For overspill and rehashing of off-topic or unaddressed points.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.
Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?
Impressively dumb. Congratulations.
The willow is too close to the house.
They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.
Let’s finish the job.
We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.
Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.
Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.
Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.
No one could have predicted…
Optimism opens the door to great things.
Consistently wrong since 2002
This blog will pay for itself.
🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵
Happy indictment week to all who celebrate!
The revolution will be supervised.
Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.
I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.
It’s time for the GOP to dust off that post-2012 autopsy, completely ignore it, and light the party on fire again.
Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.
American History and Black History Cannot Be Separated
If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.
After roe, women are no longer free.
Jeff
Rhode Island is neither a road nor an island. Discuss.
Mr Furious
I don’t want any bullshit flame war, but if anyone cares about my overall stance on the whole thing, I wrote it up at my place. Feel free to drop over. Even Darrell.
Defense Guy
It is hard work to attempt to come together when the gap between what we believe is so surely wide. The fact that we can do so without seeking to murder each other is a hopeful sign.
Damn you liberals, you know, just to keep my neo-con street cred going.
Zifnab
Responding to Mr. Furious.
Bullshit.
Karl Rove is a sleaze and he’s always been a sleaze. Even if we were to throw him in prison tommorrow, the policy he’s innitiated and those policies he has on the drawing board will still haunt our country for decades to come. But Rove has always been somewhat in the shadows. Bush is the frontman of the outfit with Rumsfield and Cheney playing Vadar to a fallen Republic Senate. But to leave Rove wallowing in shadow… the limelight won’t stick.
It didn’t stick on DeLay when he was out playing Congressman of Fortune. It didn’t stick on Frist for his garbage medical science. It sure as hell won’t stick on Rove.
And when another post-pubecent hussy goes missing in Aruba or a California DA wants to take another swing at the Jackson family values Rove will slip away under cover of our ADD media to be seen only in Republican Convension photo-ops with big money donars.
Let’s get this guy out of the White House now. And keep him out. I’d much rather see Rove “retire to be with his family” than play puppet-master from the West Wing. He’s not going to be in jail either way. Just get the slime out while you’ve got the chance. Justice can wait for ’06.
prob
Good call, Zitnab…here’s hoping…
JG
Just for the record D Guy, not everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal. Some of us are pissed off moderates.
Defense Guy
damn you moderates! Hope that helps.
JG
LOL
Vladi G
I’d like to know what the true “honest” people like Darrell think of this. The following is Ken Mehlman trying to make it sound like Wilson claimed he was sent by the OVP, or the VP himself:
JG
So we would start talking about Mehlman?
John S
Did anyone mention that Linux sux yet?
demimondian
John S:
Linux is teh Suxx0r. Wind0s (From Micro$fot) is teh rulez.
There. Is that better?
Vladi G
It’s a Darrell and Plame thread. Darrell likes to talk about how the left is so dishonest and the right is so honest. Mehlman is being deliberately dishonest about what Joe Wilson said. I want his comment on Mehlman’s dishonesty.
Then again, Darrell is a proven liar, so maybe he’s not the best person to ask.
JG
Yankees suck too since we’re on the subject.
JG
My point was that Mehlman is out making all kinds of noise so we focus on him instead of Rove. Kind of like talking about whether or not Plame was covert at the time as though it matters. Anyone who ever worked with her or her front company in the past is now burned. Hopefully we weren’t still using any of them.
Defense Guy
Of course Vladi G thinks that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the lies that Wilson told, you know, because they suit his purpose. Tell us ‘honestly’ Vladi, why did you choose to start the quote there rather than at the question asked by Blitzer?
And round and round and round we go. Republicans are evil and Democrats are stupid morons. Isn’t this fun?
I know, let’s pass a law stating that political ‘crimes’ do not require a trial and proceed directly to execution.
Do you suppose anyone would be left standing after that?
slickdpdx
You are making a heroic effort. Just remember, no good deed goes unpunished!
Darrell
It’s always interesting to read the shrill hysterics of leftist kooks like Andrei. He is on a jihad, let me tell ya
Tell me Vladi, have I ever once made a post on Ken Mehlman? No? Regarding the quote you’re so exercised over, Wilson said (from your quote above):
Wilson seems to contradict himself.. anyway, I could care less. But feel free to knock yourself out over it if it floats your boat.. blather on
Darrell
Apologies. I meant Vladi, the hair-on-fire loon who posted above
Mike S
It’s always interesting to read what GOP cultists like Darrell write. Their God is George Bush and their party is more important than their country is. If you disagree with either you are a traitor.
Andrei
“Of course Vladi G thinks that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the lies that Wilson told, you know, because they suit his purpose.”
For sake of clarity… what lies did Wilson tell? That his wife didn’t recommend him for the task finding mission? Is that the lie everyone keeps referring to? Is that the extent of the poison?
Outside of that, did Niger deal in yellowcake deals with Saddam Hussein? Did Wilson lie about that? Where are the WMDs they told us Iraq had? And what about the things GWI said about Wilson from Gulf War I?
Why exactly has Wilson turned out to be some person that exacts the ire of those defending this administration? All he did was write an Op-Ed peice for crissake. How exactly does that qualify him as a scumbag liar?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Vladi G
Well, because it didn’t really shed any new light on the fact that Mehlman is deliberately lying. But if it makes you feel better, here:
Happy now? What exactly does that change about Mehlman’s lies?
Andrei
“It’s always interesting to read the shrill hysterics of leftist kooks like Andrei. He is on a jihad, let me tell ya”
Hey Darrell… I’ll say this real slow for you so you can understand.
Go. Fuck. Yourself.
For fuck’s sake Cole… I can’t honestly believe that you want to keep “right leaning” guys like Darrell on your blog, or fear that some of us (liberal/moderate/independent) might push him or those like him away.
From all the vitriol you spew at the extreme organizations in the GOP these days for their assinine behavior and actions these days, Darrell is the epitome of what is wrong with your party.
And yet you want to keep him here. Even pandering to him by giving him a post title.
Unfucking real.
Vladi G
Honestly, Darrell, you couldn’t get any dumber if you drilled a hole in your own forehead and filled it with pudding. He’s not contradicting himself. He’s saying the OVP or the VP himself asked the CIA to follow up. The CIA, without the knowledge of the OVP, selected Wilson to go to Niger and follow up. It’s really quite simple.
I asked you about honesty. You say the right is honest and the left are liars, despite the fact that you’re a proven liar, and that Mehlman is lying here. How do you reconcile that?
Jeff
Darrell, I know you “could care less,” but read the whole transcript excerpt for godsake– the quote is that he thinks the VP himself had asked questions of the CIA, and the way the CIA adressed those questions was to send Wilson to Niger. He never claims that Cheney sent him.
But IF HE DID, how would it change the fact that Rove burned a CIA operative, her front company, and anyone who dealt with either, for the sake of political expediency? Why defend that kind of crap, seriously?
Darrell
that hasn’t been demonstrated yet, now has it? But don’t let that stop you from repeating the lies anyway.. it’s who you are
Anderson
Anybody got anything to say about Larry Johnson, or was this hashed out in another thread that I missed?
The rest of the guy’s post shows that he’s a strong Bush critic, but still: here’s a retired CIA guy saying he knew Plame was covert until Novak burned her. Does anyone have any *evidence* to refute Johnson?
Tim F
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Darrell
Well aside from the lie that he went public with about how his wife had “nothing” to do with his trip to Niger, let’s not forget his flamethrowing proven lie that the Niger documents were “forged” because dates were wrong.
