If you look over on the left, you will see this add for the UN Wire. I don’t generally pimp the ads I am running, but this isone you might want to click. I signed up, and it really is a nice way to get a look at what the UN is doing besides Oil-for-food, etc.
It is also a nice resource to find stories you would otherwise miss, such as this horrifying news:
Set on an arid plain southeast of Kirkuk, Hasira looks like a place forsaken by time. Sheep amble past mud-brick houses and the odd sickly palm tree shades children’s games. There is no electricity.
Yet along with 39 other villages in this region that Iraq’s Kurds have named Germian (meaning hot place), Hasira and its people have become noted for presenting the first statistical evidence in Iraq of the existence of female circumcision, or female genital mutilation (FGM), as critics call it.
“We knew Germian was one of the areas most affected by the practice,” says Thomas von der Osten-Sacken, director of a German nongovernmental organization called WADI, which has been based in Iraq for more than a decade.
Of 1,554 women and girls over 10 years old interviewed by WADI’s local medical team, 907, or more than 60 percent, said they had had the operation. The practice is known to exist throughout the Middle East, particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and Iraq. There is also circumstantial evidence to suggest it is present in Syria, western Iran, and southern Turkey.
But while this practice was suspected in the region, there was never solid proof that the procedure was so prevalent.
This is an atrocity that needs immediate attention.
Steve
This is a disgusting practice, but IMO, there are a lot of worse things going on in Iraq that could use the UN’s attention.
This practice is also common in certain parts of Africa, where we won’t lift a finger to stop acts of genocide, but we’ll gladly lecture the tribes on the inhumanity of their primitive rituals. Again, it’s a question of priorities.
Marcos
Religious extremism lends itself towards mysogynistic tendencies. It’s hard for me to understand why the women don’t rebel. They could fight back by castrating their men while they sleep.
db
I really don’t know what to make of it. I am not a medical doctor.
It is referred to as female circumcision in some parts and comes in a variety of forms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision
Before hitting the panic button, a lot of us guys should take a look down – literally.
I know, I know. Females got more nerve endings than men – it hurts them more, so on and so forth. But those people trying to stop “female genital mutilation” make a principal claim that it is inhumane to do this to unwilling minors. Well, I don’t remember having a whole of say in the matter when I popped out. So should that same principle apply to males here in the U.S.? Should we require males to wait until they’re 18 – ohh, the pain!!
Some years back I was strolling through some rural, county fair in Michigan and there was a booth set up by a woman and her son condemning the horrors of male genital mutilation. The woman even went so far to hand me literature saying that circumcised men were condemned to men. I then whipped my thing out and started slapping her with it. Ok, not really. I told her that seems a little harsh and unfair to me. She told me not to worry. She had a kit she could sell me that would allow the foreskin to grow back. Unbelievable! Has anyone else heard of this?
db
oops….
“condemned to
menhell.”Steve
I find the comparison of this practice to male circumcision to be utterly offensive. However, if there are any circumcised men out there who feel they have been horribly and involuntarily mutilated by their parents, I would be interested to hear their point of view.
db
I apologize. I should have more strongly worded my qualifying introduction as I really have no frickin’ clue about this. I have not met any mutilated/circumcised female to get their opinion on it or spoken with any m.d. about it. Frankly, I see just as much spin on this thing as the whole Plamegate fiasco (apologies for offending you by comparing female circumcision/mutilation to Rove’s political practices).
I do know about myself. And I do know all the people I have met in my life – men and women; and how normal everyone of us here views male circumcision.
I am not condoning this practice on females by saying that. Nor am I opposing it by the previous sentence. Nor, I am making a cultural excuse for particular practices in other societies.
I am just saying I have no frickin’ clue about this. But I do know about male circumcision here. And if it offends you that I don’t know – then please inform me here as to why are you are offended by my even speaking about male and female circumcision in the same paragraph. Really. I am looking to learn rather than offend.
