Looks like things are turning ugly in the Gaza strip:
Hundreds of Jewish activists clogged the main road into the Gaza Strip’s largest Jewish settlement here today in an effort to block flat-bed trucks being used to move out the belongings of families who are being evacuated as part of Israel’s withdrawal from the region.
Throngs of teenage boys and young men linked arms and pushed against rows several lines deep of the police special forces unit. Many were hauled off by their arms and legs, thrashing and shouting out to the police as they were dragged away, “A Jew does not expel a Jew!” The phrase has become one the main slogans of the struggle against the Gaza withdrawal.
A total of 47 people were taken out of the settlement, a police spokeswoman said, and one was arrested.
The unrest came the day before the first of the Gaza Strip’s 21 Jewish settlements were to be forcibly evacuated by the Israeli police and soldiers.
I am surious what you all think of this.
Mike
I guess I don’t understand why they have to be removed. Can’t they just live there under Palestinian rule if they so choose?
DougJ
I have MAJOR concerns about this pull-out from Gaza. Scriptures says that the rapture cannot come unless Israel controls the Holy Lands. There is some debate about whether or not this includes Gaza, but there are certainly many scholars who believe that it DOES include Gaza. So think that possibly this is a big mistake with ramifications far beyond the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
ape
sad but necessary.. isn’t that the widespread view?
whatever else, it’s a great PR victory for Israel.
Without making any judgements, consider an outlet like the BBC, widely perceived to be anti-Israel: this has been the the occasion for its broadcasting the largest number of Israeli voices since the assassination of Rabin. possibly ever.
EG. last night they got 4 youngsters in Tel Aviv and asked them what they thought.
Again not making any judgements, its a classic human interest story.. build-up, suspense, accusation, tragedy..
The whole world is hearing the voices of Israelis.
capelza
Am I the only one here old enough to remember when the settlement first started? Anyone paying attention knew that they would cause problems. As they have. I wish I had more sympathy, but I don’t.
Geek, Esq.
They shouldn’t be forcibly evicted.
They should just have to swear loyalty to the local Palestinian authorities.
Steve
I hope this has some tangible effect on the overall conflict. This was a major, major sacrifice for Israel to undertake.
While I probably can’t imagine the feelings of the settlers losing their homes on what they believe to be sacred ground, as a Jew I find it sad to see them playing the Holocaust card.
docG
Sigh. Do I have to point out the obvious? Basing political decisions on one’s interpretation of what Scripture says has a looooonnnnng history of bad outcomes. Do you really think that your God’s overall plans can actually be thwarted by politicians? If so, your belief system and your God is weaker than skimmed water.
over it
DougJ….
If indeed God has deemed it necessary that Israel controls the Holy Lands….do you really think that man has any control over when/if that will happen? Don’t you think that it will happen when God wants it to?
IF you believe in the Scripture, and IF you believe in an all powerful God….Israel will have control of those lands when HE wants them to have control of them. Since I have not heard of any Israeli soldiers being ‘smited’…it appears as though now is not that time.
Of all the arguments against Iraeli withdrawel from Gaza…I think that this is the the weakest one. For, to really believe in it…one must believe that God is helpless against the Israeli army. Those who believe that the withdrawel is somehow disrupting God’s plan….have little faith in God’s ability to take care of his own scheduling.
Big picture…the thought that mankind can somehow control when the Rapture is going to happen is, from a theological standpoint, ludicrous. From a secular standpoint…well…the whole idea is downright delusional.
over it
Heh…Doc beat me to the punch. ;)
docG
over it: Liked the details you added!
Stormy70
It is a sad situation, but one that needed to happen in order for Israel to defend the majority of it’s people. Pull everyone back, then defend against the spillover from the Palestinian civil war, which is already starting to occur. Let the various Pal. terrorist groups fight each other for a change. Eventually, the moderate Palestinians may have a chance at a real state, but I’m pessimistic. Of course, any attack against Israel should be met with an immediate butt-kicking administered by the IDF, if they want a war, give it to them.
ape
surely DougJ was being ironic? very funny, i thought.
Boronx
one must believe that God is helpless against the Israeli army.
The Israeli army has earned itself a reputation.
