Andrew Sullivan and Tacitus chime on on the Rove smear of all liberals. Andrew first:
Some defenses of Karl Rove’s rolling out of the “stab-in-the-back” ploy to cover for possible future failure in Iraq have made an important semantic point. They say that the people I cited – Christopher Hitchens, Tom Friedman, Paul Berman, Joe Lieberman, The New Republic, and so on – are not “liberals”. They’re centrists or mavericks or oddballs like yours truly. What Rove was doing, they say, is citing hard-left types like Michael Moore and Moveon.org and Kucinich and the like. He doesn’t mean all mainstream liberals. But this is too clever by half.
The rubric Rove used was the “conservative-liberal” rubric, in which the entire polity is bifurcated into one type or the other. All non-liberals are, in Rove’s rubric, conservatives; and all non-conservatives are liberals. This is in keeping with the very familiar electoral tactic of describing even moderate or centrist Democrats as “liberals” with as broad a brush as possible. Rove, in other words, cannot have it both ways. He cannot both use the word liberal to describe everyone who is not a Republican and then, in other contexts, say he means it only for the hard left. Rove is a smart guy. He picked his words carefully.
A simple addition of the word “some” would have rendered his comments completely inoffensive. But he left that qualifier out. For a reason. I see no difference between his generalizations and Howard Dean’s unhinged rants about Republicans. Except that Rove is running an administration that is running a vital war. With that kind of power should come a tiny bit more responsibility.
Or a touch more dignity and graciousness. Now, on to Tacitus:
The remarkable thing about the excuse-making for Karl Rove is how intellectually dishonest so much of it is.
Yep, you read that right. Read on…
Rove’s ham-handed disingenuousness wasn’t merely inept: it’s not even particularly true.
On a broader point, rhetoric such as this is simply unbecoming to a White House that purportedly seeks to lead the whole of America. While it’s true that pacifist, defeatist leftists such as those at Moveon.org do exist, it’s also true that most self-identified liberals heartily supported the invasion of Afghanistan and the goal — pathetically still unmet after forty-five months — of capturing or killing Osama bin Laden. It is further true that most liberals gave the President the benefit of the doubt in the invasion of Iraq. In this group, I count my wife, a liberal and a Democrat both, and a 9/11 refugee from downtown Manhattan to boot; along with many friends.It’s also true that pacifist, defeatist conservatives exist. No prize for figuring out who they are.
So what was the purpose behind Rove’s remark? The hypothesis is that it was calculated, canny, and well-thought-out, with consequences foreseen and prepared-for. But this is to give too much credit to a man whose effect on the party, in unmooring it from conservative principle in so many ways, has been a long-term negative. If we accept the President’s public actions as indicative of Karl Rove’s own convictions, then the latter has tenuous, at best situational claim to the conservative mantle; certainly not where wartime is concerned. He is a smart man, and even a political genius. But this does not impart those qualities to all he does. In this case, we can call his action what it was: the demagoguery of mediocrity.
And just a reminder, here are just two of the traitorous liberals/Democrats Rove smeared.
So there it is. Liberals deliberately hope to put our troops in greater danger, according to Rove. In other words, Liberals=Traitors.
Anyone who has liberal friends and family members ought to know exactly how rotten and despicable and indefensible that statement is.
Yes, Karl Rove is an ass. But you didn’t need me to tell you that.
This liberal wasn’t calling for therapy. This liberal was calling for bombs.
And there are many, many more.
Mike S
In this group, I count my wife, a liberal and a Democrat both, and a 9/11 refugee from downtown Manhattan to boot; along with many friends.
This is where Rove’s comments ran into trouble. Just as Dean’s have especially his comment that he hates all Republicans bothered me.
It’s something I pointed out yesterday. We all have friends and family that are in the opposing party. We don’t think those people hate America or it’s people. And we don’t hate them for being in the opposing party. It’s time to stop acting as if those people are an abberation to their parties and acknowlege that it’s far more likely that they are representative of them.
Geek, Esq.