Did I say I have no frickin’ clue?
jg
this was DEFINATELY on an episode of Law and Order. lol On the show they mentioned the point was to prevent women from enjoying sex so they won’t want it.
Steve
The comparison offends me because it suggests that my parents, not to mention millions of others who participate in the practice of male circumcisions, are some kind of barbaric butchers.
Jimmy Jazz
I’m not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but there is simply no comparison between the two. While the utility of male circumcision is certainly open for debate (you’ll find doctors on both sides), there is no question that female GM has one purpose: to remove sexual feeling and enjoyment.
db
Got to love wikipedia for some things:
Male Circumcision
Article even refers to all those Bible quotes that woman at the fair was throwing at me to say I was going to hell.
Note that time and place has sometimes made male circumcision appear as mutiliation or vice versa.
I also hear the “let’s stop female mutilation” camp say that it should be stopped because women are getting sick and dying from it. Well, is this because of the actual act itself or because of the lack of hygiene in those places performing the act? I’d like to see hear what the death rates during birth in these places – shouldn’t we be equally concerned about that?
If we know full well some cultures are going to continue in this practice, maybe we should spend more energy in first making sure there is appropriate hygiene rather than forcing people underground to perform this in even less safe conditions (apologies if it seems like I am making a comparison to abortions in pre Roe v Wade days… oops, did I just say that?). After that, then maybe we could also devote energies to educating those people about what we believe is the appropriate way to deal with our genitalia.
db
Does it really? Or is this just a purported subjective justification?
db
Hey, that lady in Michigan I met had worse things to say about your parents.
And do you think that you being offended by critics of male circumcision is in anyway similar to the feelings of outrage expressed by proponents of female circumcision/mutiliation?
Steve
Yes, there probably are people in the Middle East and in Africa who are like “hey, what we do to our female children is none of your business, butt out.” And there are probably people in Pakistan who think that gang-raping women is part of their culture and we should butt out.
You can’t reduce this to a simplistic view that “either we believe in telling people how to run their lives, or we don’t.” It DOES make a difference that female genital mutilation is a far worse practice than male circumcision.
CaseyL
“Does it really? Or is this just a purported subjective justification?”
GM removes the clitoris, the inner labia, and sometimes the outer labia as well.
The clitoris is the major nerve center and source of female orgasm.
Male circumcision that removes the foreskin is nowhere near equivalent. In order to be equivalent to GM as practiced in Africa and Arabia, the entire glans would have to be removed.
Do you think losing the glans would affect your capacity for sexual pleasure?
Jimmy Jazz
What? Tell you what Mr. Contrary, find me one reason or even some informed theories as to why this practice is a good idea, and why we shouldn’t devote effort to eliminating it. I think questioning the practice of male circumcision is fine, I have no doubt that it started as a religious custom as well, but as noted in the Wikipedia article you linked it evidently has some medical utility and I’ve never heard anyone argue it affects male sexual pleasure. Just don’t muddy the waters by linking the two practices because they really are not comparable.
John S.
I assure you, I do not condone genital mutilation, but this statement is not really true.
This would only apply to women who are primarily stimulated clitorally, however many women are stimulated far more by the fabled ‘g-spot’ – a bundle of nerves that forms a ridge on the interior upper region of the vagina.
Also, the brain is far more responsible for orgasm in women as new studies are showing, and there are even a few documented cases of women that can acheive orgasm merely by willing themselves to it (see last month’s issue of Wired).
db
From what I understand there are a variety of practices, some of which simply include pricking or piercings. Now, infibulation is clearly something that I think is grotesque. I will assume that the practices that the UN and others are condemning are such things as infibulation and other such things.
Good point. I would say most likely yes, although I haven’t tried nor know anyone has but I am not volunteering. Now, I have spoken with women who have been with men who have pierced glans. Their reviews are mixed. I have not spoken to any such men to get their views.
And Jimmy Z, I am not trying to be contrary or muddy the waters. Should I say it again? I have no FUCKING clue! I am just trying to learn about this.