KC
I’m beginning to think DougJ isn’t serious anymore.
capelza
Hasn’t Israel asked us to help pay for the withdrawl? What do you all think of that?
Brad R.
Stormy’s got it right:
It is a sad situation, but one that needed to happen in order for Israel to defend the majority of it’s people.
The Israeli government should never have encouraged them to move there in the first place. I’m not an anti-Israel lefty by any stretch of the immagination, but exporting your citizens into territory you’re occupying is a major no-no. Sharon came to the realization that he couldn’t keep Gaza in legal limbo much longer. Either:
a.) He would keep the settlements in place and claim Gaza as part of greater Israel, meaning he’d have to either absorb the Gaza Palestinians into the population, or simply expel them. Neither is a good idea.
-or-
b.) Give up the settlements, which were illegal to begin with.
He made the right choice.
Brad R.
Hasn’t Israel asked us to help pay for the withdrawl? What do you all think of that?
I have no problem with that, nor do I have a problem giving aid to Israel for defense.
Nate
Against WHOM?
salvage
It’s a good thing and maybe the first step to the two people living side by side like civilized human beings rather than blood soaked barbarians.
The fact that it’s the fundamentalists on both sides that are screaming the loudest about angry sky gods is all the evidence I need that it’s the right thing.
The only other eventual alternative is genocide.
If he pulls this off Sharon might wipe away some of the blood on his own hands from the Lebanon debacle.
Stormy70
Is this a trick question? Are we being punk’d? Hi, Ashton!
Nate
Newsflash, Stormy: they’ve been giving the Palestinians a “butt-kicking” for over fifty years. “Butt-kicking after “butt-kicking.” Amazing how the wretched Palestinians have even survived after half a century of “butt-kickings”, occupation, and oppression. If they actually defy the fanatics on *both* sides of the fence and create an actual state, it will be a miracle. You should be rooting for that instead of lusting over the prospect of more “butt-kickings.” They’ve had quite enough.
Dave Ruddell
Beginning…?
Mike S
I have had my problems with Stormy but I don’t see anything that could be described as “lusting over the prospect of more butt kickings.” As a matter of fact I see nothing in her comment that I find even wrong.
Stormy70
The Palestinians are a thinnly disguised death cult right now, complete with baby martyr outfits, and child militant parades. Their school books are full of the vilest anti-semitic literature, and their mothers want them to grow up to be suicide bombers. If you are raped, best to take one for the cause and strap a bomb on yourself, the better to blow up Israeli teens. Then they will let you into heaven as a martyr, and you will have gained honor for your family. They lynch people in the street and have a revolving door jail for terrorists. Israel has never released the type of full scale slaughter they deserve. My sympathy blew up, along with countless innocent people. Shooting toddlers in the head is such an effective PR tool, don’t you think? Perhaps after the Palestinian bloodbath occurs in their new state, the moderates who survive can build an actual functioning state, but I seriously doubt it. I would love being proved wrong, but the track record of the disingenuous Palestinians will probably bear out.
Tim F
Geek’s post for teh win.
Stormy70
I am not lusting over an Israeli butt-kicking, since I believe the radicals will fight each other. Let them do the fighting in their own state, without involving the Israelis. The Palestinians will have to prove themselves once they get their own state, and maybe a decent leader will arise to get them there, and everyone will have peace. We’ll see.
tBone
See, DougJ, you’ve got to rein it in a little. Your recent work has been extremely funny, but at the expense of verisimilitude. If you want to maintain the illusion, you’re going to have to dial down the Crazy-ometer a few notches.
Andrei
Frightening. I agree with Stormy for a change. Someone check my pulse.
However, I don’t agree with this sentiment:
I think that’s a vast over-generalization that has a knack of getting us into a no-win sitaution in that region.
A similar way to think about it: if we were to treat everyone who lived in the ghettos of Chicago or Los Angeles as nothing more than crack whores and drug dealers, when it’s clear that not everyone in the ghetto is that but suffer from nearly insufferable living conditions, we give them little opportunity to rise above it and instigate real change.
