Surprisingly enough, it is Monday, and the press appears to have taken a break from the ‘flood the zone’ Plame/Rove coverage. No front page stories in the WaPo, NY Times, or LA Times.
Tom Maguire plays mop-up with the stories from this week-end, including this WaPo piece datelined today but not on the front page.
rilkefan
G*d forbid we have to turn from political scandal to the situation in Iraq.
Kevin K.
Does Maguire have a man-crush on Rove or is he just using him as a traffic magnet? Even if you’re a righty, isn’t it somewhat bizarre to be voraciously defending someone as scummy as Rove to the extent that Tom has been lately? Hell, I can’t imagine anyone on the left defending, say, Chris Lehane if he was accused of doing something similar.
And if Rove is found guilty, Maguire’s going to look rather goofy. Or maybe that doesn’t matter anymore.
SamAm
Actually, the NYT has a “News Analysis” on the subject below the fold. As it’s written by Richard W. Stevenson, the most interesting part of it is deciphering the new spin from the Rove-camp.
John Cole
You can just call it a crush, if you would like. It is 2005, and I have an ad up for ‘Gay Orbit.’
But I think Tom just feels like we aren’t getting the full story, and whether or not Rove is scummy or not is irrelevant.
ET
Hey – but yesterday there was a USAToday op-ed from their neighbor and lawyer. Intereting observations from some who lives close by and knows them.
KC
As part of his role as Rove sycophant, McGuire seems to be avoiding the blatantly obvious situation coming out of this. Either…
1) Rove told the president personally and Bush was misleading in his subsequent statements about his knowledge of Rove’s role.
or
2)Rove lied Bush about his involvement and allowed Bush (as well as another administration official) to make inaccurate statements to the public.
So, what is it Tommy Boy?
Has our President been less than truthful to us?
or
Did Bush let his right hand man lie to his face as well as to others in his administration and despite that let him remain in his staff at the same position to this day?
Rick
Fitzgerald will answer your either/or question, Mr. KC. And the leaker may be a surprize guest. I’m thinking Colin Powell.
Cordially…
Stormy70
Someone on The Corner went to opensecrets.org and looked up their lawyer neighbor, and surprise, surprise! He donates money to all kinds of lefty causes. I don’t think he’s an unbiased source, so I take that article with a huge grain of Dem hijinks.
Redleg
Stormy70,
Since I know you are a right-wing kool-aid drinker, I take everything you say about lefties with a huge grain of Republican hijinks.
By the way, Wilson’s neighbor’s political orientation is irrelevant to whether Rove is a shit-stain.
Rick
Stormy,
Would you happen to have a packet of AGUAS FRESCAS PINA PINEAPPLE flavor mix? I’m fresh out.
Cordially…
Bernard Yomtov
Is there anything that could happen that would cause Maguire to abandon his devotion to Rove? Look, it’s absolutely clear that Gonzales shouldn’t have told Card. Absolutely. Did anything bad happen as a result? Were documents destroyed? We don’t know.
But here’s a guy who is AG of the US, and people are going to defend his telling Card?
Stormy70
Look, the only acceptable flavor is red rasberry, I like my Kool-aid red, like my state. Although, I might have the Pina Pineapple in the liquor cabinet.
I love how noone on the left drinks the partisan kool-aid, yet will defend even the indefensible (Senator KKK Byrd, anyone?).
Quite telling.
Andrei
So… how many on the right side of the aisle are willing to put their money where their mouths are? Say… a $100 bucks on that Rick? $100 that Colin Powell is not the leaker, you and me. Who else is willing to make some real monetary bets around the whole scandal that is developing?
God knows if you guys are all wrong about this stuff we’ll ever get anything remotely close to an apology or true mea culpa, so I’m thinking money is the best way to settle it once Fitz settles it for good.
Bernard Yomtov
Gee, Stormy.
You hate the KKK and anyone with a history, however remote, of being associated with it, but you love the red states. Do I have that right?
Sojourner
Stormy doesn’t give a shit about the damage done to national security. She only cares about possible damage to her party. A true patriot.
