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You are here: Home / Politics / A Plame Contrast

A Plame Contrast

by John Cole|  July 17, 20058:58 am| 71 Comments

This post is in: Politics

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Frank Rich and ‘Known Facts’:

WELL, of course, Karl Rove did it. He may not have violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, with its high threshold of criminality for outing a covert agent, but there’s no doubt he trashed Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame. We know this not only because of Matt Cooper’s e-mail, but also because of Mr. Rove’s own history. Trashing is in his nature, and bad things happen, usually through under-the-radar whispers, to decent people (and their wives) who get in his way. In the 2000 South Carolina primary, John McCain’s wife, Cindy, was rumored to be a drug addict (and Senator McCain was rumored to be mentally unstable). In the 1994 Texas governor’s race, Ann Richards found herself rumored to be a lesbian. The implication that Mr. Wilson was a John Kerry-ish girlie man beholden to his wife for his meal ticket is of a thematic piece with previous mud splattered on Rove political adversaries. The difference is that this time Mr. Rove got caught.

Ann Coulter and ‘Known Facts’:

Karl Rove was right. The real story about Joseph C. Wilson IV was not that Bush lied about Saddam seeking uranium in Africa; the story was Clown Wilson and his paper-pusher wife, Valerie Plame. By foisting their fantasies of themselves on the country, these two have instigated a massive criminal investigation, the result of which is: The only person who has demonstrably lied and possibly broken the law is Joseph Wilson.

So the obvious solution is to fire Karl Rove.

Clown Wilson thrust himself on the nation in July 2003 when he wrote an op-ed for The New York Times claiming Bush had lied in his State of the Union address. He said Bush was referring to Wilson’s own “report” when Bush said: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

But that is not what Wilson says he found! Thus, his column had the laughably hubristic title, “What I Didn’t Find in Africa.” (Once I couldn’t find my car for hours after a Dead show. I call the experience: “What I Didn’t Find in San Francisco.”)

Discuss.

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Reader Interactions

71Comments

  1. 1.

    db

    July 17, 2005 at 9:13 am

    Couldn’t you have contrasted Rich’s comments against someone with more than half a brain?

    I can’t do anything else but laugh at Bitch Coulter (if she’s into changing people’s first names, I’ll Plame that Game too).

    As for Rich, yes, Rove’s MO is to be dirty and pull out the gay card on anybody; but hardly a reason to convict somebody …. but the company one does lead many to believe something is rotten in Denmark.

  2. 2.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 9:17 am

    Newsflash dems: MOST AMERICAN DON’T KNOW WHO KARL ROVE IS. He could have killed Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame and it would make no difference politically. As it is, he’s done NOTHING WRONG, and even if he did, we’re at war and shouldn’t be looking at it right now. Leave what little there is for the historians.

    Long story short: it just doesn’t matter what happened here. As usual, you’re hung up on some abstract notion of “truth” and “right and wrong” while you’re ignoring the real truth in front of your nose: THIS IS NOT A BIG ISSUE FOR PEOPLE WHO DON’T LIVE ON THE UPPER WEST SIDE.

    Try finding some issues Americans care about: morals, values, the flag burning amendment, fighting the filth on t.v. Get behind “Natalee’s Law”, new legislation to deal with crimes committed against Americans while they’re on vacation. Stop opposing school prayer. These are the issues that matter to Americans, not your “scandals”.

  3. 3.

    Rick

    July 17, 2005 at 9:19 am

    Ooooh, that Frank Bitch is so mean! And clings to a corpse. This evens things out for certain rightwingers necrophilia regarding Vince Foster.

    Cordially…

  4. 4.

    Doug

    July 17, 2005 at 9:20 am

    Shouldn’t Coulter be off killing Muslims and/or forcibly converting them to Christianity?

  5. 5.

    Patrick

    July 17, 2005 at 9:21 am

    No matter how much the dems wish it, this is a non-story and Rove will not be frog-marched out of the White House. Shoo, run along now, children.

  6. 6.

    Stormy70

    July 17, 2005 at 9:27 am

    I’m starting to have fun watching all the furious spinning on the Left. So many theories, so little info.

  7. 7.

    db

    July 17, 2005 at 9:28 am

    No matter how much the dems wish it, this is a non-story and Rove will not be frog-marched out of the White House.

