According to this NBC/Wall Street journal poll, Bush’s job performance rating has dropped slightly, as well as public perceptions that he is honest:
The survey, which was conducted from July 8-11 among 1,009 adults, and which has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, finds that respondents, by a 49 percent-to-46 percent margin, disapprove of Bush
Frank
I don’t think you can excuse the Republicans that easily. Sandy Berger didn’t get much love from the Democrats when it looked like he might have commited a serious national security crime. Note that the Republican talking points attacking Wilson include outright lies that have long since been debunked. (i.e. The claim that Wilson said Cheney sent Wilson on the Niger mission.)
You can’t blame some general malaise of politics. This is all your party.
John Cole
I am not excusing them, I am telling you why they are behaving the way they are- because of the knee-jerk opposition to the wild claims circulating the left.
Look- When 365gay.com is publishing demands from Stonewall Democrats that Karl Rove be fired, you can’t expect Republicans to just sit back and take it.
And, for the record, you are just flat out wrong about the Democrats and Berger. Tehre was a widespread attempt to downplay what he had done, both in the Beltway and in the blogosphere.
Doug
As I mentioned in a comment in another thread, I’m sort of tired of the all-Rove, all-the-time commentary going on in the blogosphere. But not so tired that I won’t add to it.
The Republican efforts to duck the Rove scandal remind me of the old sea god Nereus. To perform his 11th task, Hercules had to find the garden of the Hesperides. Only Nereus seemed to know its location. Hercules began to wrestle Nereus to compel the information only to have Nereus turn from an old man into a young man then no longer a man, but a huge and slippery seal, which all but succeeded in plunging into the sea.
Hercules held on until the seal also was exhausted. Then the seal changed into a gigantic crab, the crab into a crocodile, the crocodile into a mermaid, the mermaid into a sea-serpent, the sea-serpent into an albatross, the albatross into an octopus, the octopus into a mass of sea-weed, which was the hardest to hold of all. But the sea-weed turned back into the old man again. All of his shapes exhausted, Nereus told Hercules where the garden of the Hesperides were.
Efforts to explain why Rove isn’t a bad guy, and why Bush shouldn’t show him the door shift almost as quickly as rationales for invading Iraq. It’s probably too much to ask that we keep the pressure on long enough to wear them down to the point of simply telling the truth.
Defense Guy
I agree with John, and I really like what the Republican response should be. In addition, we know, based on the fact that Novak has stated that Rove was NOT his source, that there is at least one more person involved.
We also know that the prosecutor has said that in all likelihood it does not appear that Rove broke the law. Which makes the difference between Rove and Berger clear.
Anderson
Honestly, I’m staying agnostic on whether Rove broke any laws. It’s just evident that SOMEONE did, and that someone should go to jail. I could care less whether it’s Rove or Hillary.
Frank
I followed the Obsidian Wings debate on Sandy pretty closely and all the Dems (pretty much) were saying if he did the crime he should do the crime (paraphrase)
I get that the Republicans feel they should oppose anything the Dems propose right now. I think its clear the Dems don’t behave the same way, at least not to the level the Republicans take it. I think they are starting to learn they have to, but the Dems just aren’t there (most of them) yet. FWIW
Doug
So it’s the law and the law alone that provides your moral yardstick? If I break the law by, say, speeding, and the other guy, oh I don’t know, tells his mother malicious lies while she’s on her death bed; I’m morally inferior because I’m the law breaker?
I guess I don’t envy your clarity.
ppgaz
1. I don’t know how the Rove-Plame thing will turn out, but until something actually happens, like an indictment, it’s a creature of the blogosphere and rather useless right now. As a diehard liberal, I really don’t care whether Rove gets fired. That would be one of those symbolic things like Rather getting fired … it changes nothing. If there’s an indictment, then the damage to Bush gets to be serious. But the right will spin its way out of that … they already have the washing machine set to HyperSpin anyway on this, so what’s the diff?
No question, though, that the BushRove attack on Wilson and his wife are an ugly episode. If this administration were not just an endless series of ugly episodes, people might notice the Plame thing more than they do. But ugly is now commonplace with these people. Sad, but true.
2. I think it is a serious mistake to associate the Plame matter with Bush’s “honesty.” The honesty issue goes bone deep, and the Plame story is barely a skin rash, on a patient that has gangrene. Bush has no honesty, period.
3. Dems (my team) are shrieking about this because its a long hot summer and baseball has been pretty boring so far. We’ll shriek about something else as soon as George steps on his dick again, which will be any day now, I’m sure.
Steve
The over-the-top argument that “Rove should get a medal” seems crafted to make liberals’ heads explode – “Is there anything these people won’t say?!??!” Just as with Rove’s provocative comments about liberals made a few weeks ago, though, these statements seem to be made with full knowledge of the effect they will produce.
