On Hardball tonight, another hour-long session on the goals of the radical religionists in our midst, masquerading as a town forum “addressing serious issues.” Those serious issues included the Ten Commandments flap, and just about the whole gang was there- Tony Perkins, Judge Roy Moore, Rev. Richard Land, Dr. Jerry Sutton– God’s own circus, if you will.
Of course, the topic du jour was the plight of persecuted Christians. I had neither the necessary stomache nor the desire to watch the whole show, but I did, out of morbid curiousity, view for a little bit. I’m always a sucker for a train wreck, and I will probably watch Bush speak for the same reason. At any rate, two quick points:
1.) Whenever I see these guys like the folks listed above, I have a sick hope that there is an afterlife, a heaven, if you will, and it is run by secular humanists and atheists.
2.) Why is this such a big deal? I can understand why people who are not Christian might see the posting of the Ten Commandments as offensive, but I can not for the life of me understand why those who are not allowed to post the Ten Commmandments are mad. It isn’t like the court ordered the Commandments be ripped down, and placed in their stead acopy of selected quotes from the Koran, the Talmud, or, in Hollywood, a copy of Dianetics.
Why is it such a big deal?
Brad R.
This is what I asked my dad: “Why does religion need the government to promote itself?”
He didn’t have an answer.
Mike S
1.) Whenevr I see these guys like the folks listed above, I have a sick hope that there is an afterlife, a heaven, if you will, and it is run by secular humanists and atheists.
I’m guessing that many of them will be surprised when God himself comes to the gate, gets a big grin on his face, asks them if they tried to unify the world and then tells them to take the basement entrance. If there is an “Eternity’s funniest home videos” people like the ones you listed and Randall Terry and Dobson will be big winners.
KC
For them, being a victim gives them special rights. It’s the same tack pushed by the radical Left in the 70s, except updated for the conservative movement. Everything they dislike is perceived as an attack on their religion; every attack means they need to mobilize government to defend their rights. That’s why they are mad about not being able to post the Ten Commandments in the court room.
BumperStickerist
I kept wishing Matthews would drop a cage down around these mopes and say “Okay that’s enough guys.
This what real persecution looks like
– release the lions!
– cut to commercial –
“We’re back, well, some of us anyway …”
The Disenfranchised Voter
Religious monuments don’t belong on tax-payer funded property. It is that simple.
ppgaz
The question answers itself. It’s a big deal because people have made it a big deal. They’ve done so, on both sides, because it’s an emotional issue, and a useful one if one wants to divide the electorate and manipulate them.
Stormy70
Politics is fighting for what you believe in. Shock! Christians are participating in governments. Cheeky bastards.
Stormy70
No can type, ugh.
CaseyL
It’s a big deal because the people who demand it are incapable of internalizing a moral code.
The only reason they aren’t looting their neighbors’ houses, turning the streets into rivers of blood and then fornicating in the flow with the dead neighbor’s spouse, children, and dog, is because God Said Not To.
And they need to be reminded that God Said Not To. Constantly.
So they need to see the Ten Commandments every time they look around.
Because otherwise they might forget. And things could get messy.
Rex Burnett
Apparently, our nation has not digested properly the lessons of the Salem witch trails. The reason Europe is so secular is because of centuries of state sponsored terror in the service of religion. Europe finally had enough, but we are just at the beginning of our apple pie version of this madness. nuff said.
Rex Burnett
Apparently, our nation has not digested properly the lessons of the Salem witch trails. The reason Europe is so secular is because of centuries of state sponsored terror in the service of religion. Europe finally had enough, but we are just at the beginning of our apple pie version of this madness. nuff said.
Jim
The idiocy continues………..I am pulling out my hair between so many of you fools and at least 5 of those on the
SCOTUS.
it is about the constitution………..
read it….. it does not say that the Ten Commandments cannot be in government buildings….however,it does not allow the establishment of a religion by the Federal government. But as
usual those that love their chance to hammer religious people
and especially Christians never pass up their chance. I do enjoy how you change the subject and not talk about the constitution real meaning. You also ignore this court and its continual perversion of the constitution…..
‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
MC
I watched Hardball tonight and one of the things that struck me was how angry some of those folks were. I come from a pretty devout Catholic family and I can’t remember anytime I’ve seen anyone in my family or my church that…”fired up” about being Catholic like those folks were pushing Christianity like its a policy issue. They take strong political positions informed by their beliefs, but “being Catholic” isn’t a political position in itself.
One more thing. How long can you beat the horse known as the UNC-CH/Koran summer reading? If you’re going to get angry everytime you have to read something you don’t agree with, stay at home and don’t go to college.
That’s life – I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read something my boss wrote and thought – “Wow, you really got this one all wrong.” I read it, I raise my objections, and if it isn’t that important, I shut my mouth – if it is, we shake it out. Good lesson to learn at 18 – don’t take it personally and pick your battles wisely. Secondly, it’s a primary source, not someone else’s opinion about the Koran. Form your own judgment – no one is forcing an interpretation on you.
Stormy70
I think they’re mad because they have always been able to post the Ten Commandments where they wanted to, and now they are told it is unconstitutional. I agreed with both rulings, but it will be interesting to see if the issue still resonates during the midterms. I think it will. We agree that Christians are not really under attack, but they feel that way. They are going to band together and fight for their rights, just like the ACLU. This is he political process.
Certainly in places like Acedemia, some people are being harassed for their views, or told they are not allowed to pray at lunch time in the caferteria, etc. These are legitimate greivances. The Government should not interfere with any religious practices, nor should overzealous teachers. So there are groups like FIRE that defend the First Amendment rights of Christians. One must be careful that one’s dislike for a Fundamentalists’ or Evangelicals’ religion does not turn into outright discrimination. Notice I did not say bigotry, that will never be erased. People do not have a right not to be offended.
Mike
Jim,
What you do not seem to get is the first words in te Preamble to the Constitution.
We, the people….
Does the word God appear anywhere in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or any of the LEGAL documents which actually are supposed to form the basis of our law, civil society, and government? The answer is no.
Did the framers believe in God? Unquestionably yes. However, they did not put God as the basis of our law or civil society or government, no matter how much you want to believe it.
Lee
John: am i to assume that when say “radical relionists in our midst” you’re referring to the crazy muslims continually trying to kill us?
just checking….
Mike S
Looks like JM is one of those poor victimized Christians who isn’t allowed to pray the way he would like. The poor things are just “hammered” incesantly and will never be able to pray in public, instead hiding in basements through out the country using super secret passwords for admittance.
Mike S
Lee
He could be talking about Randall Terry.
Stormy70
What is it about Christians that get you guys more worked up over them, than leftists funding the terrorists in Iraq? Sheesh. So what if they feel picked on? It sounds like some of you guys on the left with your “everyone implies we’re traitors, or anti-American just because we criticize the war.”
Both groups seem to be a little sensitive to me.
John Cole
John: am i to assume that when say “radical relionists in our midst” you’re referring to the crazy muslims continually trying to kill us?
No- I was talking about Randall Terry and Dobson and his crew, and I do see a distinction between Muslim extremists and the radical religinists at home.
I want to shoot the muslim extremists who are trying to kill us. I prefer to just ridicule and heap healthy doses of scorn on our home grown louts.
dlnevins
Bingo!
Until very recently, Christianity (and spcifically, Protestant Christianity) was in fact a priviledged religion in this country. To hold a high public office, you simply had to be a Protestant, in fact if not in law. Public schools lead their students in prayers – and they were always Protestant prayers. The government openly recognized Christian holidays, but no other religious holidays were given such special consideration. The unconscious assumption behind all of this was that Americans were of course Protestant Christians.
But not all Americans ARE Protestant Christians. Over the past several decades non-Protestants have increased in both numbers and in political power, and for the first time Christianity is being treated by the government as just another religion, no more special than any other. That’s why these folks are angry. It’s never any fun giving up a position of privilege, even when it’s unearned and undeserved.
MC
Stormy – that crowd wasn’t mad about the Ten Commandments decision – maybe that’s whatever got under their skin today but there was something else at work there; that was an underlying seething. Angry people seeking political influence usually means bad public policy, violence, or both. That’s what bothers me.
