Alright- there seems to be consensus so far. This is slow and tedious, but we are going to hash this out proper. So far, we have general agreement on the following:
1.) Valerie Plame worked for the CIA, was stationed in Washington at the time of her outing, and previously had been a covert agent.
2.) Joseph Wilson, husband of Valerie Plame and former ambassador to Iraq, was sent by the CIA to investigate claims that Saddam Hussein was interested in/trying to buy uranium (ignore precisely what he was doing in Niger for now- we can get to that later).
3.) Valerie Plame recommended her husband to CIA authorities for the job, as he had extensive contacts in Africa from his numerous years of previous service.
4.) Joseph Wilson, either on his own volition, or at the behest of the NY Times, wrote an editorial critical of the Bush administration and many claims made by the Bush administration and was quoted widely in major media outlets prior to the ‘outing’ of his wife.
Time to take another baby step:
5.) It was erroneously asserted in the media (pay no attention who circulated it or why) that Joseph Wilson’s report on uranium/Niger was made at the behest of the Office of the Vice President, when in fact he was sent by the CIA. Whether the CIA sent him at his wife’s request is unknowable and doubtful, but she did endorse/recommend him for the job, as he did have contacts in Africa
Yes or no, please. If no, explain why.
Jimmy Jazz
Yes, but replacing “recommended” with “endorsed” as per P.luk’s suggestion.
Mike
I would say that “recommend” might be a little strong. Otherwise yes.
foolishmortal
Eh, maybe… It is my understanding that Cheney was interested in pushing the yellowcake angle and either made or agreed to a request that the CIA authenticate the Niger uranium story. The CIA then dispatched, without input from the OVP, Wilson to pursue this. How I got this idea I couldn’t tell you, but I assume it had something to do with media assertions, erroneous or otherwise.
Retief
Eroneous in that there was a step between Wilson and Cheney. Cheney asked the CIA to investigate, the CIA sent Wilson. Then Wilsn reproted back tot he CIA but, per Cheney, he never followed up on his curiousity.
John Cole
That is not what we are getting at, at least not in this question. I have no doubt the VP wanted more information from the CIA- what is at issue in this specific instance is the claim that ‘the man they (The Office of the VP) chose to send to Niger refutes their claims,’ which was an angle that appeared in the media.
Nikki
Yes
Trevor
Yes
Fledermaus
Yeah, I also think that Cheney asked the CIA to follow up on this (as the documents were, at the very least, suspect) to get some harder evidence. But if it was reported that Cheney asked Wilson to investigate, or approved his mission on the recommendation of the CIA, then yes.
Darrell
Nope. lots of problems with that phrase
I could agree if you substituted
‘and doubtful’
with
‘but likely, given the findings of the Senate intelligence committee,’
And add to the ‘as he did have contacts in Africa’ the following qualifier
‘but was otherwise unqualified to do the job for which she had recommmended him’
There, doesn’t that sound more thorough?
John Cole
Darell:
Valerie Plame was not sitting around one day when she said to herself “Gee- I think I should have the CIA send my husband go to Niger to investigate whether or not Iraq is trying to purchase yeollowcake.”
The OVP asked the CIA to investigate, they either asked her if he would be ok for the job or she heard they were looking for someone to do it and she recommended him, but that is it. Of those two, I find the former a touch more believable, but both are plausible. As to this:
Utterly and colossally irrelevant, at least as to where we are in the stages of trying to find consensus and agreement. Try to resist the urge to flail away at Wilson until the opportunity is presented when it would be more appropriate, if ever.
Rick
John,
I’ll give my valuable answer when you give me a minute in answering my email. My widdle feewings are hurt.
Cordially…
foolishmortal
John, if indeed the “angle” was that the OVP or the VP himself,rather than the government in general, sent Wilson specifically, then:
Yes
Joel
Yes and yes–I think, but I don’t have enough recall of how this all played out originally to state unequivocally that assertions were made in the media that the trip was made at the request of the Vice President (seems likely enough). But I think I see where you’re heading with this.
Vladi G
Yes, with the endorsed language.
