I most certainly don’t feel as strongly about this as Rick Moran, but I really am not too terribly excited to see more pictures and videos released from the Abu Ghraib abuse incidents:
Lawyers for the Defense Department are refusing to cooperate with a federal judge’s order to release secret photographs and videotapes related to the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal.
The lawyers said in a letter sent to the federal court in Manhattan late Thursday that they would file a sealed brief explaining their reasons for not turning over the material, which they were to have released by yesterday.
The photographs were some of thousands turned over by Specialist Joseph M. Darby, the whistle-blower who exposed the abuse at Abu Ghraib by giving investigators computer disks containing photographs and videos of prisoners being abused, sexually humiliated and threatened with growling dogs.
The small number of the photographs released in spring 2004 provoked international outrage at the American military.
We know (roughly) what abuse happened, and while I disagree with the fact that only a few low level enlisted personnel (and one Guard Colonel) have been punished, I see no reason to flood the airwaves with another round of pictures. It can wait until after the prosecutions that are under way are complete.
SomeCallMeTim
We don’t know what happened. More than a few people think a couple of guys died, and the rest got lap dances. Purportedly, there’s video of women and young boys being raped, for example. Let the Administration supporters own what they voted for.
Doug
Yeah, if Limbaugh can get away with comparing Gitmo and Abu Ghraib to fraternity pranks, clearly we haven’t seen enough.
Tom Hintz
Torture apologist, treason apologist, exponential debt growth apologist, apologist for a president who lied us into a military catastrophe. These sure are the glory days for Bush supporters like Rick “Superhawk” Moran.
I wonder if any of them have ever taken the time to step back and consider what it is they’ve become? Their blind allegiance to the Kennebunkport Cowboy has sure taken them down some rather seamy paths.
DougJ
The last thing we need is more pictures to stir up the insurgency. We are at WAR. That must take priority over anything else, including pictures of what really and truly are glorified fraternity pranks. I was in a fraternity and believe me I saw much worse than what was in those pictures.
Jeff Maier
John,
You are wrong. I served years in the military and national security apparatus in government. I’d never challenge the good that our men and women accomplish or the risks and sacrifices that they endure.
However, even in our wonderful U.S. history, there is a long litany of abuses and they do ill service to this nation and its ideals. If more was known, earlier, and people of good conscience from all sides of the political spectrum spoke out in one voice, then our ideals would have been less tarnished along the way.
Now, is NOT the time for stonewalling. What good could come of it — truth, reflection, consequences and correction. Those are no petty goals. What this whole Abu Ghraib issues should not be is partisan.
Jeff Maier
DougJ,
Your fraternity must have been a state or federal correctional facility of some sort. I suspect that you’ve lived a relatively short, cramped life Mr. DJ.
DougJ
“Your fraternity must have been a state or federal correctional facility of some sort.”
Sometimes it seemed that way. ;)
SomeCallMeTim
I was in a fraternity and believe me I saw much worse than what was in those pictures.
So DougJ’s fraternity video-taped the rape of women and boys. Yeah, like we didn’t know that already.
John B.
How can some people still support this president? All signs point to SNAFU. Rape and sodomy? Sounds like frat pranks to me…or not. I think bush supporters look around and see nice healthy trees, but if they could see the whole forrest, they would see it burning down to a crisp.
eileen from OH
I’m torn about this. On the one hand, I really think we’ve pissed off enough Islamic terrorists already. Of course, they’re all “over there” and there’s only a finite number of them so I guess it doesn’t matter (sarcasm intended.) On the other hand, descriptions haven’t been enough to wake people up that these were more than pranks (unless you pledged at DougJ’s fraternity during ” ‘Trodes On The Nards Week”)
Putting this together with Bush’s threat to veto anything that limits the “whateverthehell we want to do” and it stinks.
I DO think that they should be shown in a private session, to the entire congress, slide show fashion, and see what they say when they come out the room.
eileen from OH
TIm F
I’m surprised that you can say that. The videos allegedly include shrieking children being sodomized in front of their parents. I would be surprised if you “know” that factum. You might suspect that it might be true, but you can’t honestly say that you know it. I guarantee you that our right-wing cohort doesn’t know it. So I say bullshit. The denial has to end.