I have to say, I take issue with the characterization of the political process as people banding together fighting for their rights. Unfortunately, pluralism looks good on paper, but it’s really an illusion. If a group is making noise or has any kind of real influence in a political process, you can pretty much guarantee that they aren’t particularly large or represent mainstream opinion – it’s just too darn difficult to mobilize large groups without selective benefits. Secondly, even if you accept the notion that this movement reflects a majority opinion, the idea that majority status entitles someone to rights doesn’t fly. We’ve been down this road in America before and there are just certain things that even if 100% of the population want it a certain way, it still can’t happen.
Of course, what are those things? I guess those are the battles you pick and choose…is the public display of the Ten Commandments one of those things?
Sojourner
Gee, I don’t know. But I’m sure it has nothing to do with their taking away our civil rights, dumbing down our students through stupidity like “intelligent” design, imposing their religious beliefs on the scientific process in this country to the detriment of environmental and medical research, and inserting themselves into the private lives of people who know better than they what is best for their families.
What do you think it is, Stormy?
And tell me, how many of those lefties who supposedly support terrorists have had the slightest impact on our country?
It’s really quite simple. Religious people can pray whenever they like – but that’s not enough for them. They want to force the rest of us to pray right along with them – and pray according to their religious beliefs. They want to restrict what we can do, then stand there with the mouths open shocked SHOCKED that we’re pissed off. Then they complain that we’re imposing on them. Huh? What laws are on the books that impose on their ability to be religious? Carry a copy of the ten commandments in your wallet, for pete’s sake. Pray in private, which is, after all, according to Christ, the most cherished form of prayer. And stop dumbing down this country just because you don’t like the results of scientific research. Just stay the fuck out of my life.
albedo
“What is it about Christians that get you guys more worked up over them, than leftists funding the terrorists in Iraq?”
Might I also add to Sojourner’s comment that (for me, anyway) it’s partly a matter of expecting more out of your own countrymen than supporters of islamofascism halfway around the world.
dlnevins
Perhaps because ultimately they’re more dangerous than Islamic terrorists?
Stormy, America isn’t simply a place; it’s an ideal. And an ideal can’t be destroyed by physical violence. Even if the Islamic terrorists had the firepower to nuke every city in the USA, they couldn’t destroy America (although they could render us a second-rate power and kill a great many of our citizens).
To destroy America, one has to destroy the Constitution and the rule of law – and that is something only we Americans can do to ourselves. When you listen to some of these extremist Christian groups, it’s quite plain that if they had their way, they’d happily toss our Constitution into the wastebasket. I for one think that’s worth getting a bit worked up over, just to insure they never achieve their wish.
Stormy70
I understand your points, but I don’t think they will be able to take away our rights. They are vocal, but not all-powerful. For instance, all the sound and fury of the some on the religous right still did not alter the Terry Schaivo situation. The courts ruled on it, and it happened under the rule of law. (Only illustrating a point, don’t want to discuss any Terry crap.) The same can be said for fringe groups on the left (ELF, anyone?).
Once again, I agreed with the Supreme Court rulings. The Ten Commandments are a historical artifact in the history of Law, and I think a monument to its history in shaping certain laws is appropriate. Hanging the Ten Commandments up to promote your religion is wrong in a Government building.
I disagree with that statement, it’s hyperbolic and silly.
Lee
interesting…. so it’s the “radical Christians” that are the enemies with you guys. but who sounds more crazy.. the radical Christians or half of the people posting on this site that believe the RC’s are the true enemy? the hypocracy(sp) is amazing.
albedo
“interesting…. so it’s the “radical Christians” that are the enemies with you guys. but who sounds more crazy.. the radical Christians or half of the people posting on this site that believe the RC’s are the true enemy? the hypocracy(sp) is amazing.”
Don’t see what’s hypocritical about it. Don’t agree, but don’t see any hypocrisy. Anyway, it’s two different kinds of enemies. One that hates us, pure and simple, and would like to blow us up and crash planes into our buildings. The other, that would impose their beliefs on us and impinge on our personal freedoms. The first is scarier, but the second may be ultimately as damaging to what a lot of us like about America. And the second sometimes gets around to the blowing up buildings part (see Eric Rudolph).
river
The one thing people need to remember is that our founders were not right wing Christians. In fact, some of our most important founders were Deists who saw a natural God.