Al Maviva
Well, if it matters any, the LA Times has a great op-ed by Jonathan Turley, explaining why if John Roberts is a practicing Catholic with an active moral conscience, he probably doesn’t have any business being a judge.
eileen from OH
Hey, Stormy, got a few questions for ya. . .do you have to be a total non-involved, total non-read-the-papers, total don’t-have-an-opinion, DOOFUS in order NOT to be a liar? Are the only credible people on the left OR the right only those who don’t participate in the democratic (with a small d) process? Do you have to live in a vacuum in order to be truthful?
Would you lie to defend a right position/person? Would you ask one of your rightwing friends to lie for you?
I don’t think so. Really.
Why doncha give the same benefit of the doubt to someone from the left? Believe it or not, those on the left side of issues, who care enough to support and give money, can actually like um. . .tell the truth, y’know?
Do you have any liberal friends? Do they lie? (And, if so, why are they your friends?) If you think this guy lied about his neighbors, just because he defends, supports, and contributes to causes he believes in, say it.
I’m sick of this crap, whereby anyone who cares about politics and has a freakin’ OPINION – on either side – is automatically a liar and non-credible. It’s become almost a bloody CRIME to be informed and involved. Evidently, when you write a check, you now lose the right to ever speak out in public again.
Look, we gravitate to those who share our ideals. It’s human nature. It doesn’t automatically mean that we would lie for them – or that they would lie for us.
eileen from OH
Josh
Karl Rove: presumed guilty before innocent. He must have done something bad to deserve all that rabid outrage from his political opposites.
eileen from OH
Josh, I don’t know if Rove is guilty of a crime, legally. But we do know that he DISCUSSED a CIA agent with reporters. That much has been admitted, even by Rove. Whether or not he’s legally culpable is besides the point. You don’t discuss CIA agents, covert or not. Period.
At the very least, he should have asked the CIA before saying anything beyond “no comment.” Do you think he did and they said, “ah, go ahead, no prob.”?
If he didn’t bother checking with them, well, that’s even worse.
At the very, very, VERY least, he is already guilty of supremely bad judgment and that alone, in this time where intelligence is what we rely on to keep us safe, should have some repercussions, don’t you think?
If you had a kid, or loved one, now working for the CIA, would this whole thing make you worry about their safety? If you had a kid or loved one who was considering a career in intelligence, would you be inclined to encourage or discourage them, based on what happened to Valerie Plame?
eileen from OH
Rick
I think the proper bet is that Rove is not “the leaker” (that is, getting Plame’s info into press circulation)–it was someone else. I suspect Powell because he climbed the career ladder by leaking, just to build coziness with the journos.
But as NRO points out, it could’ve been David Corn spilling the beans.
Cordially…
Rick
Stormy,
Nah, the left doesn’t drink the Kool-Aid. It tears open the pouch and snorts it. Mixing it with water is for sissy wingers.
Cordially…
eileen from OH
Rick, nah, wasn’t Powell. He was the “outsider,” remember? And remember that he DIDN’T include the African/Niger thing in his address to the U.N. – I believe it was the item that made him throw things and say, “this is BS” and he had to FIGHT with the PNAC crowd to keep them from putting it in. The Wilson report CONFIRMED what he – and the CIA and the State Dept. – said all along. It vindicated him – so the last thing he would have done is try and discredit Wilson’s findings. Also, the memo ITSELF was a vindication because it said that the CIA was reluctant to send Wilson because the African/Niger thing had been investigated up the wazoo and they hadn’t found squat. They only grudgingly sent Wilson because higher-ups (VP office) wanted it checked out, yet again.
If anything, Powell, or Armitage, or Carl Ford, are/were leaking ABOUT the leakers. Remember that there was an “administration official” in the original WaPo article that first told reporters that others in the administration were shopping the story to 6 reporters.
eileen from OH
Rick
Eileen,
You give good reasons for my suspicion of St. Colin: that he used Plame’s job to buttress Wilson’s trip and report. Which was independently discredited, but that came a year later.
Cordially…
Sojourner
Right. I’m sure David Corn has access to info about CIA operatives. Certainly more so than Rove and the other folks on Air Force One at the same time the memo was being bandied about.
Another insightful post from ole Rick.
Rick
From talking to Joseph Barrington Smythe Cafritz Douglas-Home Wilson IV, himself. Dood.
Jeez, no one blurts or leaks to the left, or for left purposes? Grow up.
