Anderson Cooper just was yelling on CNN at Mary Landrieu- “Who are you mad at?” (Video here)
Because, as you know, this is someone’s fault.
I intend to blame the snowfall this winter on Senators Byrd and Rockefeller. And Shelley Moore Capito. And Governor Manchin, even though I like him.
jg
If any of those people cut the funding that would pay for removing the snow or disaster recovery from a huge blizzard I’ll blame them too.
John Cole
A.) Anderson Cooper is in Mississippi.
B.) A colonel from the Army Corps of Engineers was just on CNN explaining that even if the funding had been maxed out, and the tail end of these projects had continued to be under construction, it would not have mattered. Of course, he is probably just an apologist. The levee construction projects as the cause of this disaster is a canard- it would not have mattered. It didn’t matter.
C.) At some point, the actual scope of this tragedy will sink in to even the partisans trying to make hay out of this. Not the scope of human tragedy, which is clear on the television, but the scope in terms of land mass involved. The hundreds of thousands of square miles of affected areas, the actual carnage and inability to move, the sheer number of downed bridges and blocked roads and the size of the flooded area in New Orleans. And then, maybe then, when a clearer picture of what is going on and what has transpired, you will recognize how absurd it is to simply say ‘we aren’t responding fast enough.’
D.) Just out of curiosity, do you think there is more that could be done that isn’t? Do you think they are holding back?
Of course, none of that matters to you all. And I am clearly just a Bush apologist.
Nikki
No one is to blame for the hurricane. However, someone is to blame for the lack of coordinated relief effort after the hurricane. Americans are dying as if this were a third world nation. Who are you mad at?
ppGaz
You are right about the levees. The levees are a palliative, as they currently exist. They almost guaranteed that in a worst-case type hurricane scenario, the current circumstances would be created. This is not exactly news.
What’s troubling to me is that the state and local authorities apparently didn’t think through what would happen in exactly this (Katrina) scenario: One or two days’ warning that a cat 3-4-5 storm is going to hit this area …. and the city fills up, predictably, with water.
What exactly did they think would happen, and why didn’t they plan for it better? Who came up with the goofy idea that a “mandatory evacuation” means anything to people who have no means, no transportation, and nowhere to go?
AFAIC most of this has very little to do with Bush. It has a lot to do with the state and city governments in LA and New Orleans.
Jason
I saw the clip you are referring too and I was impressed by the Cooper’s genuineness. You could tell he was emotionally affected by what he had seen. Seeing the emotion and bias from a media figure in the middle of a catastrophe is different than seeing someone who is reading talking points from a New York studio.
I thought Landrieu’s responses were very classy though, she is right, now isn’t the time to place blame.
This isn’t Bush’s fault but FEMA’s response to this catastrophe has been obscene.
Vladi G
Guess we’ll never know, will we.
I used to think that about 9/11. That was before I heard the President mention it about 15 times in every single subsequent speech. Starts at the top, I guess.
I think what we’re saying is that a lot more could have been done to prepare. Maybe you think this isn’t the time to bring that up. Fair assessment, I suppose.
jg
A. OK.
B. The effort wouldn’t have done enough so its good that he cut the funding?
C. Its already sunk in. I think the point some of us are trying to make is it shouldn’t take any time for this to sink in. Just watching Discovery Channel at all in the past few years would tell you this was possible. I’m waiting for it to sink in to vacation boy. The fact that the rescue people seem unprepared for massive flooding in a city bordered by levees is ridiculous. And you’re problem is with the people who point out the absurdity?
D. I don’t think they’re holding back I think they’re late. I think they’re late because our leader was busy elsewhere and took a long time giving this trajedy his full attention.
jobiuspublius
Take a wider view, Mr. Cole, and you’ll see that Dear Leader has failed here, but, he’s not alone. May Hurricane Election ’06 wash our government clean, from top to bottom, of Dear Leader, his allies, sychophants, and enablers.
BTW, were you this kind to President Carter?
Demdude
I’ve been watching the cable networks for the last couple of days. These guys are in the middle of one of the biggest disasters in our history. The human tragedy would make a serial killer cry. They are personnally being asked for help and not able to respond.
I guess I’m saying people are just yelling because that’s all they can do. I think we can let them yell and get it out of their systems. Even the blow dried anchor folks have emotions (well, most of them).
Senator Landrieu showed a lot of class. A good thing to emulate for all of us.