Please tell me that isn’t Andrew “The decadent Left in its enclaves on the coasts is not dead – and may well mount
what amounts to a fifth column” Sullivan pooh-poohing such rhetoric.
I think this shows that liberals really need to reclaim the word “liberal” from conservatives.
John Cole
I would argue there is a PROFOUND difference between the decadent left and liberals.
And I have to admit, in the past, I have had vicous and nasty things to say about liberals. So I am just as complicit in creating this hive mind mentality.
The difference is, though- I am trying to get my shit together, I realize I was being unfair, and I am not one of the most powerful men in politics.
Mike S
John
I don’t think anyone is blameless in this. We have all engages in some of this rhetoric. It’s time that we all grew up.
Compuglobalhypermeganet
Don’t like what Rove has to say? Don’t vote for him.
Jimmy Jazz
If I wanted to give “aid and comfort to the enemy” and “cause harm to the troops” I’d probably:
-Send as few troops as possible to rollup the terrorists that actually attacked us on 9/11, and outsource most of the fighting to Pakistan, who created the Taliban and shelter the biggest nuclear proliferator in history.
-Use the excuse of 9/11 to conduct an invasion of a country that posed no immediate threat to either the US or even its neighbors, and grossly misrepresent the threat this country posed.
-Once the invasion was complete, assign your troops to protect the oil facilities and let looters destroy the already fragile infrastructure of the country.
-Allow graft and corruption to prevent the rebuilding of that infrastructure, throw money at your campaign contributors while freezing out average Iraqis from the process.
-Insult your traditional allies.
-Divide your population for electoral gain at the expense of unity and trust.
-Throw around lots of hypocritical rhetoric about freedom and democracy while still supporting repressive regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan and elsewhere.
-Never criticize Israel no matter how repressive their policies became.
-Refuse to negotiate in good faith with Iran in hopes we can back into a military solution.
-Appoint a conservative Christian general to head up the military wing of the GWOT, and let him make statments like “My God was bigger than their God” and how he saw the face of the Devil appear in the skies of a predominately Muslim country.
-Abuse prisoners and refuse to extend them the legal protections that we’ve adhered to throughout our history.
But that’s just me.
Jeff
Wow, if i counted correctly, that’s 15 political posts since yesterday at 2:20pm when you said you were sick of politics.
The fifth season of Buffy couldn’t have been that good if you still found time to do all that.
Regardless, the thing about all this politcal vitriol is, while in a lot of cases it’s a shame that more people don’t pay attention, it’s probably just as well that most people either aren’t paying attention to or simply don’t care about this.
Last night at happy hour–and, living in Center City Philly, almost everyone I hang out with and come in contact with is a Democrat–after several Stoli and tonics, I decided to randomly go up to people at the bar I was at and ask them what they though of Karl Rove’s comments.
Most people had no idea what i was talking about. (Well, either that or they were just ignoring the annoying drunk guy asking them stupid questions.)
p.lukasiak
just use “moonbat” every time you want to say something bad about liberals, and “wingnut” every time you want to trash conservatives, and everything will work out….
Geek, Esq.
There is a gigantic difference between liberals and Cretino-leftists like Chomsky, Moore et al.
The problem is that Democrats and liberals have been such pansies that they have expended about 100000% percent more effort into denying that they’re liberals than they have at defending the core principles of liberalism..
R
“Don’t like what Rove has to say? Don’t vote for him.”
Right now, our tax money pays his salary. I want that salary ended. Now. Turd Blossom isn’t speaking as a private citizen, but as a paid government official. Huge – and very significant – difference.
CalDevil
Does anyone remember Jarvis or Totten touting the MoveOn “Peace” Petition, urging “moderation and restraint” against the terrorists who killed nearly 3,000 Americans and would kill many more if given the opportunity?
Anyone?
No? I don’t either.
Obviously then, they weren’t the liberals that Rove was referring to.
Geek, Esq.
Rove didn’t say “some liberals.” He said “the liberals.” Trade “Jews” or “blacks” or “Arabs” for “liberals” and one gets the sense of the broad-based smear going on.
Geek, Esq.