Try to resist the urge to flail away at Wilson until the opportunity is presented when it would be more appropriate, if ever.
Why not just ask water to not be wet while you’re at it?
Jim Rhoads (vnjagvet)
Yes.
Darrell
She sure as hell had an agenda.. “that crazy report” and all. What better way to ‘validate’ her prejudged agenda than to send her own husband to do the job
“Colossally irrelevant”? Please, you are trying to steal a base suggesting she sent her otherwise-unqualified-for-the-job husband for the noblest of motivations.
A) I believe her “there’s this crazy report” comment makes clear she prejudged, and has an axe to grind
and
B) the implication that “as he did have contacts in Africa” suggests that he was qualified for that mission. He is, and was, a flamethrowing partisan hack who never should have been sent for that important mission
If you think I’m being insincere, I’m not. I’ve not only stated what I believe, I’ve explained for you why I believe it
Keith
No. The CIA, having been asked by the OVP about Niger yellowcake allegedly being sought by Saddam, needed to find out more. There is no evidence that the OVP either asked that a special trip be made, or that the OVP asked for the report of a specific individual (who ended up being Wilson). The OVP had other information (likely from Italian intelligence) that they probably wanted confirmed, since that intelligence was doubted by some within the Administration.
Harley
Yes.
Pelikan
Hey, I’m new here, but:
Yes.
(though for pedantry’s sake I would reduce “VP’s office” to “Administration” since few normal people can discriminate between the two.)
P.P.S. JC – “I like yer style Dude.” /The Stranger
Richard Bennett
It was Wilson himself who claimed Cheney sent him, and that was his first Big Lie.
Barbar
He is, and was, a flamethrowing partisan hack
This is called projection.
Wilson is a longtime government officer and ambassador who has served well under Republican Presidents.
You are a flamethrowing partisan hack.
John Cole
Keith- take a moment to explain to me why rephrasing precisely what I have said warrants a no.
SoCalJustice
More or Less, yes.
Darrell
Well, besides the PR jihad he went on against the administration, an attack which the Senate intelligence committee found to be unfounded, to put it charitably. Wilson also has written very partisan articles for the left-wing ‘Nation’ magazine, not to mention NYT
Sorry, I see no way one can seriously argue that Wilson was anything but a partisan hack. After all Wilson has said and done, are you lefties actually arguing that he was in anyway some sort of fair minded impartial guy?
John Cole
Darrell:
Damnit to hell- What in the follwowing six steps addresses any of what you are ranting about. What is at issue here in step #6 is whether or not the CIA or the VP sent him.
I can start antoher f-ing thread for you to rant away against Wilson, impeach his credibility, attack his wife, or whatever. If you would like, I will do so and call it “Darrell’s Plame Flame War Thread.”
But, answer yes or no to the following question, without any editorializing:
Did Wilson go to Africa at the behest of the CIA, and not the Office of the Vice President?
eileen from OH
Uh, dumb question and forgive if asked and answered (looked and couldn’t find it.)
Are we doing these individually or incrementally? Once we hit one that we can’t agree with and it gets included anyway, should we vote “no” on each succeeding one, because the offending point is still included?
Don’t mean to be a “what are the rules” twit, sorry.
But I find this an extremely interesting way to approach an issue. Find the commonality. Thanks for doing it.
eileen from OH
Mike S
Yes.
Boy is it hard not to comment further.
Darrell
Yes, short answer. I believe he went at the behest of the CIA.
Oh yeah, I’m only “ranting”, as if his credibility wasn’t already impeached into dirt
“Valerie had nothing to do with the matter,” Wilson wrote in a memoir published this year. “She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip.”
John Cole
If someone has substantive no’s, other than ones that stray wildly off the topic (see above), I will modify the post, as I have in previous editions).
If, even after the modification, and you still disagree, say no when you disagree.
I am not trying to establish some sort of objective truth, but rather I am trying to establish what most people see as a reasonable interpretation of the truth.
Barbar
Let me repeat: Wilson is a longtime government officer and ambassador who has served well under Republican Presidents.