It’s important not to give in to these right wing nutjobs and say ‘yeah we were founded as a Chrisitan nation, but times have changed, etc…” They way to attack their position is to point out that their view of American history is fundamentally flawed.
In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that “the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” This was a reassurance to Islam(!) written under Washington’s presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.
Thomas Jefferson said – “In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.” He also said – “Question with boldness even the existence of God.”
James Madison said – “”During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
river
MORE..
Benjamin Franklin: “. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist.”
Thomas Paine: “Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. ”
Look, I’m just trying to say, don’t let the right wing Christian nuts bully you into thinking that they have any kind of claim on our history. They don’t. Our country founded by men of reason and science.
dlnevins
I don’t think they will succeed, either – but only so long as the majority of Americans continue to reject the message they’re trying to pedal. That’s why it’s important to keep countering their arguments, and remind people there’s no actual “Christian oppression by the government” going on, merely the upholding of our nation’s founding principles.
Yes and no. Certainly fringe leftist groups have the same potential to be dangerous – but right now, they’re simply too marginalized to accomplish much. Politics is cyclical, though, and when Liberalism is again ascendent, a wise person will keep a close eye on extreme leftist groups, because they’ll be feeling emboldened and the political climate will be more conducive to the airing of their own dangerous messages.
Really? I’d remind you that the greatest threat this country has ever faced, the one which came the closest to destroying the nation, was driven not by an external threat but solely by internal tensions. I’m speaking, of course, of the Civil War. While I don’t think we’re in any danger of a repeat in the near future, it’s good to remember that increasing societal tensions aren’t necessarily harmless.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Damn, I figured my comments would be enough but I guess they were not.
Alright, anyone who thinks the first amendment only pertains to the establishment of a state religion should read this post:
I was just watching Hardball and some dumb bitch claimed there is no seperation of church and state. Both Chris Matthews and the other guest then claimed there was, so the dumb bitch said “I’ll give you 1 million dollars if you can find the words seperation of church and state in the constitution”. Of course she said this knowing that the EXACT phrase of “Seperation of Church and State” isn’t in the Constitution but what she obviously doesn’t know is that it is CLEARLY implied.
Anyone who actually READS the first amendment can see that there is a COMPLETE seperation of Church and State.
The first amendment reads…
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Notice the FIRST WORDS on this amendment. It states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” That means there shouldn’t be ANY law that respects ANY establishment of religion. Many argue that this only means that there should not be any state religion; unfortunately for them, they are wrong.
If that is what the founding fathers intended then they would have wrote “no law respecting THE establishment of A religion.” It does not say that, however, and thus clearly the word “establishment” is synonomous with the word “institution”. Therefore, the amendment means: “Congress shall make no law respecting an institution of religion”
That means, not one single law that derives from a religious institution.
Man, I really hate when ignorant fucks run their mouths and in reality have no clue what they are talking about…
the friendly grizzly
I think it is because, at bottom, their own actual beliefs in what they are espousing are so weak that they need the prop of government, with its badges and guns, to reinforce things for them.
Ben
Stormy says “I don’t think they will be able to take away our rights”… apparently you aren’t a fag like me or you would KNOW that the fundies are trying to take away rights. Stop kidding yourselves. Once they are done with gays, they will keep right on going.
arkabee
“Why is it such a big deal?”
I assume it is because they are Right/Righteous and everyone who does not agree with them must be Actively Opposing them and thus are Wrong and must be Destroyed.
I think it’s probably a 50/50 mix of actual Faith that their “Religion” is the correct one and Sheer Personal Arrogance.
The more i think about it, though, the more convinced i become that their Faith in Religion is merely personal justification/vindication for their Egotism.
A mom
For anyone who thinks the far right Christians aren’t a danger and have no influence on this Administration,go read the articles on this site:
http://www.therevealer.org
Then tell me these folks have no power or an agenda.It’s very foolish to dismiss them as a”fringe element”when it’s pretty clear what they have in mind.This isn’t about the Ten Commandments,that’s just a teeny part of a much larger problem at work.The radical right version of Christianity has been at work for at least 3 decades,this isn’t new.What is new is the larger influence they are having in voting booths,the direct access and influence to the President,and the fact that they are indeed working to change school curriculums to bible based teachings.I live in Cobb County,GA,and trust me,they are relentless.
metalgrid
I don’t really mind their effects on a state level to be totally honest. The market will take care of them. Do you honestly think the best colleges and universities are going to be taking students who were educates to think ID was science? In addition, those who reject the “A is A” principle are doomed to failure within the market. The backward states will regress and fall into economic straights.