The likelihood is that this thing goes deeper (not necessarily higher, we’ll see) than Rove, and that the prosecutor is looking into a lot more than whether one guy violated IIPA. If the way this thing ends is that Rove is forced to resign, that’s very much a win for the Republicans – the damage is limited to one fall guy, Rove isn’t exactly a household name in Peoria, and Rove is accustomed to doing his job from outside the White House anyway. Rove’s resignation would mean nothing by the time the next elections come around, and Bush would look like a standup guy for getting rid of the leaker, just as he promised.
I think the “Rove as hero” argument is designed to drive the Democrats screaming insane and to distract them from focusing on the issue of where else this thing goes. After all, according to the WaPo, an anonymous source claims that two administration officials called six reporters about Plame, for no other reason than pure revenge on Wilson. Is this true? Who are the people involved, and who knew about it? Nobody is asking these questions, the dialogue is all about “is Rove a hero or not” and “is Wilson a liar or not.” Fortunately, behind the scenes the prosecutor keeps trucking on, the same thing that has kept this story alive all along.
Defense Guy
So you are pro imprisonment for moral lapses when no crime was committed then Doug? Or is there some other snark you were trying to get accross.
I don’t envy the fact that you are allowing your patisanship to get in the way of the law. In fact it seems highly immoral to want to crucify someone before the investigation is even completed.
Sojourner
Hardly wild claims. The reality is Rove has a long history of dirty tricks and smears, even against those within his own party.
You want to know why the Dems are so angry? Because they understand that this is not an isolated incident. It’s just another Rove scandal.
Those who defend Rove are defending one of the most unethical people in politics today. He’s in a class by himself. Comparing his history of bad behavior with a single, very stupid action by Berger is absurd.
Those who support Rove have lost their ethical yardstick.
John Cole
The last time I checked, Chris Lehane, Paul Begala, James Carville, and Sydney Blumenthal all were still politically viable operatives within the Democratic party.
That doesn’t excuse Rove if he did what has been asserted, and it in no way excuses some of his slimier behavior, but a little less “Republicans Bad, Democrats Good” would make you appear a touch less sanctimonious and naive, Sojourner.
Frank
John- If any of those guys had recently leaked the identity of a CIA operative from the White House and lied about it, and Sojourner were defending them, your point would be stronger, but point taken anyway.
Sojourner
Tell me… .Which of the above bugged his own office, then blamed it on the opponent?
Which of the above did push polls about an opponent having an illegitimate black child?
And the list goes on.
Compared to Rove, the guys you list are amateurs.
Doug
My bad, I guess. I was not aware that your original comment was confined to the issue of whether one or the other of Rove or Berger should be imprisoned. Imprisonment should be reserved for law breakers. Morally repugnant scumbags should be dealt with through other means.
Zach
Link
Sorry about that, didn’t realize it was a straight HTML editor. This should link to the Kleinman post.
p.lukasiak
I understand now why some were taking issue yesterday with my inclusion of the OVP/CIA sent Wilson part in our consensus gathering, as that appears to be one of the new talking points.
at the time I was bitching about it, I didn’t actually know that the talking points had been distributed :)
****************************
The bottom line on Rove is that the White House has to do something at this point — the stonewalling that is going on (combined with the renewed, vicious attacks on Wilson’s character by the GOP) are bad for the credibility of the office of the President. Both the White House, and Rove personally, have issued statements designed to make the American people believe that Rove had nothing to do with the leak — and we now know those statements were false. (and anyone who claims they weren’t “false” by parsing the language can kiss my ass. If those statements aren’t false, then Bill Clinton never did “have sex with that woman.”)
Bush needs to fire Rove or tell him to resign, or at the very least make Rove publicly explain exactly what he did, and why he did it — and see if the public buys it.
Jon H
“At worst, Rove knowingly exposed an undercover agent of the CIA to extract political vengeance on someone.”
He exposed an undercover agent to extract political vengence on someone else.
Here’s an amusing thought: Remember back when there was a demonstration outside Rove’s house, and he was all upset?
” Palacios said that Rove was “very upset” and was “yelling in our faces” and that Rove told them “he hoped we were proud to make his 14-year-old and 10-year-old cry.”
A White House spokesman said one of the children was a neighbor.
Palacios, trembling and in tears herself, said, “He is very offended because we dared to come here. We dared to come here because he dared to ignore us. I’m sorry we disturbed his children, but our children are disturbed every day.
“He also said, ‘Don’t ever dare to come back,’ ” Palacios said. “We will, if he continues to ignore us.”
Good to know Rove feels a family is out of bounds. Er, not.
Kimmitt
I agree with you, but the guy’s accused of burning a national security asset for petty revenge. It’d be nice to hear at least a nod to the fact that these are extremely serious allegations.
Defense Guy
I’ve seen this movie before, twice. Once when Reagan was president and once when Clinton was. The whole trilogy makes me sick.
Kirk Spencer
A small correction. Rove’s attorney said the prosecutor told him that it did not appear that Rove broke the law. Personally, I find this worthy of large grains of salt or careful parsing. The prosecutor has maintained extraordinarily effective silence, while Rove’s attorney has already had to change story slightly at least once as new events came to light.
