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You are here: Home / Politics / War on Terror / War on Terror aka GSAVE® / This Is Terrible

This Is Terrible

by John Cole|  July 23, 200510:27 pm| 37 Comments

This post is in: War on Terror aka GSAVE®

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Turns out the kid the police shot dead in London the other day had nothing to do with the bombings:

Police announced Saturday that the man officers shot dead on a London subway car Friday morning was “not connected” with the bombing incidents of the day before.

“We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005,” police said in a statement.

“For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets,” the police said.

“The man emerged from a block of flats in the Stockwell area that were under police surveillance as part of the investigation into the incidents on Thursday 21st July,” the statement said.

“He was then followed by surveillance officers to the underground station. His clothing and behavior added to their suspicions,” the statement said.

It added that the circumstances that led to the man’s death were being investigated.

Plainclothes police chased a South Asian man into the crowded subway car Friday morning and shot him in front of terrified passengers, as the hunt intensified for four suspects believed to have carried out abortive bomb attacks on the transit system the day before.

Which makes me regret this statement:

Several of you have asked if I have any thoughts about the new London bombing attempts or the subsequent shooting. Other than “If he was a terrorist, shoot him again,” I have nothing to offer.

Why he was wearing a winter coat in July, ignored police, jumped a turnstile, asnd the rest of the rest of the described behaviors is anyone’s guess.

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37Comments

  1. 1.

    SomeCallMeTim

    July 23, 2005 at 10:40 pm

    Absent further information, give the police their due: they fucked up and they admitted it. Tragic, but move on.

  2. 2.

    SoCalJustice

    July 23, 2005 at 10:43 pm

    Man Shot Dead by British Police Was Innocent Brazilian Citizen

    I haven’t read it in any articles, but I heard he may have been an illegal alien and did not speak English (don’t know if that’s true), but it would easily explain why he was running from people chasing him with guns and didn’t understand what was going on.

    Don’t know about the winter coat.

  3. 3.

    SamAm

    July 23, 2005 at 10:46 pm

    If he was indeed recently arrived from Brazil the difference in climate could well explain the coat. And who knows how bulky it actually was? Could have been more like a jacket. His status as an illegal has to be part of the cause of his running.

    A great deal of what the public’s heard about the case has been suspect or even wrong (that he was connected to a terror cell, that he was followed into the station, that he was South Asian), so I’d think it still too early to try and make specific judgements about the case.

  4. 4.

    ppGaz

    July 23, 2005 at 11:18 pm

    Brazilian media reported that Menezes was an electrician who had been legally living and working in England for the past three years. He originally came from the small city of Gonzaga, some 500 miles northeast of Sao Paulo in the state of Minas Gerais.

    As reported by MSNBC.

    My scan of the NYT, CNN and MSNBC stories make no mention of any “illegal” status. Where are you getting that information?

  5. 5.

    ppGaz

    July 23, 2005 at 11:25 pm

    The Sunday Times – Britain

    July 24, 2005

    Police shot wrong man
    Jonathan Calvert and David Leppard
    Suspect was innocent Brazilian electrician

    SCOTLAND YARD was forced to admit last night that a man shot five times from close range by police officers was not connected to Thursday’s London terror attacks.

    In a short statement the Metropolitan police described the man’s death as a tragedy and expressed “regret”. He was named as Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old electrician from Brazil who had been working legally in Britain for three years. It is believed he lived with relatives in Brixton, south London.

  6. 6.

    Adam

    July 23, 2005 at 11:29 pm

    Nope; no sympathy here really… you run from police and jump a turnstyle a few days after a massive terrorist bombing, you get shot in the head. Nothing else we can really say without putting the rest of the people on the transportation system in danger.

  7. 7.

    Richard Bottoms

    July 23, 2005 at 11:38 pm

    Oopsie.

    Not illegal.

    Fella from a hot climate in a cool city.

    Chased by a bunch of other guys in street clothes with guns. No doubt they were shouting “we’re the police” the whole time. I mean you wouldn’t rush after a man you thought had a bomb without clearly identifying who you are. But then, he ain’t talking is he.