Far North
Today’s FEMA is Bush’s FEMA. Bush’s FEMA is run by pals of Bush, not by people with emergency response experience. FEMA’s funding has been gutted as Bush gave priority to putting much of what FEMA does into the private sector. So, FEMA is hamstrung by incomptent management. Oh, and the money for the levees went to Iraq.
Now, why would anyone be mad?
John Cole
Sure we will. There were engineers on site when they failed. They know what the special projects were designed to do.
I have no doubt there was ‘more’ that could be done, as there always is ‘more’ that can be done. Particularly in hindsight.
But, again, the fact that all of the prepositioned resources were just about to go in to provide relief in NO when the levees failed, causing them to fall back and wait until it was safe, lest we lose the forces who are now providing the relief they can, made this even worse.
This was not one disaster. This was a series of disasters. The looting and violence is simply an additional disaster on top of the others. Had the levees held and there been no violence, the sheer breadth of this disaster would have FEMA stretched.
I mean, you guys do know how big the affected area is, how total the devestatiopn was, and how many peopled are involved?
demimondian
I agree with ppg, here. (And, apparently, with the Local Right Wing Apologist, to my shame.) The levees were designed for a certain circumstance, and they were stressed beyond it, and they failed. Tragic as it is — and it is — that’s enginneering. You make guesses, you pick tolerances, and if you were sufficiently wrong, people die.
I’m glad that I have yet to be that wrong. On the other hand, someday, one of my designs will come up snake-eyes. I hope I can look at myself in the mirror the next morning.
That said, why didn’t NO build a mechanism for transporting a lot of people a long distance very fast? Why haven’t we been subsidizing train transport to get people out of NO for thirty years? Cars take money, busses won’t be able to come back if counterflow has been established on the highways…the only solution that works for the poor and vulnerable is a train. Why were there no trains?
John Cole
I was 6-9 when Carter was President. I was kind to Star Wars and superman and baseball and soccer, which is what I was doing at the time.
John Cole
The absence of a coherent evacuation plan is question number one. Bush and FEMA probably have questions they should answer after this, and will, but NO ONE has more to answer for than than the state government of Louisiana and the city government of New Orleans, which have failed in ways that far surpass anything the relief effort could hope to fail.
Emma Zahn
Too many people seem to think a real catastophe should play out like those in the movies and on tv shows.
It’s not pleasant to realize that the people who are actually running things aren’t really that good at running things. And that’s true at all levels: local, state and federal.
There’s plenty of blame to go around beginning with the mayor of New Orleans who failed to get more people out using every multi-person vehicle available and mapping out where those who remained were.
…
Don Surber
People actually think this way? They are actually this obsessed with the president? It is like North Korea in reverse
Absurd. Well at least th’Internet keeps y’all off the roads and out of harm’s way
VJ
I agree with the questioning from cooper… Landreu herself said that she was angry. I was wondering the same… who she is mad at?
jg
They were designed for a fast moving cat 3. This was a predicted (for a few days) to be a slow moving cat 5. And yet the levee failing is a surprise? they had to fallback and reevaluate? I’m not saying the flooding isn’t hindering the rescue efforts I’m saying the rescue efforts shouldn’t be hindered by something forseen. They should have been prepared to rescue people from a flooded New Orleans. No way they have a plan for this city that doesn’t involve dealing with flooding. Its like Denver not budgeting for snow removal. Work it back and it points to Bush. The buck stops where?
jg
No whats unpleasant is finding out they aren’t competent for the job. Political appointees with no experience in emergency management.
Mike S
No water at the main evacuation site. Refusing support from other countries and people. 3 days to make a statement. 3 days to send in the Navy. Playing guitar instead of high tailing it back to DC. 3 day to a cabinet meeting.
A better question is why aren’t you mad.
jobiuspublius
ROFLMAO Ok, ok, kid. But, wait, were you kind to last year? And the year before? …
jobiuspublius
I can’t wait to hear why the city busses were just left to sink. Why weren’t private busses commandered?
Mike S
By the way, go look at Kevin Drum’s time line of the castration of FEMA. Then ask yourself why a Real Estake loan broker is the head of FEMA. I know a lot of loan brokers and the thing most of them are best at is finding the next bar.
jobiuspublius
What you government appologists fail to accept is that CUBA can handle hurricanes. CUBA CAN HANDLE HURRICANES. PISS POOR FUCKING BAT SHIT CASTRO CUBA CAN HANDLE HURRICANES. Ok, back to your regularly schedualed shopping.