The worry I have is at the federal level. The left has over time eroded whatever federal limits have existed. The right has provided the means by which these theocons are now in power and as a result, we have much to worry about in states that don’t home grow these morons.
The really insidious problem here is that they seem to know that the market will cut them down to size, which is why they need government to buffer the effect. With the government on their side, they can twist the effects of market forces through tariffs, taxes, redistribution, welfare, etc. If there was a greater enemy of the free-market, than the socialist left, it is these reality-removed fundamentalists.
ppgaz
Stormy, my answer to your question is this:
Stubborn, self-centered rightwing religious fundamentalists have declared war on America. Most of America does not share their view, yet they state that the feel not only compelled, but entitled, to pursue a goal that amounts to turning the constitution upside down, declaring the US to be a nation originally intended to be a christian nation, and replace the law of man — the constitution and the body of law that hangs from it — with their idea of “God’s law.” They are intolerant of opposing views, and employ rank demagoguery to browbeat opponents, claiming what amounts to divine right to literally rule — not govern, but rule — this country.
They have declared war on an independent and engaged judiciary. They have declared war on science. They have declared war on process. They have declared war on anything and everything that contradicts their narrow teachings. They have declared war on demographic groups of Americans whose views and whose lifestyles do not fit with their narrow views. They hide their bigotry and their zeal for power over other people , behind bibles and flags, phony righteousness and phony patriotism.
They have declared war on liberty. They have no respect for true liberty, or basic liberty … the right to be, to the greatest possible extent, free to live as on sees fit and the be left the hell alone. They practice deliberate doublespeak, claiming that their own liberty is being victimized by people who oppose them, when in fact, the liberty of everyone is at risk under their concept of God’s “dominion” on earth, and in particular, in this country.
They hold themselves to be morally superior to those who do not share their views, and thereby attempt to establish a moral imperative for their own agendas.
Since you asked …. these assholes, versus terrorists? I don’t think there is really much difference. Muslim fundamentalists think and say things very similar to the Dobsonites. God directs them, they say. God wants them to kill Americans. Their beliefs give them the right to do whatever is necessary to achieve their ends. That’s why it’s pretty normal to hate terrorists. It’s the same reason that I detest the fundamentalist right wing. I think they come from the same set of ego-maniacal dysfunctions that the terrorists come from. It’s all about Them, and nothing about the rest of us.
I believe that they’d gladly establish tyranny in this country, as long as it was THEIR tyranny. This country is about freedom from tyranny. Freedom from tyranny requires opposing tyrants. Dobsonites are tyrants.
Does that answer your question?
peter
Actually Mike,
7 of the 9 original framers of the constitution questioned the legitimacy of Jesus as a godhead.
put that in your pipe and smoke it.
funny how the christians have suckered us all into believing that “yeah, they were all diehard christian believers”, and this seems to be taken without question in general discourse these days.
hmmm, you should go back to what these guys actually wrote in their memoirs and such, you might be somewhat surprised by how non-believing many of the founding fathers were.
remember, these men were the product of the Renaissance, this cannot be understated, and this was a time when reason and science was dominant as the best course of theology for the advancement of man and civilization.
religion, with its wierd, superstitiuos ways, (so what has changed) was not looked upon very kindly to say the least…
bone up on your history guys, and don’t let the christians rewrite the history of the founding of your country.
0.02
P.
Jeff
“Does that answer your question?”
well, if their question was “is ppqaz a raving lunatic and an ignorant jackass” then yes, the question was answered quite well.
peter
ppqaz,
very very nice!
eloquent and passionate defense of the real freedom that the founding fathers really intended, and you are absolutely correct in equating fundamentalism of all kinds to tyranny, dead right.
one would have thought the 20th century would have put paid to the “isms”, but alas, the fight for freedom continues apace, only now it is from within our own borders.
i especially like your quote “free to live as one sees fit and be left the hell alone”
amazing how the christians have cornered the market on what god would want for his creation, but of course they don’t really read the bible do they and reflect on the contents, they simply imbibe it, so what can you expect.
anyways, i love your passion and your prose.
stay hungry
P.