    I say shoot him 36 more times like Amadu Diallo. Why should should this guy get off easy.

  8. 8.

    Richard Bottoms

    July 23, 2005 at 11:51 pm

    Seems the driver of the train almost got popped too:

    The Tube train driver was also chased by cops and had a gun held to his head when he fled with commuters. Police later apologised.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15770559%26method=full%26siteid=94762%26headline=gun%2dcops%2dkill%2dman%2don%2dtube%2d%2d%2dbut%2dhe%2dhad%2dno%2dbomb-name_page.html

  9. 9.

    ppGaz

    July 23, 2005 at 11:51 pm

    That’s right. Nothing to see here. “Move on.” “No sympathy.”

    No calls for more information, no waiting to see what the details of the incident might be. Collateral damage. Probably an illegal. A scared young guy running from what he thought was danger, maybe? Don’t know. Who cares?

    I have read some of the posts in this thread, and I swear, if I didn’t see them, I wouldn’t believe them. I’m flabbergasted. How many decades worth of IRA bombings in London did we have …. were there any panicky shootings of innocent commuters? I don’t recall any.

    London Bombing Timeline
    LondonTerror

  10. 10.

    KC

    July 24, 2005 at 12:00 am

    Maybe he had some weed or something stashed in the jacket. Either way, I feel for the kid’s family. The incident just goes to show what people’s nerves are like in times of trouble. I’m sure the police feel bad about it too.

  11. 11.

    demimondian

    July 24, 2005 at 12:06 am

    I’m with PpGaZ. Come on, people! This guy was innocent of any crime, and was shot dead. Yes, it takes a while for a police officer to get used to carrying a gun, and to realize how deadly it makes him or her. Yes, it’s a tragic event, and, yes, barring other evidence, I believe that it was a tragic mistake.

    But beyond that…running away from someone who is pursuing you isn’t a crime, even if he or she is saying “Stop! Police!” Jumping a turnstile isn’t a crime, either, so it certainly isn’t a capital offense.

    And what are the London cops going to do when winter comes, and everyone is wearing a bulky jacket? Some new rewrite on Shakespear: “First, let’s kill all the commuters”?

  12. 12.

    SamAm

    July 24, 2005 at 12:13 am

    My apologies for saying he was illegal if he was in fact not. Of course the latter status would make his killing even more tragic and senseless, because he wouldn’t have been fleeing for violating immigration laws.

    Also, nothing I’ve heard suggests this was regular London cops doing the shooting, but rather paramilitary police. But they, for all their effectiveness in killing an innocent man, would probably not have been able to stop a suicide bomber. A bomber almost certainly would have detonated before running more than a few steps.

  13. 13.

    eileen from OH

    July 24, 2005 at 1:25 am

    “Why he was wearing a winter coat in July, ignored police, jumped a turnstile, asnd the rest of the rest of the described behaviors is anyone’s guess.”

    Maybe 60 degrees was cold to him.
    Maybe he didn’t speak English – and the cops were in plain clothes.
    Maybe he was an illegal.

    I don’t know. All I know is that some poor Brazilian schmuck is dead. I don’t blame the cops, and I’m not dumping on you, John. But take a peek over at the wingnuts Free Republic and see how they still think the cop deserves a medal. It was a sad, tragic mistake. But to some people there was no mistake – it was indeed, a capital crime to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, in the wrong jacket.

    THAT is the mentality that says, more than anything, how 911 has changed us. And not for the better.

    eileen from OH

  14. 14.

    Mike S

    July 24, 2005 at 1:50 am

    Adam Says:

    Nope; no sympathy here really…

    Kind of sad that anyone would feel that way. I feel bad for all involved. The cops were in a fucked up situation and thought they were doing the right thing. Can’t say as I’d do anything different.

    Tragic.

  15. 15.