From the final Senate intelligence committee report:
then Wilson went on to explain that his slanderous lies were merely “literary flair”. I’d say it’s been demonstrated thoroughly that Wilson is a lying sack of sh*t
Anderson
he’s a strong Bush critic,
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Just trying to be fair-minded. Obviously, people do sometimes lie for partisan purposes.
demimondian
Darrell, damn it! Jeff isn’t the lies, I’m the lies, that’s the story the Rove told us to tell, and I for one, am sticking with it.
(Seriously…uhh, guys? I don’t think that this is even vaguely civil. It’s really much more fun to see clever insults. If I want to hear childish insults, I’ll go home to Washington and spend time with my kids. Can you tell I’m homesick?)
Mike S
it’s been demonstrated thoroughly that
WilsonDarrell is a lying sack of sh*tAnderson
Darrell … we can all stipulate that Joe Wilson is really Hannibal Lecter, and it makes *no difference whatsoever* to the issues.
Why flog this, if not to misdirect? Please explain.
Darrell
Whining like the little bitch you know you are.. “Whaaahhhh, John do something about Darrell.. he makes me feel so stupid”
Mike S
heh. After John had asked for civility yesterday a commenter was uncivil. Darrell, pussy boy extroardinaire, whined to John like a child who dropped his ice cream cone. Now he’s a tough guy.
BTW Darrell. You don’t make him look stupid, you make your party look stupid.
Vladi G
Darrell still refuses to comment on being outed as a proven liar, or to comment on Mehlman’s lies. Why is that, Darrell?
Andrei
“Whining like the little bitch you know you are…”
Wow… when someone tells you to go fuck yourself, you think they are a whining little bitch?
Delusional is the only word that comes to mind.
JG
So Wilson lied. Who cares? Its just a distraction right Darrell? So its been established that Wilson lied. Does that in any way change what Rove did?
Darrell
Whoa there, I wasn’t “flogging” it as you claim, I was answering a direct question from Andrei:
He was suggesting that the ‘only lie’ from Wilson was about whether or not his wife sent him to Niger. I responded. If you’re going to accuse me of “misdirecting”, at least try and get a clue first, ok?
Darrell
.
No I didn’t. I never whined to John. that’s a lie. But then again, so many of you leftist are liars.. it’s who you are
Tim F
Darrell, it is strange that you continue claiming that the ‘Senate Committee’ chastised Wilson, when the Committee couldn’t even get a majority of its Republicans to agree to that addendum. Please clarify.
Andrei
“He [Andrei] was suggesting that the ‘only lie’ from Wilson was about whether or not his wife sent him to Niger.”
How is asking a question suggesting anything? It was a scoped question to be sure I understood the full extent of the claim that Wilson lied and what he lied about, as has been coming out in these GOP talking points that have blasted the “liberal” MSM. I wasn’t suggesting anything. I was asking a question.
My God… Delusional is indeed the term.
Mike S
Wittle Dawwell from yesterday.
JG
Delusional and representative.
Ben
I can’t believe it has taken this long for the people who frequent this board to realize that Darrell is a douchebag and lying sack of shit… really, what took you guys so long?
Darrell, which on of the brothers from Newhart are you? Oh, that’s right, the stupid one. I’m ashamed to call myself a Republican any longer because of people like darryl. BTW, Daryl outed himself in another way last week ;-)
ppgaz
Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha!
You are capable of many things, Darrell, but making someone else feel stupid is not among them.
Did you mean “stupified”?
Anderson
Okay, Darrell, what about Larry Johnson? Do you agree that, when Novak’s column ran, she was undercover?
And hey, people, this swearing back & forth is not making you look especially bright; quite the opposite. Of course, if you’ve mutually agreed that it’s just fun to say “fuck you, shitbag” back and forth, then carry on.
demimondian
As far as I know, Wilson merely said that Plame had nothing to do with his selection. That has been interpreted as an untrue statement — but it may be untrue and not a lie…or it even may not be untrue.
First, we don’t know whether she told him she nominated him for the job. I’ve certainly not always told my wife when I’ve suggested to people that she might be a good choice for a job — I frequently suggest people for jobs without telling them. I figure it’s none of their business that I’ve pointed out that they’re good for a certain job.
Second, she might not have realized that she had suggested him for the job. I’ve had hallway conversations in which I’ve named someone in the “Well, you know, person x could do the job really well. Not that she would, of course, but, hey, we can dream, right?” I never thought of myself as genuinely suggesting the person — I’ve said they can do the job, but that they wouldn’t be interested. I’ve also had people follow up on such leads.
Third, and to my mind most plausible, Wilson could have told the complete truth in an unexpected way. It is quite literally true that she had nothing to do with his selection — that was the work of the committee. In his mind, he was saying “I was not selected through nepotism; my wife had nothing to do with my choice.” That statement, so interpreted, would be both literally and intentionally true. The only falsehood would arise from a jaundiced reading of it.
In none of these cases is Wilson’s statement a lie. In one of them, in fact, it’s an honi soit qui mal y pense situation — the only lie is in the interpreter’s mind.
Darrell
TimF, not sure there’s any cure for your willful stupidity. Earlier today you described Saddam Hussein as a “harmless despot” and now this.. That quote I provided above was from the final Senate intelligence committee report (page 45 of the report, page 55 of the pdf) which was “bipartisan” approved.. not any “addendum”. Here’s a quarter, now go and buy yourself a stick of clue, ok?
John S
Maybe there should be a special Darrell’s Plame Flame blog.
Harley
Who’s Darrell?
Darrell
Ok, ok.. But the fact that I answered your question, was why all these accusations started being flung at me for “misdirecting” and “flogging” the issue. You asked a question. I answered it. I wasn’t misdirecting anything. And for that, I got all these bullsh*t accusations from several posters of misdirecting, wanting to change the subject
JG
The wingnut who for two days has almost successfully prevented anyone from discussing any aspect of the Plame case without first dealing with his hysterical rants.
Darrell
For the record, in the post above which MikeS attributes to me, he failed to include the proper blocking and quotes. Not a single word in that quote, “fucking moron” or any of the rest of it was written by me as his post implies. I simply copied and pasted what others had posted.. and I did so without comment
JG
You did so to point out that people were calling you names after JC said to stop.
Darrell
.
JC, you’re an infant. “you did so”.. lighten up. That post, which MikeS attributes to me, I did not write ONE SINGLE WORD OF IT, NOT ONE. I simply copied and pasted what others had posted without comment.
JG
Does that matter? You were still saying something even though none of thse words are originally yours. I wrote ‘you did so’ because you ended you’re post with ‘I did so”. Fucking tool.
Darrell
Whoops, I meant JG, not JC. preview is my friend
Mike S
Darrell did it to highlight the comment for John. It was a tactic hoping to have the comment removed. That was my whole point directed at wittle Dawwells attempt to say he didn’t whine.
Darrell
I own you lefty kooks. You wet your beds at night worrying about me. You are obsessed loons. You bring my name up incessantly in other threads even if I don’t post there.
Discuss.
Mike S
That is too funny. I wonder why Dawwell thinks about what we do in bed. What exactly was Ben alluding to upthread?
Tim F
So quickly you forget the context of our conversation, my dear Darrell. Some fellow named Tony Alva claimed that UN sanctions, and not WMDs, were the reason for our invasion. If not WMDs then the threat came from…what, his conventional army? Guffaw. By Tony’s reasoning we turned away from UN sanctions to attack a UN scofflaw who did not pose a threat to us.
