Tom Maguire, in a defense of Rove, writes:
OK. First, let me say that they don’t pay me quite enough to wade into this – even though Karl was speaking to a partisan audience, he had to know this would make news, and he might have opted for a more temperate tone.
Second, let me say that they don’t need to pay me – I live for this nonsense, so let’s bring it on!
Let’s start with John Cole, the Contrary Conservative, who is outraged. Mr. Cole reminds us that on Sept. 14, 2001, Congress passed the Use of Force resolution by votes of 420-1 and 98-0, with no mention of the word “therapy”.
Good point. Let me remind Mr. Cole that last Palm Sunday, Congress passed the Terry Schivao Relief Act with the unanimous consent of the Senate. Does he consider the two parties to have been equally enthusiastic in her defense, and equally responsible for the subsequent turns of event? Or, is it possible that one of the parties went along for the ride, since they had not had time to do any polling or focus-grouping?
So much to respond to in so little time, so I will just use bullets.
– I don’t know how ‘conservative’ I am anymore, at least not by the current definition of ‘conservative.’ If ‘conservative’ means what I have seen over the past few years, then I never really was a ‘conservative’ and was laboring under a false label.
– I am not outraged, I am disgusted. There is a difference, and I do understand why liberals are outraged.
– I need no reminder of the Palm Sunday farce. It is the one event that has led to this several month breaking of the camel’s back.
– Is Tom suggesting that the Republicans only passed the Schiavo legislation because they had done the polling and thought it would help them politically? And that maybe the Democrats didn’t oppose because they knew the Rove led GOP would then spend the next three months calling those who felt it was inappropriate for Congress to insert itself in this matter as adherents to the “Culture of Death.” In other words, Republican support was because of a craven political calculation, and the Democratic support was out of cowardice?
– Is Tom suggesting that the September 14th Joint Resolution of force was just a political gesture by Republicans?
And just for the record- Republicans have spent years painting liberal as a dirty word and all Democrats as liberal. Tom’s later attempts to claim Rove was only talking about liberals and not, necessarily, Democrats, is absurd. I would also submit that it is quite possible to hate MoveOn, George Soros, and Michael Moore, and still think that Rove’s remarks were inappropriate. I have managed to do so…
RW
Love ya, John, but he’s got you by the short hairs on all counts.
Stormy 70
True, Rove is screaming “Don’t throw me into the briar patch.” Now everybody is discussing the liberal track record on terrorism, and it is not looking too great.
p.lukasiak
what disturbs me far less than Rove’s words is that, unlike other recent rhetoric controversies, Rove’s smear was neither extemporaneous nor unintentional. Rove engaged in deliberate and premeditated provocation designed specifically to further poison the well of public discourse, at a time when national unity is critical.
Because Rove is the political “brain” of the White House, it impossible not to conclude that the current rancor in Washington is, in fact, being directed and encouraged by the White House. It is clear that this White House is unconcerned with national unity — and believes that it can achieve its legislative and policy goals by creating the smallest possible majorities of “true believers”, Bush syncophants, and those who can be bullied and intimidated into voting the “right” way. Everything is about confrontation for the White House, and it doesn’t matter if the rules and traditions of the House and Senate have to be trashed — only total victory is acceptable.
Perhaps most shocking is that Rove has clearly stepped over the line, yet so far the GOP establishment is backing him 100%.
And most frightening of all is the prospect that Rove’s remarks were not the result of Machiavellian calculation — but reflect his true feelings about the opposition to Bush’s misguided policies. This is someone who speaks all the time to George W. Bush — and if Rove believes this crap, Bush does too—which means that the White House is occupied by a madman.
Sojourner
Nobody should be surprised by Rove’s attack. Bush’s numbers are falling and his policies have lost the support of the American people. The only way Bush has been able to prevail in the past is by either scaring the American people (remember all those heightened threat levels every time something went sour) or by dividing the nation against each other. This is simply another example of the latter.