    Bruce Moomaw

    July 24, 2005 at 1:56 am

    At the risk of being stripped of my liberal Brownie Badge, I have considerable sympathy for the London cops in this matter. They are up against an unprecedented — and horrendous — situation, since the IRA never used suicide bombers. What the hell do you do, immediately after a series of subway suicide bombings, when someone generally Arabic-looking and wearing a big fat overcoat (in summer) refuses to stop on your repeated command and leaps onto a train? Do you refuse to shoot him dead on the grounds that he might be innocent, and thereby provide a window of opportunity for suicide bombers to start using a similar MO in order to blow up more Britishers by the dozens?

    Which is why Mayor Livingston, Red Ken or no, was strongly defending the cops today. Britain is now in the same horrible situation that Israel has been in for so long: one with no good answers, only a “least bad” one. Believe me, if the cops refrain from shooting someone of similar behavior as a result of the criticism they’re now getting and another subway car gets blown up as a result, the average Brit is going to take a very tolerant attitude toward that “shoot to kill” order even if it does mean that an occasional innocent gets killed as a side effect. And the average Brit will have an excellent case. This is, to put it mildly, not the same thing as Mayor Daley’s infamous “shoot to kill” order for looters in the Chicago of 1967.

  16. 16.

    M. Scott Eiland

    July 24, 2005 at 1:57 am

    I don’t know. All I know is that some poor Brazilian schmuck is dead. I don’t blame the cops, and I’m not dumping on you, John. But take a peek over at the wingnuts Free Republic and see how they still think the cop deserves a medal. It was a sad, tragic mistake. But to some people there was no mistake – it was indeed, a capital crime to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, in the wrong jacket.

    As things went down, it was a mistake–but it would be a bigger one for the British authorities to get gunshy and refuse to act the next time a guy in a heavy coat is acting suspiciously, then starts to run. Hopefully, this sad event will serve as an object lesson of why it’s a bad idea to run away from cops in a country where wastes of protoplasm are blowing themselves and innocent people up–and maybe the next guy will stop in his tracks when the cops tell him to stop, and he will live to tell the tale. . .and that will be a good thing. But given that word of this shooting is going to be ubiquitous in the UK, I’m going to have less sympathy next time if someone else chooses to run and the cops blow him away–fair notice has been given.

  17. 17.

    Bruce Moomaw

    July 24, 2005 at 1:59 am

    “Eileen from Ohio” does raise one relevant point: the fact that the cops may have been wearing plain clothes. Even in that case, however, if they were out of uniform it was surely as part of an attempt to snare other members of the terrorist gang (which we now know to be pretty damn big) by ambushing them during another attempted attack. As I say, a no-good-solution situation.

  18. 18.

    eileen from OH

    July 24, 2005 at 2:10 am

    I have nothing but empathy/sympathy for the cops in this case. They were making split second decisions in a framework that left no time for doubt.

    But when someone starts to celebrate the action afterward (and, again, there are some that do – who think that by his suspicious behavior and clothing he somehow had it coming.) I’m sickened.

    Oh, and BTW, I understand the cops WERE in plain clothes – they were staking out a house in the neighborhood of the Brazilian guy and followed him.

    eileen from OH

  19. 19.

    M. Scott Eiland

    July 24, 2005 at 2:16 am

    Oh, and BTW, I understand the cops WERE in plain clothes – they were staking out a house in the neighborhood of the Brazilian guy and followed him.

    That’s a nasty little twist–if they had accosted him before he reached the train, they probably could have afforded to be less aggressive, and he would have probably lived. Of course, the usual suspects would have been screaming bloody murder about “harassment,” and the British authorities would have ended up taking almost as much heat for a situation where no one died as they will for killing someone, or possibly more.

  20. 20.

    eileen from OH

    July 24, 2005 at 2:25 am

    “That’s a nasty little twist—if they had accosted him before he reached the train, they probably could have afforded to be less aggressive, and he would have probably lived. Of course, the usual suspects would have been screaming bloody murder about “harassment,” and the British authorities would have ended up taking almost as much heat for a situation where no one died as they will for killing someone, or possibly more.”