Let me know whether that helps. I can draw it in dirt with a stick if that makes it easier.
ppgaz
Yes, your twists and turns and malapropisms have fried our brains.
I’m filing a lawsuit against you for mental cruelty.
What kind of car do you have?
Mike S
Some fellow named Tony Alva claimed that UN sanctions, and not WMDs,
How the hell does one of the originators of DogTown and skateboarding as we know it have any effect on foreign policy?
Darrell
now that was funny. Mr. Lazarus I’m sure, would be happy file on your behalf pro bono
ppgaz
Discuss this, Darrell:
From DailyKOS:
For the record, it used to be that patriotic honorable Republicans would say this about Rove’s actions and lying:
THAT George Bush FIRED Karl Rove when Rove was caught lying. It is not only that Bush 41 was the smarter, better President, he was also the Bush who had character and integrity. THIS George Bush is not even a shadow of his father.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Darrell, I see you haven’t tried even once to defend the completely dishonest selection of a quote out of context that has been the latest GOP Pod People talking point. Does that means it’s clear to you that CHeney asked the CIA and then through some process that did or did not involve Plame, Wilson ended up going? And that this is not the same thing as Cheney ordering Wilson himself to go? (It is the latest ludicrous excuse that Rove outed Plame to prevent Wilson from claiming that Cheney sent him, while presenting only this dishonestly edited snippet as evidence.)
Since you appear to be giving up on that one, how about this. Apply your standards for lying and dishonesty to the following statement:
Compare and contrast to Wilson’s book and speeches.
Andrew J. Lazarus
I’m sorry, Darrell. I’m not an attorney.
ppgaz
Discuss this, Darrell:
–DailyKOS
Darrell
Mr. Lazarus, sorry for the error.. I’m not sure why I assumed you were an attorney. As for this:
I didn’t have to say a word. Phil Smith in Flame thread #1 shredded you to pieces for me, quoting chapter and verse directly from the Senate intelligence committee final report..
ppgaz
Sorry, here’s the source:
TalkingPoints
Darrell
Speaking of you all you obsessed loons, I see one of your own has even written a poem about me in Darrell Flame thread #1.
Ther is no doubt. I own you leftie kooks. I’m in your head and you can’t get me out… that is, unless you put the barrel in your mouth and gently squeeze the trigger
ppgaz
Uh, no, Darrell. Nobody wrote a poem about you.
That was a song lyric, “The Name Game”.
Laura Branigan gets the credit.
“Banana, fana …”
Catchy, eh?
Nikki
Armando posted this at DailyKos:
Discuss?
ppgaz
Darrell has called Milton Bradley and ordered a Clue[tm].
He’ll be back shortly …………
Bob
Has Jeff Gannon been fitted for cement shoes yet?
p.lukasiak
One thing that I believe is vitally important, and missing so far from John’s “facts” is the context in which Wilson wrote his article.
I went back and looked at postings on various progressive sites, and the simple fact is that even most “progressives” believed in March 2003 that there had to be some truth to Bush’s WMD claims. We knew that Bush had exaggerated and distorted the evidence in order to justify the invasion — but we assumed that there had to be some basis for the unequivocal claims about the existence of stockpiles and active programs to produce WMDs. But by July, it was becoming increasingly obvious that there were no WMDs, and no WMD programs.
Progressives understood what had happened, because we knew that Bush had not been honest about the WMDs; for us it was only a question of how dishonest he had been.
But for the vast majority of Americans (including the mainstream media) who completely bought into the entire “WMD threat” narrative promulgated by the Bush regime, the fact that three months into the war nothing had been found to justify those claims was disorienting in the extreme. Wilson’s NY Times piece was far more important because of when it was published, rather than the specifics of what Wilson actually had to say, because it was a stiff breeze aimed directly at the house of cards that was the Bush administration’s WMD narrative.
At that time, it was crucial to the Bush administration to redirect that breeze, which is why it was necessary to discredit Joe Wilson, and why “his wife” was brought into the picture.
And, thanks to the Downing Street Memos, the indisputable proof that Rove was directly involved in the effort to discredit Wilson by raising the spectre of nepotism by citing his wife’s involvement in the decision to send him to Niger, and the growing public perception that the war in Iraq is not going well, it is equally crucial at this point that Wilson be discredited again—which is why we are having this discussion.
The relevant facts are clear, and beyond dispute, and there really should be no debate about them.
1) Valerie Plame had been a NOC CIA agent working on WMDs.
2) Joe Wilson wrote a column that not merely raised specific questions about Iraq’s “nuclear program”, but raised questions about the entire rationale for the war on Iraq that had been presented to the American people.
3) In order to contain the damage to the administration’s credibility, an effort was made to discredit Joe Wilson, which included disclosing information that Wilson’s trip to Niger was the result of nepotism.
4) As a result of that effort, Valerie Plame’s former status as an NOC CIA agent became public knowledge.
5) The people responsible for the effort to discredit Joe Wilson, and specifically responsible for the effort to use the spectre of nepotism to discredit Wilson, were at the very top of the Bush administration food chain, and included Karl Rove and Lewis Libby.
That’s all we need to know. This isn’t about the specific language of Federal statutes, and whether by parsing the language of that statute we can come up with a legal defense for Karl Rove. And its not certainly not about whether or not every statement ever made by Joe Wilson was bulletproof. (Obviously, those who question Wilson’s credibility aren’t holding Bush administration officials to the same standards… if they were, there’s be no discussion.)
This is about the consequences of the cover-up of one of the biggest and most dishonest public relations campaigns of all times. Rove et.al. wanted people to stop asking questions about the White House and its efforts to “fix the facts and intelligence to fit the policy”, and wanted people to start asking questions about Joe Wilson. Intentionally or not, their efforts damaged America’s national security by disclosing the identity of someone who was deeply, and completely covertly, involved in keeping WMDs out of the hands of terrorists.
Ron
Now the website: http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=7012
states..
In the meantime, despite such pesky facts, the wingnuts also continue to claim that Plame was, in fact, not even a covert asset at the time of her outting.
The BRAD BLOG has learned from several sources, as also confirmed in Time magazine that Plame was indeed a “NOC”, a nonofficial covert agent, the most valuable and secretive of CIA assets.
In regard to whether she was covert or not at the time of her outting by Rove, Bob Novak or whoever his “two senior administration sources” were, Wilson said, “What I can say is, that the CIA looked at the evidence of what had happened and referred the case to the Justice Department. That means that the CIA may think that a crime has been committed.”
____so was she a NOC at that time..you suggest in your talking points she was not. which could just be a lie..
It was started by the Bush spin machine..
and I see it reproduced here.
You do realize there is a reporter in jail for this NON CRIME.
What does that mean?
Andrew J. Lazarus
Darrell, you make less and less sense. Even supposing that Phil Smith had shredded me: how does that relate to dishonest quotation, and to the comparative veracity of wilson and Rumsfeld?
Of course, I beg to differ about the shredding. Smith pointed out what I myself had already conceded, that Wilson had made claims that were at variance with other testimony and were likely not correct. Michael Schiavo has made statements about when he called police that, being internally inconsistent, can not all be correct, either.
The person who got shredded was you trying to palm off the hackery of three GOP senators as the work of a bipartisan commission.
Syl
I believe in the strong horse/weak horse theory of political affiliation. I’m a social liberal but I’m with the Reps all the way for the future.
As soon as you whiny, sniveling, incoherent, perpetually outraged, delusional, weak-kneed fraidy cat liberals grow a backbone instead of frothing at the mouth and pretending you can’t fight terrorists by, you know, actually fighting them, then maybe, just maybe, I might reconsider.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there is NO evidence that Rove has committed a crime. Period. There IS evidence that the Democrats want to get Rove. And, IMHO, there IS evidence that you outraged sniveling liberals don’t know how to choose your battles.