I can only imagine your strictly objective nonpartisan outrage at him if in addition to all the horrible crimes he committed he had falsely insisted that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction while leading America to a costly war.
Barbar
John,
My apologies for contributing to the sidetrack.
I believe your statement is on track, but I would appreciate it if someone could perhaps post a link to a news story that could reasonably confirm the facts. I don’t really remember the details, if I ever saw them.
Vladi G
Link please. With quotes from Wilson. Not quotes of someone saying what Wilson said. Where’s the report that has Wilson saying “I was picked by VP Cheney”?
Jess
How can we really know how directly involved the OVP was in all this? It’s not like we can count on them to be truthful anymore. According to the summery from Digby’s blog, Wilson claims that the OVP was indirectly involved:
JC
No to this part – Whether the CIA sent him at his wife’s request is unknowable and doubtful.
Even the Senate Intelligence Report, heavily skewed towards Republicans (which I’ve just been poring through) doesn’t ever say that this was done at “his wife’s request”. Wilson and the report both say that the CIA (or the working group) sent Wilson, including sentences like “after much discussion” it was agreed Wilson could go.
So you can be pretty sure it wasn’t at Plame’s “request”.
YES on the recommendation though.
On the other hand, this may just be semantics. Perhaps it would be better to say Plame didn’t DECIDE that Wilson would go.
Tim F
Yes. We’ll be able to say more later, I’m sure. If not we’ll just hijack some thread about kittens and turn it into a Plame war.
John Cole
Here is a quote in the most recent Newsweek story:
I can’t find anything else atm, but it was claimed widely that Cheney himself and/or his staff specifically sent Wilson.
eileen from OH
Okaaaay, I’m not sure what to do.
5 is fine with me, but I have to vote NO because #4 has not been modified and is, I think, factually inaccurate. I gave it a squishy yes but after re-reading Wilson’s editorial I agree 100% with p lukasiak. Wilson was not “critical of the Bush administration and many claims made by the Bush administration.” He was critical of ONE CLAIM – the one he knew personally about and had expertise in. I don’t think it’s nit-picking, cuz it’s what the whole bloody article is about. It’s worth re-reading if you think I’m wrong. (hope the link works – I’m a klutz at these.)
eileen from OH
Demdude
Yes the CIA Sent him. I have a problem with saying that, with absolutely no evidence either way, that the Office of the Vice President did not initiate the request to the CIA or approve of the trip. Just because the OVP said they didn’t, I’m sorry, is not good enough. Karl Rove had nothing to do with the Plame leak either.
If you had just said that he was sent by the CIA, no problem.
Yes. Agree.
KC
I’m don’t think the Cheney-Wilson link exists. I thought Wilson went for the CIA. What’s interesting though, is that Raw Story (not that I put tons of faith in Raw Story) has a talking point memo that includes the Cheney-Wilson connection, presumably to discredit Wilson. Indeed, the whole memo is interesting and seems to correspond with a document a journalist refers to in the WH gaggle today. Here are the links to compare:
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Exclusive_GOP_talking_points_on_Rove_seek_to_discre_0712.html
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Scotty_Gaggle_RNC_Rove.wmv
What’s the best way to link stuff? I’m having to do it the old fashion way because I’m not sure how to use all the fancy buttons that are now in the “post a comment” section.
John Cole
KC-
Take the link, and copy it. Then highlight whatever words you want associated with the link (right click and leave it highlighted). Then click on the ‘link’ button (located right above where you enter text for comments), and paste the appropriate hyperlink. Press OK.
So, taking your post above, it should read:
Note how two and links each have a hyperlink.
foolishmortal
I’m afraid I’m going to have to agree w/ jess and demdude here. Cheney et al have zero credibility on this issue. I’m not saying that Wilson has a great deal more, but I am saying that one cannot confidently opine either way.
KC
Right on, John, thanks.
Keith
Yes (changed from a previous No)
JC
Actually there was a request from the VP Office for more information about Niger, to either confirm or disconfirm Niger concerns.
this was relayed down the channel, and ended up at the working group.