If the president had held even a single commanding officer responsible for these abuses then he, and we, would be shielded from responsibility. One could say that America itself does not stand for torture and gratuitous abuse becaus we punished the people responsible for it.
Bush didn’t do that. He protected the commanders of torture, promoted them and had his Attorney General write legal opinions endorsing it. So why is Rick Moran hysterical about these pictures? Because in a better world this stuff wouldn’t reflect directly on the President and the people who support him. We don’t live in that world.
Steve
I think Congress has seen them already.
If I felt the administration had taken proper responsibility the first time, if apologists like Rush weren’t on the airwaves trying to make it all sound like a big joke, if so many people didn’t buy the party line that it was just a few “bad apples” behind it all, I would be all in favor of keeping the photographs under wraps and letting the administration handle things responsibly.
But that would be a fantasy world. In the real world, I think we have no choice, because only the graphic evidence will suffice to show the truth when so many apologists are busy distributing propaganda. I can’t agree with covering up atrocities that are being committed in my name.
Tom Hintz
John B. – According to the most recent polling Bush’s support is sinking to dangerously low levels. The cumulative effect of his repeated catastrophic mistakes plus the growing perception that he is a less than honest and honorable man are taking their toll. One can only wonder what the effect on what remains of Bush’s support will be when Fitzgerald begins indicting various high-ranking members of his regime for perjury, obstruction, and good old fashioned treason. And despite what all the usual right-wing hacks and Bush apologists have been saying, there will be indictments.
Oh, and for those who actually believe that the Bush administration is defying a court ruling on the Abu Ghraib photos out of strategic military considerations, don’t make me laugh. This is an act of sheer political desperation from people who know what another round of torture revelations will do to what reamins of this horrible president’s image.
Ipsos Poll: Bush approval @ 42%, lowest yet for this poll.
http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/
American Reseach Poll: Bush approval at 42%, tied for lowest yet for this poll.
http://americanresearchgroup.com
Zogby Poll: Bush approval at 43%, lowest yet for this poll.
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm.?ID=1007
Joe Albanese
If some of the comments here are any indication, there is a real need to have more photos released. Fraternity pranks? Sunlight is the best antiseptic. Yes.. in the short run it might stir up some trouble.. but perhaps in the long run, if the USA is seen as truly wanting to correct its wrongs then it may work to our favor to be completely open and honest about this.
We are in a war of ideas… one likely to last decades. We have to win that war by being totally ethical, fair and reasonable in our dealings with the Muslim world. It is the only way we have a chance of reversing the steady increase of hatred towards the US and the West that the Bin Ladens of the world exploit. Lets not continue to give him amunition. Lets get back to what makes America great.
Sojourner
If the fraternity prankster crowd really believe this, they should be the first to demand that the evidence be made available to us all.
What are you guys afraid of?
norbizness
I always like to read an article that begins “Lawyers for the Defense Department are refusing to cooperate with a federal judge’s order…” because it reminds me that lawyers for the Defense Department are a co-equal, if not stronger, branch of government. Remember, we’re at war until the people whose unreviewable decision it was to say we’re at war tell us we’re not at war, and don’t you colonists forget it!
Mike S
The fact that the talk radio wing of the GOP has been able to convince their listeners that nothing bad happened makes it neccessarry for these pictures to come out. I’d rather they didn’t as well but we, as a country, are responsible for this. We need to confront it and so far we haven’t.
Bob
Clearly, there are large segments of the American public who continue to deny the bestial nature of its Presidency. Bush was a cruel, self-hating little boy who grew up to become a cruel, self-hating little man. His pathology, and the pathologies of those around him, produced the pustule on humanity known as the Iraq War. That’s why Rove was so against the concept of offering therapy for pathological minds. They’re all pathological.
For historical parallels, see: HIDDEN HITLER.
Jack Arthur
Has anybody else had their posts deleted on Rick Moran’s site? It would appear that the self-styled “Superhawk” can dish it out but can’t take it.
Look at it this way, there are 19 responses here to Moran’s erstwhile revelations, but almost no action on his own appropriately entitled “Right Wing Nuthouse.” Looks like Little Ricky can’t take the heat.