What a pathetic example of failed leadership.
Stormy 70
Bush’s numbers are falling, but how much is it coming from people to his right? They don’t see Bush pushing back when he is smeared by the Democrats, or fighting to get his judges confirmed. Also, alot of people want Bush to fight a tougher war against insurgents in Iraq, not be as careful as they are being now. The base is a little restless right now, because they want Bush to come out swinging against the Democrats. Plus, it is summer.
metalgrid
Oh, I can be as unreliably speculative as Stormy! The only reason Bush is in power is because of the swing voters who didn’t want to change a president in the middle of a war. Face it, the base would vote republican anyhow. The worst they can do is stay at home – it’s not like they’re going to suddenly vote Dem or Lib. Now the Indies, can and will switch their votes when they get hit with their next bout of ADD. Pandering to the base isn’t going to help very much unless it’s just before an election time – which is ’06.
RW
metalgrid,
You may be right. Many people probably didn’t want to change the Prez during a time of war. Of course, that doesn’t address the continuing Dem losses in the house & senate during both ’02 and ’04.
Especially Tom Daschle, who supported the war.
Nash
That’s what Smeagol says. Any word from Gollum?
Actually, in all seriousness, I think there’s a point to be made there. Those people who have “managed to do so” have gone through the hard slog of looking at individual events and people as, well, individual. It’s less mentally and emotionally taxing to lump everything and everyone together–and the shorthand sure gets convenient in a debate when your Venn diagram has only 2 sets and those two circles don’t come anywhere close to each other. I’d suggest the left and right sides of the dial are equally guilty of this.
Mike Jones
Wait. The liberal record on terrorism is not good? May I remind Stormy that after the first WTC bombing we captured, tried, and sentenced most of the responsible parties? And somehow, we managed to do it without killing 1800 American soldiers (and counting) or tends of thousands of civilians.
I mean, that may not look so good compared to how quickly Bush captured bin Laden and put the Taliban out of business…what? You mean we didn’t? We haven’t? No, no, that can’t be right….
Darrell
May I remind Stormy that after the first WTC bombing we captured, tried, and sentenced most of the responsible parties? And somehow, we managed to do it without killing 1800 American soldiers (and counting) or tends of thousands of civilians.
There you have it, the left’s approach to dealing with terrorism is to treat it as a law enforcement matter rather than a war taking the fight to the terrorists. The left cannot be trusted to defend this country and that comment sums up why
Kimmitt
Now THAT was Orwellian.
Nash
Getting a little slow there, Darrell. That took you 6 whole minutes to get the handbook open and whip out the law enforcement talking point. Most of us can do that one much quicker, and without looking it up.
JG
‘There you have it, the left’s approach to dealing with terrorism is to treat it as a law enforcement matter rather than a war taking the fight to the terrorists. The left cannot be trusted to defend this country and that comment sums up why’
Who would we have gone to war with in ’93? Different situation. There are hawks on both sides. If Gore had won we still would’ve taken down Afghanistan, we just wouldn’t have decided to use the current environment as an excuse to invade the country we were planning to invade since Bush won the nomination.
I don’t understand the hatred for Michael Moore. If he’s such an idiot why don’t people just ignore him. I’ve never seen any of his movies and probably a total of 2 minutes of my life has been spent listening to his voice. Hes a complete non entity to me.
Nash
Picture him as Ann Coulter in drag and without the Adam’s apple.
That’ll clear it up for you.
Andrei
“Also, alot of people want Bush to fight a tougher war against insurgents in Iraq, not be as careful as they are being now. ”
There you go. I guess the difference between whatever you call yourself and whatever I call myself is that you seem see the current administration as being “careful” and I think they’re just incompetent.