To put it another way:
“The conservatives’ reaction to 911 was not to blame the Islamists and terrorists, but rather to blame it on abortionists and homosexuals.”
Then the person would cite Falwell & Roberton.
Fair comment or bald-faced lie?
Jeff
“Fair comment or bald-faced lie”
Somewhere in between.
Geek, Esq.
You see, I’m really, really liberal, and that statement strikes me as a bold-faced lie.
Jeff
It is, but i thought you were putting it in the Rovian context of just saying “liberals” rather than “some liberals”.
RW
Of course, doing that could result in Howard Dean hating blacks or thinking that a lot of Jews have never worked a day in their lives or arabs who are evil.
Fun game. Especially when one considers that he’d have a cadre of followers who would then say “but, he’s right”. :)
Sojourner
We don’t pay Howard Dean’s salary. We do pay Karl Rove’s. As was pointed out, he’s a government official. We should not have to pay that sleazoid’s salary. But then there are so many in this administration whose salaries I don’t care to pay for.
But I have to admit I do enjoy the desperation behind Rove’s words.
Geek, Esq.
Of course, not one prominent Republican elected official is going to criticize Rove’s remarks. Unlike the long line of Dems who were ready to throw Dean overboard.
The sad lesson for the Dems to learn is that individual conscience and principle are much less important than party discipline.
CalDevil
Obviously Geek is correct. The use of the plural always implies all. That’s why today’s LA Times must be so heartening to Geek. It’s headline about Iraq says, “Republicans Voice Their Doubts” . Of course since it doesn’t say “a few” or “some”, in Geek’s logic, it must mean that every single Republican voices doubts on Iraq. Hmm, I must not have gotten the memo.
Also, today’s Boston Globe says ALL troops (using Geek logic) question the support they’re receiving. It’s right there in the headline: “US general says troops question support” (www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/24/us_general_says_troops_question_support/). Note that the headline doesn’t use a qualifier like “some”. In Geek’s logic, that must mean all.
Don’t even get me started on the fact that according to WSJ today (and of course, Geek’s logic), every minor child in the world has been “solicited for sex” in Yahoo’s recently shuttered chat rooms (“Yahoo Shuts Many Chat Rooms
As Minors Are Solicited for Sex”).
Oh, by the way, on a more serious note, I’m sure that Rove did not mean all persons of a liberal bent in his remarks, but maybe he just meant the 500,000 who were claimed by their supporters to have signed the MoveOn “peace” petition in the first 2 weeks after September 11. You remember, the one that called for “moderation and restraint”. Or perhaps he meant the thousands more who sported “Not In My Name” stickers and attended various events to protest the war in Afghanistan.
One thing’s for certain, Rove baited the hook and the fish have been bitin’ ever since.
Sojourner
Rove can bait all he once but his boy is in a downward spiral. Sure makes this liberal happy! And the number of “liberals” is only going to go up as people decide they don’t care to feed their children to the Bush war machine.
Poor Karl. He’s lost his ability to frighten the American people so all that’s left is trying to further divide the country. Just another sign of the poor leadership of this administration.
Jim Allen
This is short, so I hope I’m not crossing any lines by pasting it in its entiretly. This was a comment from Oliver Wills on his blog today:
“1380
What
p.lukasiak
There’s the difference between conservatives and liberals. Liberals get results.
but, you don’t understand. Taking out a bunch of religious nutcases hiding in caves is far more difficult than defeating the combined military organizations of the Third Reich and the Yellow Peril. The Krauts and Japs only had massive armies, navies, and air forces, and millions of soldiers willing to give their lives for their countries. The terrorist had a much more — specifically, a big bank balance, on their side….
Darrell
Comparison of John Cole’s comments:
Karl Rove “smeared all liberals”
while OTOH, Dick Durbin’s comparison of our treatement of military prisoners (based on an unverified FBI report) with the Nazis, Pol Pot, and Stalin. That comparison was described by Mr. Cole as merely “a dumb thing to say” but “reasonable and responsible”. What? No smears coming from Sen Durbin?