James Emerson
Getting back to Germian, Iraq. Anyone have a clue about how female circumcision fared during Saddam’s reign? Was he for it, not care, or did he believe that it was a violation of women’s rights?
Seems like Saddam favored secular government, and generally encouraged women’s rights, as evidence by the large number of professional uncovered women loose in Iraq during his reign. One would expect the barbarity of having one’s sexual pleasure center removed in a mud hut with a rusty razor unbefitting of a modern secular nation. Of course, given the barbarity of the goings-on in Abu Ghraib (before the new management took over), maybe the term barbarity is relative to the beholder.
Just as the burka now has become mandatory in Southern Iraq (Basrah) as a precaution towards the prevention of acid burns (ala Taliban style) favored by the religious police, I wonder if female circumcision is enjoying a resurgence in popularity.
Oh the joys of freedom.
db
And Jimmy Z… you accuse me of linking the two. Well, maybe I did in my first post but let me adopt a favorite phrase in American politcs today. “They did it first.”
In my first post I wrote that one of the principal claims made against this practice is that it is done on unwilling minors. I did not make this claim; but can you see why someone who has no fucking clue about this might naturally think, “Hey, what about male circumcisions here in the U.S.?”
I apologize for having no fucking clue about this and incorrectly linking the two.
CaseyL
John S: I am female. Vaginal and G-spot orgasms are qualitatively different from clitoral orgasms: certainly pleasurable, but not nearly as focused/powerful. The clit is it, baby :)
It might possibly be equivalent to the difference between a male orgasm resulting from stimulation of the penis directly versus orgasm resulting from anal stimulation of the prostate, though maybe in reverse (I’ve heard the anal orgasm is much more powerful, but not being male, can’t offer firsthand testimony).
db
And one other thing Jimmy Z (because I am clearly perturbed by your comment to me)…
You tell me to find some studies that support this practice? Why? Nowhere did I ever say I condone this practice, so why should I go do research supporting this practice? I simply asked about it. You’re the one taking a clear stand against this practice, so tell me why is it not incumbent upon you to go to the library for me?
If you want, there is that anthropological study cited in Wikipedia referencing it that makes a claim for support but I sure as hell I am not going to run with some anthropological study to support this practice, especially since I NEVER made any claim that I condone this practice! Nor am I looking for any study to condone this practice! [again, tell me why I should find evidence for a position I never took?] There is the medical study on it also in the same Wikipedia article that just essentially makes the claim for better sanitation. Again, nothing I would consider satisfactory to condone this practice.
I HAVE NO CLUE. I AM NOT CONDONING THIS PRACTICE.
Jimmy Jazz
db: you have compared female GM and the opposition to this practice to:
1) male circumcision
2) the spin on Plamegate (!!!)
3) “abortion pre Roe v. Wade”
and then shriek “I have no clue” when called on these bizarre linkages.
Clearly, you don’t.
Stormy70
Try Googling the subject, then intelligently commenting instead of comparing a barbaric practice with male circumcision.
John S.
Perhaps for you Casey, but I think you can appreciate the fact that not every woman’s sexual experience is identical to yours.
And thank you for sharing. =)
db
For fuck’s sake, Jazzy Jimmy!
Plamegate and Roe v Wade were mentioned (parenthetically) as wry humor; far-off tangents that I could easily see some nut make from what I was saying.
The comparison to male circumcision? At no point did I definitively say, “Male circ. = female GM”. Nowhere did I equate the two.
I did ask about Male circumcision as a reference point because it is what I know and I don’t know about FGM. If that is comparing the two, then I am guilty. But if by compare, you mean “equate”, then that is bullshit. You say I make a “linkage”…. that’s bordering on “equate”. Again, bullshit.
I have to shreek I have no clue so people like you don’t think I am condoning the practice.
Again, you haven’t answered my question: why should I research a position I am not taking?
You’re taking a position in opposition. Nowhere have I asked you to find studies for me. You sound like such an expert on the topic, so please inform me.