    If it’s a non-story, why is the Right so hostile about it? They are just as guilty of the left of making it into a story by coming out with some of their leaks and leaks about leaks, etc. And a “they started it first” defense does not explain why the right has spun this thing just as much as the left.

  8. 8.

    capelza

    July 17, 2005 at 9:35 am

    Talked to my mother who lives on a farm outside of a small burg in the hills of southern Missouri last night. A former Goldwater Republican, now pretty apolitical at 66, she knows who Karl Rove is and has her opinions. Let’s just say, she is unimpressed by him or his antics. Actually she thinks he needs to go. Found that pretty telling. We’re talking about someone without cable and has never heard of a blog.

    It is wrong to think that this is not getting heard in the “heartland”.

  9. 9.

    Sem

    July 17, 2005 at 9:38 am

    C’mon people, there’s a reason for the new adjective ‘Rovian’ which of course means underhanded. By the way, a cum stain on a blue dress is a non-story.

  10. 10.

    Patrick

    July 17, 2005 at 9:39 am

    If it’s a non-story, why is the Right so hostile about it? They are just as guilty of the left of making it into a story by coming out with some of their leaks and leaks about leaks, etc. And a “they started it first” defense does not explain why the right has spun this thing just as much as the left.

    db, I don’t see a lot of hostility on the right. Not that there isn’t any, in the usual pockets, but the majority of what I’ve seen has been analysis.

    Our host is a perfect example of logical discourse. In this case…

  11. 11.

    Sem

    July 17, 2005 at 9:40 am

    C’mon people, there’s a reason for the new adjective ‘Rovian’ which of course means underhanded. By the way, a cum stain on a blue dress is a non-story.

  12. 12.

    db

    July 17, 2005 at 9:43 am

    blue dress is a non-story.

    …. not if it’s my blue dress that you got it on!!! Then that’s a big story and I’ll be coming after you and then you know what…. I’ll make you pay the dry cleaning bill.

  13. 13.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 9:44 am

    Face it, no one cares. Until Dems get serious about the issues that matter to regular Americans — issues that deal with morals and values not year-old “he said she said” — they won’t make any gains.

  14. 14.

    Christie S.

    July 17, 2005 at 9:49 am

    Try finding some issues Americans care about: morals, values, the flag burning amendment, fighting the filth on t.v. Get behind “Natalee’s Law”, new legislation to deal with crimes committed against Americans while they’re on vacation. Stop opposing school prayer. These are the issues that matter to Americans, not your “scandals”.

    Morals: Whose?

    Values: See above.

    Filth on TV: Can’t comment as I can’t remember the last time I watched it. When I got my new ‘puter, it had a DVD player so I even watch my movies on it. The TV is for my daughter’s DDR game.

    Flag burning: non-issue to me. Waste of expensive congressional time. If my neighbor burns a flag in protest, I’ll simply send my dog to Shyte on his lawn. I think that’s fair.

    What’s Natalee’s Law and do politicians believe they have a way to prevent crime in, or punish citizens of, a foreign nation? Cool trick, if you can do it.

    School Prayer: I send my child to school to learn reading, writing and arithmetic. I take my child to church to learn about God. If she wants to pray during school, she’s allowed to but its not required. I prefer to keep it that way.

    Just my take as an American.

  15. 15.

    db

    July 17, 2005 at 9:49 am

    Until Dems get serious about the issues that matter to regular Americans — issues that deal with morals and values not year-old “he said she said” — they won’t make any gains.

    Well, maybe you have a point but this whole thing could certainly be spun by the Dems as an entire indictment on the morals/values of the current administration (if the Dems were only able to hire a Machiavellian monster like Rove to help them on this… like who was that guy who found the “RATS” ad?)

  16. 16.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 9:55 am

    “What’s Natalee’s Law and do politicians believe they have a way to prevent crime in, or punish citizens of, a foreign nation?”

    More or less — Santorum’s staff is working on it. Hopefully, it will reach a committee by September.

  17. 17.

    Andrew J. Lazarus

    July 17, 2005 at 10:01 am

    ah, right-wing guys, I think DougJ is spoofing you

  18. 18.

    Halffasthero

    July 17, 2005 at 10:38 am

    I am getting to the point where I want to know what Fitzgerald has. The spins onthel eft and right are getting to be more of the same. Rove is being awfully damn quiet though. Not that I am sorry to see that. I won’t rehash since I have voice my opinion of him more than once.

  19. 19.