That’s why you lose.
Syl
I believe in the strong horse/weak horse theory of political affiliation. I’m a social liberal but I’m with the Reps all the way for the future.
As soon as you whiny, sniveling, incoherent, perpetually outraged, delusional, weak-kneed fraidy cat liberals grow a backbone instead of frothing at the mouth and pretending you can’t fight terrorists by, you know, actually fighting them, then maybe, just maybe, I might reconsider.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there is NO evidence that Rove has committed a crime. Period. There IS evidence that the Democrats want to get Rove. And, IMHO, there IS evidence that you outraged sniveling liberals don’t know how to choose your battles.
That’s why you lose.
ppgaz
Good lord. Darrell has had a sex change operation.
C’mon man, you didn’t have to switch teams. It’s just a blog.
Mike S
You guys can have morons like syl and Darrell. Personally I’d be embarrassed if they were in my party.
Syl
And we have plukasiak’s findings: FAKE BUT ACCURATE. Yeah right.
(1)The CIA makes several referrals a MONTH. The referral in itself is evidence of nothing.
(2)In the vanity fair profile on Wilson we have this snippet:
“In 1997, Plame moved back to the Washington area, partly because (as was recently reported in The New York Times) the C.I.A. suspected that her name may have been on a list given to the Russians by the double agent Aldrich Ames in 1994.”
(3)And, in an amicus brief filed on behalf of Cooper and Miller the major news organizations signed on to this:
“Plame was not given ‘deep cover’ required of a covert agent…She worked at a desk job at CIA headquarters, where she could be seen traveling to and from, and active at, Langley. She had been residing in Washington — not stationed abroad– for a number of years. As discussed below, the CIA failed to take even its usual steps to prevent publication of her name.”
(4)”fix the facts and intelligence to fit the policy” is not what the memo says. Asshole. You even put it in quote marks as if it’s true. Learn English. Or better, learn the difference between American use of the word ‘fix’ compared to the British usage. And get your quotes right.
“But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.”
A bit different, eh?
You’re fighting an old war, a habit of Democrats, which you lost in November of 2004. Deal with it.
Mike S
Boy I’m going to have fun when this is over.
p.lukasiak
ohmigawd! They’ve cloned Darrell!
Syl, dearest, the fact that the Russians may or may not have found out that Plame was NOC does not mean that the Russians announced her status on the front page of Pravda for every intelligence agency in the world to see.
And although this will probably come as a surprise to you, not every nation in the world has the intelligence service capacity to follow every American who visits their country from their home to their place of employment when they return to the United States.
The fact that Plame was “withdrawn from circulation” because of her possible exposure to Russian intelligence due to Aldrich Ames does not mean that the CIA stopped trying to maintain her cover as an NOC agent.
And as difficult as you may find this to believe, not every person who winds up working at Langley has been a CIA employee from the time they emerged from their mother’s womb—lots of CIA employees had other, non-CIA related jobs before going to work at Langley.
Mike S
Karl Rove has lied about his involvement in this from day 1. What happened to the party of “personal responsibility and morality?”
Syl
ppgaz
“Good lord. Darrell has had a sex change operation”
LOL
Ron
“You do realize there is a reporter in jail for this NON CRIME.
What does that mean?”
Your guess is as good as mine, but, just perhaps, she’s protecting somebody besides Rove. Could be Libby, could be another reporter, could be Plame, could be herself.
Mike S
“Boy I’m going to have fun when this is over.”
No, you’ll just go on to the next non-issue to fight about instead of what really matters. Such a waste of time, political capital, resources, energy, and focus this is!
Do you know, for example, that Zarqawi is having a big dust-up with his sheik and mentor? Barqawi (with a ‘B’) who taught Zarqawi (with a ‘Z’) while both were in the same prison in Jordan said on al Jazeera that all this killing of Iraqi’s is a tragedy and that it hurts Islam and was also against the killing of all those shiites. Zarqawi posted a response saying Barkawi has been taken over by Satan and is hurting the mujahadeen.
Now THAT’s important.
Geoff
Yah, nice try at brutally edumacating us Murkans and all, but it’s just another stale Rovian BS talking point that was thoroughly debunked weeks ago by, er, the Brits. From mediamatters.org:
Get over yourself. And for heaven’s sake, if you profess to admire horses, quit beating dead ones, you aren’t fooling anyone here with this stale crap.
Syl
p.lukasiak
That’s a non-answer if I’ve ever heard one. I’ve never said that it was a known fact that Plame was or ever was undercover, but it was a known fact she worked at the CIA and it seems that the CIA didn’t try to cover up that fact. And that’s all we know (so far, anyway) that Rove revealed to Cooper.
That does not constitute outing in any way.
JG
This is why we’re losing the terrorism fight. Our leadership and the sheep that follow them are of a mindset that you don’t need to understand the enemy. Whether at war or politics you just make an assumption about who you’re dealing with and proceed along a path without deviation. YOu may have noticed that the right wing posters don’t try to understand why the left thinks something. They already assume to know what you’re about since you’re opposing them so they don’t need to listen. Same with terrorism. They think they know why it exists and how to combat it and there’s no talking to them. No facts will sway.
Mike S
Right. While we are fighting a war on terror that has serious WMD implications and a desperate need for intel resourses, outing a CIA operative that is directly inolved in WMD intel is unimportant.
The GOP has become a cult. Nothing the leader does can be wrong because he is divine. Anybody who disagrees with the cult is evil. When the cult tells members what to say they will repeat it like a robot. Any member of the cult who does not agree with everything the cult espouses will be attacked, John Cole has dealt with that. Any news that hurts the cult will be attacked with a vengence. Threats will be made, like Peter Kings last night, in order to quell any dissent.
p.lukasiak
Syl, Syl, Syl….
Valerie Plame’s next door neighbors didn’t know that she worked for the CIA. It wasn’t a “known fact”. It may have been a fact that, were someone to fully investigate Valerie Plame, would have been obvious…. but the whole FUCKING POINT of being NOC is to have people think there is NO FUCKING REASON to think you are working for the CIA.
Get it?
JG
Could this be bigger than just outing Plame? They outed a firm, a CIA front. Assets may have been burned by this that we don’t know about yet. Outing her may have had larger repercussions than just her loss of NOC status.
Darrell
Tell us JG, what has the left proposed in how to better fight terrorism?.. scream “Bush lied, people died”? check. Exaggerated civilian casualties? check. Obsess over the treatment of terrorists in Gitmo? check.
The left has forfeited their right to be taken seriously in the WOT by virtue of the fact that they have no serious plan, only insincere partisan sniping from the sidelines.. the left is undermining, not helping the fight against terrorism
Doubt me? then tell me what the hell has the left proposed to help us better fight terrorisism other than whine about ‘why do the terrorists hate us so’?
Syl
Goeff
“Get over yourself. And for heaven’s sake, if you profess to admire horses, quit beating dead ones, you aren’t fooling anyone here with this stale crap”
Then quit beating yours. If there was no evidence or belief of WMD then why this statement also from the memo:
“For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary.”
And what the hell is wrong, anyway, with taking known intelligence and making a case with it? Lawyers do it all the time.
JG
How about not leaving Afghanistan in february of 02 to start the buildup to war in Iraq. CATCH THE FUCKING PEOPLE WHO HIT US!!!! Only idiots think you combat Islamic fanaticism by INVADING AND OCCUPPYING A MUSLIM COUNTRY.
