The Washington Post restates a claim that was made earlier this year in Slate or Salon (I can’t remember which, but it was a huge piece that examined the legal documents, etc.), that Maj. Gen. Geoff Miller is the connection between the out of control practices early on at Gitmo and then later at Abu Ghraib:
The report’s findings are the strongest indication yet that the abusive practices seen in photographs at Abu Ghraib were not the invention of a small group of thrill-seeking military police officers. The report shows that they were used on Qahtani several months before the United States invaded Iraq.
The investigation also supports the idea that soldiers believed that placing hoods on detainees, forcing them to appear nude in front of women and sexually humiliating them were approved interrogation techniques for use on detainees.
A central figure in the investigation, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who commanded the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and later helped set up U.S. operations at Abu Ghraib, was accused of failing to properly supervise Qahtani’s interrogation plan and was recommended for reprimand by investigators. Miller would have been the highest-ranking officer to face discipline for detainee abuses so far, but Gen. Bantz Craddock, head of the U.S. Southern Command, declined to follow the recommendation.
Miller traveled to Iraq in September 2003 to assist in Abu Ghraib’s startup, and he later sent in “Tiger Teams” of Guantanamo Bay interrogators and analysts as advisers and trainers. Within weeks of his departure from Abu Ghraib, military working dogs were being used in interrogations, and naked detainees were humiliated and abused by military police soldiers working the night shift.
Military investigators wanted the former prison commander at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reprimanded over the treatment of one terror suspect, but a top general rejected their call, according to a congressional aide.
Looking into FBI reports of abuse, the investigators found multiple instances at the prison, including the use of duct tape on at least one prisoner’s face, a threat to kill another prisoner’s family, and inappropriate touching by female interrogators, according to this aide, who was familiar with the findings.
But the Pentagon investigators decided interrogators’ behavior did not reach the level of torture or inhumane treatment, said the aide, who discussed the findings on condition of anonymity because the Defense Department has not released them.
BTW- the report does also show that torture was not the norm at Gitmo, and that the complaints reported by FBI agents do not bear out (at least according to this investigation):
A high-level military investigation into complaints by F.B.I. agents about the abuse of detainees at Guant
Mr Furious
Where there’s smoke (a General), there’s fire (civilian leadership?). One can only assume when you are talking about guys with careers and ranks like Miller, he’s not freelancing on this shit, it came from somewhere above him. these guys don’t do stuff without some cover for their ass.
Even if one considers he migh’ve come up with this to impress his superiors, I would say, “why would he think that would impress his superiors?”
This was a back-channel culture pushed down from up high, not frat hijinks going on at the pvt level.
Andrew J. Lazarus
You’ll never get the Bushies to believe this. Everyone knows that Lynndie England was the ringleader. and it wasn’t so bad, anyway.
Rick
….Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who commanded the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and later helped set up U.S. operations at Abu Ghraib, was accused of failing to properly supervise Qahtani’s interrogation plan and was recommended for reprimand by investigators.
Failure to supervise indicates this is about as high as it goes, a level, oh, maybe 15 “paygrades” below Rumsfeld. So now feminist heroine BGEN Karpinski has some cover.
Careful what “one must assume.” With rank comes responsibility and authority, but that can be a bitch, because it doesn’t guaranteed knowledge and awareness. Those convicted to far haven’t done the Nuremberg Defense, after all.
Cordially…
Mr Furious
Bullshit, Rick. How does, “We’ll call it ‘failure to supervise’ with no court-martial or punishment, and you keep your mouth shut.” sound to you? It’s sounds about right to me.
Defense Guy
Do you have proof of this Mr. Furious?
Anderson
It’s going to take a lot more than an ass-covering self-investigation by the military, to make me discredit those FBI reports.
Mr Furious
Of course not, I’m simply talking out of my ass. It’s only a theory. I thought “How does…sound to you?” was obvious speculation.
Of course the whole point of a coverup or whiewash is to eliminate the evidence, so I don’t expect any to be forthcoming.
Mr Furious
Of course not, I’m simply talking out of my ass. It’s only a theory. I thought “How does…sound to you?” was obvious speculation.