Try it. See what happens.
Bernard Yomtov
John, you are wrong, wrong, wrong.
Do you really think it’s just fine for the Administration to refuse to comply with a court order because they don’t want to? That way lies fascism. And that’s not hyperbole.
It may or may not be a good idea to release the photos. Frankly I think they should be released, and shoved in the faces of those who think the whole thing is just fraternity hazing. Let’s let people see what happened, and then evaluate it, and determine what the appropriate response is.
jg
I bet these same people who think this is nothing but a fraternity prank bristle whenever they see pictures of US soldiers sitting in a cage submerged up to the neck with rats swimming around them while they were prisoners in Vietnam. Gitmo is in the Cariibean but Vietnam is in the south pacific. Too outstanding destination spots.
John B.
One can only wonder what will happen if the Democrats win back the majority in the house or senate in 2006…
Vic Morrow
John B: What will happen if the Democrats win back the House and/or Senate? We’ll impeach Bush’s sorry ass on so many charges you’ll need a notebook to keep track of them all.
John B.
Oh good that’s what I was hoping will happen.
DougJ
Between this and the Valerie Plume investigation, the lefties must have their hands full with tempests in teapots.
Jon H
DougJ writes: ” I was in a fraternity and believe me I saw much worse than what was in those pictures.”
I bet you did. Did they use a ball gag on you, or just some rolled-up underwear?
Bruce Moomaw
Totally off target, John. Andrew Sullivan is on target when he asks the obvious question: if these photos don’t show anything significant and new, then why is the White House so frantic to cover them up?
“A few weeks ago, I predicted on the Chris Matthews Show that more photographs of the Abu Ghraib abuses and torture would be released by the end of last month. After all, a judge had ruled in favor of the ACLU’s request for the materials. The government obeys the law of the land, doesn’t it? Not in this administration, which has, by presidential memo, declared the president above the law in fighting the war on terror. Now they have deployed one last, desperate tactic to keep the real truth about Abu Ghraib from reaching the public. The Bush administration first argued that dissemination of the photos would violate the Geneva Conventions. Ahem. When that failed, they argued in a sealed brief to the court that the photos ‘could result in harm to individuals.’ Like the soldiers and commanders responsible for abusing prisoners? Or the political masters who made such abuse legal? Look: I know we are at war and these photographs could inflame passions further. But they could also give the lie to the administration’s claim that the prison was only the site for a handful of rogue soldiers making up rules on the night shift. They could give the lie to the notion that what happened at Abu Ghraib was merely ‘frat-house rough-housing.’ They could show rape and murder and torture – with legal cover sanctioned by White House memos. They could finally force someone to take responsibility for what happened, and for the policies that are still in place allowing for abusive treatment of prisoners. We can fight a war and remain a humane, law-abiding culture as well. We’ll soon see if we still live in a country in which the president is subject to the law.”
Well, whether or not they show sanction by White House officials, they most definitely show rape and torture. These, remember, are the photos that Rumsfeld called “far worse” than anything in the released batch of Abu Ghiraib photos, that left all the members of Congress who saw them white-faced, and that got Sen. Levin to endorse sitting on them for now. At a minimum, as Sullivan says, their release would keep Limbaugh and his loathsome ilk from continuing to guffaw that the whole thing was “frat-house rough-housing” — and they would make it impossible for the American people to keep the prisoner-torture issue on their political back burner. Which is very likely what the Bushites are afraid of.
Katherine
I’m sorry, but if the photos are going inflame the world so do the policies, and the policies have barely changed and will not change until more information is made public. The TV networks and to a lesser extent the dailies are too stupid to cover this without pictures. And we have FOIA for a reason, and a judge has said that FOIA requires their release. Out with ’em, no excuses.
And, this is as far as I can tell the first time they have defied a judge’s direct order. (They evade, and they break all sorts of laws as long as a judge hasn’t directly ordered them to stop.) If there are no consequences things are going to get much worse.
Bernard Yomtov
If nothing else will convince you you’re wrong, John, read Moran’s post more carefully. Do you really want to align yourself with that nutball?