodes on your nuts? Fairy God Mother?
Get a life – Durbin called a spade a spade – if they don’t want to be referred to as Nazis then they should behave that way.
In the words of our illustrious VP, for of you that had a problem with Durbin’s statement:
“Go Fuck Yourselves”
Stormy70
Classy thread. Durbin deserves the shitstorm that has blown up around him, and I hope you Dems run on this issue in 2006.
ARROW
“So, as long as we aren’t as bad as the insurgents, all is OK with you?”
Well, when you can document some REAL torture, I might get outraged. Flushing Korans and chaining some guy to the floor, doesn’t do it for me. Now is that the type of treatment Rellenos-eating, scotch-sipping, “civilized” folks would condone? NO. But trying to win a war on terror does not fall into that category. War by its very nature is not civil. In my books, prison under any circumstances is torture.
Since many of their countrise of origin don’t want to deal with them, maybe would just let these poor innocents go in your neighborhood?
Birkel
In whose poo and pee was that terrorist covered?
Are you Lefties really arguing that he couldn’t hold a poo for all of 24 hours? Seriously?
And don’t forget the guy who pulled his own hair out of his own head. We’re supposed to feel sorry for him too, right?
Mike S
Birkel, a proud member of the “Moral Values” coalition.
Stormy70
Rellenos eating – check
Scotch-sipping – check
Civilized – not so much ;-)
KC
I just posted this link in the other comments section, but I’ll post it here too.
Apparently, the Iranian conservatives just “thanked” president Bush for their successes in the recent elections. I’d like to say something keen about the Durbin flap now but honestly, I’ve got nothing to say.
pol
This whole thing is stupid and should be ignored.
Birkel
KC,
Spreading what you admitted were likely lies of the Iranians on this thread too, eh? Good one KC! Good one.
Mike S,
When did I join this “Moral Values” coalition? I don’t remember paying dues or receiving my membership card.
And am I really supposed to feel sorry for a terrorist who pulls the hair out of his own head? That’s puzzling.
Birkel
KC,
Meanwhile the NYT is reporting the Iranian elections were rigged according to one of the former candidates.
Weird, eh?
ARROW
Birkel
Anybody that doesn’t adopt the mantra of the left is a religious fanatic. Didn’t you know that?
Birkel
Does the fact that I worship only the Purple Dragon from the Candy Planet, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny matter, ARROW?
Just so I’ll know…
ARROW
When you disagree with them, your choice of religious practice is irrelevant. But generally, you’re viewed as a fundamentalist (aka, fundi) regardless of your actual practices, or lack thereof.
Nosgroth
Arrow: Well, when you can document some REAL torture, I might get outraged.
None of you get. Anyone on this thread have a clue why even Scalia was forced to write in the Padilla case, “the President is not a king”? The President is accountable to us — the People. Not the obverse. We don’t have to document anything. The President, and those who execute his authority, are obliged to document to us.
We are a nation of laws, not men. It’s that simple. They wrote it all down somewhere. That is why, John, people need to be reminded how badly this story can go. The constitution is just a piece of paper, and a fragile one at that.
BTW, didn’t Ricky Santorum use the forbidden Nazi word, too? Oh, that was in reference to Democrats. Never mind. Doesn’t count, obviously.
MI
I think this might be the thread in which John’s head actually explodes.
About this whole mess: Durbin didn’t compare our soldiers to nazis, but his language was still inappropriate/stupid for the reasons John has already stated…..I thought I was going to write a whole big speech/rant, but really, that about covers it.
MI
Oh, and the reaction from the right to Durbin’s comments has been as embarrassing as the comments themselves, so I call a draw. Unless you actually purchase and wear an “I Love Gitmo” t-shit..In which case you’re a bigger loser than Durbin and Rush combined. Congratulations.
RSA
Darrell writes, That would be an unverified FBI report which Durbin read in an email. Unverified.
