Big three page piece in the NY Times about a previously undisclosed phone conversation between Rove and Novak:
Karl Rove, the White House senior adviser, spoke with the columnist Robert D. Novak as he was preparing an article in July 2003 that identified a C.I.A. officer who was undercover, someone who has been officially briefed on the matter said.
Mr. Rove has told investigators that he learned from the columnist the name of the C.I.A. officer, who was referred to by her maiden name, Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq, the person said.
After hearing Mr. Novak’s account, the person who has been briefed on the matter said, Mr. Rove told the columnist: “I heard that, too.”
The previously undisclosed telephone conversation, which took place on July 8, 2003, was initiated by Mr. Novak, the person who has been briefed on the matter said.
Six days later, Mr. Novak’s syndicated column reported that two senior administration officials had told him that Mr. Wilson’s “wife had suggested sending him” to Africa. That column was the first instance in which Ms. Wilson was publicly identified as a C.I.A. operative.
The column provoked angry demands for an investigation into who disclosed Ms. Wilson’s name to Mr. Novak. The Justice Department appointed Patrick J. Fitzgerald, a top federal prosecutor in Chicago, to lead the inquiry. Mr. Rove said in an interview with CNN last year that he did not know the C.I.A. officer’s name and did not leak it.
The person who provided the information about Mr. Rove’s conversation with Mr. Novak declined to be identified, citing requests by Mr. Fitzgerald that no one discuss the case. The person discussed the matter in the belief that Mr. Rove was truthful in saying that he had not disclosed Ms. Wilson’s identity.
On Oct. 1, 2003, Mr. Novak wrote another column in which he described calling two officials who were his sources for the earlier column. The first source, whose identity has not been revealed, provided the outlines of the story and was described by Mr. Novak as “no partisan gunslinger.” Mr. Novak wrote that when he called a second official for confirmation, the source said, “Oh, you know about it.”
That second source was Mr. Rove, the person briefed on the matter said. Mr. Rove’s account to investigators about what he told Mr. Novak was similar in its message although the White House adviser’s recollection of the exact words was slightly different. Asked by investigators how he knew enough to leave Mr. Novak with the impression that his information was accurate, Mr. Rove said he had heard parts of the story from other journalists but had not heard Ms. Wilson’s name.
Maybe it is just me, but I felt this was an extraordinarily confusing write-up, and it makes it difficult to understand how many people are involved here. By my reading, the following are involved:
1.) Rove
2.) Novak
3.) The ‘no partisan gunslinger’
4.) The person ‘briefed on the matter’
Now, some questions and observations:
– Is this just a case of Rove pointing to Novak and Novak pointing back? That could explain why Rove has been called three times to the Grand Jury, as Fitzgerald is probably getting pissed. This would also validate Victoria Toensing’s speculation yesterday that this was “a ‘Martha Stewart case’ ” involving perjury or obstruction of justice.”
– Who is the other unnamed source?
– This conversation was on 8 July, pushing the time line forward to only two days after the Wilson op-ed before the campaign to discredit him/refute him really began in earnest.
And finally, since cynical and skeptical neutrality is probably a decent way to go through life but no way to run a blog, let me make a guess about who the ‘no partisan gunslinger’ source might be- I nominate Colin Powell.
Why? Well, we know all the following- Colin Powell is no partisan gunslinger, at least as viewed by most in the media, and certainly Novak would characterize Powell as something less than fiercely partisan.
– We know that Colin Powell had access to the CIA reports that had Plame’s name involved (the same ones lefties are using to claim that Cheney told Rove and Cheney is the source of the leak).
– Powell, if anyone, would have motive to squelch what he believed were false or vastly overstated statements coming from Wilson regarding WMD, considering Powell’s access and presentation to the UN is what solidified the WMD argument.
– Powell would have access to Plame’s transition to the State department.
– Powell was/is a notoriously tough behind the scenes fighter.
– Powell has also been before the grand jury at the request of Fitzgerald.
– Powell and Novak have been operators for years, traveling in similar circles for a long time. Novak has profiled Powell several times.