The left was on board the war in Afghanistan in a big way. You didn’t hear a peep out of them until Bush left without catching Bin Laden, Al Zwahiri or Mullah Omar.
Are you saying there is no value in knowing why they do the things they do?
p.lukasiak
Could this be bigger than just outing Plame? They outed a firm, a CIA front. Assets may have been burned by this that we don’t know about yet. Outing her may have had larger repercussions than just her loss of NOC status.
BINGO!
One of the questions that appear on visa applications is place of employment. Other NOC agents used the same firm as Valerie Plame — and in outing her, they outed her firm and anyone who had ever listed her firm as a place of employment.
The potential damage is staggering. Most countries simply don’t have the capacity to investigate every American businessperson who shows up in their country — and a very small percentage of those businesspeople were NOC agents who were probably “running” sources within other countries. In some cases, those sources were probably blown — but more importantly, others have been lost because their “agent runners” have had their covers blown. Others have probably been lost simply because of paranoia — if they can’t trust the US government to keep the names of their secret agents out of the newspapers, cooperating with a secret agent becomes much more dangerous.
But to the wingnuts, none of that is important here. All that matters is that if someone wanted to follow Valerie Plame, they would eventually discover she spent time at the CIA.
Syl
p.
I mean really. Her neighbors didn’t know? WTF kind of argument is that? The press corps certainly knew (can’t you read?). Does the CIA have to announce to the world that Valery works for the CIA so EVERYBODY knows instead of just the DC in crowd to show that it wasn’t a very big secret? Dear Val even told her boyfriend. Show me how, from the known facts in this case, she was outed as an undercover agent by Rove.
Mike S
“While we are fighting a war on terror that has serious WMD implications and a desperate need for intel resourses, outing a CIA operative that is directly inolved in WMD intel is unimportant.”
It’s very important but we don’t know WHO did it. And we’re pretty damn sure that outing her wasn’t a crime. We’ll know that eventually.
And why does the left care so much about any wmd ‘experts’ at the CIA when they got everything wrong in the first place. Thankfully the liberals are no longer in charge because it was crap like the Torecelli nonsense that weakened our CIA assets so much and gave us so FEW CIA resources working on WMD issues. NOW you guys get all huffy. Pfeh.
JG
We’re DEALING with root causes in the Middle East. Your side is giving us politically correct solutions to the Islamists in our midst.
JG
After one post you put me on the left? Exactly how are we dealing with root causes?
Stormy70
So all you libs quit reading the NYT when they severly damaged national security by outing the shell companies the CIA is using right now in the War on Terror? When I googled the article, this Indian paper came up first. The NYT’s little article sure flew around the world, didn’t it?
Since this is the Flame thread, I will post some crazy speculation: I think Judy Miller’s protecting Valerie Plame. I think Plame has been the one leaking out of the CIA.
Flame On!
PS Syl and Darrell: Word!
Sojourner
And your side got us bogged down in a war that had nothing to do with 9/11.
Asshole.
Stormy70
Ah, your erudite response is typical of your argument stylings. I will have to rate the effort as subpar, for lack of imagination.
Sojourner
Something you can never be accused of. Your posts are positively delusional.
Syl
Okay, not directed at me, but I love this:
We left Afghanistan? Alert the press! What we DID take away from Afghanistan to fight in Iraq were some assets like translators. Other than that, we CAN walk and chew gum at the same time.
How many fronts did we fight in WWII? Huh? Hey, we got this big fight going on at Guadalcanal…can’t spare any troops for Europe.
They’re dead, Jim.
Okay, not fair. But we have additional assets stomping Islamist nutballs all over the world. We’ve decimated al Qaeda’s senior and mid-level leadership. Getting Osama which I want as badly as you would NOT end Islamic terrorism. (I want, almost more than Osama, that oily blob of a spokesman of his.) I think many were under the impression that getting Osama would mean ‘War’s over, everybody back to flying kites now’. Al Qaeda is an umbrella organization of people with the same friggin’ totalitarian philosophy. What part of that do you not understand? We’re fighting a worldwide movement that depends on hundreds if not thousands of clerics preaching hate and an end to the West. And tens of thousands of willing ears. It’s not just about one organization and one man.
It, no doubt, has it’s down side. But leaving Saddam in place was not an option. The sanctions box was crumbling and his ties to terrorism meant future trouble. Saddam even said in an interview that though he may not reach us, an individual Arab might. We couldn’t do anything else in the region with Saddam sitting there. He had to go.
It’s the best of a bad lot of choices. If the democracy experiment works out, future generations everywhere will benefit. If it doesn’t, at least we gave the Arab world a chance because if nothing changes and the swamp doesn’t dry up, the future is something I don’t want to contemplate for anyone on this planet.
The terror attacks against us and Americans abroad were escalating. After 9/11 it became clear that it was only going to get much much worse so we had to fight back with everything we have.
We know why they hate us. They tell us all the time.
We have to convince them (or get other muslims to convince them–Iraq) that their hate is one thing, but it should consist of talk not action. That crossing the line from hate to slaughter is not something helpful to them.
Sojourner
We pulled troops out of Afghanistan, including the ones who were supposedly on the trail of Bin Laden. Alert the press!!! Except they already knew that. Apparently you didn’t.
Maybe we can walk and chew gum at the same time but in case you haven’t noticed, things aren’t going well in Iraq and Afghanistan is starting to get worrisome.
Sojourner
Huh? Hussein was contained. About the only thing he could manage was to play chicken in the no fly zone. So to take out a semi-retired dictator, we have spent billions and billions, and lost the lives of more than 1750 Americans. And Bin Laden is still on the loose, laughing his ass off. What a deal.
Sojourner
Are you proposing to reinstate the draft, like they did in WWII? If not, how do you intend to compensate for the significant shortage of military personnel? Another side effect of the unfortunate Iraq war.
JG
What terrorist ties did Saddam have. I know he offered cash to idiots who blew themselves up in Israel but what else? What use would Islamic radicals have for a secular muslim leader?
Andrew J. Lazarus
Syl, you’re close but not quite on Judy Miller going to jail to cover up for Valerie Plame (who somehow used her NOC skills and snuck into the White House, since the way they nabbed Miller was from subpoenaed phone records).
Miller is covering up for her contacts in the International Jewish Conspiracy.
My evidence: Miller is Jewish.
Weak as this is, it’s better than the evidence you presented for your claim. Actually, you have anti-evidence, since Miller is an acknowledged conduit for Ahmed Chalabi, and he is persona molto non grata in Langley, making Miller a very odd choice for Plame even if she did wish to leak.
Syl
Stormy70
::waving hi::
Makes sense to me. Will we ever know?
Sourjourner
You’ve got a little box around your head. Enlarge it a bit, cut some holes in it too, and maybe you’ll begin to see what’s better known as the ‘Big Picture’.
And, further, I won’t comment on your cherry picking of statements to ‘refute’. It’s obvious you’re a nitpicker and have no friggin’ clue what this war is all about, what we’re doing, how we’re doing. Spend some time reading Islamist writing or even, gasp, Iraqi blogs, instead of Kos and friends. Maybe that little box of yours might grow.
Vladi G
Every time I think Darrell is one of the stupidest people alive, I read a Stormy post that makes Darrell look like a Nobel Prize winner.
ppgaz
Uh, Syl? The following is MSNBC, that noted foam-at-the-mouth radical leftist website:
Longshot
Violation of National Security through Disclosure of Classified Information.
That. Is the issue.