    Bob

    July 17, 2005 at 10:38 am

    db, that CIA memo that apparently turned up in Gannon’s mitts may very well have cum stains on it. So who’s the source of the, er, leak?

  20. 20.

    Halffasthero

    July 17, 2005 at 10:39 am

    By the way, what is Darrel’s take on all of this?

  21. 21.

    Tim F

    July 17, 2005 at 10:47 am

    Is that Patwick from the Atlantic forums? I see that special ed got out early today.

  22. 22.

    ppGaz

    July 17, 2005 at 10:53 am

    Coulter went to a Dead concert?

  23. 23.

    Geronimo

    July 17, 2005 at 11:24 am

    John, are you equating Frank Rich and Ann Coulter? Are you saying that Rich and Coulter are just two sides to a confusing story and that both could be right or wrong?

  24. 24.

    ppGaz

    July 17, 2005 at 11:36 am

    What’s worse, Geronimo, the original article doesn’t even mention the true thrust of Rich’s piece. Not even in the ballpark.

    When the game is to frame …. couch the story in a particular way …. one takes tossaway snippets and builds a new whole from them.

    Rich’s piece was about the fact that the reason we’re here talking about this is Uranium. The uranium that made its way into administration spew during the buildup to war, but never actually existed.

    We’ve passed the Manchurian Candidate level of reality now. We are at the point where irrelevant minutiae actually overtake the story, and become the story.

    Desperately afraid that Wilson’s exposure of the nonexistence of the Iraq nuclear “threat” would derail their war train, these turds went on a Wilson smear campaign. That’s what happened here. That’s why we’re here.

    That’s what Rich wrote about. “Known facts” were not the thrust. The evil mendacity of this administration was the thrust. So distrustful were these turds of the American people, that they worked furiously to make sure that the people never really had a chance to stand back and question the runup to war. Keep them busy, distracted, confused.

    There really aren’t words to describe how bad, how dishonest, and how evil these assholes are. There are no words.

  25. 25.

    Jon H

    July 17, 2005 at 11:44 am

    “John, are you equating Frank Rich and Ann Coulter? Are you saying that Rich and Coulter are just two sides to a confusing story and that both could be right or wrong?”

    I think the point is to show the difference between Rich, an actual journalist and thinker, and Coulter, a gradeschool short-bus harpy.

  26. 26.

    Rick

    July 17, 2005 at 11:48 am

    Couldn’t you have contrasted Rich’s comments against someone with more than half a brain?

    It would be terribly unfair to Frank Rich to contrast his comments against someone with still greater multiples of his own intelligence.

    Cordially…

  27. 27.

    ppGaz

    July 17, 2005 at 11:53 am

    Couldn’t you have contrasted Rich’s comments against someone with more than half a brain?

    Couldn’t he have made at least a passing reference to the actual point of Rich’s article?

  28. 28.

    db

    July 17, 2005 at 12:04 pm

    It would be terribly unfair to Frank Rich to contrast his comments against someone with still greater multiples of his own intelligence.

    Well, Coulter certainly is not that. I would like to have seen a quote from a half-way intelligent source on the right. Coulter is the strawbitch for the left.

  29. 29.

    Harley

    July 17, 2005 at 12:15 pm

    Putting up contrasting viewpoints re Rove is a peachy idea. But as you may have noticed, using Ann Coulter to represent one side is less than peachy.

    But even worse. You read Ann Coulter??

  30. 30.

    jcricket

    July 17, 2005 at 12:16 pm

    Shorter Ann Coulter: I know you are, but what am I. or, I’m rubber you’re glue…

    Perhaps she and Mark Furhmann could get married. That would be like the Gest & Minelli of the right :-)

  31. 31.

    Bernard Yomtov

    July 17, 2005 at 12:17 pm

    Ann Coulter?

    Who’s next? Limbaugh? Tony “I never heard of David Duke” Perkins?

  32. 32.

    Sojourner

    July 17, 2005 at 12:24 pm

    THIS IS NOT A BIG ISSUE FOR PEOPLE WHO DON’T LIVE ON THE UPPER WEST SIDE.

    Yeh, us folk in the red states are totally for outing CIA agents and blowing the covers of those who worked for the same CIA-fronted company as Plame.

    Sorry but a lot of us in the heartland aren’t as stupid as you are.