Of course the whole point of a coverup or whiewash is to eliminate the evidence, so I don’t expect any to be forthcoming.
Mr Furious
Crap. Double-posted again!
jcricket
I read this article last night and clearly they’re using a very narrow definition of torture that may mee the “letter” but not the “spirit” of the law.
From the ABC article:
and
Sounds perfectly OK to me? I’m sure we’d all be OK with the police treating people like this in our country if we suspect they murdered someone. Or how about the Americans in Turkish prisons on suspicion of criminal behavior. No big deal if they come home mentally disturbed or physically broken after interrogation, right?
Whether or not it’s torture misses the point. And if you believe, as Senator Inhofe said, “[we] have nothing to be ashamed of”, you’ve completely missed the bigger picture. There aren’t a finite number of terrorists. This type of prisoner treatment, whether it’s classified as torture or not, is certainly a useful recruiting tool for creating more terrorists. As important, it’s shameful behavior for any American to sanction this behavior, war-time or not. Enemy behavior worse than this doesn’t matter, we’re better than this.
Moreover, we’ve released nearly 31% of the prisoners at Gitmo, so far, Do we really think that treating everyone there like dogs, detaining them indefinitely, or sexually humiliating them is going to win the “hearts and minds” of the moderate muslims out there? When those 230 people go to their home countries and talk to the press, do you think it will convince their countrymen to support us in rooting out terrorists from their midst? What about after we release another 200 people? How will that look?
Just on a pragmatic level, do you really think that mistreating prisoners is likely to help our long-term efforts to eliminate terrorist support networks?
Background below:
Aaron
Yeah, the FBI are the real heros.
After all, they stopped 9/11 in its tracks and have such a good track record in other areas.
The FBI even complained when interrogators “played the part of FBI or State Department officials.” Of course, such techniques are extremely valuable in interrogation – you can bring in a new face, try a new tactic, threaten domestic actions against relatives or rendtion, etc.
But I guess now lying is now form of torture.
FBI guys better stop with the good cop/bad cop routine, which is essentially dishonest as well, no?
Mr Furious
Well done, jcricket.
Anderson
Aaron, of course I have a beef with the FBI. Their management sucks.
But we have statements by FBI agents alleging torture or abuse.
Either those statements are accurate, or those agents should be fired & perhaps imprisoned. Until I see some action on the latter, I’ll believe the former.
Mr Furious
“I do not know if these are the reports referred by Sen. Durbin in his now ‘infamous’ Senate speech.”
I believe they are. If not, that reflects even worse on the situation, as it indicates even more examples of wrongdoing…
JKC
John, you missed the money quote from the second paragraph of the WaPo’s story:
This went right up to the Cabinet, and though there’s no proof of it, I’d guess that the Vice President (at the very least) was aware of this as well.
JKC
John, you missed the money quote from the second paragraph of the WaPo’s story:
This went right up to the Cabinet, and though there’s no proof of it, I’d guess that the Vice President (at the very least) was aware of this as well.
Rick
Of course not, I’m simply talking out of my ass…
I’ve seen your comments all over, and I must say you’re very fluent, all things considered.
Cordially…
Don
I am reaching my saturation point with regards to indignation and this stuff. What goes on in these places is directly tied to the message everyone there gets about what’s appropriate, a message from on high that’s both direct and indirect.
So much chatter goes on about what we Have To Do with regards to rights, procedures, treatments and trials. Do we want to be the nation that treats people only as well as we Have To? Does anyone not in a mad fit of apologist actually think that taking pictures of islamic dick accomplishes anything?
We should be a shining beacon, not a bunch of weasels skating the razor edge of the law.
Stormy70
I have no problem with this, and I don’t care if radical muslims get upset. I have no respect for a culture of death that wants to subjigate women, push walls onto homosexuals, and kill the infidel. And if this is all it takes for a so-called moderate muslim to being pushed into the terrorist’camp, then how moderate are they really? If they throw their lot in with killers of children and babies, and who settle their disagreements by beheading, then they are beyond the US’s idealogical reach. At that point, they deserve what they get. A true Muslim can disagree with our policies, and still hate and condemn terrorists.
arkabee
Aaron,
“But I guess now lying is now form of torture.”