If a political advisor for a Democratic President, cleared to review classified information under a federal security clearance, revealed the identity (for ANY REASON) of a covert CIA operative, whose identity if known would reveal to those in the know, among foreign or independent intelligence organizations, the existence of an intelligence network whose aims are counter to their own, thereby putting that intelligence network (which works for US) at risk of being subverted, disrupted, its members imprisoned and/or executed, would you condemn such a political advisor and demand his resignation and testimony under oath subject to perjury sanctions?
Even if the political advisor did so in order to subvert and distract from a deliberate effort to gain public support for the invasion of a country whose leadership stands in the way of American strategic dominance in a critical region of the globe?
Even if the political advisor did so in order to discredit the testimony of a family member of the covert intelligence operative whose statements run counter to prominent statements by the Secretaries of Defense and State, National Security Advisor, and even Vice President and President of this Democratic administration?
What would you think of the argument put forward by champions of said political advisor that he didn’t violate national security because he didn’t actually use the operative’s name but referred to said operative as the spouse of another person? Would you (rightly) point out that polygamy is widely practiced in only one state of the U.S. and even that illegally?
I could go on. But you get my drift.
Syl
JG
This article lays it out
I’m surprised (not) by your lack of curiosity. You may have asked the question, but you do not want to know or believe the answer. If you were curious at all you would already know that it was more than payments to Palistinian suicide bombers.
Not unlike the use they make of Assad in Syria. Same deal…baathist government.
Anyway there’s always that ‘but a single Arab might reach you’ threat Saddam made if you wish to sleep easier at night.
Longshot
Oh yeah: “Longtime spouse of reader, short-time reader myself, first-time poster, YOU RUUUUUUUULE JOHN COOOOOOLLLE!!!!”
;)
Just a little hot air for Balloon Juice ;)
Longshot
Oh yeah: “Longtime spouse of reader, short-time reader myself, first-time poster, YOU RUUUUUUUULE JOHN COOOOOOLLLE!!!!”
;)
Just a little hot air for Balloon Juice ;)
Longshot
Oh yeah: “Longtime spouse of reader, short-time reader myself, first-time poster, YOU RULE JOHN COLE!”
;)
Just a little hot air for Balloon Juice ;)
Sojourner
You’re right, I have no friggin clue what this war is about. And it turns out that neither do the majority of the American public. But I do know how we’re doing and the reality is the Bushies are getting ready to cut and run. Next year is an election year and they’re already letting the American public know that the pullout will be starting om ’06. God knows the Iraqi military won’t be ready to stabilize a country that the dominant military power in the world could not accomplish.
So what was this war about? WMD? Nope. The flypaper theory? London disproved that one. Bringing democracy to Iraq? That won’t be accomplished by next year. So what is the answer? Be sure to share it with the American public ‘cuz they don’t get it either.
That’s assuming, of course, that I’m not being too nitpicky.
Syl
ppgaz
Wow! Such a long post based on one poll number. I’m in awe.
Longshot
In the end someone may or may not be indicted. Right now it’s mostly politically spinning. I know where my money is, and isn’t where your’s is.
Sojourner
Wow! Such a lame response to a thoughtful response. I’m not in awe.
Syl
Sojourner
The answers are all around you. The problem is you don’t believe them. It’s snark. All the time, snark, with people like you. So you giggle with your friends and lose a chance to learn and let others know what you’ve learned.
London disproved nothing. British citizens have been killed or captured in both Afghanistan and Iraq. What it DID prove is that the politically correct stance of looking the other way while Islamists in their midst preach hatred and incite violence got them in a heap of trouble.
Look up Da’wa too, while you’re at it.
Longshot
*blink blink* Poll number?
What poll is that? And in what way does it modify my model?
” In the end someone may or may not be indicted. Right now it’s mostly politically spinning. I know where my money is, and isn’t where your’s is. ”
What is this money of which you speak?
Follow the bouncing ball. Pretend for a moment you’re on a squaaaaaarrrre planet and there’s a Democrat in the White House. You can even call him Phil Phlinton if you like. I’m not even, rabid liberal that my one post of substance cements me in your mind as being, asserting that My Hero Democratic President Phil Phlinton is central to the overriding issue of a VIOLATION OF NATIONAL SECURITY.
But rather My Hero Democratic President Phil Phlinton’s political advisor Ted Blein. Or Spike O’Curry. Or even Jorge Stjepanovich. Or any other prominent political associate of My Hero Democratic President Phil Phlinton’s acquaintance.
Are you suggesting I *should* care about the political affiliation of the President whose political advisor revealed the identity of a covert intelligence operative and make damn sure that the President is not of my own party before ploughing ahead with my irresponsibly partisan demand that the VIOLATION OF NATIONAL SECURITY be fully investigated and the implicated parties forced to testify under oath?
There was a VIOLATION OF NATIONAL SECURITY. I (along with more than a few others) want to know HOW IT HAPPENED. Was it on accident? Is the Executive Branch, no matter what party is in charge of it, in the habit of retaining the security clearances of those who have demonstrably violated the conditions of their access to this information? Isn’t that something we should work to preserve no matter WHICH party is in charge? If one takes the cotton balls out of ones ears, one might notice that BOTH parties can agree on at least ONE thing: America needs a STRONG INTELLIGENCE-GATHERING SLASH ESPIONAGE CAPABILITY IN ORDER TO EFFECTIVELY FIGHT TERROR GROUPS NOT INHERENTLY TIED TO ANY COUNTRY OR REGION.
Taking the cotton balls out of one’s ears can work wonders for one’s ability to better communicate with one’s peers.
I don’t know if anyone will be indicted. But if someone did in fact knowingly reveal the identity of a covert intelligence operative with a working relationship with a functioning arm of America’s intelligence network during a time of our greatest need to preserve such a network, I hope they are indicted, convicted, and sent to federal pound-me-in-the-cake prison for a long long time.
My money is on the party who violated national security being caught out, convicted, and punished for the crime of violating national security. Are you certain that’s not where your money is?
Oh yeah, and just for the sake of posterity, and at risk of having the entire text above ignored, what was that poll you were talking about?
ppgaz
Syl, I’ve seen your work. I know where I’ve seen it before.
BAM! KAPOW! SMACK!
Comic books. You’re a comic version of the Rove-Mehlman noise machine.
Good for you.
One poll? You might want to look at the general trend of the country’s mood lately. Like I said, it’s over.
American politics is, in the long run, dominated by an inert middle, and in the long run, prone to slow-motion change. The trend I’m talking about isn’t a sudden fluke. And the forces driving it are relentless. Your Potatohead President is a one-note drummer. “Stay the course” is going to be his epitaph, one way or the other. He can’t change. But the voters can. Ain’t this a great country?
ppgaz
You’re in awe? You’re in something.
ppgaz
Darrell, discuss this:
Valerie Plame_story
This is the person whose outing, according to turd apologists at Faux News and elsewhere, took “guts.”
I think we know who had the real guts in this case.
ppgaz
Darrell, discuss this:
Valerie Plame_story
This is the person whose outing, according to turd apologists at Faux News and elsewhere, took “guts.”
I think we know who had the real guts in this case.
update:
Mike S
I love it when people whip out Stephen Hayes as if the state dept and dod didn’t say he was full of shit. The guys a hack but as long as he spouts the cult’s line people like syl will repeat it like a moonie. But then since Rev Moon, the Messiah to his followers, has helped create this cult with the Washington Times.