Cordially…
Stormy70
No.
Yes. Some are even (gasp) in my immediate family. They live in red states too, but I’ll have to see if they signed up for the KKK (shout out to Bernard Yomtov, because people like you will cause reasonable Dems to jump ship).
Just like all you people are believing the young republican from the military funeral? You guys are certainly not taking her word for it, her political background caused you to question her story about the Lt. Governor crashing the funeral. Pot, kettle is on line one for you.
Gotta go, the Kool aid beckons like a siren song from the kitchen, where I, alas, will have to mix with water like a sissy winger.
Sojourner
Oh yeh. Wilson outed his own wife. Now why would he do that? Please don’t try the partisan bullshit. He didn’t become a partisan until after the Bushies outed his wife.
Grow up yourself. You’re the one who bends over and grabs his ankles every time the Bushies look your way.
Sojourner
You go, girl. We’d hate for you to see the real world for what it is.
Andrei
First Rick says:
I asked for money to put on those words, to which he says:
To which I say:
What’s the matter Rick? Can’t stick to your own speculation? Way to back away from a statement by announcing you thought it was Powell who was the leaker, then try and change the nature of the bet to Rove not being the leaker.
Newsflash: The bet wasn’t about Karl Rove, Rick. I was asking you to make a bet on Powell being the leaker, which you stated with some manner of speculation as to assume some truthfulness to your guess. I will have to assume you have no backbone or belief in your assertions since you won’t put money on it.
It’s a simple bet Rick: I give you $100 bucks for you if Colin Powell was the leaker. You give me $100 bucks for me if he wasn’t. If you know so much or are so confident in your own proclamations, speculation or assertions, you know it’s an easy $100 for you.
Once again, are you game?
Bernard Yomtov
Just making a point, Stormy. I bet there are lots of folks in plenty of red states who would prefer not to have their past racial attitudes publicized.
Bob
This is how I see it. Bush, Cheney, Rove, Libby, Condi and probably Ari were in on it early. Powell may have produced the information, but I don’t think he would suggest the leak, or even do it. Would go along, though. Bolton has an outside shot at being involved. Considering all the other coworkers he spied on, I wouldn’t be surprised that subsequent to Wilson appearing on the radar screen that he was sicced on Wilson.
Rove, Cheney or Libby, or a combination of them, came up with the idea, although if I were a betting man I’d put money on Rove as the originator of the idea, if not the actual leaker. Bush early on was in on it. He’s a mean-spirited little man, but I doubt he has the cleverness to come up with anything on his own. Better he play t-ball on the lawn.
And Abrams, was he on Air Force One too? Eliott Abrams must have been involved. And where was Poindexter? Is Donald Segretti still alive? And Joe McCarthy, has anyone checked his grave?
Bob
PROFILES IN REPUBLICAN COURAGE: Lee Atwater says I’m sorry.
eileen from OH
Rick,
I’m confused. (What else is new?)
You said: “You give good reasons for my suspicion of St. Colin: that he used Plame’s job to buttress Wilson’s trip and report. Which was independently discredited, but that came a year later.”
BTW, sorry for being a nit, but how do I quote and get it in nice li’l boxes?
Lemme see if I’ve got this straight. Colin leaked Plame’s identity to Robert Novak (and others) to further buttress Wilson’s report? Colin Powell actually thought, “Gee, if I tell reporters that Wilson’s wife is a CIA agent and that she was instrumental in getting her husband this plummy assignment to sunny Niger, then everyone will believe it even more.”
THAT is a new one.
Har-dee-har-ally,
eileen from OH
Sojourner
Eileen:
Rick also claims it was Wilson who outed his own wife:
He’s a bit confused. Be gentle.
eileen from OH
Stormy, (once again I apologize for not mastering the little box quote thing. Where are the directions for finding out how to do that?)
Anyway, I originally wrote: If you had a kid, or loved one, now working for the CIA, would this whole thing make you worry about their safety? If you had a kid or loved one who was considering a career in intelligence, would you be inclined to encourage or discourage them, based on what happened to Valerie Plame?
And you answered: No.
I reply now: “No” what? You would encourage or discourage?
I originally said: Do you have any liberal friends?