I mean… this administration bombed the living fuck out of the country to claim the capitol in less than a month. They did it with high tech weaponry to keep as few troops out of the fight as they could. But they somehow forgot the country has some 24 million people and like most populations, will need a security force to maintain law and order. So they sent in 130,000 troops to secure 24 million people, when the troops can’t speak the language and know very little about the culture or history there. And to add insult to injury, this administration did all of this to a country that wasn’t even a fucking threat to us in the terror front while still searching for Bin Laden whom is rarely in the news these days. Yeah, the intel was “misinterpreted.”
But you think this administration is simply being careful?
Careful? I mean really… repeat it one more time so I can hear you…. You think they are being CAREFUL?!
I would laugh so hard if it weren’t so tragic.
Tim F
I knew a number of online conservatives who said we should nuke Fallujah. Apparently there was some constituency for that at one time.
Other than the free use of nuclear bombs it’s not clear to me how we can be less ‘careful’ with the insurgency. I’m sure somebody will enlighten me.
RW
Most, indeed, since one of them fled to…you guessed it, Iraq.
Funny how you never see that mentioned, eh?
Stormy 70
I like the way we are being careful with waging the war among a large civilian population, and I am not into indiscriminate bombing that has no strategic value. However, I read alot of people to my right who think we are being too careful, and think Bush is being too gentle. I am just pointing out that this sort of thinking may affect the poll numbers. Personally, I don’t really look at the polls, since they are often wrong. Whether I agree with the poll’s finding or not, they are just not too reliable. I do respect the Rasmussen polls, however.
Kimmitt
Most, indeed, since one of them fled to…you guessed it, Iraq.
Yeah, Saddam took care of the guy to piss us off. Then he had some chats with the Al Qaeda folks that didn’t go anywhere. What, if anything, is your point?
Andrei
“I like the way we are being careful with waging the war among a large civilian population, and I am not into indiscriminate bombing that has no strategic value.”
Wait… I thought the war was over. Mission accomplished?
Skip that… how can you know how careful our engagement of this war is if we don’t know the death toll of Iraqi citizens because our own government won’t publish or attempt to collect the numbers? Some research indicates the death toll of innocent civilians is in the 30,000 range, some think it’s closer to the 150,000 or higher.
Just what exactly is careful? How many inncocent people — including children — have to die before the war is no longer careful? In my book, neither number is very careful at all considering that the large majority of that number came *after* Baghdad fell.
“Personally, I don’t really look at the polls, since they are often wrong. Whether I agree with the poll’s finding or not, they are just not too reliable. I do respect the Rasmussen polls, however.”
Wow. Way to completely and openly contradict yourself in public.
Sojourner
“Bush’s numbers are falling, but how much is it coming from people to his right?”
The folks on the right are about the only ones still supporting him.
Bush smeared by Dems? That’s pretty funny. Perhaps the reason his numbers are dropping is because the American public don’t like his policies. His Social Security plan was certainly a big hit. And Iraq has been such a success.
Tougher with the insurgants? A more likely reason is the little people that Bush disdains are tired of feeding their children to his war machine.
It’s not the base who are restless. It’s all those moderates who are slowly beginning to realize just how suckered they got by this administration. It’s going to get really ugly as that realization sinks in.
Rick
And just for the record- Republicans have spent years painting liberal as a dirty word and all Democrats as liberal.
John,
And just for the record, this is politics. As in the years of Democrats spending years painting conservatives as compassionless, and all Republicans as conservatives/reactionaries.
I guess youngsters like you just have no memories of modern political history, as opposed to “recent;” that being just what you can remember.
All you witnessed is the Republicans winning. Well, those were come from behind victories.
Cordially…
ppgaz
There’s a difference, Rick. Republicans are reactionaries.
Democrats are not traitors.
I think you see the subtle point.
Stormy 70
Politics have always been dirty, it is just the way the cookie crumbles. LBJ, anyone? One county in Texas voted Republican in his election, and he proceeded to close the military base there. That’s the LBJ way. I used to live in that county, Republican all my life, like my father before me. Oops, started to channel Return of the Jedi, there.