    Yeah, but he’d still be alive.

    eileen from OH

  21. 21.

    rilkefan

    July 24, 2005 at 2:56 am

    M. Scott with the usual sharp point leading up to the usual wildly implausible partisan spin – an electrician gets grabbed by the cops, who find some pot on him or nothing, and that makes the NYTimes A1? People in Britain are _more_ outraged about a mistaken arrest than a mistaken wild shootout in a crowded place leading to a civilian fatality followed by a news cycle of apparently bogus ass-covering?

    I probably would have done the same in those cops’ place – but whoever put me there should be fired, from what it sounds like.

  22. 22.

    SamAm

    July 24, 2005 at 3:36 am

    I don’t know anything about the design or mechanics of suicide bombs (and that’s not something that troubles me), but it seems difficult to think of scenarios where, in a liberal democracy, in a crowded environment like the subway, a police officer would be able to spot a suicide bomber with any degree of certainty and be able to kill him before the bomb were triggered. Just as with random bag searching, the density of police is never going to be high enough to stop these people, and the certainty as to what a suspect is carrying will simply not exist. I understand this was an extraordinary case, but it’s not just bad because an innocent person was killed. It’s also bad if the London authorities are under the belief that the same principles, put to use in the same manner under different circumstances are going to be effective. I can’t imagine they will be. To put it more bluntly, the fact that the police were able to even physically restrain the man is, in hindsight, a glaring clue to the fact that he didn’t have explosives on him. That simply wouldn’t have been the case if he were bomber.

    Also, look at how hard it is for the Iraqi police to stop suicide car bombs, and they’ve got a much tighter profile to look for and much looser rules of engagement. Suicide bombers will simply not be stopped by police on patrol with any degree of success. So expanding the situations in which police can use their weapons is going to be nothing more than counterproductive to free society.

  23. 23.

    DougJ

    July 24, 2005 at 8:57 am

    Obviously, this is a sad story.

    On the other hand, I am cheered that the British police have a “shoot first and ask questions later” approach to terrorism. If the police here had that approach, I have no doubt we’d be much safer. But the liberals would never allow it.

  24. 24.

    SoCalJustice

    July 24, 2005 at 9:30 am

    ppGaz

    My scan of the NYT, CNN and MSNBC stories make no mention of any “illegal” status. Where are you getting that information?

    A friend of mine who works for a news agency – but was not working on this story – told me that he had heard early reports that he was illegal and didn’t speak English. I didn’t ask him how he heard that, and I hadn’t seen any reports that discounted that at the time of my post.

    But I did say that I didn’t know if that was true – because I didn’t know if that was true. It would have explained why he was running away, though.

    Of course, lots of people would run from other people chasing with guns for lots of reasons – having nothing to do with one’s immigration status or language skills.

  25. 25.

    John S.

    July 24, 2005 at 9:48 am

    Doug took his super moonbat juice today:

    On the other hand, I am cheered that the British police have a “shoot first and ask questions later” approach to terrorism. If the police here had that approach, I have no doubt we’d be much safer. But the liberals would never allow it.

    Yes, shooting people first and asking questions later is certainly something to “cheer” about. And what do you mean if the police here had that approach? Or have you forgetten how many “accidental” police shootings we have in this country every year? Did you forget about the grisly shooting of Patrick Dorismond (he was innocent and unarmed) by NYPD? I guess so. Do a google search, and you’ll find loads of other incidents that have occurred recently.

    The only thing this liberal won’t allow is people like you turning logic on its head and painting an extremely distorted picture of reality.

  26. 26.

    Sojourner

    July 24, 2005 at 10:18 am

    Hey Doug:

    I like your logic. If the British cops shoot all the people in England, guaranteed they’ll get rid of the terrorists.

    Great idea!

  27. 27.

    W.B. Reeves

    July 24, 2005 at 10:20 am

    “On the other hand, I am cheered that the British police have a “shoot first and ask questions later” approach to terrorism. If the police here had that approach, I have no doubt we’d be much safer. But the liberals would never allow it.”