So one natural response is to ask for an investigation into these heinous accusations. As I recall, the Democratic party is involved with legislation to establish a congressional committee to investigate abuses of detainees in U.S. custody. Republican support for this should be a no-brainer, given the controversy. Will it happen?
ppgaz
You are right, and wrong, MI, unless you think that the story is about who can, and cannot, use the new “N” word.
It should be about the detainee policies. The rightwing noise machine has made sure that everyone is properly distracted, and the blogosphere is only too happy to cooperate.
Cranky Guy
The plural of “Nazi” is “Nazis” !
Mike S
Would you all call this reasonable?
[The US soldier] volunteered to wear an orange jumpsuit and portray an uncooperative detainee. Baker said the MPs, who were told that he was an unruly detainee who had assaulted an American sergeant, inflicted a beating that resulted in a traumatic brain injury.
[…]
The Pentagon initially said that Baker’s hospitalization following the training incident was not related to the beating. Later, officials conceded that he was treated for injuries suffered when a five-man MP “internal reaction force” choked him, slammed his head several times against a concrete floor and sprayed him with pepper gas.
The drill took place in a prison isolation wing reserved for suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban detainees who were disruptive or had attacked MPs.
Baker said he put on the jumpsuit and squeezed under a prison bunk after being told by a lieutenant that he would be portraying an unruly detainee. He said he was assured that MPs conducting the “extraction drill” knew it was a training exercise and that Baker was an American soldier.
As he was being choked and beaten, Baker said, he screamed a code word, “red,” and shouted: “I’m a U.S. soldier! I’m a U.S. soldier!” He said the beating continued until the jumpsuit was yanked down during the struggle, revealing his military uniform.
The lawsuit says of the extraction team: “Armed with the highly inflammatory, false, incendiary and misleading information that had been loaded into their psyches by their platoon leader, these perceptions and fears … became their operative reality, and they acted upon these fears, all to the detriment of Sean Baker.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo18jun18,1,1411045.story
ARROW
Nosgroth: “The President is accountable to us — the People.”
Yes Presidents are accountable to the People. But, apparently they are not subject to our Nation of laws. Didn’t President Clinton avoid jail time for his obvious breach of the perjury statutes? And a Nation of laws not men probably explains why judges overturn voter referendums (laws) in favor of their concept of what should be. You know, sort of like a king would operate. But they color this decision with highfalutin references to the Constitution, and what is acceptable in Europe. That’s probably okay with you as long as your ox is not being gored.
So what you’re saying is that the President must dispatch a commission to investigate and document every moonbat accusation made by a member of the People? Just so we’re on the same page, are foreign terrorists part of the People?
Bob
Ah, Newt, who was fucking someone other than his wife on his desk while claiming that Susan Smith drove her car into a lake to drown two little kids because of Bill Clinton’s immorality.
Scum such as Newt have no shame. That’s why they keep coming back.
And so we can have Bill Frist, between making video diagnoses, inventing things that Durbin didn’t say in order to make his case.
I don’t hear anyone say that Frist’s lies might be picked up and misinterpreted by jihadists.
This is such a dumb country. We have a bunch of rich thugs who are overseeing an illegal war, lying, directing torture, when they cannot get a severe enough torture they pick people up off the streets and ship them off to third countries and have them tortured there. This is sick behavior, and the guy on the top of all this is George W. Bush. If the NY Times had run his name in the Yale frat-branding story back in 1967 maybe the sick sadist wouldn’t have ever run for office.
Mike S
spARROW
It would be much easier and quicker if you just labeled these comments Hannity/Hewitt Talking points 1-?.
HHTP1 Clinton…
HHTP2 Anti/unAmerican…
HHTP3 Traitor…
HHTP4 Want us to lose.
That way we can move through your comments faster.
metalgrid
John,
At some point, people need to stop elevating Nazi’s to the status of demons and devils and realize that they were human and it is a direction in which humans can slide. How can we ever learn from the lessons of history when the mere mention of Nazi actions without even a direct comparison in itself sends people into convulsions? There is a very thin line between facism and cheap nationalism, one that our politicians seem to be bent on walking while taking our kids in the military along for the ride.