Take a look at CaseyL’s response to me. She politely responded to my sincere question. She even was kind enough to use a reference point I am very familiar with. But I guess in your mind, the fact that she compared the clit to the glans, she then must be linking them and therefore equating them, so therefore, all men have clits.
John S.
In a biological sense of the male fetus, you are 100% correct. We all have labia, too.
db
No shit! Well, now I can’t wait to go masturbate tonight.
James Emerson
Stormy70 Says:
Your wish is my command…
db
And I will speak more calmly to the entire forum here. I feel I have to say this so people don’t link/equate/compare me to some barbaric butcher running around with a glass shard looking to carve up female genitalia.
I see shades of gray. It doesn’t help that I don’t know much about this topic.
Jimmy Jazz
That’s a good start. I responded the way I did because your posts on this subject seemed very silly and dismissive and I find this subject horrific and serious. If you’re interested in researching it, well and good. Your posts did not communicate that to me.
db
Can you say “patronizing”?
I was talking to everyone else. Not you.
Again, why should I provide evidence to you on a position I am NOT taking?…. And you question why I had to say I have no clue so many times?
You say the practice is horrific. Tell me why. Seriously. I don’t have female genitalia. I haven’t thought/heard/researched this topic to make any informed judgement. Perhaps, you are informed because you have female genitalia and can speak from that viewpoint. Or maybe, you don’t have female genitalia but you have researched the topic carefully enough to make an informed judgement as to why everyone else who hasn’t researched it as carefully should join you in your opposition to the practice.
I did not say it was horrific nor did I say it was NOT horrific. I am not staking a position. You have. So again, why do you tell me to provide you evidence in support of this practice?
CaseyL
db, do you have to have female genitalia, or expertise in female genitalia, before you can decide whether or not lopping off the major functional parts of that genitalia is horrific?
db
Absolutely not, Casey!
When I said I see shades of gray, that’s exactly what I meant.
Lopping off major functional parts of the female genitalia is one form of FGM that I can clearly say I oppose. No problem. But I do have to wonder is that merely my own subjective opinion that I have been socialized to believe in or is there something that we can ground this into – like some hard, scientfic studies.
If we are talking about functionality, I think someone can come along and point out to me what is functional, what is not functional, what is sort of functional and I’ll easily get lost as to what’s what.
I wish it were all clear to me. I wish I could just say to everyone, “Doing anything to our bodies that is not what God made us like should not be allowed.”
I disagree with what am I about to say entirely (YOU HEAR THAT, JIMMY JAZZ!!!) but you can find a good number of M.D.s who will tell you that the clitoris serves no functional purpose whatsoever [I wonder if the fact that the majority of MDs being male might have anything to do with that]. It is not required for reproduction and some will even go so far to say that orgasms can occur without any clitoral stimulation.
Because I refer to doctors who would say such things, does that mean I believe it should be lopped off? No. I believe the clitoris is functional for, at least, sexual pleasure (I may be wrong but I think I may even recall some recent studies debating its functionality with respect to reproduction/mate selection). But in what precise ways it is sexually functional, I will never know (I will never get to personally experience that point of view).
Can the clitoris be cut, modified, or pierced and still be functional? Well, I think it depends on exactly what is being done to it (clitoral piercings can actually enhance feelings, according to some women?!?!?) – so are we drawing a line in the sand and saying absolutely nothing can be done to it? Or are we going to make a list as to what is acceptable and what is not?
If we say absolutely nothing should be done with respect to femaile genitalia because it is all emblematic of patriarchy and female subjugation, aren’t we climbing a slippery slope to which people could then start throwing at us bikini waxes, ear piercings, and make-up?
I don’t consider myself a feminist but all these rambling thoughts sure seem to have gotten me there. And am I really getting way, way, off-topic. But shoot, I am feeling really defensive about having to explain my feelings about this…
oh yeah, Jimmy – just for you: I have no clue.