Brad R.
That’s the LBJ way.
No, that’s the Texas way in general.
Sojourner
Yes, politics has always been dirty but this is the first time I can remember that the president and his cronies are encouraging the American people to attack each other. It’s a shame that they are do desperate to hold onto power that they’ll weaken the country to accomplish that. How ironic that Bush wants to weaken the country from the inside while claiming to fight all external threats.
Darrell
Yes, politics has always been dirty but this is the first time I can remember that the president and his cronies are encouraging the American people to attack each other
Yeah Soj, that’s exactly Bush and his cronies are doing, encouraging the American people to attack each other, calling Dems Nazi brownshirts while comparing them to Pol Pot.. oh wait
JG
‘I don’t understand the hatred for Michael Moore.
Picture him as Ann Coulter in drag and without the Adam’s apple.
That’ll clear it up for you.’
I don’t listen to Ann Coulter either.
nyrev
Hey, does anyone remember New York? You know, that place from all the 9/11 footage? That place that voted overwhelmingly Democratic in the last election?
Apparently, after 9/11 all us New Yorkers just wanted to give Osama and the terrorists a big hug and a cookie.
Thanks for the enlightenment, Mr. Rove.
Sojourner
Darrell:
Have you ever considered raising your standards? It’s okay as long as it’s not as bad as the Nazis? How pathetic is that?
Nancy
The NATION was attacked on September 11th, that includes liberals. The Nation responded, Americans were united.
Where are we now? Using 911 as “red meat” for the base??
Playing politics with 911, have the Republicans gone mad?? Don’t they remember?
This is about what Rove said, lets not change the subject(Durbin) or use semantics(liberal/democrat) here. We all know what Mr. Rove wanted to imply.
Show me ONE leader in the Democratic Party that doesn’t want to fight terrorism and protect our county.
The only people I remember excusing the terrorists over 911 were these fine upstanding Americans.
JERRY FALWELL:…I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way–all of them who have tried to secularize America–I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.”….
PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur….
Stormy 70 upthread
I’ve seen the RNC website, it features move-on, Moore, and Soros. These people/organizations don’t represent the Democratic party.
Rove is the White House Deputy Chief of Staff, he represents the executive branch of the American Government.
The Democratic track record on terrorism:
The leaders of the party at the 2004 convention and immediately after the attacks.
Kerry’s acceptance speech
Let there be no mistake: I will never hesitate to use force when it is required. Any attack will be met with a swift and certain response. I will never give any nation or international institution a veto over our national security. And I will build a stronger American military.
Senator Barack Obama, Keynote speech DNC
Now let me be clear. We have real enemies in the world. These enemies must be found. They must be pursued and they must be defeated.
“We want enemies and the whole world and all of our citizens to know that America speaks tonight with one voice,” House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt, D-Mo., said Thursday, giving up a chance to have Democrats make their own televised response to the president’s address. Instead, Senate leaders from both parties were making a statement together. [AP, 9/20/01]
Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., declared: “We, Republicans and Democrats, House and Senate, stand strongly united behind the president and will work together to ensure that the full resources of the government are brought to bear in these efforts.” [Cox News Services, 9/11/01]
Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle (D-S.D.) said on Meet the Press the war in Afghanistan will not be over until bin Laden is apprehended. “The president again has said what most of us believe, that it will not be complete until we have found him, until we can account for him,” Daschle said. “I think we’ve got to find ways with which to aggressively continue to pursue this effort beyond that which we’ve done
Thomas Kalinowski
John, does this mean you’ve been a liberal all along and didn’t know it?
Congrats, and welcome to our little group. You’ll be receiving your “I heart the terrorists” button and CPUSA membership card in the mail shortly.
Death to Amerika!
Death to freedom!
Legalize marijuana!
Pounder
I think what is unfortunate in all of this, is that it didnt have ot be like this.
I am tempered with great disappointment.