One of the groups that was asked to investigate these matters, ended up picking Wilson after Plame’s suggestion. (Again, much discussion about this in the report itself. Where it was decided, the role of Plame to do a one minute introduction and then leave the room while the working group talked to Wilson, to decide if it was okay he go.)
Also, looking at the reproduction of Wilson’s column on Common Dreams, he DOESN’T say Cheney sent him – he says that at the request of Cheney’s office, the CIA sent him. Again, these requests work their way down channels.
So in no way did Cheney or his group SPECIFICALLY send Wilson. This isn’t what Wilson claimed, and this isn’t what the report says.
The Disenfranchised Voter
“I can’t find anything else atm, but it was claimed widely that Cheney himself and/or his staff specifically sent Wilson.”
Hmm, I’m a pretty devout follower of politics and I don’t ever remember hearing about Wilsom claiming the office of the VP sent him.
So until you can find some other evidence of Wilson making this claim, I’m going to have to vote No.
If anyone can provide evidence of Wilson making this claim, please do so. (With an exception to Darrell because I’m not trusting NewsMax, or WorldNetDaily)
Steve
Not sure yet. I need to see an older cite of the claim that Cheney sent Wilson than the recent Newsweek story.
The problem is, at some point, this argument became a Republican strawman designed to discredit Wilson (“he said the OVP sent him, but Cheney denies it!”). What’s clear is that Wilson certainly didn’t make that claim in his original column.
Even though statement 5 says “pay no attention to who circulated it,” I think it’s important to at least nail down the timing.
John Cole
DEV- I don’t recall atm if Wilson himself said it (Iknow he didn’t in the NY Times piece- there are those who doo attribute thiis to him so it may have been made in as an off the cuff remark in an interview), but I do remember the claim being repeated in the media, which is why I said in statement 5 to “pay no attention to who circulated it and why.”
Steve
I want to say no for a different reason. The first sentence includes two different concepts – whether the REPORT was made at the behest of the VP, and whether the TRIP was ordered by the CIA. In other words, one possibility is that the OVP didn’t specifically say “send someone to Africa to check on this” but did say “gee, it would be great if we had some better information on this,” at which point the CIA decided they should send someone to Africa. To the extent the confusion over this issue is at all unintentional, it probably arises from the distinction between these two issues, so I think it’s preferable to clean up the language.
Emperor Larry Bernard
Yes:
but on the “unknowable and doubtful” it is sadly exceptionally typical of people I know whom have gotten government contracts when people they knew had a buercratic inside position.
as for Wilson being a partisan hack: Yes he served in Republican administrations -but more importantly- he served as a political Operative for both Gore and Kerry… I don’t know how far back that behavior goes but it puts his credibility into question.
Now Ms. Plame could have been in a position to lobby a superior to send her husband on what was “very good logic” he knew the people in power in niger, he knew allot of the politics of the region… and apperently he had done similar work for the agency in the past.
Sending him at her behest wouldn’t be illogical.
Mr Furious
5. I think I’m saying “No.”
My freaking head is spinning at this point.
I believe the trip was initiated by the CIA because of a request for info/confirmation from the OVP. I don’t think Cheney himself had much to do with it except a scowly grunt in the affirmative to Scooter when presented with the idea to go to the CIA.
I don’t think the OVP specifically asked for Wilson or even necessarily a trip to Niger. They just asked for confirmation/info.
So, step by step, my theory…
1. OVP asks the CIA for the scoop on the yellowcake story
2. The CIA says, “Let’s send someone to Niger to check this out.”
3. Somewhere at this stage Plame becomes involved
Mr Furious
5. I think I’m saying “No.”
My freaking head is spinning at this point.
I believe the trip was initiated by the CIA because of a request for info/confirmation from the OVP. I don’t think Cheney himself had much to do with it except a scowly grunt in the affirmative to Scooter when presented with the idea to go to the CIA.
I don’t think the OVP specifically asked for Wilson or even necessarily a trip to Niger. They just asked for confirmation/info.
