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You are here: Home / Politics / Sanity… Sort Of

Sanity… Sort Of

by John Cole|  July 16, 200511:13 am| 39 Comments

This post is in: Politics

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Everybody seems to want me to link to this Mark Kleiman piece which outlines a list of possible crimes that Rove et al. could be charged. In fact, so many people have linked it in the comments that my comments section might start getting technorati hits. Fine- linked, and duly noted.

Except, of course, I read Kleiman pretty much every day, so there was no real need to point it out, as I had alrerady seen it and not really thought much about it. While Mark’s suggestion(s) is wholly possible, I generally regard speculation about specific charges to be a tad premature at this point. All we have to date are what appear to be pro-Rove leaks and wild anti-Rove claims, so I am going to wait a little bit to see how this whole thing turns out.

Now, on to something Mark has said that I completely agree with:

Some folks who ought to know better, and others who clearly don’t know any better, have been tossing around the terms “treason” and “traitor” in connection with the White House efforts to burn Valerie Plame as a CIA officer.

Get a grip, people!

What Rove and his buddies did was despicable. It was unpatriotic. More likely than not, it was even criminal. But it wasn’t “treason,” and Karl Rove isn’t a “traitor,” either in plain English or in law.

In plain English, a traitor is someone who, for whatever reason, fights for or otherwise helps an enemy foreign power making war, or preparing to make war, on his country. Sometimes, it’s for money, as with Hansen and Ames. Sometimes it’s out of personal pique, as in the case of Benedict Arnold. Sometimes it’s ideological, as with the Rosenbergs.

Of course, as I jokingly acknowledged yesterday, the left is hardly on their own in this, and were the tables turned, the same sort of thing and probably louder would be going on from the partisans on the right. Not to mention that some on the right think Rove is worthy of a medal and the WSJ has hailed Rove as a hero.

The claims of treason and traitor are, of course, silly, but if this was James Carville under scrutiny, Sean Hannity would be livecasting his radio show from in front of the Grand Jury proceedings.

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39Comments

  1. 1.

    Darrell

    July 16, 2005 at 11:48 am

    Now, on to something Mark has said that I completely agree with:

    What Rove and his buddies did was despicable. It was unpatriotic.

    I must have missed something. Has it been definitively established that Rove was the leaker? Because if not, agreeing with “despicable” and “unpatriotic” would be agreeing with some pretty over-the-top language, don’t you think?

  2. 2.

    demimondian

    July 16, 2005 at 11:54 am

    Darrell —

    Has it been definitively established that Rove was the leaker?

    I don’t think that there’s any credible argument the Rove wasn’t the primary leaker. There’s an emergent paper trail, and the only person whose dates and times line up is Karl Rove. Whether Judith Miller played a role, and which role she played, if any, is still a matter of debate, but I think that KR’s primacy in the leak fest that led to Plame’s outing is pretty well established.

  3. 3.

    Stormy70

    July 16, 2005 at 11:59 am

    If you want over the top, see Paul Begala.

    Hey, I’m coming for you Paul! Asshat.

  4. 4.

    Darrell

    July 16, 2005 at 12:02 pm

    ..And speaking of over-the-top leftist hysterics (and yes, I got your point that use of “traitor” was ridiculous), no mention of Paul Begala’s accusations?

    Republicans, he said, “want to kill us…

    ..”They want to kill me and my children if they can. But if they just kill me and not my children, they want my children to be comforted — that while they didn’t protect me because they cut my taxes, my children won’t have to pay any money on the money they inherit,” Begala said

    So now we have evil Repubs wanting to kill Begala’s children. Are there equivalent over-the-top comments coming from Repubs? I await the next joint Begala/Durbin announcement that Republicans want to ‘rape your children’

  5. 5.

    Darrell

    July 16, 2005 at 12:03 pm

    argh.. Stormy beat me to it

  6. 6.

    Stormy70

    July 16, 2005 at 12:10 pm

    Hah! You owe me a coke, Darrell!

  7. 7.

    Mike S

    July 16, 2005 at 12:13 pm

    Rep Peter King did say that media people who gave Wilson air time should be shot.

  8. 8.