Should we hold all Palestinians accountable for the actions of groups like Hamas? Absolutely. If terror groups keep their actions up after this incredible first move by the Israelis and not enough Palestinians rise up and own the problem themselves to stop them, then like Stormy, I’m all for an all out fight to quash any of it.
But we also have to be careful not to make rash generalizations the people of Palestine that give them little room to pull themselves out of what is unquestionably a very difficult circumstance. We need to find ways to get those Palestinians who aren’t buying into the cult of death and terror a way to rise above it themselves and end it. And we won’t be helping them if we make too many overly broad generalizations like “the Palestinians are thinly disguised death cult.”
PotVsKtl
You missed the point. When people say “radicals on both sides” they don’t mean “two different radical groups on one side.” There are violent radical Israeli settlers as well, in case you haven’t been paying attention.
Nate
Mike S, I think your “wrong” and my “wrong” are polar opposites. But then again, I don’t usually see people, even right-wingers, smearing a whole people, innocent and the guilty. I’m you you support Stormy in his heaping abuse….it’s very “in” right now.
Stormy, your curdled and cntermptuous language regarding the Palestinians–an entire people who have been roundly abused and despised–just has certain resonances, but I can’t quite recall where I’ve heard them before. Hmmm…
Steve
Stormy is a little worked up, but just to be clear, I hope we all understand that the Jews of the 1930’s were not in the business of sending suicide bombers into Berlin hospitals.
DougJ
Excuse me, but go check out the Sheehan section where you’ve got half the people calling Sheehan Mother Theresa and the other half calling Michelle Malkin a major conservative thinker. And then tell me I’m the one who is crazy.
Mike S
Sorry I don’t meet with your spproval. I guess I’m off your X-mass card list.
You may actually want to take notice of the times on my comment and Stormy’s subsequent comment. An honest person would read my comment and then scroll up to find what I was defending. Had said honest person done so, they would have read this.
Stormy70 Says:
gratefulcub
Israel is withdrawing from land that they took and occupied against the Geneva Convention. They spent 30 years setting up settlements that are not in accordance with the Geneva Convention. Their goal, Sharon’s goal, was to have so many settlers that they couldn’t withdraw. The Israeli government doesn’t really want Gaza anyway, it has no water or farmland. It is a slum. The prize is the West Bank, where most of these settlers are going to be resettling. New settlements continue to pop up in the WB.
i have sympathy for individual settlers that were told by their government, “you can’t settle there, but we will give you a ride and a house if you do.” Their homes are being taken away.
That doesn’t change the fact that the settlements are illegal and morally bankrupt. Settlements are the way that Israel stole the land.
i know i know, I am a terrorist lover and ‘don’t i know that the palestinians kill babies.’ The settlements were not in retaliation against terrorism. The settlements were first, and they were wrong, and they are wrong. Terrorism is an unappropriate response, and I do not side with people blowing up busses, but the actions of terrorists can’t be used to justify settlements.
Let the bashing begin
tBone
Hey, I never said you were alone.
And whether you’re a parody of a right-right-right-winger or the real deal, I salute you, sir. Your posts give me more entertainment value (intentional or not) than anyone else here.
PotVsKtl
Gee, I wonder what comment an “honest person” might assume you were responding to?
Mike S
You’ll probably never know since you are either dishonest or too stupid to go back through the actual posts.
Here’s a tip for you, knuckle head.
Original Stormy post
August 16th, 2005 at 1:10 pm
My defence of Stormy post.
August 16th, 2005 at 2:02 pm
Stormy post you took offence to, that was offencive.
August 16th, 2005 at 2:07 pm
Stormy post quoted in your last comment
August 16th, 2005 at 2:12 pm
Nate
Steve,
Exactly! Nor did they burn down the Reichstag or commit any of the many crimes they were accused of committing.
But do you know what some of them did, when things got worse than dire and they knew that living in a ghetto was prelude to extermination? They resisted, though they knew the cause was hopeless. How’s that for a parallel?
I don’t condone suicide bombings or hate speech on either side or massacres on either side. *Obviously*. But the Palestinians have had their land taken from them and have endured 50 yaers of Blame the Victim, while a far, far stronger, “butt-kicking” power occupied them. I’m pretty sure all you brave boys in this thread would resist if this happened to you. I’m not brave, and I know I would!