So, step by step, my theory…
1. OVP asks the CIA for the scoop on the yellowcake story
2. The CIA says, “Let’s send someone to Niger to check this out.”
3. Somewhere at this stage Plame becomes involved
Steve
Nicholas Kristof (5/6/03): “I’m told by a person involved in the Niger caper that more than a year ago the vice president’s office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal, so a former U.S. ambassador to Africa was dispatched to Niger.”
This is the very beginning of the story, so the implication that there was some sort of causal relationship starts here. I couldn’t tell you the first time someone claims that OVP requested anything more specific than “an investigation of the uranium deal.”
I still think “at the behest” in John’s post is the ambiguous part. As written, it is possible for both parts of the sentence to be true; Wilson was sent based upon a request by the OVP, but the decision to send Wilson (and, indeed, the decision to send someone to Africa at all) was made at the CIA.
Mr Furious
Crap! I can’t believe I double-posted! Sorry.
JC
I’m voting NO on five as well, for both points.
“It was erroneously asserted in the media (pay no attention who circulated it or why) that Joseph Wilson’s report on uranium/Niger was made at the behest of the Office of the Vice President, when in fact he was sent by the CIA.”
“Erroneously asserted” – in this case, since this is (now) a Republican talking point to discredit Wilson – i.e. Wilson claimed that OVP sent Wilson, so Wilson is a liar, so Rove was simply clearing up this lie for media types (Novak, Cooper) taken in by it.
“Whether the CIA sent him at his wife’s request is unknowable and doubtful, but she did endorse/recommend him for the job, as he did have contacts in Africa”
As I’ve said, it is pretty clear this Wilson was sent “at his wife’s request” is pretty much knowably FALSE. And as I’ve said, endorse/recommend might be too strong (or maybe not, don’t know).
Dave
At this point, shouldn’t we have the choice to vote “moot” in these procedings. Why/What/Whom Wilson was performing his little stunts for is not important and only dilutes the true issue.
Two issues are important:
1) Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent at the time Novak “out-ed” her.
2) Overwhelming evidence points that Rove was the leak.
Anything else is moot. Besides, when has the CIA ever given a damn about the moral merits of who is on there payroll or how the go about a mission. Sadaam, Bin Laden, et al received 1099s from the CIA…
Steve
On the last point, endorse/recommend is definitely fair. The Senate Committee on Intelligence cited several pieces of evidence on this point, including Plame’s memo to the Deputy Chief of the Counterproliferation Division stating “my husband has good relations with both the PM and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.” Even taken in isolation, I think endorse/recommend is a more than fair choice of words.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Hmm, I don’t at all. I would appreciate any evidence, it doesn’t have to be from Wilson himself.
Gotcha. I guess I should read more carefully next time. :)
Emperor Larry Bernard
Ooooooooook
for Valerie Plame to be a covert operative she would have had to be (under the law being investigated) stationed overseas less then 5 years before the incident in question.
That is not the case
ergo.. she isn’t a clandestine op by the law
Emperor Larry Bernard
Ooooooooook
for Valerie Plame to be a covert operative she would have had to be (under the law being investigated) stationed overseas less then 5 years before the incident in question.
That is not the case
ergo.. she isn’t a clandestine op by the law
Emperor Larry Bernard
Ooooooooook
for Valerie Plame to be a covert operative she would have had to be (under the law being investigated) stationed overseas less then 5 years before the incident in question.
That is not the case
ergo.. she isn’t a clandestine op by the law
Phil Smith
The CIA sent him as a result of a request for additional information, made by the VP and others.
I think that his posting is quite clearly a direct result of his wife’s input.
Both quotes presented directly as they appear on the full senate committe report, p. 39. No to both clauses, although the second clause has enough wiggle in it to fly, I guess.
Cliff
First, regardless of who circulated this claim or why — WAS this claim circulated, and in what exact words?
I would like to add my voice to those stating there isn’t necessarily a contradiction between the statement that
a) Joseph Wilson’s report on uranium/Niger was made at the behest of the Office of the Vice President
and the statement that
b) he was sent by the CIA
Just to clarify how this can be:
Let’s say President Bush gets an initial draft of a global warming report and says gee willikers what sort of commies did this report, my buddies at Exxon tell me there’s no scientific consensus on global warming, get me a rewrite.