Thus the difference between Rove and Berger narrows.
SeesThroughIt
Exactly. Pretty much his whole career has been defined by redefining the word “underhanded,” and I do find it rather funny that so many right-wingers are trying to trot out semantics as a defense because that’s downright Clintonian. They have become what they hate!
Fledermaus
just flat out wrong about the Democrats and Berger. Tehre was a widespread attempt to downplay what he had done, both in the Beltway and in the blogosphere.
Yeah, I remember that Op-ed in the NYT which said that Berger was right to take the documents, that he was a noble whistleblower. Then there was Bill Moyers on NOW saying that Berger deserved a medal for taking the documents.
Admittedly, it was downplayed by the Dems but come on, nobody was calling him a hero.
Rick
Actually, things are looking up for Dubya. A new poll shows Dubya up, and the Democrats in a “death spiral.”*
Request for well-bookmarked left-wingers: a URL to a story, please, from a genuine news organization (no blogs) about Rove’s career of evil tactics, as opposed to effective strategy. Would especially appreciate one that compares/contrasts with current and past “industry” practices.
Cordially…
* (TM) Sojourner vernacular
Sojourner
Check out the book “Bush’s Brain”. Although you will no doubt discount it.
Wow, Dubya doesn’t even achieve a majority. Real impressive.
Stormy70
What is best in life Rove?
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
They hate him because he wins elections.
On the Plame thing, I am waiting to see what the special prosecuter produces in the way of indictments before I comment on Rove. The Wilson’s are still partisan hacks, and should have known that an oped published in the NYT full of lies, would produce a pushback from Republicans. Noticed how Wilson went on the Today show and was interviewed by a celebrity reporter, instead of a real journalist like Russert. There is reason why Kerry dropped him like a hot potato while campaigning. And what covert spy lets her husband publish such an oped? Not a very good one, in my opinion. Her credibility was shot when she posed in Vanity Fair in a freaking Jaguar! I was actually sympathetic until that self serving moment. What a stupid “spy”.
One other thing. Are the CIA allowed to run covert ops in America? I really would like clarification on this.
At least Goss was able to get some resignations from some serious lefties at the CIA.
Tulie
Interesting link for Rove’s political career: Frontline: “The Architect”.
It’s a pretty good place to start.
Sojourner
Bullshit. We hate him because he has no ethics. Truth and fairness don’t matter to him. It’s a shame they don’t matter to you either.
Kimmitt
You’re half-right; we hate him because he is destructive slime AND because he wins elections. There are plenty of vicious bastards out there, but they don’t necessarily come to my attention, because they’re doing their damage out of my sight. There are also plenty of guys who win elections for the other side that I’m not familiar with, because they win in the way one generally wins elections, so they are opponents, rather than enemies. It is the combination of Rove’s brutality and his efficacy which is so toxic.
arkabee
if someone harms me and is punished, i feel that is good.
if someone harms me and is punished, and i have disagreements with their politics or ideology or philosophy or world view, that is as good.
the same as if someone harms and is punished, and i have agreement with their politics or ideology or philosophy or world view.
i have the same response to the similarities of the three different examples.
i have different responses to the differences of the three different examples.
does that make me “partisan”?
more importantly, does that make the punishment “partisan”?
Bob
I think that the comparison with Sandy Berger does raise some questions. As someone who would be classified as on the Left (I prefer a vertical scale based on money and power, which would put me near the bottom of the pyramid), I did resent the coverage of Berger. First off, it was done in the middle of the campaign last year and held up by the Right as how you just can’t trust the Left with NatSec. Then there was the whole buffoonery of it. Did he put the docs in his pockets, in his socks, in his pants, inside or outside his underwear?
There was just enough information leaked to not really know what the whole thing was about. Because it was natsec, we probably won’t ever know exactly what the documents were and what the point of his taking them really was. Please, I know that there’s plenty of theories, Darrell.
So, yes, there are parallels here, and people of like political positions (I actually have no idea what Berger’s political position is on anything, just that he’s been connected to Demo administrations) you tend to want to defend him from the pitbulls from the other side.
Who knows? Maybe Sandy was planning on committing TREASON. He was certainly accused of it out there. But whatever his motives and actions, I’d bet that Rove, Scooty and the rest have trumped him again.
Rick
Check out the book “Bush’s Brain”. Although you will no doubt discount it.
Sojourner,
Real helpful; a blog-on-dead-tree. And for your history of Bill Clinton, I advise one of a clutch of books by R. Emmitt Tyrrell. I hear good things about them back in my FREEPer days.
Has Time or Newsweek or U.S. News, or the ChiTrib or Stl Louis Post-Dispatch or someone done the Big Story on the evil genius Rove?
Someone did give a link to Frontline. I’ll peek; at least it’s not Indymedia or Now with Bill Moyers.
Cordially…
Sojourner
What a surprise. Rick rejected the book. Sorry, you’ll have to do your own research. The book I recommended is the most commonly recommended on the topic. I’m not going to waste my time finding articles for you to reject.