Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
by John Cole| 51 Comments
This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Outrage
Berlin politicians bulldozed 1000 crosses at Checkpoint Charlie memorializing victims slaughtered trying to escape the Iron Curtain, and now they want to reassemble a statue of Lenin.
Now that I think about it, right now I don’t give a shit what Europe thinks about Bolton.
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Ode to Lenin in Berlin
Remember the 1000 crosses the left wing Berliners bulldozed at Checkpoint Charlie? Apparently that wasn’t enough. Davids Medienkritik reports that a new wave is building to reassemble the Lenin statue that’s been buried in pieces since 1991. John Col…
[…] Given that political landscape, perhaps it is not surprising that the German government bulldozed a memorial at Checkpoint Charlie, nor that they want to erect a tribute statue to Lenin. (Hat tip, John Cole.) Filed under: Leftism and Foreign AffairsTrackback URI: http://dalythoughts.com/wp-trackback.php?p=4109 […]
Emma Zahn
There are a lot of stupid people in the world who do not choose their heroes wisely.
Geek, Esq.
It appears that it would be featured as an historical curiousity and tourist attraction, not political symbol.
longtimelurker
Not to turn this into a whole big thing, but I don’t understand this strain of conservative thinking, and you see it constantly. In this case, some scummy pols in Berlin do something offensive, and instead of that being that, it’s transformed into a shot at Europe. umm ok? wtf?
Or some loser in Kansas protests a public manger display at Christmas, and it’s “the left’s attack on America and Christianity!”. It goes on and on and on. Nothing can ever just be what it is.
Reading this site has made me a lot more tolerant to conservative positions, but this is one thing that still pisses me off to no end.
Mr Furious
Now correct me if I’m wrong (I haven’t followed this closely) but isn’t it more accurate to say this was an “installation” that was being removed?
The crosses have only been there a year, on private property owned by a German mega-bank.
So let’s say Citibank put up a memorial for 9/11. Are they obligated never to take it down?
I’ll grant you that the German bank might have come up with a plan a little more sensitive than bulldozers, and God knows why they want to put up a statue of Lenin, but I’ll file this under “stuff I can’t possibly get too worked up about, that righties will wet their pants over.”
You need a change, John.
Moe Lane
“It appears that it would be featured as an historical curiousity and tourist attraction, not political symbol.”
(The following is not directed at Geek, Esq. – merely the people who want to bring the statue back.)
Perhaps they could reconstitute the swastika on top of the Brandenburg Gate next, then. Or maybe build that grotesquely large meeting hall; cloud formations taking place inside a building would certainly be a tourist magnet.
Or perhaps the broken symbols of bloody tyrannny should be left out in the outer wildnerness where they were flung in the first place.
Moe
ppGaz
Perhaps we should pay attention to the long list of problems we have in our own country, and let Western Europe — 400 or so million people who are the closest things to friends we have in the world — take care of their own business.
Stormy70
Me either. Course I never cared in the first place.
I feel bad for Europe’s people. I love my German relatives, and I know they are fed up with the way their country is going, and they are telling me that the frustration is building up. They are angry at the immigration policies, and the welfare policies. I don’t want a frustrated Germany, they tend to vent it out in disturbing ways.
Geek, Esq.
Wasn’t there some sort of moratorium declared on Nazi analogies?
Imo, statues of Lenin belong in museums, given that Leninism is dead.
ppGaz
Yes, those beer-sausage farts can be lethal.
Stormy70
Lenin was responsible for millions dying. I think he was trying to illustrate the point, not compare. We are talking about Germany here, who’s history is tainted with murderous ideology. Why put up a statue to glorify the past, now that time has gone by?
Stormy70
Exactly.
Moe Lane
“Wasn’t there some sort of moratorium declared on Nazi analogies?”
I believe that the rule is that you mustn’t call people Nazis, or compare their activities to that of Nazis. I’m merely sneering at these guys’ curious willingness to bring back junk from one set of genocidial murderous sociopaths while spurning the junk from another. Up to me, I’d leave it all in the weeds.
ppGaz
And we should know, eh Storm?