  33. 33.

    jcricket

    July 17, 2005 at 12:26 pm

    The ‘known facts’, as I see it:

    Evidence pointing to Rove’s innocence: Rove’s leaked grand jury testimony (which mostly consists of “some other guy musta done it” and “I can’t recall”) and various right-wingers insistence this is a “non-story” or that Joe Wilson is a “bad bad man”.

    Evidence pointing to Rove’s guilt, and likely implicating Libby, and other administration officials: Cooper’s testimony and public statements, Novak’s testimony and public statements, Miller’s lawyers insistence that Miller hasn’t received a waiver from her source, the initial CIA request of the investigation (and ongoing support for it), Joe Wilson’s public statements, the word of at least four of Valerie Plame’s co-workers, Fitzgerald’s ongoing investigation (2 years now), Fitzgerald’s request for phone logs from AF1, the sudden silence of Bush and McLellan (in contrast to their absolute denials of involvement for the past 2 years), the actual laws in question, and, most tellingly, the absolutely furious spin/character assassination machine the right has geared up (“look, over there, a red herring”).

    I think it’s not too far-fetched to say that when Ann “Canada sent troops to Vietnam” Coulter starts talking about “known facts” the right is in trouble.

    I think I agree with Frank Rich, that the reason the right is so furiously trying make this story go away is that it’s bigger than Rove breaking a single law (even a serious one, at that). It’s bigger than Rove and Libby breaking the law to discredit Joe Wilson. It quite possibly opens the door for re-examining a host of other pre-war evidence and justifications. Not to mention gives the press a reason to discount just about everything that now comes out of the Bush White House’s mouth for the next 3 years (of course, one could argue the press should be more skeptical with every elected official).

  34. 34.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 12:28 pm

    Ann Coulter rocks!

    I’m still laughing over that last line about “What I Didn’t Find in San Francisco”. How can you ever PROVE that something isn’t there just because you didn’t find it?

    As usual, Coulter puts Rich to shame. He can be clever but he lacks Coulter’s “laugh out loud” wit and her common sense.

  35. 35.

    ppGaz

    July 17, 2005 at 12:41 pm

    Oddly … maybe because it’s a hot Sunday, and Tiger Woods has taken the oxygen out of the day …. this thread has become sort of a microcosm of America.

    Read the Rich article in its entirety. It says one thing and one thing only: Your government deliberately and cleverly (perhaps, too cleverly) worked to trash the image and the life of two public servants solely for the purpose of protecting a dishonest and manipulative runup to war. There’s no mountain of spin on that topic; it doesn’t lend itself to spin. It’s just the truth, and out in plain sight. All the rest .. the Wilsonia, the Plameiana, the Cooperisms, the Millerdom, the Roveworld …. is just cover. Don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

    And then, there is this thread. Coulter! Rich! Liberals with buggers in their noses! Over there!

    Congratulations, Republicans. You’ve pulled it off. Political truth trumps all other truth. Up is down. You have total control of the airspace. Ends justify any means. Nobody can be held accountable for anything.

    Savor the moment. This is the pinnacle of your accomplishments. Victory is complete. The liberal insurgency is in its last throes. Mission accomplished.

  36. 36.

    Frank

    July 17, 2005 at 12:58 pm

    ppGaz- Awesome

  37. 37.

    Andrei

    July 17, 2005 at 3:15 pm

    “Face it, no one cares. Until Dems get serious about the issues that matter to regular Americans — issues that deal with morals and values not year-old “he said she said” — they won’t make any gains.”

    As a thought experiment for Rick, Stormy and now DougJ:

    When justifying a pre-emptive war to thwart terrorism to it’s people, one that costs both billions of dollars and the lives of U.S. security forces, should the U.S. government operate as an honest broker is making the case for war?

    Is that a “serious” issue enough for you? I’d say that’s a serious enough issue for normal Americans. If it is (and I think it is), then please do us all a favor: Stop with the useless side stepping of the issue with the name calling and finger pointing, and start putting forth the case and facts around how we went to war and why it is the correct foreign policy for this nation.

    What many on the left see here is a deeper issue (as ppGaz points out) than Rove leaking anything is the run up to the war. Justifying going into a PRE-EMPTIVE war to stop terrorism based on an imminent threat. Many of us suspected the case before the war started, but now its seemingly becoming real that our fears were justified. The real issue many of us see that is at the heart of this whole is the Iraq War, why we are fighting it and how we were led into it, is whether the Bush administration was telling us the truth about why Iraq. (As opposed to Afghanistan, North Korea, Iraq, or any despot in Africa.) In all honesty, why Iraq? How does waging war against Iraq fight, stop, thwart or otherwise disassemble terrorism?