ARROW
Mike S:
Not that it would matter to you, but I don’t watch or listen to Hannity/Hewitt. But even if I did, what bearing does that have on anything? Is that what you do when you can’t defend your positions, resort to ad hominem attacks?
Like I’ve said before, why don’t you just shutup until you have something worth saying.
Kimmitt
There would be no legitimate grievance
And that’s my point — that there need be no legitimate grievance for the wingnuts to go insane. I think that you are incorrect on this issue.
Mike S
spARROW
I have made and defended my positions clearly. It was you who chose to use the pathetic and over used talking points about Clinton. It’s typical Hannity/Hewitt so even if you don’t watch listen, which I doubt, it shows just how weak you are.
One day I’d like the dumb assed, 10 year old child’s excuse of “he did it too” to slip out of use. Obviously that’s asking too much from someone like you.
ARROW
Mike S:
Nosgroth was the one spouting highfalutin references to the Constitution and a “nation of laws, not men.” I just illustrated a different view using concrete examples. Do you dispute my examples?
Hannah
John, I thank you for your thoughtful comments. I happened to be listening to CSPAN2 when Durbin was giving his speech and found it very compelling; it was obvious that, as a Patriot of this country, as an elected legislator, he was upset about the content of his speech, but it had to be said. He made the case very clearly that torture is NOT an American value, that our nation suffers (reputation, leadership) when we choose this practice, and that it was wrong for the Bush administration to say it was OK to ignore the Geneva conventions.
Sure, Durbin could have just said “repressive regime”. BUT, by invoking Nazis, etc. don’t you suppose he was WARNING US that we must stop this action; that what is happening now could escalate into something as horrible as those regimes?
From what I’ve read, the stories coming out of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo are just the tip of the iceberg. I’ve read that some of those in Gitmo were just innocent bystanders (not combatants) who were rounded up and sold by Afghanis to the US. I’ve read about women (wives, mothers, etc.) of those in Abu Ghraib who were captured and tortured themselves to try to get the men to talk. Why on earth is this being done? In the name of America?
Personally, I’m ashamed. Of course, I have no sympathy for terrorists, for Saddam Hussein. But we’ve got to stop the torture, and we’ve got to release the innocent.
And I also thank ppgaz, p. lukasiak and James Emerson for their thoughtful comments.
Hannah
John, I thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I happened to be listening to CSPAN2 when Durbin was giving his speech and found it very compelling; it was obvious that, as a Patriot of this country, as an elected legislator, he was upset about the content of his speech, but it had to be said. He made the case very clearly that torture is NOT an American value, that our nation suffers (reputation, leadership) when we choose this practice, and that it was wrong for the Bush administration to say it was OK to ignore the Geneva conventions.
Sure, Durbin could have just said “repressive regime”. BUT, by invoking Nazis, etc. don’t you suppose he was WARNING US that we must stop this action; that what is happening now could escalate into something as horrible as those regimes?
From what I’ve read, the stories coming out of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo are just the tip of the iceberg. I’ve read that some of those in Gitmo were just innocent bystanders (not combatants) who were rounded up and sold by Afghanis to the US. I’ve read about women (wives, mothers, etc.) of those in Abu Ghraib who were captured and tortured themselves to try to get the men to talk. Why on earth is this being done? In the name of America?
Personally, I’m ashamed. Of course, I have no sympathy for terrorists, for Saddam Hussein. But we’ve got to stop the torture, and we’ve got to release the innocent.
And I also thank ppgaz, p. lukasiak and James Emerson for their thoughtful comments.
ARROW
Hannah:
I thank you for your thoughtful comments. And I also thank Senator Durbin for making an inflammatory libel against his country’s military, in a time of war, that has no value whatsoever except to America’s enemies. Patriots like the Senator are rare indeed. Yes, a wonder exemplar of all that’s good and worthy.
Hannah
Arrow, it’s obvious from all of your comments how open-minded you are.
Congratulations.
Hannah
BTW, the buck stops at the top. The administration is to be blamed, which is clearly what Durbin was saying. The men and women on the ground are just obeying orders.