Half of my ancestry is German. The other half is also annoying.
Moe Lane
Now to really start a flame war… :)
Bah. When it comes to genetic flatuence, it’s Ireland first – and that’s the old duhbgall heritage, mind you; none of these fingall Danish-come-latelies – and the rest nowhere.
rilkefan
Nazi imagery is illegal in Germany, as is pro-Nazi speech.
rilkefan
Btw – slainte, Moe.
Stormy70
My husband is from good German stock, and he inherited the wind. I’m a Scottish lassie, I am, and too delicate for the wind. Not too delicate for the single malt, though. Must be true to the clan (Buchanon)! If it’s not Scottish, it’s crap!
Bernard Yomtov
I knew a day would come when I agreed with Moe on something. It’s here.
ppGaz
I have no problem with a statue of Lenin, as long as they put a red bulbous nose on him and big fluffy red hair.
Gary Farber
“Now that I think about it, right now I don’t give a shit what Europe thinks about Bolton.”
Because some “Left-wing Berlin senators want to reassemble a giant statue”? How many Senators? Who hold how much power? Which Senate? Will this actually happen? If so, what will happen? Does it, in fact, mean anything more than what 3 members of, say, either the NYC City Council, or the Oshkosh City Council, say somewhere, means in terms of them speaking for “North America”?
This is sort of bizarre, perhaps, John? If some German town councilor criticizes Creationists in America, will you end up agreeing, or attacking “Europe” because of it?
I’m very glad to see that Moe Lane is still alive, though.
Bob
When the indictments come down, will Bolton be perpwalked out of the General Assembly, or can he hide out there in the building with some kind of international immunity?
+++
Also, I am not surprised that Stormy would do racial profiling based on farting.
Stormy70
Seek help, dude. Or better yet, a sense of humor.
KC
You definitely got my vote there, Stormy.
ppGaz
As a matter of fact, the fart jokes were my idea. Don’t blame Stormy.
“It is an ill wind that blows no good.” — Balzac
linda
“The Communist period is the most asked-after period by tourists in Berlin,” said Natascha Kompatzki of Berlin Tourismus Marketing GmbH.
hey, just look at it as market forces at work.
Cliff
Take one overblown and misspun story, manufacture outrage, and hey presto we’ve justified Bolton’s recess appointment.
WTF John. I didn’t take you for a Zombies Ate My Brain conservative.
Frankly I figured you a few steps up from the folks who consider Randy Newman’s Let’s Drop The Big One a serious approach to foreign policy.
Stormy70
“It is an ill wind that blows no good.”—Balzac
Kimmitt
Cole’s been on a weird tear lately.
demimondian
Cliff notes…
You mean it isn’t? Oh, dear. Hey, guys…we need to rethink our grand schemes for global domination. Dropping the big one is no longer a serious approach to foreign policy.
For heaven’s sake. The story cited, if true, is offensive. The Berlin Greens base a large part of their strength on anti-American demagoguery, and have done so for many years. I don’t see why I should pretend that isn’t true, just because they aren’t right-wing demagogues.
Slartibartfast
Uh…Susan Sarandon? I wouldn’t characterize her as “chill”, except in that Children of Dune movie.
Sojourner
Okay, all you worshippers of capitalism – time to shut up on this issue.
The Disenfranchised Voter
What the hell is wrong with you lately, John? Care to explain how a story about some left-wing politicians in Germany wanting to erect a statue of Lenin has anything to do with all of Europe’s opinion of Bolton?
You are starting to sound like Rush Limbaugh for christs sake.
On top of that I now see that you have a link to stop the aclu? Jesus christ John, come back to the light before there is no hope. You were the only conservative I could read because you use to be intelligent. Lately however you have been very irrational, and it is quite disappointing.
John S.
I am also curious as to how the decision by a small number of Berlin local officials is representative of the entire continent of Europe.