    The Rove/Cooper/Wilson/Plame/Miller part of the story appears to be a small piece in that larger issue. It appears to be the thread that ones pulls that unravels the sweater. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, but that’s what it ‘s starting to feel like. And John Cole might even want to acknowledge that himself, as he’s been skirting that deeper potential issue so far.

    Maybe we can agree on this: If the American public was lied to or mislead into this war, we all need to do our patriotic duty and stand up to our government, regardless of partisanship. If we were not lied to or misled into this war, those of us against or dubious of the war need to stiffen up and get the job done.

    Are any of you on the right willing to take that pledge? The left, willing to take that pledge?

    Given the recent past, I’d have to say I’ve seen more dems and leftists willing to go along with the war than rightists were to think they were misled. At this stage of the game however, the stakes are serious and high enough that people need to consider the larger picture than the junior high school name calling tactics offered by DougJ, regardless of their desired outcome.

  38. 38.

    ppGaz

    July 17, 2005 at 3:47 pm

    Maybe we can agree on this: If the American public was lied to or mislead into this war, we all need to do our patriotic duty and stand up to our government, regardless of partisanship. If we were not lied to or misled into this war, those of us against or dubious of the war need to stiffen up and get the job done.

    I applaud the good intentions, but it’s too late for that choice. The job has to get “done” regardless of why and how we got there, IMO.

    First, we hold these lying sons of bitches accountable. We stuff the “world better off without Saddam” noise up their asses.

    The world is not better off, and Saddam has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of homicidal despots out there, and we don’t pay any attention to them.

    More importantly, it’s what’s been done to our country that really matters. The government has played the people for fools, has betrayed the trust that was — rightly or wrongly — placed in them. So in terms of the state of democracy in our own country — it’s been hijacked.

    Additionally, the world is not safer, vis-a-vis terrorism, than it was. Iraq as a WOT strategy was a loser from the get-go, going back to three full years ago. It was never a good idea, and will not be seen by history to have been a good idea, in that context.

    All of that said, the country is going to have to do some serious growing up. We have to look past the dishonesty and betrayal of these terrible leaders we have, and do the right thing for the country. Not for them, for the country. And that is, to do the best we can in Iraq and try to leave behind a stable situation. To coin an abused phrase, that’s going to be Hard Work.

    At the same that we are doing this, we have to be sure that the lying bastards in DC don’t get away with avoiding accountability.

    Again, Hard Work.

    But doable.

  39. 39.

    Andrei

    July 17, 2005 at 3:58 pm

    “I applaud the good intentions, but it’s too late for that choice. The job has to get “done” regardless of why and how we got there, IMO.”

    I can’t really say I disagree. 8^)

    So it appears an easy pledge to make for the right side since they really can’t lose on the war part. Right? The job gets done (and we still need to have a honest discussion on what that entails) regardless. All the GOP could lose is a little credibility in the form of their chosen political leaders at this moment in time.

    I think it’s safe to assume the party can withstand the hit, as the American public is very forgiving of a political party, recognizing it’s the person in charge, not the partisanship. (Witness the election of Reagan so close after the fall of Nixon.)

    So I guess I’m saying I still think the pledge has merit.

  40. 40.

    sal

    July 17, 2005 at 4:17 pm

    I’ve written before, but will repeat. It doesn’t matter if Wilson is the worst lying traitorous scum around. Rove & crew went after him by attacking a third party. I don’t like George, but I don’t take it out on Laura.That’s the tactic of a coward and a scumbag.

  41. 41.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 4:23 pm

    “When justifying a pre-emptive war to thwart terrorism to it’s people, one that costs both billions of dollars and the lives of U.S. security forces, should the U.S. government operate as an honest broker is making the case for war?”

    Not necessarily. Sometimes the cause is more important than the “truth”. This is one of them. We HAD to get Saddam out. We had no choice. The public might have lacked the stomach for it without a little exaggeration on claims of WMD, etc.

    Sometimes the ends justify the means. This is one of them.

    Look, freedom is on the march. If a few white lies had to be told for this to happen, so be it.

  42. 42.

    ppgaz

    July 17, 2005 at 4:57 pm

    We HAD to get Saddam out.