Don’t you see? Karl Rove = smear artist, while far worse comments/comparisons from Senate leader Durbin were reasonable and responsible..
HH
“There is a gigantic difference between liberals and Cretino-leftists like Chomsky, Moore et al.”
They certainly said such a thing during the last election but they certainly did another (“Go see F9/11 and tell all your friends!”). Jarvis and Sullivan, et al., those who held their nose when they supported Kerry (and Totten who didn’t even vote for Kerry), need to calm down. They are no one’s definition of a mainstream liberal these days, for better or worse.
RW
Two simple solutions: win elections and choose who you want or eliminate our politcal system and institute another form (oligarchy, monarchy, communist, etc.)
Of course, that Dean wanted to be a governmental official and failed at the task (again with the losing of the elections bit) is akin to comparing apples to dumptrucks, but whatever makes one sleep better at night (such as charging that anyone who deliver a thump is “desperate”), I suppose.
Geek, Esq.
CalDevil:
The use of the prefix “the” indicates an intent to make a blanket generalization covering an entire group. For instance, “The Jews control the media.” Or, “The Muslims want to kill us all.”
By the way, a recent survey was taken in a country asking who provoked the Iraq war–Bush or Hussein?
Results:
Bush provoked the war: 49%
Saddam provoked the war: 44%
Guess which country.
ppgaz
I know which country, but it was Saddam.
When we bombed Bagdad and he didn’t come running out of the palace to surrender, that did it for me. Clearly, he was to blame.
Sojourner
RW: It matters a great deal who pays the salary. Rove is a government employee who accepts money from the very people he chooses to trash.
And the rest of your logic epitomizes the problem with this country. Elected officials represent EVERYBODY, not just the ones who voted for them. Except for the current administration who has chosen to give almost half of us the finger. What a moron.
JPS
Jim Allen, p. lukasiak:
“There’s the difference between conservatives and liberals. Liberals get results.”
Yeah! Like the way they decisively put down the al Qaeda threat after the 1993 WTC bombings, the Saudi barracks bombings, the embassy bombings, and the attack on the USS Cole. They sure were on the case.
Liberals, in this day and age, kick the problem down the road to their successor, smugly proclaim how much better they would have handled it.
Sorry. Some liberals, not all. Since you were so careful not to insult all conservatives, I should really return the courtesy.
And incidentally, all the reasons Bush gave for going to war in Iraq were given, more eloquently, by Bill Clinton. The official policy of the U.S. government calling for regime change in Iraq was signed into law in 1998. But Clinton never intended to follow through–and people like you damn well knew it–so he gets a pass.
SeesThroughIt
I know which country, but it was Saddam.
When we bombed Bagdad and he didn’t come running out of the palace to surrender, that did it for me. Clearly, he was to blame.
Also, when he refused to give up those WMDs he didn’t have…c’mon. That’s the same as bombing America. So of course Saddam started it.
CalDevil: The primary problem with your attempt to twist Geek, Esq’s logic is that you’re merely quoting headlines. The actual articles go on to explain in further detail precisely who is doing what–in other words, the LA Times article in its entirety parses which Republicans voiced doubts about the war. The entirety of Karl Rove’s speech parses nothing. He just says “liberals.” Blanket statement, no further clarification. You can infer various meanings all you want, but Karl Rove said “liberals want to hurt our troops.” That’s it. End of story.
JG
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/06/who-said-that.html
“Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
-Hermann Goering 4/18/46, when the gig was up
Sorry to go Goodwins Law on ya.
Jeff Maier
Sees,
Even the comment “liberals want to hurt our troops” is scandalous on its own merits. Name any group of liberals (and not one or two isolated fringe characters) that wants to “hurt” the troops. Ideally, they want to bring them home safely.
It was divisive, inflammatory and standard Rovian wedge-baiting fair. To try to give it veneer of intent beyond that is intellectual dishonesty. Period.
RW
Linda Tripp would probably love that line.
As we all know, only Republicans trash. Democrats would never single SOUTHERN STRATEGY out any RELIGOUS RIGHT specific group RICH of people HALLIBURTON who pay WEALTHY their ENRON salaries and KENNY BOY trash them.