You replied: Yes. Some are even (gasp) in my immediate family. They live in red states too, but I’ll have to see if they signed up for the KKK (shout out to Bernard Yomtov, because people like you will cause reasonable Dems to jump ship).
I reply now: I don’t know Bernard Yomtov, but his name sounds like a great movie title, “Bring Me The Head of Bernard Yomtov!” But, I digress. My question was if you thought your liberal friends, despite their despicable liberalness, could possibly tell an objective truth? Or is the fact that they support liberal causes, or even give money to liberal causes, enough for you to spit upon them, crying “Fie, fie, you are a liar.”
I previously said: Why doncha give the same benefit of the doubt to someone from the left? Believe it or not, those on the left side of issues, who care enough to support and give money, can actually like um. . .tell the truth, y’know?
You replied: Just like all you people are believing the young republican from the military funeral? You guys are certainly not taking her word for it, her political background caused you to question her story about the Lt. Governor crashing the funeral. Pot, kettle is on line one for you.
I reply now: Well, gee, I was kinda talking to you personally – I’m not “all you people” (even though there are some who no doubt have much cooler shoes than I do, which is a cause for envy) and since neither of us was at this funeral personally, I’m inclined to take a wait-and-see attitude. Kindly do not make assumptions on what I do or do not feel, especially as I did not weigh in at all on that particualr issue.
To summarize (and again apologize for the little box thing.) Does being a left or right activist immediately and automatically make everything that comes out of your mouth and/or keyboard suspect? Are you willing to concede that the Wilson’s neighbor, despite the fact that he supports liberal causes, just might be telling the truth?
eileen from OH
DougJ
Yawn…more tempest in a teapot.
The sad thing is that this is crowding out so many more important issues such as Senator Santorum’s proposed “Natalee’s Law” which would vastly increase the safety of Americans abroad. It also gives cover to the Democrats’ shameless attempts to smear Judge Roberts.
eileen from OH
DougJ, you know how much I love you, man. So please let me respectfully suggest you might try a new phrase for the Rove/Plame thing. You’ve really kinda overused the “tempest” thing. I’m being honest here. And since you mentioned Senator Santorum I was thinking of some alternatives, like you could say it’s all ” a Great Dane in a Mailbox” or “a Golden Retriever in the glove compartment” or “a St. Bernard in a condom” as alternatives. Just some suggestions.
I did not know that Senator Santorum was boldly going out to address the Lost Blondes Overseas issue! I’m really hoping that next he’ll tackle the “Letting the People In My Home District In PA Pay For My Kids’ Home Schooling in VA” issue. Or the “Poor Single Mothers Stay Home Cuz Education Ain’t Gonna Help You Bitches” issue. Or the “Massachusetts Monopoly on Diddling Priests” issue.
Whoa – that’s one full plate. But I think he’s up to it.
eileen from OH
Jess
Eileen,
I just recently figured out the block quote thing myself, so let me share the magic: click on B-Quote; paste your quote after the tag; click on /B-Quote. Continue with your reply.
Enjoy!
ET
Gee didn’t know posting an op-ed from a friend and neighbor who was offering personal (stress the personal) observations that most news sources haven’t written on was such a….. partisan thing.
Stormy you are a git – I know everything in your world translates to red v. blue but belive it or not – not everything is. I feel the bias here is more one of friendship than of the partisan crap you look for.
The reason I posted that article was because it had a personal focus that I think is lacking in most of the articles written on this topic.
Stormy70
He is their lawyer. Do you trust Libby or Rove’s lawyer to be unbiased? I didn’t think so. He is their advocate, therefore, I take what he says with a grain of salt. No partisanship about it. Also, I don’t defend Rove in my posts, because I am waiting for Fitzy’s report, and if Rove did break the law, then he should be burned. All these news articles are dueling banjos, on either side, so I will wait for the facts. If you think I’m a git for not taking the word of their lawyer, even though he lives next door, then so be it. I’ve been called worst by the people on this site.
Sojourner
Beautiful! How could anyone think that national security is more important than “Natalee’s Law” or Terri Schiavo? Imagine…
DougJ
“I’m really hoping that next he’ll tackle the “Letting the People In My Home District In PA Pay For My Kids’ Home Schooling in VA” issue. Or the “Poor Single Mothers Stay Home Cuz Education Ain’t Gonna Help You Bitches” issue.”
