You gotta just love politics. If you thought this was offensive:
If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.
Then pretty clearly you should be able to understand why this is being perceived as offensive:
“Has there ever been a more revealing moment this year?” Mr. Rove asked. “Let me just put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals.”
One says that certain acts of abuse are reminiscent of tyrannical and murderous dictatorships (and admittedly over-the-top statement) but not as asserted, a smear of all American soldiers. The other claims that all liberals want to put our troops in danger, an outright smear and slur if there ever was one.
The hubris deepens.
Mr.Ortiz
Wow, and I thought Rove was supposed to be the smart one.
Tim F
Nobody has ever stated more clearly the GOP platform from the 2002 midterm elections.
Tim F
Of all the responses from left blogosphere Carpetbagger probably says it best:
Rove, for all his strategic insight, seems to have looked at the post-9/11 world
Mike S
The politics of division. In 2001 everyone knew we were in this together. Today, not so much.
I’m so tired of this “hate America” and “want us to lose” crap. We disagree on tactics and paths to making this country better. We even disagree at times on what makes this country great. But that is far different than what is being said here. And I am tired of it.
Everybody here must have friends from the opposing party. How many of those friends hate America? If you’re like me, not a single one. Or they wouldn’t be our friends. It’s time to get reasonable and rational again. It’s time to debate on the merits of the arguments as opposed to assigning nefarious motives. Neither side is blamelss in all of this but it will take both sides to put and end to it.
Marcus Wellby
Mike S,
Truer words were never spoken.
Stormy 70
No, the left just wants to turn the air conditioning up at Gitmo, and make sure we don’t fight back because that “will create more terrorism, boo,hoo.” Whatever. I would not trust anyone in the Democratic party on national security issues with their track record of bitching about every move America takes to defend itself. Why did I hear a constant refrain from the left saying “Why do they hate us? We deserved this for our policies.” I heard this less than a week after the attacks. As soon as the War on Terror got hard, the Dems started bailing. Of course, the left’s answer was to go to the UN and the international “community”. Sure, like that would ever keep America safe. Funny, I don’t think Al Jazeera will be broadcasting Karl Rove’s quote like they did Durbin’s. Maybe, Karl is calling it like he’s seeing it. The liberal ALCU and the International Red Cross (sans Israel) have been on their backs, since a month after the attacks, claiming “terrorists have rights, blah,blah,blah.” The left quickly latched onto any cause that went against America, and their Congressmen quickly followed.
Tim F
I like the title ‘Rorscach test.’ You can tell so much about people by how they respond to this.
Darrell
Well let’s see, on one hand Al Jazeera *really is* replaying Durbin’s remarks to stir up its terrorist base to kill more of our troops. How dare Rove point out this fact. Comments from Dems such as Durbin, with their outrageous over-the-top-smears, really and truly are providing fodder for the terrorists. How outrageous of Rove to point this out. You really have a ‘solid’ point there John, let me tell you.
I mean after all, everyone can see how impossibly difficult it is to express concern over this or that interrogation technique without comparing it to the killing fields of Cambodia, right? Right?
Andrei
“No, the left just wants to turn the air conditioning up at Gitmo, and make sure we don’t fight back because that ‘will create more terrorism, boo,hoo.’ ”
Until people like you get off your ass and sign up for the reserves to go fight the good fight, spare us please. At this stage, I’m sick of hearing anyone who is pro-war complain about the left unless those people start heading over to fight. Especially considering how obvious it is that we don’t have enough troops over there to see this thing through with any resasonable measure of control.
“I would not trust anyone in the Democratic party on national security issues with their track record of bitching about every move America takes to defend itself.”
But you will trust a party that botched the justifications for war with the intelligence used to sell it and then really botched the post-war occupation execution. Got it.
“As soon as the War on Terror got hard, the Dems started bailing.”
Bullshit.
As it stands now, even reps like Chuck Hagel are complaining vocally about the post war status and execution. So I guess he hates America too.
“The left quickly latched onto any cause that went against America, and their Congressmen quickly followed.”
More bullshit.
But hey, if you want to live in a country where you call your neighbor names and then expect them to pay taxes and fight for your rights and die for their country just so they can give you the privelege of being a generalizing asshole, then I guess God bless America.
Andrei
“Comments from Dems such as Durbin, with their outrageous over-the-top-smears, really and truly are providing fodder for the terrorists. ”
As opposed to the accusations themselves (which are alleged from an FBI agent, not Durbin), or things like the photos from Abu Grahib.
For fuck’s sake.
It’s not the actions that piss the jihadists off… It’s the guy making the COMMENTS about the actions that pisses the jihadists off.
Right. Of course. How so correct you are.
Stormy 70
God Bless America. Must have hit a nerve. I am a Republican, so I know I already pay more taxes than you. ;)
Ed
I do understand why people were upset by Durbin’s comments, because he compared common stress techniques, approved by administration lawyers, in compliance (or believed compliance) with U.S. laws and treaties, with mass murder and appalling butchery of human beings.