    Darrell

    July 16, 2005 at 12:18 pm

    So in addition to the humiliation of double posting the same link, I now owe Stormy a coke too? *searches for pocket change to buy coke*

  9. 9.

    itsbits

    July 16, 2005 at 12:20 pm

    go over to to TPMCafe and read Larry Johnson’s post “The Intelligence Challenge: Can We Trust Our President?” written by 4 former CIA officers. I think that goes to the heart of this mess.

  10. 10.

    M. Scott Eiland

    July 16, 2005 at 12:48 pm

    So now we have evil Repubs wanting to kill Begala’s children. Are there equivalent over-the-top comments coming from Repubs? I await the next joint Begala/Durbin announcement that Republicans want to ‘rape your children’

    “We have just uncovered double super-secret reports from RNC headquarters that Mike Tyson is to be the new commander of Gitmo, as well as my opponent in the next Senate election.”

    [men in white coats arrive with straitjackets and Thorazine, and remove Mr. Durbin and Mr. Begala]

  11. 11.

    Doug

    July 16, 2005 at 12:55 pm

    Anyone have a source for that Begala thing that doesn’t involve CNS “news”? Their story seems hacked up enough that I’d be interested to read the full text of Begala’s remarks to see if they leave the same impression.

  12. 12.

    Archie

    July 16, 2005 at 1:01 pm

    The word ‘traitor’ is pretty mainstream these days, thanks to Ann Coultier and Bill O’Reilly, it doesn’t seem that outrageous to apply the word to a man who did what Rove did.

    Maybe we should all settle down and stop calling each other names. Except if we did that, Rove would have nothing to use and Republicans would start losing elections.

    It’s hard to be a reality-based conservative these days.

  13. 13.

    ppgaz

    July 16, 2005 at 1:07 pm

    Oops, sorry. I see it’s a Darrell-Stormy thread.

    Nothing useful here, move along.

    Slow weekend, everybody? Let’s all beat our gums about some friggin pundit.

    That way we don’t have to pay any attention to the world of shit that has become our government.

    PAUL BEGALA!!! TERRI SCHIAVO!!!!

    Jesus H. Christ.

  14. 14.

    Bob Munck

    July 16, 2005 at 1:09 pm

    So you’re saying that revealing the identity of a covert agent is not “help[ing] an enemy foreign power making war, or preparing to make war, on [the] country.” By what logic? Why was the agent covert in the first place, if knowledge of his or her identity was not meant to be kept secret from an enemy because it would help them?

  15. 15.

    rs

    July 16, 2005 at 1:17 pm

    John Cole’s favorite commentator,Justin Raimondo at antiwar.com,has an interesting article “Rovegate-Who Leaked to the Leakers” speculating that the Plame affair extends beyond the characters we’ve grown to know and love the past two weeks to rival factions in the same government jockeying for power

  16. 16.

    DJ

    July 16, 2005 at 2:18 pm

    It’s pretty funny that John, who continues to call for (and post) level-headed dialogue, has PPBBQWTFZ as his most energetic, serotonin-starved commentor. Lighten up, Sally. OMFG ITS TEH WORLD OF SHIT!!!1!!2!

  17. 17.

    DJ

    July 16, 2005 at 2:19 pm

    It’s pretty funny that John, who continues to call for (and post) level-headed dialogue, has PPBBQWTFZ as his most energetic, serotonin-starved commentor. Lighten up, Sally. OMFG ITS TEH WORLD OF SHIT!!!1!!2!

  18. 18.

    Just some guy

    July 16, 2005 at 3:02 pm

    So now we have evil Repubs wanting to kill Begala’s children. Are there equivalent over-the-top comments coming from Repubs? I await the next joint Begala/Durbin announcement that Republicans want to ‘rape your children’

    Funny you should mention child raping. Let’s turn to Senator Santorum:

    When the culture is sick, every element in it becomes infected. While it is no excuse for this scandal, it is no surprise that Boston, a seat of academic, political and cultural liberalism in America, lies at the center of the storm.

    e.g., thanks to liberals, Catholic priests are raping children.

  19. 19.

    Zifnab

    July 16, 2005 at 3:05 pm

    Rove leaks a CIA operative’s name to the press, thus undermining US intelligence operations abroad, thus lifting the weight off of terrorist cells who would normally be under survallience, thus leaving the door open for another terrorist attack.

    What happens after a terrorist attack? Republicans jump in the polls and the nation hides under the Tough on Terror blanket until their newly elected Republican overlords can make the bad Muslims go away.