Poly Sci 099: no they don’t. They represent the people of their district/state. Robert Byrd doesn’t represent me, he is officially sent by the constituents of the state of Massachusetts to represent them. One would hope that he keeps the interest of the entire nation in mind, but recalling the Robert Byrd library, the Robert Byrd bridge, the Robert Byrd park, etc., it’s apparent that such a notion is wishful thinking. Only one elected official represents everybody: George W. Bush (two if one considers Cheney).
With that in mind and for the uninformed: Karl Rove is not an elected official.
RW
Should say “West Virginia” above.
stickler
RW:
Poly Sci 099: no they don’t. They represent the people of their district/state.
Karl Rove is Deputy Chief of Staff, I believe, in the Executive Branch. Senators represent states; Congressmen represent Congressional districts.
THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH REPRESENTS THE WHOLE DAMNED COUNTRY. If you’d actually taken Poli Sci 101, you might have run across that fascinating little tidbit. Does this help you to understand why Rove’s disgusting remark angers people?
Sojourner
RW:
Which Democratic PRESIDENT trashed these people or allowed somebody on his immediate payroll to do so?
Dran
Most liberals were all about Afghanistan. That would have been great place to really set down some democratic roots or at least show the world you really give a damn. After a while, even some conservatives catch on that this administration doesn’t mean what it says. Most of the rest of the world figured that out a few years ago.
When you toss in the bumper poppy crop, looks like Afghanistan will turn out worse than Iraq. Though I guess that is somewhat open for discussion. Which one were they the most inept at prosecuting? I mean planning and finishing the job. I understand the Taliban is having trials out in the countryside. We didn’t finish that job.
Point is…
Intentionally deceiving the nation into a war might not be so bad if they weren’t so inept at prosecuting it. If they are anything, these folks are inept. They screwed up in both countries. Only koolaiders still rationalize the poor planning and think things are going good. Thank the Lord for our military, they are making the best out of having very poor leadership. They are adapting to do their best to do what amounts to covering Bush’s ass for his very poor leadership and planning. (now that is consistent – plenty of that ass covering on the Bush resume)
It’s one thing to walk around puffing your chest out like you are doing some good for the world – when in fact you have no idea what you are doing – but to continue put forward the fraud that nothing is wrong and all is well is sickening to watch.
Does anyone believe a word they say? What nation in its right mind would ever trust the word of our nation again? Sadly. many conservatives believe that is a good thing.
They’re ‘tough’ guys.
RW
Stickler,
Read slowly: Elected officials represent EVERYBODY, not just the ones who voted for them.
Poly Sci 099: no they don’t.
See the word “elected”? Now, got any other smartass comments?
RW
Oh my lord. You have got to be kidding me. Let me guess, Linda Tripp wasn’t trashed. Billy Dale wasn’t trashed. Kathleen Wiley wasn’t trashed.
You people really do live in an alternate reality. Good lord, first the absolute ignorance over elected officials and whom they represent and then the presumption that Democratic administrations haven’t trashed people.
I don’t have time for such tripe.
John Cole
PPGAZ and JPS- Play nice. Certain comments have been disappeared.
PPGAZ- email me. And please stop putting profanities in as a fake email address- I don’t want to attract pr0n sites and spammers.
Sojourner
You’re putting more than 1/3 of the American people in the same category as Linda Tripp??? Sorry, babe, but we are not at all like Linda Tripp.
W doesn’t even know who I am yet he allows his goons to trash me and people like me, just because we don’t buy his lies. Over 1/3 of the ENTIRE freaking country!!!
What alternate reality are YOU living in?
ppgaz
John, my email address is affixed to this post. I do this whenever someone asks to contact me.
Sorry, I was not aware that there was a risk associated with the faux addresses. Glad to keep them sanitary. I generally go for “funny” unless somebody really pisses me off.
Anyway, here’s the addy, I look forward to your stern rebukes and or my paychecks ;-)
Sojourner
Definition of elected:
To select by vote for an office or for membership.