So there you go- here is my tin-foil hat wingnuttery for the day. Powell, off the record, relays his disgust about Wilson to Novak in the immediate aftermath of the Wilson op-ed, and sketches the background of what really happened regarding Wilson’s trip to Niger. Powell has also been part of working groups within the White House, where Plame’s status may have been discussed, but not her name (Joseph Wilson’s wife works for the CIA, etc.) Rove would not view Powell as a source, as he would view him as one of the insiders planning strategy to refute/discredit Wilson. Novak does some digging, finds out Plame’s name and calls back to Rove and blurts out her name. Rove confirms. Rove then feels free to shop the information to other reporters, as the name is out there and it isn’t classified info, because ‘everyone knows Jo Wilson’s wife works for the CIA.’ Rove also feels free to respond to reporters such as Cooper, and ward them off the story because he believes it is nonsense and Plame’s name is already out there.
How is that for crazed, unfounded speculation? So much for skeptical neutrality. If anything, this should point out how baseless all this speculation is- we don’t know anything, and should just wait for the Fitzgerald investigation to end.
Zifnab
I’m all for waiting till the Fitzgerald investigation to end before we start throwing people in jail. However, when Rove’s own lawyer admits his involvement and Cooper’s Time article as much as confirms every suspicion…
I mean, the facts are out plain and simple. You can’t not conclude that Rove was involved in outing a CIA agent. Everyone but Rove himself has gone forward and admitted it. The questions that the Fitzgerald inquiry are going to answer are A) Was it technically illegal? and B) If or how Karl Rove should be punished/investigated further?
Mr Furious
I still say Bolton is the original source, and perhaps Novak got some kind of confirmation out of Powell. But, basically I thnk Novak and Rove are full of shit and gaming this just well enough that there won’t be quite enough fingerprints to nail either of them.
Can you treat them as a big scummy group and say “added together, they meet the requirements of the statute?” Of course not, but it’s no less than they deserve.
Christie S.
You know John, you spin a credible theory. It could have been just that way. I think it would break my heart if Powell did something this boneheaded, though.
My husband was active duty in Desert Storm and Powell was pretty much revered by the line troops and, by association, their families.
::sigh:: I hope you’re wrong.
Stormy70
So the media leaked to Rove, interesting.
Steve
The claim is that Rove told Novak nothing more than “Oh, I heard that too” and that he had originally heard it from, uh, some source he can’t remember, but “it might have been a journalist!” This defense is clearly for the wingnuttiest of the wingnuts and if that’s really the story he went with before the grand jury, God help him.
The source for this leak of grand jury testimony is curious. The special prosecutor’s office has been pretty airtight to date, so I doubt they’re suddenly going to start leaking all over the place. The most obvious suspect is Rove’s attorney, but would the media really let the White House claim publicly that they’re not going to comment, and then turn around and let administration officials comment anonymously about everything? Well, I guess that was a silly question.
Cliff
It has always been possible that Rove was not the first, or direct outer — that he intended his double super secret conversations as “deep background”, but others in the WH were a bit more enthusiastic. (Rove leaving evidence of slimy/illegal behaviour directly traceable to his door has always struck me as a bit unlikely.)
Lots of possibilities for what happened, and I doubt any one of us will know soon. Bolton to Miller to Novak to Powell and Rove…
I personally doubt Powell as a primary pusher of the story, as he seems to have had his misgivings about the intel.
Mike Jones
The thing that threw me about that article (and I agree it was very confusing) is that Rove seems to be saying both “I heard it, too” and that he didn’t know either Plame’s name or the circumstances of the trip until Novak told him. If he didn’t know either of those, what was left to have “heard”?
Cliff
Mike, if I recall correctly it’s actually more confusing than that: Rove has claimed not to know about Plame/trip until Novak’s column.
Steve, as to the leak. It could be a leaker in Fitzgerald’s office — he was trying to smoke one out in an earlier case involving Miller, from what I recall. Perhaps this leaker has been biding his/her time.
Another story more specifically identifies this latest source as a lawyer, so yeah, maybe it is Luskin. Seems unlikely though.
Defense Guy
This part seems to indicate that the information about Plame was provided to Novak by someone other than Rove. I’ve been waiting to find out who the 2nd source (or 1st chronologically) was, and John’s guess seems as good as any.
This gets “better” and “better”.
Anderson
The wingnuts will laugh their asses off if COLIN POWELL goes to jail over this.
Could happen, though!