Now, people might believe that these stress techniques constitute torture, but that is a debateable point (I don’t, because I think torture is something that everybody in the world would recognize, like beating the soles of somebody’s feet, or hanging them by their wrists and hitting them with electrical shocks). Being debateable, I believe the outrage should be tempered.
But even if these stress techniques WERE torture, comparing this behaviour to the behaviour of the SS, the KGB, or Pol Pot’s mass murders (and that is exactly what Durbin did, no matter how you try to parse what he said) is beyond the pale, and incredibly offensive to Americans, America, and the soldiers who serve America.
Could this be just rhetorical overkill? Sure, but it is so reminisent of the Democratic party when it comes to issues of the military (remember when the Democratic presidential candidate said his comrades in arms violated human rights–via murder and the like–every day during Vietnam?) that I’m not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Also, Durbin made his statement not at a fundraiser, where everyone is looking for a little red meat, but on the floor of congress. This contrasts with Rove’s statements, which were at a fundraiser.
Also, what did Rove say? That the motives of liberals are to put our troops in danger. I could put together a list of statements from Democrats, many very influential in the Democratic party (think Michael Moore and George Soros and Howard Dean) whose statements are in many ways incredible, in that they are not far from Durbin’s remarks. They conflate the imperfect workings of a Democracy struggling to come to terms with an ideology and a group intent on its total destruction, which knows no civilized bounds of behaviour in warfare (where children are legitimate targets, not just collateral damage) and its enemies.
Karl Rove is of course making a generalization when he says that this is the true motive of all liberals, but, listening to the Democrats and their allies, I would say that about half of the hard-core Democratic supporters blame America for all the evil in the world, and would like to see us taken down a notch.
Even if you argue their motives are pure, their words and actions have consequences, which are not good for America. So, even if Rove is wrong about motives, I would argue that he’s right about the effect of Durbin’s and many Democrat’s actions.
One more word. These Democrats don’t make valid criticisms, they appear to have a desire to see only evil in America, for whatever reasons (political or through a sincere belief), without caring how it affects our will to win a war against an enemy that is, in a word, evil.
If this isn’t unpatriotic, I don’t know what is.
Andrei
“God Bless America. Must have hit a nerve. I am a Republican, so I know I already pay more taxes than you. ;)”
Considering my household income last year was more than $400,000, I already know for sure I pay my fair share.
Stormy 70
How about paying my share since you don’t like your tax cut?
Rick
…even reps like Chuck Hagel are complaining…
Wow. Stop the presses. Him? No way!
But that should be Rep-*lite* Chuck Hagel.
Cordially…
gratefulcub
They turn on their own so fast.
Kimmitt
How about paying my share since you don’t like your tax cut?
Typical Republican corporate welfare recipient.
Rick
They turn on their own so fast.
G-club,
If you mean me, in any way, my turning was accomplished 4 or 5 years ago, and took a couple years to “come about.”
For reasons best expressed by the editor of the local Moonie paper, the Washington Times: “…Hagel, who wants to be John McCain when he grows up…”
Cordially…
Tim F
Must have hit a nerve.
The troll identifies himself. Tip: once a troll has revealed that all he cares about is pissing you off and not making any sort of coherent point, tune them out. Ask yourself whether you want to validate somebody’s sociopathic need to grief other people.
Rocky
The simple fact that al- Jazirah is broadcasting Durbin’s remarks says it all for me. That’s aid and comfort to the enemy, even if you won’t admit it.
Jimmy Jazz
“Let me just put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals.”
Let me put this in simple terms: since the right wing noise machine amplified and repeated Durbin’s words over and over and over again at their typical Spinal Tap volume levels while taking them out of context and distorting them, UNTIL EVERYONE IN THE WORLD HEARD THEM, it sorta undercuts Unca Karl’s argument a tad.
John S
Rorschach test indeed. Mike S takes this as an opportunity for reflection and moderation, while the usual suspects go rhetorically nuclear in an orgy of demonization and self-congratulation.
Oh well. Add another one to the list of blogs where there’s no need to read the comments.
Andrei
“How about paying my share since you don’t like your tax cut?”
How about you grow a brain and learn how to make some money?
Swish
So when W’s remarks about a ‘crusade’ are boadcast on Al Jazeera, or his comment to the terrorists to ‘Bring it on’, does this mean his motives are clear as well?
Sojourner
Oh please. You think the folks over in Iraq are more upset by Durbin’s words than the reports they’re getting back from their friends who’ve been released from Abu Ghraib and other U.S custody? You think they’re more upset about Durbin’s words than hearing about Iraqi women and children who were raped while in U.S. custody? Or about innocent Iraqis who were jailed and died while in U.S. custody?
Anybody who believes that has seriously lost contact with the real world. Perhaps you guys care only about words and not actions, but I seriously doubt the Iraqis have drank the same Kool-Aid.
AB
Really? Al Jazeerah is repeated Durbin’s words? You got an actual citation for that? Someone who actually reads arabic looked at their website, and, well,
they’re not.