ARROW
Hannah. It obvious from your comments how truly clueless you are.
Congratulaions.
HH
Very hot rooms with loud music playing are not in the same galaxy as Nazi atrocities, call me crazy.
Mike S
HH
I’m sure you’re used to laying in your own filth as well.
Jon H
The ‘torture house’ discovered by Marines might provide a suitable replacement for the Nazis in rhetoric.
Excluding the jihad manuals found there, how would you distinguish it from our own work?
I wonder if we’ve ever liberated a torture house that turned out to be a CIA operation…
Hannah
Oh, Arrow, now I get it: you’re a parrot!
Hannah, done with this bird
Bill Kennedy
I wonder how many of those expressing such indignation over the exposure of some of the goings-on at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib realize what it is they are making excuses for.
Another effect of the Bush disaster: He’s reduced his otherwise reasonably decent followers to torture apologists.
Far North
This is one of the most interesting sites there is right now. The comments section illustrates just what kind of mindset we have to fight in America.
First, there are those of us who find torture reprehensible in most circumstances. We express disgust at the incompetent management of the occupation of Iraq and abloslute revulsion at the management of the chain of detention centers across the world.
Then there are the Bush apologists who first deny torture, then excuse torture, then justify torture. Finally, and almost without exception, they attack Americans who insist on holding American conduct to the highest of standards. To the Bush apologist, anyone against torture or anyone critical of America’s conduct in the running of these prison camps or detention centers are America hating traitors.
This issue isn’t Durbin’s choice of words. But the Bush apologists are more angry at that than the charges of American sponsored torture.
It’s quite a contrast we have: those of us who want to uphold the highest standards of America behavior and American conduct and those that deny, excuse and then justify torture.
’bout says it all about the moral bankruptcy of the Bush apologist.
Deny, excuse, justify and attack. Deny, excuse, justify and attack. Repeat endlessly (Limbaugh, Coulter talking point 591).
Vinnie
There is simply no excuse for what these lying war criminals have done to this nation. They have, indeed, turned us into Nazis. No matter how much they deny it, they are fascist sons of bitches. The whole damned country is in denial.
ppgaz
Doing a little housekeeping here, going over the thread, I somehow forgot to mention this yesterday, due to the heat of “battle” over words here ….
I am always amused by pundits or blogmasters who are either frustrated, or satisfied, because they are taking flak from both “sides” in a debate.
It’s as if two-way flak is too much to bear, or that it somehow indicates how “fair” or “balanced” the original material was.
Does it ever occur to the punditocracy that they just might be wrong about something? That maybe the black-white, A-B, tastes-great-less-filling version of a story isn’t the only way to tell that story? To think outside the box? That maybe the polarized appearance of the thing is result of the pundits’ own addiction to polarized discussion and bloviating?
And since I’m me, I always have to add …. “fair” and “balanced” are bullshit words. Facts are not fair, facts are not balanced. Facts are just facts. The compulsion to put overlays of fairness and balance onto stories is just a cop out. It’s delusional, or more likely, it’s just dishonest and manipulative.
“Democrats say the earth is round, but Republicans say that through most of human history, it was known to be flat.” There, fair and balanced. Darwin said this, but Intelligent Design proponents say that. Your lying eyes tell you that Iraq is a fucking debacle, but the president says that the insurgency is in its “final throes.”
Someday, facts will be understood as facts, and treated with respect, first by journalists who take pains to get them right, and then by info consumers who give them proper consideration.
Durbin DID NOT say that we are like Nazis. In fact, he said EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE, and his words are out there in various archives, and you can look them up and judge for yourself.
metalgrid
BTW, the buck stops at the top. The administration is to be blamed, which is clearly what Durbin was saying. The men and women on the ground are just obeying orders.
Posted by Hannah at June 19, 2005 08:51 PM
I don’t think ‘just obeying orders’ worked for the Nazis either. I’m just curious why we haven’t seen soldiers court-martialled for refusing to follow orders to torture prisoners?