No, i would say that lying is wrong, and torture is wrong.
Is wrong committed by good people, of course. That does not make wrong good, it means good people have done wrong.
If a good person does wrong, i expect for them to be a good person, that they will admit that they have done wrong.
If a bad person does wrong, i do not expect them to admit it.
That’s pretty “up in the clouds” talk, i know.
Let me put it this way:
If someone is in a position, a tought position, where they have to make a decision that has very tough repercusions such as maybe to stop a terrorist attack, and they do something wrong in order to stop it, and after the fact they say “in order to stop the attack, i did something that in hindsight i feel is wrong”, i feel/believe that they can still be a good person. i don’t expect perfection from people.
but if they did do something wrong, and they don’t admit it, then i have serious questions about whether they are good.
but when they do something wrong, and they try to cover up the fact that they have done wrong by doing more wrong, well, i know that they are bad.
In the case of Gitmo, i can tell you that i don’t know what the hell is going on. I am not knowledgeable nor in a position to judge the people involved. But that does not make me believe that it is right to lie, that it is right to torture, that it is right to imprison people who have not been charged with a crime let alone convicted of a crime.
Things that i believe to be wrong are being done, and rather than state “yes, they are wrong, but shit dude i don’t know what else to do, i don’t see _any_ other options that i thnk are going to be as effective” is far different than saying “these things aren’t wrong” and is far different than saying “these things aren’t happening” and is FAR FAR FAR different than saying “because you think these things are wrong YOU ARE WRONG” is far different etc, etc, etc.
Stormy70,
“A true Muslim can disagree with our policies, and still hate and condemn terrorists.”
There is a signifigant difference, to me, between disagreeing with a policy, and having a policy i disagree with applied to me.
You seem to be saying, or rather, i am interpreting you to be saying that if someone is captured by my Government and removed to a prison without being charged, without representation, and in my view tortured that they are allowed to disagree with policy but that you could not empathize in any way if they were to be moved beyond disagreement and into a nonrational realm of response.
i do not understand your apparent, to me, dettachment.
Stormy70
I have a detachment to terrorists and their sympathizers. I don’t care one wit about them or what they think about me. Long time posters on this site know I don’t believe in physical torture, since it does not accomplish anything. This stuff is not torture, so there is nothing for me to be “Outraged” about. Terrorists are not to be coddled, and I don’t give a flying fig about their sensibilities.
Sojourner
Stormy continues her peaceful existence on Planet Stormy, content to believe the Bush rhetoric about the happy little detainees. She talks about Hussein’s rape rooms but ignores the fact that the rape rooms remain open under U.S. control – with women and children being the “invited” guests. She happily ignores the deaths that have occurred, the keeping of people in isolation, in the dark, for months at a time until they’re raving lunatics. Exactly what kind of information one expects to get from a psychotic isn’t at all obvious.
But Stormy is happy in her delusion that the U.S. does nothing more than hurt the feelings of the detainees. Happy, happy little Stormy.
JDM
jcricket @ July 14, 2005 10:59 AM;
Do we really think that treating everyone there like dogs, detaining them indefinitely, or sexually humiliating them is going to win the “hearts and minds” of the moderate muslims out there?
I’ve seen no evidence GWB cares about winning hearts and minds, quite the contrary actually.
There’s +60% unemployment over there: CPA contractors are bringing cheaper labor in from Yemen, Syria etc. Winning hearts and minds?
Get real, Cricket.
JDM
jcricket @ July 14, 2005 10:59 AM;
Do we really think that treating everyone there like dogs, detaining them indefinitely, or sexually humiliating them is going to win the “hearts and minds” of the moderate muslims out there?
I’ve seen no evidence GWB cares about winning hearts and minds, quite the contrary actually.
There’s +60% unemployment over there: CPA contractors are bringing cheaper labor in from Yemen, Syria etc. Winning hearts and minds?
Get real.