A hit, a palpable hit! I don’t understand why Santorum is screwing that school district: it’s greedy and it’s bad politics. You’ll get no argument from me.
Be that as it may, you’ve got to admit that Senator Santorum has a lot of guts.
Rick
Eileen,
Lemme see if I’ve got this straight. Colin leaked Plame’s identity to Robert Novak (and others) to further buttress Wilson’s report? Colin Powell actually thought, “Gee, if I tell reporters that Wilson’s wife is a CIA agent and that she was instrumental in getting her husband this plummy assignment to sunny Niger, then everyone will believe it even more.”
Tone–and the uncertainty of whether Novak was the first to learn of Plame’s work–aside, that’s a far more plausible scenario than “let’s show the press how much of a disconnected bozo this Wilson is; we’ll reveal his wife’s work. That’ll demolish him.”
Explain that thinking. BTW, Plame’s input in getting bozo hubby the “job” didn’t come out until a year later. Wilson was suggesting he was Cheney’s own John Steed, WMD Avenger. Chortle.
Cordially…
Rick
Andrei,
My bet is that Colin Powell is more likely to be “the leaker” than Karl Rove or Scooter Libby. But it could be any foreign-service flunky or Undersecretary–the usual Arabist apologists at Foggy Bottom. Cut-outs, you see?
Do I take it you now know it really wasn’t Rove?
Are you betting it’s Rove? Because I’ll take that one. $100 to you if it’s Karl, $100 to me if it’s St. Colin, and bet’s off if it’s anyone else.
Cordially…
Rick
Wilson outed his own wife. Now why would he do that?
Sojourner,
All spelled out here. Joseph Carsdale Smythe Barrington Ellsworth Wilson IV is so publicity shy, after all.
I hope reading the article doesn’t get you sentenced to one of those left-wing re-education camps you guys have.
Cordially…
Andrei
Obviously you are not interested in the original bet, which is — once again — simply that you think it’s Powell and I think you are wrong. You are chickening out for whatever reasons you seem to think make sense in your own private Idaho. I think that speaks louder than anything in that you’ve missed the original point of the bet.
Stormy70
If this was Kos, they would accuse you of being gay.
Rick
Andrei,
Out of literally hundreds, if not thousands, of people positioned to know of and about Valerie Plame, I consider Colin Powell likliest to leak that info to a worshipful press.
Which doesn’t mean the odds are strong, just proportionally strongest out of the vast pool of unknowns. IOW, I might bet $5 its him, if my winning jackpot is $100. 1:20 is a good bit greater than the actual odds it’s him, so that’d be making a sucker bet.
Let’s make it 1:50. Sucker, still, but trending toward liklihood. I’ll bet you $10 it’s Powell, and if I’m right, you send me $500.
The odds certainly, and your pouty gut reaction, are certainly on your side. But my claim is no one else is a stronger candidate.
Like, why is Judith Miller still silent? If she’s protecting a source, we have a good idea who it ISN’T. Ari Fleischer is another named candidate, but I suspect St. Colin because of his life pattern.
Cordially…
Andrei
You state “out of hundreds, if not thousands” that Powell is “likliest” to be be the leak, then you give him a 5% chance of being that leak? And that 5% is a “good bit greater” than the “actual” odds?
Sucker’s bet my ass. You can’t figure out what you’re talking about is more likely.
Likely is more in the 1:2 range my friend. You know, like if you have poket Jacks and I have Ace King, you are going to win the hand if played all-in pre-flop at around 53% or so. That’s a “likely” chance of winning my friend. You don’t bet money — or make assertative declarations — with an at best 5% chance of likelihood my friend. That’s just stupid.
Further, even if there are a hundred “potential” candidates that could leak, there’s obvious dead money (so to speak) in the pool, so you ignore that section. When I join poker tournaments in my area, I know I’m in the top 15%, sometimes top 10%, of the players in a 100 to 150 person tournament. I place my odds of making the final table at 10% to 15% of the total pool of players, not a 1% or 1.5% chance. In other words, I make the final table money 1 to 2 times out of every 10 tournaments I play even when there are 100 players per tournament.
So, are you really stating that Powell is “likely” the leaker but only give him at best a 5% shot of being it? That …”my claim is no one else is a stronger candidate.”