    Right. A society where police “shoot first and ask questions later” will be ever so much safer. Except, of course, for anyone who is “Arab looking” which, as this case illustrates, means anyone who isn’t a white European. How grand it must be to feel so secure in one’s skin that it seems reasonable, figuratively and practically, to hang targets on anyone with a darker shade of pigment.

    BTW, I thought the London bombers were Pakistanis, not Arabs. Perhaps I’m mistaken. Wouldn’t be the first time. Fortunately my hands are on a keyboard, not a weapon.

  28. 28.

    Jeff Maier

    July 24, 2005 at 10:56 am

    Forgot politics and everything else for a moment, what’s up with a strategy that unloads firearms into someone, in a public area, who might be wired with explosives!

    From my old military days, I seem to recall that you might use gunfire, from a SAFE distance, to attempt to detonate an explosives package?

  29. 29.

    dorkafork

    July 24, 2005 at 11:28 am

    “But beyond that…running away from someone who is pursuing you isn’t a crime, even if he or she is saying ‘Stop! Police!’ Jumping a turnstile isn’t a crime, either, so it certainly isn’t a capital offense.”

    IANAL, but I think that’s known as “Disobeying a lawful order”. I am certain jumping a turnstile without paying your fare is also a crime.

    Maybe it’s just me, but if someone in plainclothes told me to stop in a crowded subway, I’d stop, and comply unless they asked me to do something unreasonable.

  30. 30.

    mitch

    July 24, 2005 at 11:36 am

    “Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can’t help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.”

    –Robert A. Heinlein

  31. 31.

    kl

    July 24, 2005 at 2:31 pm

    “Forgot politics and everything else for a moment, what’s up with a strategy that unloads firearms into someone, in a public area, who might be wired with explosives!”

    Apparently they’re now trained to go for headshots, and only if it looks like the suspect is about to set off a bomb. But I don’t see why they can’t just ask nicely.

  32. 32.

    Misha I

    July 24, 2005 at 6:02 pm

    A friend of mine who works for a news agency – but was not working on this story – told me that he had heard early reports that he was illegal and didn’t speak English.

    Another good reason to learn the language of the country that you’ve decided to call home, particularly when you’ve been living in it for years.

    I’ll just go wipe my eyes now.

    Apparently they’re now trained to go for headshots, and only if it looks like the suspect is about to set off a bomb. But I don’t see why they can’t just ask nicely.

    Because, Heaven knows, the Islamofascists are known for reacting positively and immediately to polite requests.

    That was sarcasm, right?

  33. 33.

    kl

    July 24, 2005 at 10:28 pm

    Very good. Were you expecting a prize?

  34. 34.

    Bruce Moomaw

    July 25, 2005 at 1:18 am

    Further development, according to NBC News tonight: the reason the plain-clothes cops were after this guy in the first place — and the reason they were in plain clothes — was that they saw him leaving an apartment house which they were already staking out as a likely center of terrorist activity. It really looks more and more to me as though this incident is a plain, old-fashioned case of tragic mistake, without any significant blame attaching to the cops.

  35. 35.

    Mr Furious

    July 25, 2005 at 9:58 am

    On a crowded subway platform, do you really want the cops going for headshots?

  36. 36.

    Richard Bottoms

    July 25, 2005 at 2:49 pm

    >It really looks more and more to me as though this incident >is a plain, old-fashioned case of tragic mistake, without any >significant blame attaching to the cops.

    True, but the guys is till dead.

    Anyway John’s regret over his ealier remark is what sets him aprt from the all too typical “collateral damage happens” attitude of much of the right.

    We lost 3,000 people on 9/11. The Iraqi’s three, four, five, or more times that so far with more to come. Much of that due to our incompetence in managing the aftermath of the war and failure to deal with the insurgency after 2 full years.

    As this poor gentleman shows, some of that collateral damage is spilling over into the west too.

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    July 24, 2005 at 10:22 am

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