    Nonsense. No more so than we “had to get out” any of the scores of sociopathic despots who have walked the world stage in the last 50 years, or will “have to get out” in the next 50. Many of those despots will server our interests, as they have in the past, and we’ll use them, as we used Saddam Hussein, as it serves our interests. A dirty business, but necessary, at times.

    Hussein was no threat to anything outside of Iraq in 2003. He had not even the capacity to resist our invasion in any effective way. He had little or no WMD capability, and what he did have, he had no capacity to deliver outside his borders.

    But most importantly, had had no motive for any such exploits. His agenda was to steal his country’s oil money and put it in the bank accounts of his family and cronies. That’s it, his entire game. All the rest was just bluster and bluff.

    Your assertion is just horseshit.

  43. 43.

    Far North

    July 17, 2005 at 5:49 pm

    I agree with Anderew, I think DougJ is commenting with a basic tongue in cheek mocking of the wingnuts.

    .

  44. 44.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 6:21 pm

    You’re right I’m mocking wingnuts, Far North. LEFT wingnuts like you.

  45. 45.

    ppgaz

    July 17, 2005 at 6:41 pm

    “When justifying a pre-emptive war to thwart terrorism to it’s people, one that costs both billions of dollars and the lives of U.S. security forces, should the U.S. government operate as an honest broker is making the case for war?”

    Not necessarily. Sometimes the cause is more important than the “truth”.

    No mockery there. The problem is, you’ve just ended the American Experiment.

    See, when you bend the truth and hide some facts and display others in order to deceive the people, you don’t have democracy any more. Democracy only exists when the people are trusted with the choices that need to be made. Democracy only works when the leaders have enough respect for the people to LET THEM BE WRONG, if that’s what the leaders think. When the leaders decide that what they want is more important than what the people might want if they knew all the facts, and then arrange the information accordingly, democracy has been circumvented. Trust is lost. Policy becomes tilted toward dogma, and loyalty.

    That’s what you have right now in the United States. While these assholes pimp “democracy” in a land (Arabia) where democracy has never existed, as if it could be shipped in via container ship, they piss on their own democracy here in the United States. And since not all of the people are going to swallow the kool aid, it is also necessary to turn the people on each other. Which is also exactly what you see now in this country.

    The people running this country are evil. They are liars, and they are demagogues.

    Plame-Wilson-Rove-Novak is just a symptom. The disease is to the bone, and you haven’t seen the worst of it yet, trust me.

  46. 46.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 6:41 pm

    Look, libs, one more thing and then I have to go:

    If Rove is convicted, he’ll be pardoned and go back to business as usual. What will you have accomplished with this witch hunt then other than convincing Americans that you’re a buch of wingnuts?

  47. 47.

    merlallen

    July 17, 2005 at 6:46 pm

    I read a couple of Mann Coulter’s columns and laughed my ass off. I stopped laughing when I realized she was serious. I honestly thought she was going for some nasty satire.

  48. 48.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 8:50 pm

    One of you “big brain” liberals answer this for me: what’s the point in trying to convict Rove when he’ll surely be pardoned? Just a giant waste of time, nothing more.

  49. 49.

    LGS

    July 17, 2005 at 9:05 pm

    DougJ said,
    “Look, libs, one more thing and then I have to go:

    If Rove is convicted, he’ll be pardoned and go back to business as usual. What will you have accomplished with this witch hunt then other than convincing Americans that you’re a buch of wingnuts?”

    Truth.

  50. 50.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 9:12 pm

    LGS, the truth has many versions, not just the liberal the MSM is always pushing. There are all sorts of things you lefties accept as truth — evolution, global warming, etc. — that are only theories. How is this any different from that?

  51. 51.

    Sojourner

    July 17, 2005 at 9:54 pm

    LGS, the truth has many versions, not just the liberal the MSM is always pushing. There are all sorts of things you lefties accept as truth — evolution, global warming, etc. — that are only theories. How is this any different from that?

    They’re based on facts that can be validated. The very thing this administration is trying to cover up.

    Anyone who thinks that giving up truth because the means justify the end is a fool.

  52. 52.

    DougJ

    July 17, 2005 at 10:07 pm

    “They’re based on facts that can be validated.”

    By whom? The liberal MSM, left-wing scientists (the ones who perpetrated the farce of evolution for the last century), activist judges? That’s the way liberals like it, but there are other ideas about what truth can mean.