Crandle Libscomb
Why?
This is production which has been in the works for 30 years. Some are just now starting noticing it. Many keep thinking there will be a waking up point that will make a difference. I believe we are decades too late.
I also believe this is part of a grand plan and that those who seriously look, will see that plan. It is working.
There is a person who said his job was to gather the religious right together to take control of our government and he has done it. He spent billions doing so and yet his efforts are invisible to…, I don’t know, maybe 99.9% of the population.
Here’s an interesting site with some information on the root to all of this.
http://cellwhitman.blogspot.com/
Once the nation sees that, then it can just begin to address the problem. If it can be. You see, thanks to his victory here, he is now has been empowered to take his “ideas” to the planet.
Gary Farber
“Why is it such a big deal?”
One issue only: obtaining government endorsement of one’s religion.
It’s not as if there’s any shortage of available religion otherwise in the U.S., or repression of it.
It’s just that simple. Only their bullshit obscures that.
Kimmitt
The weird thing about the 10 Commandments thing to me is that there are different versions of the Commandments in the different religious traditions. When you put up anything which has anything other than some stone tablets, a 1 through a 10, and some dashes, you’re not just endorsing Christianity, you’re endorsing either Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or one of (I think) two different sets of sects within Protestantism.
Hannah
First – ppgaz: right on, as usual.
One of the many things about the religious right that perplexes me is that they seem to think that those not of their beliefs have absolutely NO MORALS. Which is patently ridiculous.
As Christians, they should believe that we are all God’s children (Jesus told us so) – we are all born without sin and are created in God’s image. Just because a person does not ascribe to Christianity or any other religion does not automatically make him or her sinful or morally corrupt. Conversely, simply being Christian does not make one sin-less.
One of the other perplexing things about these people is their persecution complex despite their being clearly in charge of most everything (see theocracywatch.org). The operative word being “most” when they would like “all”. I do have to wonder if these people who are screaming about not being able to practice Christianity have heard about Christians in countries who are actually persecuted and/or put to death.
I myself am a moderate/liberal Christian, believe that everyone should be able to follow their own beliefs, God or not, and believe in the basic goodness of people, realizing that there are many who are not. And unfortunately many who are leaders of our country have let power and corruption destroy that goodness and decency.
I also believe that God gave us brains that we should use, that we in fact honor God by using our brains. I am perplexed that these people have invaded our school boards and forced their narrow literal version of the Bible onto science. The Bible is not a science textbook. It was written for and by people thousands of years ago, for their level of understanding. To outright dismiss all scientific discovery because it differs from something written so long ago, for people so long ago, is absurd.
Above all I regret that these righties have turned so many people off to Christianity and made it a joke among many, especially those on the left. Their version of Christianity could not be further from what we read in the Gospel. I, along with many other mainstream Christians, are angry, and believe me, we are speaking out.
metalgrid
Interestingly enough, I was discussing this with a friend of mine (who’s also a regular church goer) – one of those moderate religious people. His take on the whole “not allowed to practice Christianity” victimhood of these people is that the Christianity they are trying to practice is one of burning witches and heathens.
Now when you look at it from that perspective, it makes perfect sense. We’re standing between them and their pursuit of inquisitions and forcible conversion, – so it’s no surprise that they can’t practice their religion – we’re not letting them go around killing, torturing and crusading (at least our own citizenry – they can apprently do it to other nationals in our torture camps) because of this pesky little thing called a constitution.
alex
The main reason they’re so angry is because they like being angry. They pick meaningless battles and position themselves as the underdogs so they can claim persecution, then go home and feel sorry for themselves.
The crack-pipe of righteousness has powered more than one revolution, and laughing at the addicts is not always a good idea.
I don’t think we’re going to wake up in ‘A Handmaid’s Tale’ anytime real soon, but it would be foolish to ignore the fact that Dobson et al want to take us there.
srm
Just as rape is about power, not about sex, so too is the Dobson/Frist/Perkins/Land mutated version of Christianity about power, not about spirituality.