Jim Caputo
This is something I just don’t get. There are people there not being helped. We have trained Canadians who are willing to help. The president says no. Someone tell me why it would be a bad thing to have a trained Canadian disaster team come to LA and help with the rescue.
Trent
I completely disagree. While the local and state authorities definitely made mistakes, only the federal government has the ability to do massive disaster recovery operations. Especially when we’re talking about a disaster that affects a large part of the state and region. Especially when the feds are the ones that took away the Guard and their equipment to fight overseas.
God, all this bending-over-backwards to find a blame-free angle. Why can’t people just say, yea, Bush fucked up.
Although i would call it living up to expectations.
rilkefan
Sorry, John, but the guy fired for protesting the cuts to FEMA disagrees with your source.
And anyway, with respect, you’re taking a dumb tack here – the problem was known, the profile of the next hurricane was not, and you’re arguing that taking no action is the right thing to do when no perfect action is available.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Brad DeLong writes today that a US hospital ship is leaving Baltimore tomorrow. Do you have a good explanation for this?
Bush didn’t create the hurricane, and maybe even if he had funded the flood control project it wouldn’t have helped. But Bush is still on the hook for (1) replacing professionals at the top of FEMA with political friends and (2) turning a long-term blind eye to environmental degradation in the interests of industry in general and oil in particualr. LA’s new Republican darling Bobby Jindal has figured out the connection between loss of wetlands and the extent of the damage.
Bush’s new plan: get global warming bad enough displaced LA families can resettle on the Alaskan North Slope.
Harry Atkinson
Let’s take a moment from the contemplation of these sobering issues for a little song. This one goes out to all you New Orleans residents currently dying of thirst in your attics, or hopelessly awaiting a helicopter from the roof of your house. Help is on the way. Some day.
George?
oddlots.digitalspace.net/ARX/downloads/nero2a.jpg
ppGaz
Dunno. If I had been elected mayor of the Big Easy, my first day on the job, I’d have said to the people: This city is not safe. A weather calamity that is almost certain to happen will fill this city with water and create a catastrophe.
And then I’d go to the state, and to Congress, and I’d raise a stink (in my inimitable fashion) until I got their attention and got the resources I needed to get a plan in place and the means to implement that plan, so that on last Saturday, I’d have bussed or trucked 50,000 people out of town to pre-arranged shelters in other locales, and I’d have avoided this calamity that you are seeing now on your tv.
To my thinking, accountability starts at City Hall and then goes directly to Baton Rouge … and only then, to Washington.
rilkefan
This DeLong post lists many reasons to be furious with the Bush admin.
My favorite bit.
Trent
I believe that help is turning the corner right now.
John Cole
The vast majority of the state and local missteps were prior to the disaster, and before the flooding.
No I am not. I in no way think it made any sense to cut the funding for the projects. It makes no sense whatsoever. Particularly when the current crop of spend and spend more Republicans in Congress have shown a complete willingness to spend out the ass on any range of issues.
I merely take issue with the assertion that this funding cuts had any impact on the situation as it has played out. Personally, I don’t know why they don’t have Cat 5 proof levees. I sure as hell wouldn’t live there as is.
Now how the hell would I have any answers to that question. Where was the ship prior to leaving. Was it under repair. Restock? I don’t know. It would seem to make a certain amount of sense to me that they would not pre-position ships prior to HURRICANE relief, for pretty clear reasons. But I don’t know. I might very well be wrong.
I really do not know why you all think I am defending anything that has happened. I am not. I am, however, dismissive of the immediate attempts to make this a political issue. We don’t know the facts. We won’t for a long while. There will be plenty of time for placing blame once we at least get to the bodies, let alone bury them.
Trent
Looks like that’s what they did…
Mike S
And when they said no, what would you have done then?
George Turner
Gee Trent,
I guess every city in America should raise a stink and say their city isn’t safe, while demanding that someone else pay to fix it, figure out how to fix it, and actually fix it.
I did love Brad DeLongs complaint that we weren’t using enough helicopters to fix the breach in the levee, though. How many of helicopters do you have to crash into the water to plug the hole, anyway?
Are these people for real?
Trent
As i am of 9/11 having been made political.