  53. 53.

    Sojourner

    July 17, 2005 at 10:18 pm

    That’s the way liberals like it, but there are other ideas about what truth can mean.

    Interesting. I thought the righties believed in absolutes?

  54. 54.

    Andrei

    July 17, 2005 at 11:16 pm

    I say give DougJ his own thread like you did Darrell, John.

    I mean really… They are on your side of the political fence, don’t forget. Make sure they get a more prominent voice to be heard man! Why let them wallow in the obscurity of the comments page? Put DougJ’s name up in lights like you did Darrell!

    Who’s with me?

  55. 55.

    DougJ

    July 18, 2005 at 7:44 am

    “They are on your side of the political fence”

    Not really. I enjoy John’s blog immensely, but he’s a bit of a RINO. Certainly, he’s closer to Bill Clinton politically than to an actual conservative like me.

  56. 56.

    Mike

    July 18, 2005 at 8:10 am

    “DougJ said,
    “Look, libs, one more thing and then I have to go:

    If Rove is convicted, he’ll be pardoned and go back to business as usual. What will you have accomplished with this witch hunt then other than convincing Americans that you’re a buch of wingnuts?”

    Truth. ”

    BS.
    This ain’t about truth, it’s about trying to win one (at LEAST one) over on the evil Rethuglicans. Liberals keep getting their ass handed to them in elections so rather than moderate their positions, they lash out at those that don’t group-think like themselves. THEIR policies can’t possibly be WRONG so instead the people must have all been mislead/lied to/stupid/cheated. That’s the only explanation. The machines were rigged, the facts were fudged, the media didn’t do their job, etc., etc. Just one excuse after another. Play the blame game rather to do the hard work of acutally going out into the nether regions of the country and finding out why people are voting the way they are.

    Here’s the thing, I frankly couldn’t care less about Rove and there’s always the possibility he DID do something wrong, though I still think it’s too early to tell. But I hope that in the end nothing comes of this. Why? So I can gleefully watch the Kos Krowd and others of their ilk gnash their teeth in frustration once again, and hope that maybe some of them will get so frustrated they’ll actually go through with it and move to Canada or France. And what will the country lose if this happens?
    Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

  57. 57.

    Slartibartfast

    July 18, 2005 at 8:12 am

    but he’s a bit of a RINO

    I’d suggest that John is a Republican as we ought to be, and it’s the RNC that’s RINO. There’s been a serious departure from basic Republican tenets of late, which is why I no longer am one.

  58. 58.

    DougJ

    July 18, 2005 at 8:21 am

    Mike, I wasn’t the one who said the answer was “Truth”. That was said by one of the liberals in reply to what I said which is that Rove will be pardoned if convicted, so what’s the point of any of this? I still haven’t seen a good reply to that answer.

    Why should we waste millions of dollars of taxpayer’s money on this case when there’s no way anyone will end up in jail? Wait, I know the answer: liberals just like spending taxpayer money.

  59. 59.

    capelza

    July 18, 2005 at 9:17 am

    Why should we waste millions of dollars of taxpayer’s money on this case when there’s no way anyone will end up in jail? Wait, I know the answer: liberals just like spending taxpayer money.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA…..deep breath…HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA.

    Dang, I said the exact same thing all through the mid late nineties…only it was Republicans spending wasting all the money.

  60. 60.

    Larry

    July 18, 2005 at 10:25 am

    Ann Coulter?

    Whenever I see her spoor in a bookstore, I hide them behind Clinton’s biography.

    And in the library, they are lovingly placed deep in the lower corner stacks to poison rats.

  61. 61.

    DougJ

    July 18, 2005 at 10:38 am

    “Dang, I said the exact same thing all through the mid late nineties…only it was Republicans spending wasting all the money.”

    Clinton lied under oath, disgraced the office of the presidency, and by all rights he should be rotting in a jail cell right now. What Rove or Libby may have done in this case is NOTHING compared to Clinton’s crimes, NOTHING, NADA.

    What a ridiculous comparison.

  62. 62.

    capelza

    July 18, 2005 at 10:57 am

    What Rove or Libby may have done in this case is NOTHING compared to Clinton’s crimes, NOTHING, NADA.

    What a ridiculous comparison.

    You have got to be a parody troll….