If Europeans applied your standards to America, they would have written us off long ago based on any number of ridiculous incidents perpetrated by moronic local officals that occur in this country every day.
Unless a school board in a single county somewhere trying to ban the teaching of evolution in favor of creationism is representative of all of North America…
FloMunich
Oh please, not the 1000 crosses thing from Medienkritik again…
David Kaspar seems to misrepresent almost every issue he talks about. In his articles about those crosses he insinuated, that the Berlin Senate was responsible for the bulldozing, that it was bulldozed on 4th July, just to spite Americans, etc. (Read his post on the subject linked in the article refered to above for some inane hyperbole.)
In fact all it was, was a private (!) property dispute between the landowner, a bank, and the rent payer. The landowner terminated the contract permitting the crosses. Since the crosses’ owner refused to remove them himself, the bank went to court and got an eviction order. (Not really a surprise there.)
As for the fact, that the eviction took place on July 4th: Keep in mind, that this is a normal workday here in Germany. I doubt, that the bank wasted any thoughts on foreign holidays.
As for David’s argument, that Berlin should pay the 36 million EUR demanded by the bank for its property: the city has a debt of almost 80 billion EUR. If it had paid such an (insane) prize for the grounds, Berlin citizens would probably have stormed the city hall and lynched a few senators. Contrary to David’s article, Berlin had to pay exactly nothing for the demolition of the crosses, because the one who enforces the eviction order (the landowner) has to pay the costs.
After having debunked that: a quote from the newspaper article David uses as source for his Lenin statue scare:
So, if anything the statue will end up in a museum, where it belongs.
Please don’t parrot stuff you read on Medienkritik whithout checking the facts first. The two guys that operate it live in their own little world sometimes.
Ralf Goergens
The statue won’t be put up as an exhibit in a muesum, not as a monument to Lenin:
As to the crosses at Checkpoint Charly:
The private initiative which had put them up never told the bank it leased the land from that it never intended to remove them again, or else the bank would never have granted them them the lease in the first place.
Veeshir
Wow, just wow.
It doesn’t really matter about who put what crosses where.
I have an idea, how about the museum put up an exhibit about how communism tore the country in two, virtually enslaved 1/4 its population and killed the ones who tried to escape the enslavement? No? Okay, then how about a statue of one of the guys most responsible for the murderous form communism took?
That’s why I don’t give a crap about EUrope. If I see organized resistance to this then I’ll change my mind, until then, screw em.
If Russia goes aconquering again, I say, let em take western Europe, except for Italy and GB, protect eastern Europe and then send them angry letters telling them that if they don’t leave France we’ll be very, very, very angry and frown at them.
John S.
Another tortured logician…I’ll ask you the same question I asked John.
How is the decision by a small number of Berlin local officials representative of the entire continent of Europe?
Or do you think it is your rightful place to judge what everyone in the wrold does? While your at it, there’s a statue of Oliver Cromwell outside Parliament…he nearly destroyed England, yet they still erected a minument to him. Perhaps you care to rail against the British, too.
FloMunich
Did you even bother to check, whether there are such exhibits? I think not, because there are several in Berlin.
Are museums now supposed to throw relics away, because someone might be offended by the idea, that a Lenin statue still exists? It is placed in a museum for god’s sake! That’s the correct place for historical items which you want to preserve. (And like it or not, a Lenin statue is a historical relic.)
Following your logic, we would have to throw away any and all nazi uniforms, nazi flags and Hitler busts still in museums around the world.
Talk about a tempest in a teapot…
Even if the above story would hold water, dumping all Europeans in one pot with a few socialist-marxist ideologues in the Berlin senate is akin to a European considering all Americans ignorant bible-thumpers because of Jerry Fallwell or Pat Robertson.
space
Am I the only one who can read a goddamn article? They don’t want to put up a statue of Lenin. They want to put it in a freaking museum because that’s what tourists want.