Yea. We’re still waiting on the facts from 9/11.
Mike S
I didn’t read his post but as I understand it there were a number of crane type helos that could have helped drop container cars into the breach. Is that what he was talking about?
Don
Well, when huge portions of the country profit from your situation – being a major port – doesn’t the country as a whole have some obligation to assist, George?
snaporaz
READ THIS AND TELL ME AGAIN THEY ARE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN/ARE SUPPOSED TO JOHN COLE
BLITZER: The disaster, what’s unfolding in New Orleans, elsewhere in the Gulf as well, the situation, especially, especially worrisome in downtown New Orleans. We have on the line now Phyllis Petrich. She’s stranded in one of the hotels in New Orleans. Phyllis, where exactly are you?
PHYLISS PETRICH, STRANDED IN NEW ORLEANS: I’m at the Ritz Carlton on Canal Street in the French Quarter.
BLITZER: How long have you been there?
PETRICH: We arrived here actually for holiday on Thursday evening and we were evacuated to the Grand Ballroom by the middle of the night Sunday. We have been on rations since then. They have evacuated some of the hotel. There are about 300 people left. The Ritz is trying to get buses in here. FEMA will not let them in. They got a group out last night. And of the three buses that got out, FEMA commandeered one of them. We have no idea where they’ve taken those people. We’re in dire straits here. There is no electricity. The sewage is backing up. As I said, the water supply is running low.
We do have a team here of infection diseases doctors that were here for a conference who have set up a small infirmary to care for the cases of dysentery and vomiting that have come up, as well as other people who have had some illnesses. But all of those medications are now being depleted, and I don’t know that anyone is aware that we’re here. I realize we’re not top priority on anyone’s list, but we are here and we are in dire straits, and we need someone to know that we’re here, to come in and help to get us out of here.
BLITZER: Do you have enough food and water right now, Phyllis?
PETRICH: Well I don’t believe we have very much food left at all. I know that we didn’t have any lunch today. We had just a little biscuit or a cookie for breakfast and all we’re each being given is a glass of water.
BLITZER: And it’s impossible for you simply to leave the hotel and walk out. Not only are there floodwaters there, but it’s dangerous, the violence, the looting, the snipers. It’s a very dangerous situation.
PETRICH: It is a very dangerous situation. Fortunately, the Ritz has been wonderful. Apparently they have a lot of off-duty policemen that they have access to, that are guarding the hotel with shotguns. They themselves are afraid to go outside, because policemen are being shot at. And it is very, very difficult situation here. And I just don’t know how we can impress upon people what is really going on here. I think people just don’t have a concept, and it’s being glossed over, it’s being handled so poorly, it just amazes us to hear what’s going on outside. That people just don’t understand just the seriousness of the situation.
BLITZER: Where are you from, Phyllis?
PETRICH: I’m from Maryland right now. I actually live in Wisconsin, but I’m a long-term job assignment in Maryland.
BLITZER: If your family if your friends are watching, what would you like to say to them? PETRICH: That I am alive and well at this moment. I don’t know what will happen in the future, but I am alive and safe for the time being, and I just want to get home to them.
BLITZER: Are you traveling by yourself or do you have children with you?
PETRICH: With my husband. We came here to celebrate our anniversary. And it’s one we will not forgot for many years to come.
BLITZER: Well, Phyllis, good luck to you. We’ll certainly pass on your concerns to authorities and try to make sure that people don’t forgot that these hotels, including the Ritz Carlton Hotel in the French Quarter, are endangered right now.
PETRICH: I know, and it would be a different situation if we had made the choice of our own volition to stay here. We could not get out. Once the storm started to hit the airlines shut down immediately. And none of us could get flights out. We would have left if we could have, but we could not and that’s why we’re in the situation that we’re in.
BLITZER: One final question, Phyllis, before I let you go. Are there any law enforcement authorities, National Guard, police, first responders, FEMA officials, anyone at the Ritz Carlton Hotel trying to help any of you.
PETRICH: Not that we have seen. No. Not at all.
BLITZER: They’re invisible right now.
PETRICH: They are invisible. We have no idea where they are. We hear bits and pieces who can get information in that the National Guard is around, but where? We have not seen them. We have not seen FEMA officials. We have seen no one.