    I’m not saying Rove – the brilliant political strategist and master manipulator that he is – would ever deliberately weaken our national defenses to facilitate terrorism abroad while hamstringing critics at home in order to pump up the Republican party by allowing another terror attack. That would be jumping to some seriously far fetched conclusions. I’m just suggesting that he did it all accidentally. Which is much more sane, rational, and believable.

  20. 20.

    jcricket

    July 16, 2005 at 3:06 pm

    e.g., thanks to liberals, Catholic priests are raping children.

    Looking on the bridge side – Shouldn’t we be happy that Santorum is saying we’re not just the party of “no”?

  21. 21.

    Anderson

    July 16, 2005 at 3:14 pm

    As one who nagged you, John, thanks for the link. I’ve just been very tired of everyone’s acting as if only one statute were potentially at issue.

    I agree we lack anywhere near the info we need on Rove to make any fair judgments, but as you’ll agree, so far, it’s looked rather bad. Appearance or reality? Stay tuned …

  22. 22.

    RW

    July 16, 2005 at 3:15 pm

    So now we’ve reached the point that whenever someone on the left goes so far overboard that there is absolutely no excuse that can be ascertained, you’ve now determined that you can not only mindread, but look into another dimension and determine that someone on the right will be just as bad, so there.

    What, did someone criticize kos, was Kevin Phillips busy or was there a sale on security blankets somewhere?

  23. 23.

    Mike S

    July 16, 2005 at 3:25 pm

    Begala’s presence on the panel created a stir when he declared that Republicans had “done a p**-poor job of defending” the U.S.

    Republicans, he said, “want to kill us.

    “I was driving past the Pentagon when that plane hit” on Sept. 11, 2001. “I had friends on that plane; this is deadly serious to me,” Begala said.


    “They want to kill me and my children if they can. But if they just kill me and not my children, they want my children to be comforted — that while they didn’t protect me because they cut my taxes, my children won’t have to pay any money on the money they inherit,” Begala said. “That is bulls** national defense, and we should say that.”

    Anybody else think it looks like there is something missing from the Begala quotes? Like maybe he was talking about the terrorists wanting to kill us and our children, and then he talked about what Republicans are doing to protect us? The seperation between “comforted” and “that” sure looks strange to me. I wonder if CNS was pulling a Darrell?

  24. 24.

    Phil Smith

    July 16, 2005 at 3:55 pm

    I’m no fan of Begala, but that report is off base. You can listen to his comments here — sorry, I forgot to note the time, but it’s at least an hour into it — and his comment, while his pronoun agreement is somewhat sloppy, it seems pretty clear to me that the first “they” refers to jihadists. Jihadists want to kill him, and republicans are defending his children by giving them an estate tax cut. It’s only a stupid comment, not an evil one.

  25. 25.

    Stormy70

    July 16, 2005 at 4:17 pm

    Begala is stupid, not evil. He does have crazy runaway bride eyes, though. I’m still going to go after Paul and beat him with my tax cut. Look out, Paul!

  26. 26.

    Mike S

    July 16, 2005 at 4:31 pm

    Well I expect better from Stormy70. Not sure why you would want to out Darrell Darrell.

  27. 27.

    Stormy70

    July 16, 2005 at 4:36 pm

    Actually, over the top comments are par for the course in politics. Look at us, we get a little excitable sometimes in the heat of political battles discussions, but we’d probably like each other in reality. Especially if BBQ and beer is involved.

  28. 28.

    Mike S

    July 16, 2005 at 5:01 pm

    I agree whole heartedly, especially about beer and BBQ. But I think we could at least agree not to use BS stories to firther our cause. Leave that to the hacks.

  29. 29.

    Stormy70

    July 16, 2005 at 5:08 pm

    I did not know it was BS at the time I posted, but jumping the gun is half the fun. :)

  30. 30.

    Jess

    July 16, 2005 at 5:10 pm

    Wow–what a bunch of reasonable people! I always enjoy the discussions on this site (except for Darrell’s silly insults). When’s the BBQ?

    Enjoy your weekend, everybody!

  31. 31.

    W.B. Reeves

    July 16, 2005 at 7:38 pm

    Interesting that the Rosenberg case gets referenced, because it raises some questions about the elastic nature of the laws regarding espionage. Not treason though, since the Rosenbergs were neither charged with, nor convicted of treason.