To pick out; select: elect an art course.
To decide, especially by preference: elected to take the summer off.
To select by divine will for salvation. Used of God.
Okay, I’ll bite. Which part contradicts our claim that elected representatives are expected to represent all of their constituents?
Nash
Wow, that’s some pull there, being able to send another state’s senator for them. I live in Ohio, could I have a say on Santorum?
Bob
Blame must be shifted away from the Death Star. Rove must deflect criticism and the best defense is a good offense.
I wonder if this group of demagogues, hacks and religious zealots surrounding Bush were really this incompetent, or if they intended to wreck Iraq and the U.S., or what.
There was always a kind of infantile embrace of fantasy by these people.
By the way, Rove’s hate speech would fit it well in NAZI GERMANY. I hope that last sentence doesn’t hurt my chances in the next Senate race.
Bob
Or maybe Rove is channelling Mussolini, who said:
“Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary…does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal.”
“Fascism now throws the noxious theories of so-called Liberalism upon the rubbish heap. When a group or a party is in power, it is its duty to fortify and defend itself against all.”
Flint
I just listened to Hardball and Countdown… good God almighty the frickin’ media just don’t get it.
They want to have the wives of 9/11 people come on and discuss Roves comments about the liberal response to the attacks.
What about the liberals who did respond and enisted in the armed services, honorably going to Afghanistan to hunt down Osama Bin Laden?
Can anyone tell me what the appropriate response should have been for a liberal Florida man, whose liberal sons signed up and went to fight in Afghanistan, only to have them sent to Iraq… where they both were killed would be to Karl Rove?
Here is a link for the Randi Rhodes show where KC was a caller, you’ll find it under the clip section tag:
http://www.therandirhodesshow.co…hodes/ index.php
If you can tell me, after listening to that father, who had to bury his two sons, what is the appropriate response to Rove… I’d really like to hear.
This says nothing about the other “liberal” families who have sons and daughters in harms way in Iraq right now.
Does anyone out there really believe that the military is all Republicans? The chicken hawks right now drive miles out of their way to avoid recruiters offices.
What Karl Rove did was to spit in the face of the father of those two dead soldiers and on their graves.
RW
Read slower than stickler needed to.
Really slow.
Scroll up and reread the exact quote as typed by…oh, yeah, YOU: Remember, slowly: “Elected officials represent EVERYBODY, not just the ones who voted for them.”
Suddenly “everybody” has now morphed into “all of their constituents”, which unsuprisingly is the correction that I put forward.
And with that, the camel’s back is broken. Stupidity is tough enough to handle but engaging with outright dishonesty isn’t worth anyone’s time (and something I could’ve been doing all along with Kimmitt had my life been so devoid of value that I partake of such nonsense). Enjoyed the site while it lasted, but rock bottom has now been reached.
A damn shame.
Sojourner
I used the phrase “Everybody” in reference to Karl Rove. Presumably even you understand that the president does, in fact, hold a national office which might lead to the thought that he is supposed to represent EVERYBODY. Duh.
Bye, bye RW. Your lack of substantive contribution won’t be missed.
Kimmitt
Man, you know you’re doing something right when RW says he won’t talk to you anymore.
dylan
RW
Even us fools get it, its all about elections.
You want your wishes enacted, get your guy elected.
You want your representative voice heard, get your guy elected.
You want to stop being pussies, then get your guy elected.
We get it. We can’t elect anyone. Our election mojo is depleted. Please allow us to drink a sip from the winner’s cup with you.
As far as your harebrained “protection” of Rove, Answer this: Is Rove, an employee of the POTUS, a deputy on his staff and lifetime consultant to him; accountable for his words. Its called “conduct befitting of the office” and it was a pretty often shouted concept from 1992-2000. So call it what it is..mud.. of the slinging variety and quit knee-jerking for your boys.
PS.. quit teasing us and telling us your leaving the building
PPS.. Jim Crow/Democrat states alert… calling someone “devoid of value”, is not principled or honest, but it is very New Age conservative. It is a road that RW would best choose to avoid……