BLITZER: Well, if it makes you feel any better, we’re told that they’re on the way. We don’t know how long it will take to get there. They’re deploying thousands of troops. But it clearly will take some time for them to get to the scene where you are. Phyllis, we’ll talk with you. And good luck to you, your husband and all your friends. I’m sure you’ve become friendly with a lot of these people at the Ritz Carlton Hotel.
PETRICH: … absolutely wonderful people. There is a group of British nationals that have gotten to BBC. And we’re hoping that with us, trying to get to as much people as we can, they will understand just how dangerous and, you know, difficult the situation is for everyone here.
BLITZER: All right. Thank you very much, Phyllis. Good luck. We’ll check back with you. Phyllis Petrich, like so many others, about 300 people, she said, stranded now at the Ritz Carlton Hotel, and no help in sight, at least not now, and they’re running short of food and water.
capelza
Yes, George…if you are complaining about gas prices, stop. Think about how a regional disaster can have an immediate effect on all of us.
Anderson
John Cole is right about this: there is plenty of blame at all levels of government.
That said, FEMA identified this as a major threat in 2001, and 4 years later, *had no goddam plan in place.*
It surprises some, but here in the South, I don’t have a lot of faith in public officials at state & local levels. There are some honorable exceptions, but not many.
These poor people should not be going all day without food and water, with their babies hungry and thirsty, with their old people dying before their eyes. The feds have the massive resources to intervene immediately with the basics, if they care to plan and budget for it. They didn’t.
I am already seeing 6 months from now when all this is forgotten and America vaguely recalls that those noisy blacks in N.O. should’ve gotten out before the flooding. God help this country.
Ancient Purple
Fine. Now tell me why those helicopters are not loaded up with relief supplies and dropping them at the Superdome or the NOLA Convention Center.
Jcricket
Think about it this way. Each “additional” category you need to protect for has an exponential rise in cost, length of time to implement and land needed for levees, etc. The Army Corp designed the levees based on the money they had, the amount of land they were able to purchase (emininent domain, etc.) and the public’s willingness to accept a certain set of parameters. This is per the engineer I heard speaking last night on the news.
Moreoever, LA (and definitely NOLA) is simply too poor to pay for this kind of thing themselves (either the initial flood protection or the disaster recovery effort afterwards). LA simply doesn’t have the tax base, even if they were to raise taxes on the middle and upper classes. They are reliant on federal aid for these type of massive programs.
The apparent inability to adequately respond to this disaster’s aftermath is, IMHO, a direct result of the Republicans long-standing de-funding of all kinds of federal programs. I’m not saying bigger levees would have solved it. I’m saying that Republicans have made defunding the government a top priority (except for enriching military sub-contractors), which leaves us vulnerable in times when we need the type of services only the federal government can provide.
So, no, it’s not “Bush’s fault”. He’s just the last person in a long line of Republicans who have decreased our ability to use the federal government to help its citizens who need the help the most.
Trent
I agree. If anything, i think the levee defunding is an irrelevant point compared to Bush’s gutting and crony-ifying of FEMA.
I’m sure we’ll discover other catastrophic effects of Bush’s policies down the road, in other realms of American life.
rilkefan
“I merely take issue with the assertion that this funding cuts had any impact on the situation as it has played out.”
0) Sorry for misunderstanding you.
1) Who’s claiming that? I think all the people I read are making the weaker claim you agree with.
2) I’m a physicist, not an engineer, but in my experience failure calculations are hard, and people (given the chance) build things well beyond specs. I wouldn’t claim that the levee would have withstood a direct hit from a 5, but maybe it would have held against, or less catastrophically yielded to, this particular storm. The pumping stations might have worked longer in the latter case and bought some time; the breach might have been amenable to sandbagging.
3) But 2) doesn’t address the real argument here, which is what did we do with the resources available.
(My “favorite bit” link from above, direct to the source this time. Blogging badly out of pain and outrage.)
Jcricket
Yes George, we are for real. They are using helicopters to drop sand bags on the breach to fix it. Brad is saying, “If that will fix it, then why aren’t they flying helicopters non-stop out there with sandbags”. Is that so hard to fathom?
It should not take 5 days after a disaster that we new would be this bad or worse more than a week ago to mobilize nearly all the available federal resources from surrounding areas. National Guard troops are just now arriving. There is a shortage of evacuation vehicles, helicopters, police boats, etc.
This is why the federal government exists. This is what it should be good at doing. This is what Republicans want to pretend will never happen, so we can not worry about funding “safety nets”.