By cleverly implanting the absurd idea in the minds of many evangelicals that Christianity is under assault here in America, the self-appointed, narcissistic leaders of this so-called movement have weaponized the ignorance of their “followers/victims” on a massive scale. And in addition, not only have they managed to distort and defame the very essence of Christian teaching in their quest to “fix” the dogma around their powermad agenda, they’ve further inflamed the emotional volatility they’ve created in their followers minds by conflating the idea of religious freedom with the freedom to impose and enforce one’s own religious beliefs on others.
None of this lunatic, aggressive, deceitful and intolerant crap they spout is in the Bible. These creatures simply don’t understand that it is not their claims of being Christian that validates their beliefs. Claiming the Christian label does not automatically confer infallability and legitimacty to one’s interpretation of Christian doctrine. Rather, it is the beliefs and principles by which we live our own lives that empowers whatever religion chooses to embrace them. But of course, tyrants always get this essential “cause and effect” calculation wrong.
ppgaz
You make good points, Hannah.
Some of the literature surrounding the First Amendment shows that the Founders thought that protecting the church from the state was as important as protecting the state from the church.
Politicizing religion degrades religion. The real power of the church is its freedom from the politicization that goes with trying to have a church-state nexus. The church trades away that power at is peril. Many moderate religious leaders have been trying to warn of this, although until recently, the warnings have fallen on deaf ears. I think people are listening now, though.
Losing Faith
“The Ten Commandments are a historical artifact in the history of Law”
This is pretty debateable. Take a look at the 10 commandments and tell me how many of them are enforced by actual Law. It’s 2, maybe 4 if you wanna be liberal with the ideas. Also, those particular commandments are common sense. “Thou shalt not Kill”, well duhhhh. You think that idea wouldn’t be in our laws if the 10 commandments didn’t exist? Ofocarse it would. Not giving the same treatment to every other document and various artifacts that contributed to our legal system is respecting an establishment of religion. However, I have a feeling that if we insisted on such a thing, and I’m obviously speculating, the Religious Extremists in this country would have a fit. In their eyes it would diminish the glory of the 10 commandments. Tell me, all you Xians that are here to defend the “rightful” place of the 10 commandments, would it offend you if this was insisted upon? Would this be some sort of an “attack”?
Losing Faith
When having the discussions of extremists in our country, we have to remember to keep Fred Phelps (of “God Hates Fags” fame) in the discussion. He’s one of the looniest of the loons.
Hannah
Excellent comments above.
The right wingers have politicized their brand of religion. This is something that moderate and liberal people of faith are unaccustomed to doing, in fact, we shun doing so. Which is why the righties have dominated the religious dialog in this country.
Rather than simply screaming about being persecuted and judging others for their beliefs, moderates and liberals (of all stripes, not just Christian) would rather act for the common good: caring for the less fortunate, making sure everyone has a job, dignity, education, health care.
Jesus told us to go and make believers of all, but by sharing the good news and the love of God to all. It is repugnant to me that these right wingers try to force their beliefs on others by invoking fear, hate and ignorance.
As for trying to take over the government, Jesus himself was absolutely anti-establishment – against the Roman Empire and the Jewish hierarchy of His day. No way would He approve of what is being done by the right wingers.
Bette
Personally, I thought the Supremes got it backwards.
The right to display either Moses or the Ten Commandments on or in a courthouse makes perfect sense.
All European, English and American laws are derived IN PART from the above. As well as some Talmudic teachings. Giving recognition to the sources from which our legal, moral, and SOME Americans’ religious beliefs are founded, is in my estimation less of an acknowledgement of a religious view and more of mark of respect for the foundations of the Law. The Law, as we know it today, has been 6,000 years in the making.
Putting Moses and the tablets in another public building is just an “in-your-face” tactic that will be debated at some other date in time.
More divisiveness-what else?
Losing Faith
Oi, did you read the comments? How can you claim “All European, English and American laws are derived IN PART from the above.” (by “above” it seems you’re regarding the 10 commendments) when clearly it’s not true. There are MANY laws that have NOTHING to do with the big 10. Again, there’s really only 2 commandments that have worked their way into our legal system and those are fairly common sense. I’m quite sure they would have been in our laws regardless of the existence of the big 10.