Rick
They have, indeed, turned us into Nazis. No matter how much they deny it, they are fascist sons of bitches. The whole damned country is in denial.
It’s wonderful when the political science experts and analysts check in. I’d better start packing for New Zealand.
Cordially…
ppgaz
Hasta la vista.
Rick
Yeah, I just wanna take care not to stumble into that Christchurch fundie hell-hole.
Cordially…
Hannah
ppgaz wrote: “Durbin DID NOT say that we are like Nazis. In fact, he said EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE, and his words are out there in various archives, and you can look them up and judge for yourself.”
Wow, this is perfectly said. And to go on from there, if Americans are not Nazis, then why are we starting to mimic them?
This goes back to my thought that Durbin was WARNING us to stop what we are doing in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.
ppgaz
Well, nobody really asked me, but since I have a lull this morning ….
I don’t think we are mimicking Nazis.
I think that the Nazis were just a particularly bad expression of human nature. A nexus of all our worst tendencies.
So the fact that we sometimes show our worst tendencies — because we are human — doesn’t make us Nazis. It just makes us human.
Luckily, humans have choices, and we can choose to be better than our worst angels. Which to me is what Durbin was saying, and saying quite eloquently.
Rick
Wise council from Dick Durbin. Could happen…in some weird, backwards universe, where pinheads are king.
Cordially…
reallygone
If I read the FBI report, I would NOT think it was about torture at all, let alone the kinds of abuse found in Soviet gulags (actually read about those and compare http://www.drdance.com/dunc/gulag.htm or http://www.paulmitchinson.com/gulag.html), or Nazi extermination camps (read about those accounts http://www.cympm.com/extermination.html). For Durbin to make such comparisons is disgusting and an insult to the memory of the millions of people who were cast into the Soviet and Nzi camps. Durbin has inflicted fetid, oozing wound in the history of the U.S. Senate.
ppgaz
No it isn’t, and no he hasn’t.
I Heart Gitmo shirts are far more damaging to this country, by orders of magnitude. And the smokescreen you are throwing up to hide it isn’t very convincing.
Let’s spend our energy on cleaning up the quagmire of the detainee policies, and then everybody wins.
Mike S
Where’s the outrage on all of these? Oh wait, they’re all Republicans so these comparrisons must be OK.
White House confidante Grover Norquist, known for his blistering attacks on U.S. taxes, likened the estate tax to the “morality of the Holocaust” in October 2003.
“The argument that some who play to the politics of hate and envy and class division will say is, ‘Well, that’s only 2 percent — or, as people get richer, 5 percent, in the near future — of Americans likely to have to pay [the estate tax],” he told NPR. “I mean, that’s the morality of the Holocaust: ‘Oh, it’s only a small percentage. It’s not you; it’s somebody else.'”
After being criticized for his remarks, Norquist expanded them in 2004 to include Democrats.
“The Nazis were for gun control, the Nazis were for high marginal tax rates…. Do you want to talk about who’s closer politically to national socialism, the Right or the Left?” he told the Jewish newspaper The Forward. He also “told the Forward that he would not hesitate to use Holocaust comparisons in the future.”
A Republican senator invoked Nazism when criticizing stem cell research last year.
“We certainly have all seen the rejections of Nazi Germany’s abuses of science,” Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) declared regarding his opposition to stem cell research last October. “As a society and a nation, there ought to be some limit on what we can allow or should allow.”
In response to a ruling on abortion last September, Congressman Steve King said following law on reproductive rights equivalent to a Nazi guard saying he was following orders.
“That, Mr. Speaker, is a `modern-day’ equivalent of the Nazi prison guard saying ‘I was just following orders,'” he said on the House floor Sept. 8, 2004. “It was all legal in Nazi Germany at the time.”
Another senator even compared the Kyoto climate treaty to Nazism, repeating a quotation from a Russian official.
Sen. James Inhofe said Oct. 11, 2004 that Kyoto “would deal a powerful blow on the whole humanity similar to the one humanity experienced when Nazism and communism flourished.”