    “In plain English, a traitor is someone who, for whatever reason, fights for or otherwise helps an enemy foreign power making war, or preparing to make war, on his country. Sometimes, it’s for money, as with Hansen and Ames. Sometimes it’s out of personal pique, as in the case of Benedict Arnold. Sometimes it’s ideological, as with the Rosenbergs.”

    The irony is that the specific act that the Rosenbergs were accused of (stealing the “secret” of the atomic bomb) occured during WWII, at which time the USSR, far from being an official enemy of the U.S., was considered our staunch Russian ally. This niggling detail was got round by accusing them of being a part of continuing conspiracy to commit espionage, based on the testimony of a single witness, Ethel Rosenberg’s brother David Greenglass. What’s particularly nasty about this is that the law used to execute them, the Wartime Espionage Act, was clearly intended to apply to those spying for an enemy power during wartime, not an allied power.

    The moral being, I suppose, that if the Government wants to get you badly enough, they will.

  32. 32.

    RW

    July 16, 2005 at 7:54 pm

    The Rosenbergs were as guilty as sin. The papers recovered from the former Iron Curtain after it fell showed that to be a fact.

    The weren’t just “accused of”, they were convicted. For damn good reason.

  33. 33.

    W.B. Reeves

    July 16, 2005 at 8:32 pm

    “The Rosenbergs were as guilty as sin. The papers recovered from the former Iron Curtain after it fell showed that to be a fact.

    The weren’t just “accused of”, they were convicted. For damn good reason.”

    Do you have problems with reading comprehension? The question of the Rosenberg’s guilt or innocence figured nowhere in my post, merely the methods that the Government used to get them. My comments were, to my knowlege, factual and I stand by them. FYI, the Rosenbergs were accused of “stealing the “secret” of the atomic bomb”, they were convicted of conspiracy to commit espionage during Wartime.

    Your reference to “papers recovered from the former Iron Curtain” is intriguing. Care to provide a link or citation?

  34. 34.

    RW

    July 16, 2005 at 8:42 pm

    Citation: ABC News, NBC News, CBS News, CNN News and ABC Radio. I saw/heard on all. Don’t recall the year, though. They released their spy papers & the Rosenbergs were fingered within them.

    The moral being, I suppose, that if the Government wants to get you badly enough, they will.

    So sayeth OJ Simpson, Billy Dale and Michael Jackson.
    My apologies for the reading comprehension. Perhaps some work on the writing will help those of us who desperately need it?

  35. 35.

    W.B. Reeves

    July 16, 2005 at 9:00 pm

    “Citation: ABC News, NBC News, CBS News, CNN News and ABC Radio. I saw/heard on all. Don’t recall the year, though. They released their spy papers & the Rosenbergs were fingered within them.”

    In other words, you have nothing except some vague, half recalled memory. If that.

    Since you find it difficult to support your own assertions, allow me to give you a hand. I suspect I know what “papers” you’re refering to. Here’s a small hint. They didn’t originate from the “Iron Curtain” but in Washington DC. That ought to be enough to put you on the scent.

  36. 36.

    RW

    July 16, 2005 at 10:26 pm

    In other words, you have nothing except some vague, half recalled memory.

    Sorry I don’t have a link to Kos or atrios for you & that I watched the news, instead.

    Since you find it difficult to support your own assertions

    I asserted that I heard it on the news.
    A snarky person would question your comprehension, in return, but instead I’ll bid you adieu and wish you a good day.

  37. 37.

    W.B. Reeves

    July 17, 2005 at 2:37 am

    A hollow man.

  38. 38.

    demimondian

    July 17, 2005 at 8:23 am

    There’s an excellent book which spends a lot of time on the Rosenbergs, Karl Fuchs, and the Soviet ring in Los Alamos in the context of the development of the hydrogen bomb, Richard Rhodes’ _Dark Sun_. In reviewing the evidence presented there, I came to the conclusion that the Rosenbergs were guilty as sin, even though their eventual executions were political theatre.

  39. 39.

    W.B. Reeves

    July 17, 2005 at 1:55 pm

    Thanks for the book suggestion. I’ve read a lot about the case over the years but I haven’t come across this book. I’ll have to check it out. BTW, have you ever read any of the defenses of the Rosenbergs, such as “Invitation to An Inquest” by Walter and Miriam Schneer?

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