Hello? That’s not communism. That’s called capitalism.
Keep reaching, John. Anything to take your mind off the fact that John Bolton was the worst political appointment ever.
TallDave
Just as long as there’s a plaque on the pedestal reading:
“100 MILLION KILLED”
Dave Ruddell
Can’t speak about Europeans, but I know many of my fellow Canadian do just that.
Veeshir
Even if the above story would hold water, dumping all Europeans in one pot with a few socialist-marxist ideologues in the Berlin senate is akin to a European considering all Americans ignorant bible-thumpers because of Jerry Fallwell or Pat Robertson.
I didn’t take that stand in a vacuum. After watching 4 years of EUropean leftists calling America a racist, imperialistic warmonger, after watching a German official compare Bush to Hitler and not be reprimanded, after watching Schroeder be elected on the strength of his anti-Americanism, I have lost patience.
Further, what does Lenin have to do with communism in Germany? He was dead long before Russia invaded Germany and occupied it. Why not Stalin?
And one question, how many statues of Ronnie Raygun are there in Berlin? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m seriously curious.
Ralf Goergens
Veeshir,
she wasn’t just reprimanded, she was fired for it. There was a huge scandal in Germany about this.
Schröder’s anti-Americanism helped to get him elected to some extent, for it rallied his most leftwing supporters around him, but the general elctorate didn’t vote for him on the strength of this. He won by a margin of just 6.000 votes, not least because his governemnt handled a large flooding shortly before the elections reasonably well.
The statue in question used to stand in East Germany, that’s what it has to do with Berlin.
TarHeelCP
I suppose by John’s line of thinking that Germans should be outraged at America because some Americans still fly the Confederate flag or the fact that we still have statues of Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee.
I’m sorry, I just don’t understand how acknowledging a person who played a significant role in your country’s history in a museum is offensive.
Veeshir
Lenin didn’t play a significant role in Germany’s history. Stalin did. So did Ronnie Raygun and Marshall and Truman.
She might have been fired Ralf, but not until a large crap storm where she tried to deny everything and Schroeder stuck up for her. According to that link it was two days before the elections and she hadn’t been fired. As she was not fired until after the election, my point is extra valid.
Quote
says Justice Min Herta Daubler-Gmelin, who compared Pres Bush’s actions to those of Hitler, will not be member of new government only after Bush refused to call and congratulate him.
I stand by remarks. I didn’t reach my current state of dislike in a vacuum.
Sojourner
From Altercation:
Ralf Goergens
But is was clear before the elections that she wouldn’t be a member of the next government, and the shit storm originated in the German media.
FloMunich
Huh? So we are now limited to displaying stuff about people, who played some “significant role in Germany’s history” in our museums? Guess we better stop showing all that egyptian, greek and roman stuff then. Are exhibitions about Pol Pot, imperial Japan, China etc. also off limits?
Besides: You are the one clamouring for an exhibition about communism. Without Lenin, that little revolt in Russia in 1917/18 just might have turned out quite differently. And we all know, what effect that communist empire in the east had on german (and world) history.
Lenin was smuggled into Russia by the german army during World War I. Lenin was the one that initiated the peace treaty of Brest-Litowsk in 1918.
In fact, Lenin probably had more influence on german than on american history. I sure do hope, you do not do any exhibits on him in America.
Spot the statement that won Schröder the 2002 election:
(1) “We won’t help America with a war in Iraq, because we feel such a war is unnecessary and dangerous.”
(2) “We won’t help America with a war in Iraq, because we hate them.”
If you think (1) is “anti-American”, then we will have to agree to disagree.
And something everyone seems to forget all the time: Schröder has supported and continues to support the war in Afghanistan. Germany still supplies one of the largest troop contingents to the ISAF.
But if a country or government is against the Iraq war, it is automatically “anti-American” these days it seems…
It looks rather like you are a bit too paranoid.
EOD
Veeshir
It looks rather like you are a bit too paranoid.
Of
Of
course I’m paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?