The Oklahoma Republican added, “The world has certainly turned on its head that we Americans must look to Russians for speaking out strongly against irrational authoritarian ideologies.”
Sen. Tom Cole (R-OK) dragged out Hitler to hit Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry.
“Cole Claims a Vote Against Bush Is a Vote For Hitler.” KTOK radio in Oklahoma blared last year.
“Republican Congressman Tom Cole claims a vote against the `re-election’ of President Bush is like supporting Adolph Hitler during World War Two,” the station reported. “It’s what he said recently before a meeting of Canadian County Republicans.”
Cole later codified his statement, saying through a spokesperson: “What do you think Hitler would have thought if Roosevelt would’ve lost the election in 1944?”
Others, too, have likened Democratic policy to Nazism. Former Sen. Phil Gramm (R-TX) compared a Democratic tax plan to Nazi law in 2002.
“Now, forgive me, but that is right out of Nazi Germany,” Gramm said. “I don’t understand … why all of a sudden we are passing laws that sound as if they are right out of Nazi Germany.”
Rick
You mean there *wasn’t* outrage? Let me fill the lacunae: outrageous.
Now, back to Dick Durbin’s boner.
Cordially…
ppgaz
All missing the point, as usual.
The “N” word lost its capacity to actually stir anyone a long time ago.
All of this churn is just red meat to embedded interests. On the scale of Important Things, it’s somewhere below zero.
What Durbin actually said is vailable in its entirety, and what he said was exactly right, both as to the facts, and as to the rhetoric.
This story hasn’t budged the missing Aruba Damsel from the top of the Faux News playlist.
jdm
> The “N” word lost its capacity to
> actually stir anyone a long time ago.
Has it? I’d say some 300 comments spread over a couple of posts by John C might qualify as actually causing a stir.
Randolph Fritz
By the way, one of the Democratic sites has a long list of Republican Nazi references. We are “just shocked, shocked.”
See http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/6/20/13736/2743
scs
I don’t know, I think people overreact to a few little Nazi references. I have sympathy for Durbin, as I too like to be dramatic in my comparisons.
jcricket
Those of you continually willing to believe that what’s going on in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib is not torture would do well to read this summary at
Andrew Sullivan’s blog
It quotes from the government and the Red Cross’ official reports. Yes, that’s right, the military has officially documented the outcome of Rumsfeld, Bush and Gonzalez equivocation on torture.
The few examples referred to by Durbin or in the released photos are merely the tip of the iceberg (unfortunately). This isn’t meant to imply that a majority of soldiers are guilty of torture, but it’s also not one or two “bad apples” It starts with an official policy at the top and flows down from there to create a culture where this stuff inevitably happens.
Continuing to deny, minimize and justify the torture in these prisons allows the torture to continue, which is what really hurts US credibility, and ultimately the troops.
Or have you forgotten that one of the reasons we hew to the Geneva convention is so that we have the moral high ground when claiming the other side shouldn’t be torturing our captured (troops or otherwise).
Randolph Fritz
By the way, one of the Democratic sites has a long list of Republican Nazi references. We are “just shocked, shocked.”
See http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/6/20/13736/2743
curious
Where was the conservative outrage machine when Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA) recently compared the Democrats to HITLER over the issue of the filibuster of Bush judicial nominees?
“What the Democrats are doing is the equivalent of Adolf Hitler in 1942 saying, ‘I’m in Paris. How dare you invade me. How dare you bomb my city? It’s mine.’ This is no more the rule of the senate than it was the rule of the senate before not to filibuster.”
Rick
curious,
Gotcha covered: see my machine-generated response of 1:49 p.m.
Everyone know the ‘pubbies are permitted only to equate Democrats to commies. It’s some kind of rule.
Cordially…
Kimmitt
No, no, red-baiting is so ’80s. The new way to demonstrate your disdain for basic American values is to terrorist-bait.
HH
So “laying in your own filth” is what allows it to be compared to Nazis? The mass slaughter, gas chambers, etc., never mind those? Wow.