Darrell
grateful cub wrote:
Would it be too much to expect from you lefties to have some honest acknowledgement that the Gaza strip was seized (from Egypt) in the 1967 six day war, a DEFENSIVE war against Israel by arab aggressors? Tell us gratefulcub, has the victor of a defensive war ever before in history been asked to give back land it seized during such war? Do you also demand Poland to give back land to Germany which it took possession of after WWII after Germany’s defeat? Maybe Germany shouldn’t have started WWII if it didn’t want to lose land
Had the bloodthirsty arabs not attacked Israel in the first place, then this wouldn’t have been an issue. But they did. Don’t like Israel in Gaza or West Bank? Well the arabs should have thought about that before attacking Israel in the first place, don’t you think?
I believe the Israelis are making this move to better protect their population. But all this horsesh*t about violations of Geneva convention without acknowledging the the arab aggression which started it all is dishonest as hell in my opinion
Nate
Mike, with all the name-calling, it’s really hard to tell who’s the knucklehead or the dishonest person.
What I meant by my reply to you is I think Stormy’s posts are all cut from the same cloth: hatred of the Palestinians. That’s why I cited his second, offensive post, because I believe they all say the same thing. And I find that….offensive.
The Palestinians have been villified long enough. Let’s just wish them good luck, because they need it so very much and their strength will, paradoxically, make Israel more secure. But yes, I know there are many on this blog who seem to relish morally bankrupt occupations of other peoples.
gratefulcub
Darrell,
If two men decide to duel, the one that draws first is not the aggressor. The war of 1967 is not as simple as the Israelis defended themselves against arab aggressors.
Defense Guy
Nate
Your equation falls apart when you realize that the Jews resisting, were not killing innocent bystanders. They were fighting the actual uniformed Nazi soldiers who were trying to round them up. I hope you can see the differance.
In addition, you are mistaken if you think that the Palis biggest problem has been or will be the Israelis. It isn’t. Their biggest problem is that none of the top 3 organizations in the running to ‘lead’ them, namely the PLO, Hamas, or Hezbullah, seem to have the best interests of the actual people at heart. Hell, you can’t even get Hamas or Hezbullah to pretend that they don’t want to just kill Jews.
So yes, the individual Pali who wishes no harm on anyone is perhaps the most fucked person on the planet.
Nate
Ah, Darrell. You’re making Stormy seem well-nigh even-tempered. That’s a BROAD brush you’re using!
gratefulcub
DG,
100% agreement here. The leaders of Palestine are some of the worst in the world. If Israel withdrew completely and turned Gaza and WB over to the PLO, I don’t know what would ensue, but it wouldn’t be pretty.
Israel is in a tough spot now. They held onto that land for 38 years and counting. Extremism always spreads under oppression. Now, every political movement, except the PLO, is just a political front for a terrorist organization. That is not a defense of the PLO, they have different problems, and one of them is being a bit too close to terrorists themselves. At this point, if they do the ‘right’ thing, they will create a failed state filled with terrorists sitting on their border. If they continue the occupation, this situation just continues to grow worse and spread.
Darrell
That’s rich, considering you characterized Israel as the “unjust” one in violation of Geneva conventions and all. Name for us then the arab/Israeli war in which Israel was the aggressor if it’s “not so simple” and all. Name one war Israel fought against arabs which was not a defensive one and you might have a point. I’ve never heard of any country in history other than Israel, asked to return land seized in a defensive war..
Darrell
They took the land in a DEFENSIVE war because bloodthirsty arabs trying to extinguish Israel’s right to exist attacked them from Day 1. Cut the dishonest crap about “oppression”. Arabs attacked Israel and got their asses handed to them. How the hell is that “oppression”?
gratefulcub
I am in no way saying that Israel is the only one to blame for the situation.
But, to say that Israel has fought a serious of devensive wars is, in your words, dishonest. They ran arabs from their homes in 48, and yes, arabs attacked jews too. They murdered villages of arabs in 56, while turning scores more into refugees. Ben Guiron says that all of the problems exist today because ‘we didn’t finish the job in 56.’ 67 was not some defensive war in which Israel was attacked by ‘bloodthirsty arabs’. The invasion of and occupation of lebanon was not defensive.