I’m an employee of a government organization doing a report on global warming, and word comes down from On High to change wording and omit data so as to give a more doubtful picture.
Then both these statements can be true:
– I am told to do this by my immediate supervisor.
– I am doing this at the behest of the President.
arnott
so ?
ARROW
From WSJ: Senate Report Clouds Leak Investigation; By Davis S. Cloud and Gary Fields; July 19, 2004; Page A4
“WASHINGTON — A long-running Justice Department investigation into which Bush-administration official leaked CIA operative Valerie Plame’s name is back where it started: Her husband, former diplomat Joseph Wilson, is finding his credibility under severe assault. And that could have implications for how the leak case is resolved.”
“A Senate Intelligence Committee report released this month, citing internal Central Intelligence Agency e-mails and interviews, says Ms. Plame suggested that her CIA superiors use Mr. Wilson for a 2002 mission to Niger to investigate now-discredited reports about prewar attempts by Iraq to purchase uranium “yellowcake.” That contradicts Mr. Wilson’s repeated claim that his wife played no part in the decision to send him on the trip. The report also portrayed Mr. Wilson as embellishing the role he played in investigating the Niger story. Mr. Wilson hit back on Friday with a six-page rebuttal, accusing the committee of “errors and distortions.””
This timeline was in the same article:
“Key events in the criminal investigation into the leak of an undercover CIA officer
ARROW
From Sun-Times; Wilson contradictions leave Democrat senators speechless; July 15, 2004; By Robert Novak:
“Plame sent out an internal CIA memo saying ”my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.” A State Department analyst told the committee about an inter-agency meeting in 2002 that was ”apparently convened by [Wilson’s] wife, who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue.” ”
“The committee found that the CIA report, based on Wilson’s mission, differed considerably from the former ambassador’s description to the committee of his findings. That report ”did not refute the possibility that Iraq had approached Niger to purchase uranium.” As far as his statement to the Washington Post about ”forged documents” involved in the alleged Iraqi attempt to buy uranium, Wilson told the committee he may have ”misspoken.” In fact, the intelligence community agreed that ”Iraq was attempting to procure uranium from Africa.” ”
“”While there was no dispute with the underlying facts,” Chairman Roberts wrote separately, ”my Democrat colleagues refused to allow” two conclusions in the report. The first conclusion merely said that Wilson was sent to Niger at his wife’s suggestion. The second conclusion is devastating: ”Rather than speaking publicly about his actual experiences during his inquiry of the Niger issue, the former ambassador seems to have included information he learned from press accounts and from his beliefs about how the Intelligence Community would have or should have handled the information he provided.” ”
“The normally mild Roberts is harsh in his condemnation: ”Time and again, Joe Wilson told anyone who would listen that the president had lied to the American people, that the vice president had lied, and that he had ‘debunked’ the claim that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. . . . [N]ot only did he NOT ‘debunk’ the claim, he actually gave some intelligence analysts even more reason to believe that it may be true.” Roberts called it ”important” for the committee to declare much of what Wilson said ”had no basis in fact.” In response, Democrats were silent. “
ARROW
From WSJ: Senate Report Clouds Leak Investigation; By Davis S. Cloud and Gary Fields; July 19, 2004; Page A4
“WASHINGTON — A long-running Justice Department investigation into which Bush-administration official leaked CIA operative Valerie Plame’s name is back where it started: Her husband, former diplomat Joseph Wilson, is finding his credibility under severe assault. And that could have implications for how the leak case is resolved.”
“A Senate Intelligence Committee report released this month, citing internal Central Intelligence Agency e-mails and interviews, says Ms. Plame suggested that her CIA superiors use Mr. Wilson for a 2002 mission to Niger to investigate now-discredited reports about prewar attempts by Iraq to purchase uranium “yellowcake.” That contradicts Mr. Wilson’s repeated claim that his wife played no part in the decision to send him on the trip. The report also portrayed Mr. Wilson as embellishing the role he played in investigating the Niger story. Mr. Wilson hit back on Friday with a six-page rebuttal, accusing the committee of “errors and distortions.””