After the horrific attacks of 9/11 Bush did have a united country, conservative and liberal. the afghan war was widely supported – but before it was finished, something terrible happened, that frankly i am still at a loss to explain.
We invaded Iraq, on increasingly questionable grounds.
If this had not been done, and it certainly hasnt benefited us, Bush wuold have had a huge mandate for both international cooperation not only on the GWOT but also trade, and likewise he would have had a tremendous mandate for domestic policy.
It appears to me that the Iraq war was one of the biggest political blunders in modern history and everything negative flows from that. Tragic on so many levels.
As for Rove, his recent comments are simply quite sickening i thought, and do smack of a level of desperation to try and prop up an ever increasingly stagnant agenda.
Nancy
Pounder,
Well said.
Darrell
Pounder, in point of fact, there were massive anti-war protests before and during the invasion of Afghanistan, accompanied by the lefts’ cries of “Quagmire” et al. So cut the dishonest crap that the left was on board all along. Many were not.
Regarding your comment It appears to me that the Iraq war was one of the biggest political blunders in modern history and everything negative flows from that., I’m not so sure the Iraqi people or the american people would agree with that at all, despite ‘Nancy’s’ praise of your ‘insightful’ opinion. Perhaps you might elaborate as to why the ending of this was a bad thing. I really want to hear your explanation, because I don’t want to believe that many of you leftists really are the scum that you appear to be.
Demise
Darrell- you’re a stooge and a liar.
There was no “anti-war” movement against removing the Taliban. If you’re talking about some whacko’s like the “US Marxist Alliance” or whatever well you’re way off cuz that’s not the mainstream Left in America- that’s the fringe and both sides have their “fringe”.
The Iraq Invasion will probably go down as one of the biggest blunders in US history. It’s caused the public of many countries around the world ill-will towards us and has even led to the rise in Left leaning politicians among our Allies and increasing Right leaning politicians on the side of our enemies. We’ve practically handed the Middle East to Iran in terms of influence because any true democratic government in Iraq will be hostile to the US government and friendly to the Iranians (the Sunni’s can and will, go to hell- but they will go down fighting).
With the federal debt being the cherry on the top of this shit sunday, I’d have to say I’ve never seen a worse president in my life.
Jeanne Duffy
You know what Karl Rove could have done if he “only” meant to reference MoveOn.org and Michael Moore?
He could have mentioned MoveOn.org and Michael Moore!!!!
Now wouldn’t that have been simpler than saying “liberals” (as in “most liberal Senator”, i.e. Bush’s recent opponent) when he didn’t really mean Democrats?
Pathetic disgusting lying sack of McCarthyite shit.
Darrell
Jeanne, do you often express such strong opinions over statements you have never read? Karl Rove DID in fact mention moveon.org by name, in a specific reference to a petition drive they organized and he also referenced Dick Durbin’s remarks.
Are you feeling embarrassed now? You would if you had an ounce of honor or shame
Jeanne Duffy
No, Darrell, I know he stuck it in at the end. I was referring to his actual sentence in the long paragraph where he made specific liberal/conservative comparisons.
The meaning was crystal clear. And no, fool, I’m not embarrassed! This pig spit on our sacred ground, for crass political gain. Every day I walk past the park in my town that was built to the 11 people from here who died on 9/11. You want Democrats to be embarrased by a private filmmaker and you people are not embarrassed to have this slimeball as teh Presiden’s Chief Advisor? Clearly an ounce of shame would topple you over from the sheer weight.
nyrev
What Darrell and the other defenders of Fearless Leader and his Flying Monkeys have yet to address is this:
Why does Karl Rove think that the overwhelmingly Blue states of New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland would rather have seen the Taliban cuddled than punished?
If Liberals are traitors who have forgotten the September 11, then why is it that the States where the terrorist acts occurred won’t support our glorious leader? And if the people who live within sight of Ground Zero are traitors, then what, exactly, defines a patriot?