It’s quite sad. My step father, a Rep since Ike, says the GOP is now a joke. But then he is someone who thinks for himself unlike the drooling cultists prevalent here.
scs
What I’m wondering about is why they sent this Joe Wilson guy to check on the uranium story. Deosn’t the CIA have a team of people in place already, spies and moles and such, to check on this kind of stuff ? Instead they were like, “gee, we have to check on something pretty important, who can we send?” And some lady says, “uhhh, well you can send my husband! He used to hang out there and go to cool wine and cheese parties there a lot – maybe he can find out!”
That just sounds laughable to me. Maybe there was some sort of conspiracy behind it, who knows.
scs
And Mike S, what makes you say Stephen Hayes is a hack? I saw him on TV and he seems pretty knowledgable to me; however, I don’t really kow much about him cause I haven’t seen much info on him in the media. Maybe you can provide some article reference to suppport your claim.
scs
This is a Stephen Hayes article I saw on here: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/696twoqc.asp
I don’t know, sounds pretty well sourced and interesting to me. Here are some excerpts.
* Saddam Hussein hosted regular conferences for terrorists in Baghdad throughout the 1990s. Mark Fineman, a reporter for the Los Angeles Times, reported on one such gathering in an article published January 26, 1993.
* Abdul Rahman Yasin is an Iraqi who mixed the chemicals for the bomb used in the first World Trade Center attack on February 26, 1993…. He fled to Iraq on March 5,1993, with the help of an Iraqi Intelligence operative working under cover in the Iraqi Embassy in Amman, Jordan.
*The Clinton administration cited an “understanding” between Iraq and al Qaeda in its 1998 indictment of Osama bin Laden. “Al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.”
* The 9/11 Commission reports that Iraq and al Qaeda had a series of “friendly contacts” that did not appear to have developed into a “collaborative operations relationship.” The final report provides details of meetings between senior Iraqi Intelligence officials and al Qaeda terrorists throughout the spring and summer of 1998 and indicates that “Iraqi official offered bin Laden a safe haven in Iraq.”
* Abu Musab al Zarqawi traveled to Iraq in May 2002. He lived in Baghdad with the knowledge–and perhaps sponsorship–of the Iraqi regime. A passage from p. 337 of the Senate Intelligence Committee report cites a CIA report called Iraqi Support for Terrorism: “A variety of reporting indicates that senior al Qaeda terrorist planner al Zarqawi was in Baghdad [redacted].
* More recently, Hudayfa Azzam, the son of bin Laden’s longtime mentor Abdullah Azzam, told Agence France Presse that the Iraqi regime worked closely with al Qaeda in Iraq before the war.
p.lukasiak
What I’m wondering about is why they sent this Joe Wilson guy to check on the uranium story. Deosn’t the CIA have a team of people in place already, spies and moles and such, to check on this kind of stuff ?
you know that you are dealing with someone who needs to do a good deal of catching up when they ask this kind of stupid question.
But, the short answer is “no”, they don’t have a “team in place” everywhere. If you had any familiarity with the subject, you would know that there has been a great deal of concern over the CIA’s lack of human “assets” throughout the world.
That being said, even before Wilson was sent to Niger, there was a good deal of skepticism with both the State Dept and the CIA with regard to the claim that Niger had sold yellowcake to Iraq.
Instead they were like, “gee, we have to check on something pretty important, who can we send?” And some lady says, “uhhh, well you can send my husband! He used to hang out there and go to cool wine and cheese parties there a lot – maybe he can find out!”
Snark is no substitute for knowledge. Wilson went to Niger because he didn’t just “hang out there”, he was a professional diplomat. He went to investigate the claim that yellowcake had been sold to Iraq, and determined that the safeguards and procedures involved in mining and shipping yellowcake made it absolutely impossible for the sale to have taken place without anyone—especially the consortium that actually ran the Niger mines—knowing about it.
And guess what? It turned out that Wilson was right!
The real “story” that Wilson was telling wasn’t about Niger and yellowcake, it was about how the Bush administration was taking seriously the most dubious and questionable intelligence on Iraq, and how the administration ignored all the warning signs that it was basing its conclusions on obvious bullshit.
The “yellowcake sale” story should never have reached the Office of the Vice President—-the “normal” means of getting intelligence to upper level administration officials is through the established intelligence services. But Cheney and his minions established the Office of Special Plans that stovepiped pure crap to the White House and OVP, which then would draw “conclusions” makes on the amount of bullshit it had been handed.
Defense Guy
He went to Niger to investigate the claim that Iraq had been trying to buy Uranium. He cams back and said ‘nope, wasn’t sold’. Which is great, but it doesn’t answer the question he was sent to answer.
BTW – all your base are belong to us
Andrew J. Lazarus
Hayes was the print mouthpiece for Doug Feith and his Office of Special Plans, whose task, as set up by Cheney, was to “stovepipe” all rumors and falsehoods about Iraq, so we could get our war on. The statement about Zarqawi living in Baghdad in 2002 has, for example, been retracted, as far as I know; I think it was based on a Chalabist (i.e., lying) source.
scs
Now, now p.lukasiak, there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers. Yes there probably was a lack of manpower at the CIA, but surely they had at least someone assigned to the continent of Africa working on intelligence matters there, who maybe had a bit more experience than an ambassador. And you still haven’t explained why an ambassador, whose main job it is to meet and greet and go to parties, all of a sudden becomes 007 for a very important issues. I don’t think having ‘contacts’ is enough. If that’s the case, maybe we can cut down on the CIA spy force and instead make it twofer covert agent/ambassador position. If the CIA is turning to ambassadors to do spy work, we really do need to speed up recruitment, and fast.
And how did this Joe Wilson go about finding out this kind of assuredly top secret info? Did he just go down there and ask his ‘contacts’, “Hey Man, you guys been doing any illegal stuff with Iraq lately? ” reply -“Oh noooo, Joe, We would NEVER do anything like that.” Joe -“Okay, sounds good to me, I’ll write an editorial on it.” Or did he break into government buildings in black ski hats, roping over walls, Mission Impossible style, to steal secret documents? It justs sounds ludicrous that one man who has NO experince in these matters is the source. But, hey, maybe he’s a stealthy guy, who knows.
And Andrew, yes that does sound a little suspicious about Hayes and does take his credibility down a little. However, it doesn’t completely discount what he says. He either is well sourced and factual or not. So far what I read that he wrote seems credible.
Sojourner
Then why can’t you put your hands around them?
All you’ve produced so far is a whole lot of bluster.
Vladi G
He wasn’t “007”. It wasn’t a secret mission. If you can’t even understand this basic fact, then you really have a lot of catching up to do.
Mike S
Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV
Ambassador Wilson served as Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for African Affairs at the National Security Council from June 1997 until July 1998. In that capacity he was responsible for the coordination of U.S. policy to the 48 countries of sub-Saharan Africa, He was one of the principal architecs of President Clinton’s historic trip to Africa in March 1998.
Ambassador Wilson was the Political Advisor to the Commander-in-Chief of United States Armed Forces, Europe, 1995-1997. He served as the U.S. Ambassador to the Gabonese Republic and to the Democratic Republic of Sao Tome and Principe from 1992 to 1995. From 1998 to 1991, Ambassador Wilson served in Baghdad, Iraq as Deputy Chief of Mission at the U.S. Embassy. During ”Desert Shield” he was the acting Ambassador and was responsible for the negotiations that resulted in the release of several hundred American hostages. He was the last official American to meet with Saddam Hussein before the launching of ”Desert Storm.”