James Emerson
I get the feeling that prurient interests have hijacked this thread, but here is an interesting “article” that dove-tails into John’s FGM as atrocity thread.
It’s so refreshing to hear a moderate Muslim speak out against such perversions of the Q’ran
tBone
The only slippery slope I see here is the one that your head followed into your ass.
Here’s a little thought experiment for you: imagine that you’re 13 years old and you’re about to be married off to someone you don’t know. Now imagine that before the wedding, you are held down against your will and your foreskin is sliced off without the benefit of anesthetic. Do your “shades of gray” look a little more black and white now?
Kathleen
John – thanks for posting this. It is refreshing to see someone (esp. a man) caring about this.
DB – you are a moron. Most people who have “no clue” try to learn and don’t run their mouths off. Try it.
db
tBone, I really don’t know how to respond other than to say, “yeah, my head is up my ass about this issue, so thanks for helping me clear things up a bit about where I should stand.”
Funny, you should mention this thought experiment. But it is a bit closer to reality for me than a mere thought experiment. A good friend I grew up with was raised in a strict, Filipino family. At the age of 12, he came of age and was “forced” to have a circumcision without the benefits of any medication. I was there with him right before. I stood outside the door of the room where it was performed. I was with him at his family’s party celebrating the event. Was he scared going in? Yes. Was he in pain afterwards. Yes. Did he tell me how much he hated his family and culture at the time? Yes. I remember years later in high school, he then reflected upon it and said he was glad he went through it – that it, in fact, was the best thing that happened to him.
To tell you the truth – No, your little thought experiment does not help my “shades of gray” any.
I was harshly accused earlier of making comparisons to males getting their foreskins cut and females getting their clitoris cut – being told they are not even the same ballpark. Would you like me to accuse you of the same thing?
db
Thanks, Kathleen. I am sure that is a practice followed with the utmost rigor among all people commenting on this site. I will try better in the future to learn more about issues before I admit I have no knowledge about them.
But here’s something to ponder: Would you have found my comments more acceptable if I told I am actually a doctor?
A fundamental, Christian woman told me once that I was going to go to hell because I am circumcised – actually “ran at the mouth” for 15 minutes to be more precise. But I guess it was okay for her to do that because she was so informed about the topic from all her daily Bible readings. I’ll be sure to try that out for a change.
db
And FGM is not just happening abroad; it is happening very close to home.
The GA legislature passed legislation banning “female genital mutilation.” An ammendment to this bill added “piercings” to the list of types of female genital mutilation.
I do not condone FGM. I do not condone the GA legislative bill. I do not condone Georgia – except for a few fun bars in Atlanta and Athens.
db
And I should never have bothered to try to ask questions or say what I THOUGHT (what I think is different than what I believe; or so I like to think)….
Instead, I should have just said Yeah, what Dr. B said
And in case, anyone reading the last few posts is wondering what set me off – it was Jizzy Jimmy’s telling me to go find him evidence for a position I was NOT taking. I am still waiting for an answer to the question, Jizzy Jim. In case, you forgot: why are telling me to go find studies on a position I am NOT defending?
tBone
db, the fact that your Filipino friend was able to rationalize and come to terms with his experience doesn’t justify what was done to him. And what’s done to females is often much worse.
As many others have said, go educate yourself. Maybe then you’ll understand why people take offense when you pose asinine questions that conflate forced mutilation with bikini waxes and piercings.
db
Yeah, sort of like the GA state legislature. But those are elected officials, so I guess we can assume that they are educated about issues they are passing into law.
tBone – people were getting upset at me for admitting I don’t know what to think about the topic and then asking about male circumcision. Your thought experiment linked the two more so than I did.
benny
female circumcision CAN simply mean pricking of the clit, or removing the clitoral hood. (FGM does not mean one thing, it refers to a group of practices).
Removing the clitoral hood is exactly the same as removing the foreskin. Living in europe, where we do not butcher our sons or daughters, i can easily equate this form of female mutilation to male circumcision.
Perhaps some of you insular yanks will disagree.