But Darrell, you use the term ‘bloodthirsty arabs.’ How objective can I expect you to be?
And yes, winners of defensive wars do give back land. Winners of aggressive wars do not.
Mike S
I can’t read what’s in Stormy’s heart, but I don’t think she hates all Palestinians. I think she hates people who would kill innocent men, women and children and may have painted with too broad a brush. I think her reference to moderates bears that out.
Darrell
gratefulcub wrote:
Not sure where you’re reading your history but I’m calling bullshit on you. Arabs rejected any UN partition which would give jews a home, and as soon as the UN administered Israeli partition took effect, they were IMMEDIATELY attacked by arab states, not just Palestinians. Yes, quite a number of Palestinians fled their homes in area ravaged largely by arabs as a result of the war.. important to note, this was a war INITIATED by the arabs.
As for murdered Palestinian villages in 56, I haven’t heard about it.. Have links? Because in 1956, the Israelis were (as always) fighting arab aggression, this time against Egypt who was launching guerrilla attacks against Israel.. that was the year of the Suez canal war
Oh no? Let’s see, arab armies massing on Israel’s border threatening to “drive the jews into the sea”, but that wasn’t a defensive war on the part of israel? Of course not. I didn’t expect you to have a clue.
And yes, when EVERY SINGLE WAR Israel has fought has been a defensive one, then yes, given that reality, and it is a reality, then it is entirely accurate to refer to the arabs as “bloodthirsty”. Seriously, what else would you call them? Oh let me guess, the Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians had a ‘right’ to drive israel into the sea, right?
Darrell
gratefulcub wrote:
The hell you weren’t. You’re lying. In your very first post you said:
No acknowledgement on your part whatsoever of the arab wars against Israel which resulted in the capture of Gaza. Nope, you didn’t mention a word of it. Not one word. Nothing but Israel = violation of Geneva convention. Therefore, Israel must be the bad guys. If you stated anything else which provided any semblance of balance to mitigate those statements, then point me to them. Because I don’t see anything. You made a one-sided dishonest smear against Israel and now you’re backpeddling after being called on it
Hollyweird
capelza Says:
Hasn’t Israel asked us to help pay for the withdrawl? What do you all think of that?
August 16th, 2005 at 1:18 pm
Actually none of the funds provided to settlers leaving the strip have come from the US.
gratefulcub
I was referring to the post I was writing.
Even land took and occupied in a defensive war is against the geneva convention.
To blame one side for everything is ridiculous. I am backpeddling on nothing, both sides are to blame, including the Israelis. They are the one militarily occupying millions of people. Most Palestinians were not born until after 1967, how is it justifiable for those men to be under military occupation?
Darrell
gratefulcub wrote:
Has it occurred to you that this is an example of unbelievable Israeli generosity, permitting Palestinians to stay in land taken by Israel in a defensive war against arab aggression? Israel was attacked and she defended herself. Israel would have been fully within its rights to eject every Palestinian out of Gaza in those circumstances fighting for survival.. as have victors in virtually every war throughout history. But they didn’t. Imagine what the arabs would do if the roles were reversed though? an honest answer to that question says it all
You initially laid all the blame on Israel. Of course Israelis aren’t 100% clean in this fight. But at the same time, both sides are not ‘equally guilty’. The arab side has been far more aggressive, bloodthirsty and savage. By and large, it has been Israel, not the arabs who have made the efforts for peace. No honest comparison really between the two sides. This is almost entirely the fault of the arabs. Which is why your initial post laying all the blame on Israel was so outrageous
jg
AFAIK, Israel went preemptive in 67. They were going to be attacked and decided to just wipe out the opposition first. Good move. When you REALLY are under threat you shoud act.
I don’t see why they should give back the land though. If it would stop the terrorism, maybe but I don’t think it will. The Palis would then just demand the land they didn’t lose at war.
Andrew J. Lazarus
The withdrawal and the Security Fence—even though I believe its route is unfair to the Palestinians—have moved Ariel Sharon from the Eschatological Wing of the Israeli center-right into the Pragmatic Wing. I don’t think the importance of this can be underestimated.