This timeline was in the same article:
“Key events in the criminal investigation into the leak of an undercover CIA officer
ARROW
From NRO:– Lawyer: Cooper
gswift
Emperor Larry Bernard:
You say Plame didn’t qualify as an undercover op, but the DOJ investigated at the behest of the CIA. Both departments seem to agree there was a crime committed here.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Once I saw ARROW’s handle, I said the words “Oh God” and I’m not even a theist.
Arrow, you offer the same “moonbat” theory that AJ and Darrell did.
Go to Free republic where you are appreciated.
Emperor Larry Bernard
Not according to Fitgerald who has said in several public statements he has (to date) found no evidence of a crime.
The CIA has not, nor has valerie plame released evidence of her being a covered person under the law.
DOJ is obligated to look into things at the behest of the CIA under the law when they ask
and secondly this law was designed primarily because of internal folks in the CIA to keep them from leaking. With the details allegedly from the CIA that have come out about Ms. Plame’s role in getting her husband hired the CIA could be trying to sniff out who leaked that information
demimondian
No as phrased. I would be comfortable with the phrasing
In my opinion, the restatement of (3) is unecessary. Claim (7) is the critical one: it is perfectly reasonable to proffer a relative as the best qualified person for a job, provided reasonable safeguards are in place to prevent neopotism. Typically, disclosing you conflict of interest and recusing yourself from the decision after making such a nomination are considered to be sufficient protections.
Christie S.
Yes
p.lukasiak
Absolutely No.
Here you are going far afield of the facts.
I don’t recall any media reports specifically asserting that OVP selected Wilson — which is what you seem to be getting at here. (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.)
The reporting at that time made it clear that Wilson was selected by the CIA, but that the reason the trip was arranged was that the OVP wanted more info on the Niger/Uranium claim.
In other words, it was not “erroneously reported” that Wilson was sent at the behest of the OVP — it was accurately reported that Wilson was sent at the behest of the OVP on a trip arranged by the CIA.
Or even better…”The media was reporting that Wilson was sent at the behest of the administration”. That is true, and it is what was being reported at the time, and perhaps most importantly, it is what the administration was desperately trying to deny. The clear implication was that the administration had asked for more information on the Niger/Uranium claim, and when that information did not conform to what they wanted to hear, they ignored it.
This is starting to look like a scam — you are trying to “fix the facts and intelligence” to conform to current White House spin that all Rove and Libby were trying to do was “clear the air” with regard to “erroneous media reports.” But as I noted earlier, there was no reporting that I’m aware of claiming the direct involvement of either Cheney or Tenet in the selection of Joe Wilson to go to Niger.
Wilson’s column appeared in July 2003, months after the IAEA had made it clear that there was no evidence supporting the “Iraq is working on nukes” accusation, and after months of looking for WMDs and not finding any evidence that any of the WMD claims made by the administration had a basis in fact. People had started asking questions about why the administration was so adamant about its WMD claims when there was nothing to back them up — and Joe Wilson’s column made it clear that credible and important contrary evidence had been ignored.
The administration was in deep doo-doo, and Rove and Libby were trying to disassociate “the administration” from the trip and its conclusions by making it appear that it was some kind of nepotistic rogue operation set up in the bowels of the CIA.
Kirk Spencer
This baby step is two steps, so I’ll answer each step separately.
To the first – the question of whether it was VP or CIA that sent him – I have to say no. Basically you’ve set a false exclusion which has already been noted. A multi-agency boss says to one of his agencies, “Get some confirmation on this.” The agency boss passes it down to the appropriate task office, which then sets about picking the body responsible for the task of getting some confirmation on this. It is possible and IMO likely that the report on Niger’s uranium was done at the behest of the administration (OVP) while it was the CIA that assigned the task of producing the report to Wilson.
To the second – did Valerie Plame endorse/recommend Wilson for the task – I vote yes.
Defense Guy
Yes with the caveat that you should remove the word doubtful from the phrasing, as it adds a level of judgment that may not be appropriate.