5%?
That’s just bullshit my friend. Nice try.
Sojourner
Sojourner
This is the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time! The problem is not that Plame’s status as a CIA operative was outed but rather the fact that she was covert.
So we can go ahead and put a list of all CIA operatives on the Internet as long as we don’t mention which ones are covert?
Rick, are you for real???? Did you read the article close enough to understand the argument they were making?
This is incredibly stupid even by NRO standards.
Rick
Sucker’s bet my ass.
Andrei,
OK, your ass. What about that sorryy thing are you bitchin’ about?
I think Powell is the best candidate to be “the” [first] leaker, out of quite a number of prominent and obscure possibilities. So a 5% liklihood is a soaring number.
I’d put $10 on that chip, if you’d pay off $100. You *don’t* think that’s an easy $50 for you?
Thanks for the poker-prowess story. Didn’t illuminate jack-shit, because its apples & oranges. But thanks all the same.
Cordially…
Rick
This is the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time! The problem is not that Plame’s status as a CIA operative was outed but rather the fact that she was covert.
Sojourner,
Once again, you feel entitled to your own “facts.” “The fact that she was covert” is not a fact, but a possibility. Certainly, when a great number of news organizations got together a brief to keep Miller and Cooper from the pokey, they quite poo-pooed the “covert” notion, based on the law folks are hallucinating that Rove broke.
The first person to state in print that Wilson’s wife was a covert agent was David Corn. Guess he should be executed.
What’s the current temperature on the planet you live on, old space-voyaging correspondent of mine?
Cordially…
Sojourner
You really can’t be this stupid. She passed herself as working for a company, not the CIA. And this was for a reason. If someone is snooping around trying to get info about WMD, that person wants to appear as a civilian not as a CIA agent. How much info would she get if she introduced herself as a CIA agent? Good grief.
I cannot believe you find this to be such a difficult concept.
Rick
Sojourner,
You’re likely right about that; I was focussed too much on “covered” rather than “covert.”
Wait…wait…OK, I’m over it.
Cordially…
Rick
Sojourner,
Did you get this far?:
…The first reference to Plame being a secret agent appears in The Nation, in an article by David Corn published July 16, 2003, just two days after Novak’s column appeared. It carried this lead: “Did Bush officials blow the cover of a U.S. intelligence officer working covertly in a field of vital importance to national security — and break the law — in order to strike at a Bush administration critic and intimidate others?”
Since Novak did not report that Plame was “working covertly” how did Corn know that’s what she had been doing?
Corn does not tell his readers and he has responded to a query from me only by pointing out that he was asking a question, not making a “statement of fact.” But in the article, he asserts that Novak “outed” Plame “as an undercover CIA officer.” Again, Novak did not do that. Rather, it is Corn who is, apparently for the first time, “outing” Plame’s “undercover” status….
How did Corn know or guess? Rove told him?
Cordially…
Sojourner
Rick: If somebody claims to be working for a company, then is outed as working for the CIA, isn’t it pretty damn obvious that she didn’t want it known that she was working for the CIA? It seems to be pretty darn easy to guess that she was covert. Otherwise why would she hide her employment?
Rick
Like I’ve often said and always thought, we’ll see what Fitzgerald determines. Because it’s also possible she was–excuse me–blown by Aldrich Ames, and possibly the “Company” itself in a mistake in the mid-90s at the American Interests Section at some hosting foreign embassy in Havana.
Then the big media brief with Fitzgerald say there was no crime because she wasn’t covered by the 1982 law. So much turns on whether the Company was actively keeping her undercover.
Care to suggest how exposing this name is a way of discrediting Wilson? You know, “getting back at him” offensive that supposedly was conjured up. Though his credibility deflated through his own windiness, it strikes me his wife being a Agency specialist is more credibility building than if she was, say, an actress or realtor.
Cordially…
Sojourner
I cannot believe it would take two years and the jailing of a journalist to determine if a crime has been committed.
I am less confident that they will find enough evidence to pin it on anyone.
It’s a way of warning others not to cross the Bushies. Anyone who’s thinking of coming forward with additional evidence discrediting the Bush admistration may wonder what the consequences would be. If these guys are willing to undermine national security to wreck somebody’s career, who knows what else they may be willing to do?