Ambassador Wilson was a member of the U.S. Diplomatic Service from 1976 until 1998. His early assignments included Niamey, Niger, 1976-1978; Lome, Togo, 1978-79; the State Department Brueau of African Affairs, 1979-1981; and Pretoria, South Africa, 1981-1982.
In 1982, he was appointed Deputy Chief of Mission in Bujumbura, Burundi. In 1985-1986, he served in the offices of Senator Albert Gore and the House Majority Whip, Representative Thomas Foley, as an American Political Science Association Congressional Fellow. He was Deputy Chief of Mission in Brazzaville, Congo, 1986-88, prior to his assignment to Baghdad.
Ambassador Wilson was raised in California and graduated from the University of California at Santa Barbara in 1972. He is a graduate of the Senior Seminar (1972), the most advanced International Affairs training offered by the U.S. Government. He speaks fluent French.
Ambassador Wilson holds the Department of Distinguished Service Award, the Department of State Superior and Meritorious Honor Awards, the University of California, Santa Barbara Distinguished Alumnus Award, and the American Foreign Service Association William R. Rivkin Award. Additionally, he has been decorated as a Commander in the Order of the Equatorial Star by the Government of Gabon and as an Admiral in the El Paso Navy by the El Paso County Commissioners.
Totally unqualified for a trip to an African nation.
prob
Actually, for once Darrell is correct. After a brief but frustrating and ultimately too annoying exchange with him I decided I would not participate any further over here. But I wrote the poem as a parting shot…the least I could do after being called a liar for pointing out an obvious misrepresentation of his. It sits as the 2nd to last post on Darrell’s 1st Plame Flame Thread.
Don’t worry Darrell, I will not be lying awake at nights thinking about you…that’s why I wrote and posted the piece, to cleanse your miserable presence from my thoughts. You won’t hear back from me, regardless of whatever tripe you spew in response to this note. I promise this, and unlike some folks I try to make it a habit to be honest and keep my word.
Have a nice life…
My sympathies to those who continue to engage this cretin.
‘bye
Vladi G
Don’t suguarcoat it. It was a lie. You pointed out a lie, the he repeated over and over and over again. Darrell is simply a liar.
ppgaz
Well, he’s OUR cretin.
Thanks to his indefatigable schedule of posting, his consistent alignment with rightwing talking points, his stubborn refusal to see anything in terms other than right v. left, his willingness to turn to moral jelly one minute when apolgizing for a wingnut outrage, and then do the stiff-spine thing the next as it suits him, he is the perfect representative of the Potatohead Government and its bible-thumping, chest-beating hordes.
Darrell IS the wingnut right around here, and I think he represents it very well, and deserves our respect.
scs
Well Mike, all that about Wilson does sound impressive. I guess my problem is not really understanding the whole method behind espionage, or since you stated it wasn’t a secret mission, then just the fact finding mssion in this case. Yes, he sounds like a knowledgable guy, but he is not a secret agent or even a private detective for that matter.
Again I wonder, how on earth can one guy, as impressive as he may be, find out this info on uranium sales? Obviously if Niger did want to do this sale, its not something they would want to publicize, even to a nifty guy like Joe. Even if he had friends in the government, how many would want to spill the beans? They could be severely punished if found out. Maybe he led an espionage team perhaps? Maybe he bribed people? Maybe Niger didn’t really even keep it a secret- Joe was free to get all the info he wanted on it. I don’t know. Just can’t picture how you can really disprove or prove that without some good old fashioned espionage, as only a few people in the governemnt would know about it. The last I heard, England still stands behind the info on the proposed sale.
scs
And by the way, the language of the left on here is very typical. I see mostly the lefties on here calling the righties names, getting basically hysterical and insulting if someone doesn’t agree with them, not so much the other way around. That seems to be a trend I see among my friends and the media as well. I know the lefties are upset at losing ground in the electorate but I think it’s best to stick to the facts and let your arguments do the talking, not the insults, otherwise you will lose still more ground.
(Disclaimer – consider myself a centrist still -however moving right fast – so don’t bother calling me a partisan hack – yet)
Mike S
scs
First off Wilson had many contacts in the Niger Govt as well as the former minister of mines.
As far as names go I am sure that if you had been called a traitor, anti-American and countless other crap things for more than a decade you would be pretty pissed off yourself. Or just read the screeds by Darrell. When’s the last time you listened to Rush, Hannity, Coulter…? And head on back 11 years and read Newt’s GOPAC Memo to see the beginnings of all of this. Or My Post about the death of Bipartisanship.
Mike S
BTW. I’m center left but appear to be moving farther left because the GOP is on a freight train to the right.
scs
I don’t listen to Rush, never got into the talk radio thing, but I have seen Hannity and Coulter on Fox. I don’t think Hannity, on TV anyway, is all that bad. He pretty much sticks to the arguments. He can stick to a point over and over, asking it in an aggressive, maybe slighty mean, way to his guests, but I think that’s okay cause it’s still sticking to the debate. He rarely insults outright. Coulter can get nasty, true, but sometimes she says it in a mocking way, attempting humor I suppose. Newt Gingrich has not been nasty on TV for a long time now. But these three are the MOST extreme of the party.
Yes they can get nasty I suppose, but its not the same shrill, almost hysterical way the Dems are doing it now. Righties at least seem to be in control of themselves when they are getting nasty and at least make at attempt to pull out some facts. I think the Dems should remember Clinton (Bill), of whom I was a fan. When was the last time you ever heard Clinton getting down and dirty (in public anyway)?
scs
Also, Mike, yes I already agreed Wilson had contacts. But no one has advanced a theory on how contacts = information.
Having a large rolodex just doesn’t seem enough to me to get this super sensitive, I’m sure secret, information.
scs
Sorrry, one more post add on. I know you (Mike) said something about Wilson checking out the safeguards at the uranium mine. That’s all fine and good, but safeguards are only as good as the people who run them. I’m guessing if you have a few crooked mine owners, workers and/or a secret deal with the government, no safeguards can prevent a sale, and such a situation would be very hard to uncover.
Mike S
They can “get nasty?” Sorry, when you call an entire party traitors it’s a bit more than nasty. I hate to say that if you can defend Coulter, Hannity and the rest than there really is no hope for you. These people wanted Clinton’s head on a pike for lying about a blowjob and defend Rove for lying about what has been going on, going so far as to call him a hero.
scs
I think Hannity and Coulter are both entertaining, yes. Whats good about them, Coulter especially, is that she doesn’t really try to hide the fact that she’s nasty. Whereas the current Dems try the holier-than-thou routine. I don’t agree with Hannity and Coulter totally with their opinion on Clinton, so what. I think Clinton was wrong for what he did too. Doesn’t mean I still didn’t like him for his good qualities. I think Rove should probably step down for what he did. Anyway, my point is, you don’t have to always agree with a pundit to appreciate that they are good at what they do. Hearing different points of views is what keeps it interesting.
ppgaz
Uh, I think if there was any question as to whether scs is living in a reality-based world, that last post settles it.
Hannity, and Coulter, for crissakes.
Here’s the thing, folks: There are people out there who will believe anything, and I mean, anything. It does no good to try to have a dialogue with them.
In other words, you are entertained by crazy people slinging shit at the wall. Good for you, scs, but save the condescending and patronizing crap for somebody else. Ann Coulter is a crazy, destructive bitch. Period.
You call it “name-calling.” Call it whatever you want, it’s the truth. The truth, as the saying goes, is an asbolute defense.
scs
In other words, you are entertained by crazy people slinging shit at the wall.
Well ppgaz,sometimes I AM entertained by YOUR undertaking of the previously mentioned, but not all that often. Keep trying though.