Call of the Right
Darrell:
Are you now or have you ever been known as “Uncle Meat”, “Veritas”, and/or “Agnot” on Fuckedcompany.com?
Reminder to the good folks at Balloon Juice, please do NOT feed the Trolls. Thank you.
Defense Guy
Since the site has been in a changing mode as of late, who gets to decide what a troll is? John does, of course, but I am curious why someone espousing an opinion different than your own, or from the left in general, is now a troll.
Call of the Right
Oh, I’m sorry I did not realize only John is allowed to have free thought and opinions on BJ. My bad.
Still waiting for Darrell’s responce. The question is valid.
Cordially,
Call of the Right
Giacomo
The view from Europe is: who cares about the husband? You blew up one of your own covert agents, working at a very high level with an important mission in a very sensible trouble-spot country, a long-established multi-national mission that had to be dismantled in a hurry… and this just so that a politician could score an internal propaganda point.
I’m sure you can agree with this statement, and picture us as puzzled as we are.
Defense Guy
This is an opinion? It seems more like a call to avoid the points that you don’t agree with. An opinion is more like, ‘you are such a partisan dickhead’. See the difference?
Defense Guy
Giacomo
You are of course right that Robert Novak was an absolute bastard for writing that article. Our press, and some in our political establishment do not quite seem to understand this point.
ARROW
WSJ: Karl Rove, Whistleblower; July 13, 2005; Page A14:
Steve
If anyone cares to cite to a TV appearance where Wilson says he was recommended by Cheney, or a press account of such an appearance, that would be really helpful. Otherwise, some of us are probably not inclined to take the word of a member of the “Rove deserves a medal” crowd.
Jonas Cord
From what I can gather, the impresson that Wilson was directly ordered by Cheney to go to Niger comes from the description of the events in Wilsons book (which I haven’t read.)
By the way, every time I read about Joe Wilson, he is described as a former ambassador to Africa, not to Iraq. Which is he?
Jonas Cord
From what I can gather, the impresson that Wilson was directly ordered by Cheney to go to Niger comes from the description of the events in Wilsons book (which I haven’t read.)
By the way, every time I read about Joe Wilson, he is described as a former ambassador to Africa, not to Iraq. Which is he?
Jeff
NO, to the extent that this point implies that the main thrust of the story on Wilson was that he was “Cheney’s guy” and even he didn’t buy the yellowcake story. I may be wrong, but I thought the story was played simply as “the administration pressed these claims, even though a special envoy (or whatever the hell Wilson would be called in this role) who was sent to confirm the story cast doubt on its accuracy (along with a bunch of other people in various departments, btw).” Maybe I was not reading the stories closely enough at the time, but I do not recall “Cheney sent him” being a part of the chatter, and certainly Wilson’s op-ed, which started the whole mess, does not make that claim. This seems like post-facto spin of a sort that Republicans are very, very good at– sieze on a minor (or non-existent) inconsistency and play it up as if it is the whole story.
Jeff
And here is this excerpt from a transcript of a CNN broadcast, as reported by talkingppoints:
DR. CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I didn’t know Joe Wilson was going to Niger. And if you look in Director Tenet’s statement, it says that counter-proliferation experts, on their own initiative, sent Joe Wilson. So, I don’t know…
BLITZER: Who sent him?
RICE: Well, it was certainly not at a level that had anything to do with the White House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Is that true?
WILSON: Well, look, it’s absolutely true that neither the vice president nor Dr. Rice nor even George Tenet knew that I was traveling to Niger.
What they did, what the office of the vice president did, and, in fact, I believe now from Mr. Libby’s statement, it was probably the vice president himself…
BLITZER: Scooter Libby is the chief of staff for the vice president.
WILSON: Scooter Libby.
They asked essentially that we follow up on this report — that the agency follow up on the report. So it was a question that went to the CIA briefer from the Office of the Vice President. The CIA, at the operational level, made a determination that the best way to answer this serious question was to send somebody out there who knew something about both the uranium business and those Niger officials that were in office at the time these reported documents were executed.
AJStrata
Yes.
Jackmormon
No. P. Lukasiak’s comment sums it up better than I could.