The civilian Gaza settlements cost more to protect in Israeli troops than could possibly be justified by conventional military purposes. The security provided by the Gaza settlements was of two types: first, for those who believed it was sticking with a Divine Plan, and second, for those who felt that it was a territorial manifestation of keeping Palestinans servile and inferior. Sharon was never religious, but he was certainly a believer of the second type—that the occupation could be maintained forever and the Palestinians could be kept hostile but quiet through systemic brutal subjugation—when he was first elected.
The death of the loathsome Arafat gives the Palestinians another shot at getting it right. The Israeli center has finally come to life.
Stormy70
Wow, go away for a little while…
Sorry, I did paint with a broad brush. I know there are decent and hardworking Palestinians, who have to keep their heads down because their leadership sucks more than 10,000 black holes. I think the settlements have to be dismantled, they are not worth the blood and treasure it costs to defend them. There does need to be a Palestinian State, and they will have to fight themselves to see who will come out on top. Israel is doing the right thing here, I believe. Hopefully, the Palestinians will do the same. I am pessimistic, though, based on their past actions.
StupidityRules
Darrell, you’re not actually saying that you would be ok with Israel doing ethnic cleansing?
Darrell
StupidityRules wrote:
No, I haven’t beaten my wife this week
StupidityRules
You beat up one of your kids instead?
Bob
Why should they give back the land? It’s international law that land a country gains in a war has to be returned after the war. You can’t boot people off the land either.
It’s one of those international things.
Mike S
I’m glad you posted that Stormy. I may dislike your politics but I have never felt you were guilty of what you were accused of.
jg
Really?
If it is true I guess we have no grounds to tell other people to observe international law anymore.
DougJ
I, for one, do not think that ethnic cleansing is the answer in Israel. Or elsewhere for that matter. But I very deep misgivings about what is going on in Gaza right now, not just because of the scriptural reason I gave earlier, but because I feel it sets a dangerous precedent. It seems to me that Hammas has essentially chased Israel out of Gaza. Giving in to the terrorists like this is a mistake. It was a mistake when Clinton gave Al Qaeda a free pass for the Kenyan embassy and USS Cole bombing, it was a mistake when Carter gave Iran a free pass on the hostages, and it’s a mistake what Israel is doing now.
Andrew J. Lazarus
The Oslo Accords have come in for a bad rap and some of it is, at least with the old 20-20 hindsight, deserved. But the best thing about the accords is that they provided a framework for disengagement in which neither side would have to look like they were retreating under pressure.
Since very few of the suicide attacks originate in Gaza, I would think Hamas’ boasting power would be limited.
Nate
Well, then, Stormy and I pretty much agree, once you take away the “bloodthirsty Arabs”–oh, wait, sorry, that was Darrell with *his* brush–and the Blame the Victim crap.
Except for this:
As long as one side sees themselves as blameless, and the other as guilty, there will *never* be peace. The actions of Israel, scrubbed of all propaganda, have been horrifying at times and not what anyone would expect from a people who have suffered so much. But the Holocaust does not give them, or anyone, a reason to treat others badly, to mow them down and take their homes and liveliehoods. How anyone can defend such actions is beyond me, but I do have to remember where it is I’m posting…
jg
Clinton didn’t give anyone a free pass. No chance he would have got any congressional support to do more than he did though, ‘wag the dog’ and all. Plus you forget the Khobar Towers, bad wingnut, you should be well versed in Clintonology.
I agree but was it better that Reagan exchanged arms for the hostages (or did you think the Iran/Contra thing appeared all on its own years later)?
farmgirl
Darrell sez: “Of course Israelis aren’t 100% clean in this fight. But at the same time, both sides are not ‘equally guilty’. The arab side has been far more aggressive, bloodthirsty and savage.”
Odd, then, that during the latest intifada (beginning September 2000):
3,653 Palestinians and 1,063 Israelis have been killed (including 686 Palestinian children and 122 Israeli children); 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished while more than 60 new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land.
I’m getting my figures from http://www.ifamericansknew.org; what are you basing your assertions on?