Defense Guy
I won’t be laughing. Do you suppose there is any way that you could not denigrate those that don’t share your opinion? Is wingnut just to tempting to type?
frontinus
Why would Powell be pissed at Wilson when everybody at State already agreed that the documents were fake long before he even went to Niger? Check Powell’s speech to the UNSC. He made no mention of the yellow cake. Now if Wilson had debunked the aluminum tubes and Powell had egg on his face then maybe I’d believe him leaking to get even. But he didn’t and I don’t. The leak probably came from someone in the CIA-DO. Maybe Pavitt who retired last year. Someone who knew intimately about both Plame and Brewster. The only reason I say this is because both the leaker and the CIA official Novak cleared the story with had the same disregard for the publication of the information.
Darrell
Damn John, don’t get the big head or anything, but that is really some brilliant, insightful thought provoking reasoning/deduction on your part.. especially picking up on the ‘no partisan gunslinger’ business and building a well thought out theory from there. Very interesting.. we’ll see how your theory plays out.. oh, and Kudos
Andrei
I think Darrell missed the part when John said:
“So there you go – here is my tin-foil hat wingnuttery for the day.”
Or later when John said:
“How is that for crazed, unfounded speculation?”
Val
I am totally confused by the discussion, comments and opinions specifically provided by some newspapers, elected representatives and politicians.
Following things may be interesting to look at:
WHY ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES SPECIFICALLY LIBERALS WHO INITIATED SPECIAL PROSECUTER INQUIRY ARE COMMENTING WITHOUT ANY FINAL DECISION REACHED BY GRAND JURY AND SPECIAL PROSECUTER?
BASED ON THE AVAILABLE INFORMATION, SHE WAS NOT PROTECTED BY CIA AND THE STATUE.
HER HUSBAND IS THE ONE BENEFITING FROM THIS AS HE WROTE THE BOOK AND RECEIVED FINANCIAL BENEFIT WITH HIS LIES.
WHY MEDIA IS SPENDING SO MUCH WASTED EFFORTS ON THIS STORY AND PRACTICALLY IGNORED THE SECURITY VIOLATION INCLUDING LYING BY SANDY BURGER?
Sojourner
Which lies were those? The ones about the statement in the SOTU speech that were subsequently retracted by the Bushies?
Congratulations on being a member of the mindless followers of the Bush administration. Trash anyone who disagrees with them. Very nice.
Shalimar
Val,
Fitzgerald’s inquiry was initiated when the CIA asked the Justice Department to investigate, which is a pretty good indication that the CIA thinks she was an undercover agent protected by the statute. It had nothing to do with liberal democratic leaders, who have been relatively silent on this until the last week.
You’re repeating Ken Mehlman talking points without realizing how silly and wrong they are. Valerie Wilson didn’t officially work for the US government. The simple fact that she worked for the CIA was top secret information. Everyone who worked for the same company she did and every clandestine contact she had overseas was compromised when her name was printed in the newspaper. In espionage, compromise frequently leads to death. People who have provided information helpful to the United States may have died because of this.
As for Burger, taking classified documents home with you when you aren’t supposed to is a far cry from exposing an undercover CIA operative. At the very least, Rove’s lawyer has admitted that he confirmed Valerie Wilson’s identity to Novak and revealed it to Cooper, which is reprehensible behavior even if he didn’t technically commit a crime. Rove worked in the White House. If he didn’t know whether Wilson was undercover or not, then he damned well should have found out before he carelessly discussed her identity with reporters. Ignorance of the law is not a defense, especially for a high-level government official.
Therese McKinley
I don’t understand where your confusion comes from….
its the old tried and true classic, the shell game. Worked for years with the Carney people.
The whole point is, the Republicans hired a very good marketing and advertising firm, the Dems haven’t yet…but they will wake up sometime soon.
This is nothing more than the the usual game….if you repeat a lie over and over….it becomes the truth….
Lynne
Is everyone becoming fed up enough with AOL’s bias? TIME is a player in this whole fiasco (just like that textbook example of shoddy, biased, far left journalism Newseek. AOL is owned by Time-Warner. The “polls” they have been conducting on all manner of things have had increasingly far left biases for a few years…and they are getting bolder and bolder.
Consider cancelling your AOL subscriptions as I am. there are many others out there.
Lynne
Salim
So exactly what is your point Therese? Polls speak for the people who participate. Nothing wrong in telling it the way it is.
Salim
Opps! Sorry Therese. My rebutal was meant for Lynne.