    Explain to me how an investigation of a failed land deal in Arkansas had anything, I repeat, anything to do with an illicit affair? How many millions were spent before Clinton did the dumbest thing in his life and lie to that GJ?

    So, when Fitzgerald deviates from his brief and decides that Rove or Libbey or whoever should be investigated for some personal moral failing, will you lay off the CAPS and agree that they should rot in jail because they lied about it?

  63. 63.

    DougJ

    July 18, 2005 at 11:15 am

    “So, when Fitzgerald deviates from his brief and decides that Rove or Libbey or whoever should be investigated for some personal moral failing, will you lay off the CAPS and agree that they should rot in jail because they lied about it?”

    If they lied under oath, like Clinton did, then should be prosecuted for perjury, just as Clinton should have. I STRONGLY doubt, however, that either Rove or Libby did like under oath.

  64. 64.

    DougJ

    July 18, 2005 at 11:15 am

    “like under oath” should have been “lied under oath”. This liberal jihad against Bush has me so mad it’s affecting my typing ;)

  65. 65.

    Tractarian

    July 18, 2005 at 12:10 pm

    By whom? The liberal MSM, left-wing scientists (the ones who perpetrated the farce of evolution for the last century), activist judges? That’s the way liberals like it, but there are other ideas about what truth can mean.

    That sounds like relativism to me. If you want to reject science and reason that is up to you, I guess. You and the other fundamentalists will have us thrown back to the stone age where we can live “pure” lives along with bin Laden and the Taliban.

    Look, freedom is on the march. If a few white lies had to be told for this to happen, so be it.

    You think the Bushies lied to get support for the war? That’s a bold statement. I don’t believe they “lied” though I do think they exaggerated and misled. I was in favor of the war, but I’m not in favor of the way the Bushies went about fighting it – undermanned, underequipped, underplanned, and with no exit strategy. Throw in the moral relativism of approving torture and you can see why even pro-war moderates like myself are disgusted with this administration.

    As for Rove, I really couldn’t give a shit. Let Fitzgerald do his work, and lets drop the partisan conjecture on both sides. (BTW, those who aren’t blinded by partisanship will realize that it is not DEMS who are going after Rove, it is the independent counsel, Fitzgerald. If you have a problem with the witchhunt of Rove, take it up with him, don’t blame it on the “liberal media” like you do with everything else.)

  66. 66.

    waddayaknow

    July 18, 2005 at 1:07 pm

    Coulter: What a Maroon.

  67. 67.

    Rusty Shackleford

    July 18, 2005 at 3:46 pm

    I really thought that DougJ was just satire – I had no idea he was actually serious.

    That is some funk’d up sh1t he’s peddling.

  68. 68.

    Rusty Shackleford

    July 18, 2005 at 3:55 pm

    Try finding some issues Americans care about:
    – morals/values
    – the flag burning amendment
    – fighting the filth on t.v.
    – “Natalee’s Law”, new legislation to deal with crimes committed against Americans while they’re on vacation.
    – Stop opposing school prayer.

    These are the issues that matter to Americans, not your “scandals”.

    This has to be one of the funniest posts I’ve ever read anywhere. Is there actually a proposed “Natalee’s Law”? What happened to the girl had nothing to do with her nationality.

    Why do people need to pray together? Are people so insecure that they need “a group” to validate everything they do? Anyway, God doesn’t like it when everyone speaks at the same time – it’s tough for Him to get everything straight.

    When was the last time a flag was burned? I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen but really? If you ignore these people while they’re exercising their “speech” do they really say anything? (Like the tree that falls in a forest…”

    If the things that DougJ mentioned really are what’s most important to the Fly-Over Americans, then this nation is phucked.

  69. 69.

    DougJ

    July 18, 2005 at 5:04 pm

    “Fly-Over Americans”

    You say things like that and you wonder why people in the heartland don’t trust the coastal elites.

  70. 70.

    DougJ

    July 18, 2005 at 6:01 pm

    And, yes, Senator Santorum’s staff is working on a “Natalee’s Law” that would toughen extradition laws involving crimes committed against Americans who are abroad.

  71. 71.

    Sojourner

    July 18, 2005 at 9:51 pm

    You say things like that and you wonder why people in the heartland don’t trust the coastal elites.

    Hey butthead: I live in the heartland. Not everybody out here is as stupid as you think we are. A lot of us out here understand something that you don’t: the elites are in Washington and they’re the guys you voted for.

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