Joe Albanese
Its not the government that we should be pointing a finger at its the victims:
.
scs
That was an excellent suggestion by demimondian. Trains would have been awesome. A train line from the Superdome just going far enough North to get out of the flood zone, I guess past the lake. Can’t be more than 10 miles I’m thinking. Would that really have been that expensive to contruct? At the end point, they could have connected with an Amtrak train line, specially made if there wasn’t one, and then all transported to to different points. Wait, don’t they already have an Amtrak train station downtown? Why wasn’t that used?
Everyone’s talking about Bush’s cuts. Were there actual plans to build up the levees for a Cat 5 in the next years? After all, no one’s done it for a hundred years. If not, the cuts made no difference.
Trent
This is from a diary from Daily Kos. (Sorry John) I certainly hope it’s accurate, which is why i’m making this disclaimer. But if it IS accurate, it’s really pathetic.
The author cites having spoken to officers at the base:
So maybe we do have the helicopters around…
Jcricket
Oh, John?
(He was head from 2001-2002, during Bush’s tenure – no blaming Clinton for this one).
NOLA is not just subject to flooding from within its own borders. Some significant percentage of stream and water runoff from the entire east coast flows down through Louisiana (eventually). So it’s complete BS to assert (as some others have) that NOLA should just “pay for itself” – but totally indicative of the complete blinders some people have to the reasons why America needs a strong, fully-funded federal government.
John Cole
Which, in and of itself, raises another question. Why the fuck didn’t the city, the state, ACE, who the fuck ever, after insisting that a levee failure was a possibility, have some sort of plan to FIX the levee once it fails.
Giant Sandbags is all we could come up with? I noted this yesterday, and it sounded like an Onion headline:
“Huge sandbags planned for levee leaks”
Now I appreciate a low tech solution, and I believe in the principle of parsimony, but someone is going to have to work real hard to convince me that ‘big sandbags’ is all we could come up with.
scs
Thats so bizarre. Just as I was thinking about trains, I just heard Michael Chernoff on TV say he was going to bring in trains to NOLA.
John Cole
I saw that- and he followed it up by saying he is not making ‘judgements,’ he is trying to help. From their stanpoint, as they have no way of knowing why individuals did or did not leave, and the evacuation order was mandatory, they did ‘choose’ to stay.
I don;t find that offensive at all, as contrary to what the tinfoilers will have you believe, our spying on civilians is not good enough to know why those people ‘chose’ to stay.
I do, however, get pissed off at people who claim they are stupid, or say things like Jonah said.
Overall, they would be better off saying things like ‘who for whatever reason did not leave,’ etc. But I don’t think that was as you are attempting to portray it. I saw that interview.
ppGaz
Well, I just saw a hospital in NO where approximately 1000 patients and caregivers are essentially trapped on on tiny island, running out of food and water, generators running out of fuel, patients dying for lack of means to help them.
There was no mechanism or time available for these people to get out. Now, there is apparently no help for them.
I dunno, I can’t take much more of this on my tv, and then the blogosphere where any attempt to criticize anything is met with smackdowns.
I am changing sides here. At what point is it okay to start demanding some accountability and ACTION?
Because whoever is in charge of this giant clusterfuck needs to be fired, right now.
Anderson
The former head of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the agency that handles the infrastructure of the nation’s waterways, said the damage in New Orleans probably would have been much less extensive had flood-control efforts been fully funded over the years.
Cautionary note: Mike Parker, the “former head,” may be 100% right. He is also a major jerk who narrowly managed the amazing feat of losing Mississippi’s gubernatorial race to a Democrat, in part by treating his supporters like dirt and by running on the veiled racist slogan “One of us / For all of us.”
So finding out some more about what he allegedly was fighting for would be in order before assuming he’s a victim. Of course, being right & being an asshole have a venerable tradition of occurring together.
Joe Albanese
To show how bipartisan I am in pointing assine comments I just heard Jesse Jackson equate the scum that are shooting and looting in NO with the “looting” of the $6.00 gas prices in Atlanta. Jesus I just want to hit somebody.4
George Turner
Ancient Purple,
>>>>How many of helicopters do you have to crash into the water to plug the hole, anyway?
If you read the piece, Brad DeLong was complaining that the helicopters had been diverted from the important levee whatnot to go around rescuing people. *gasp*
To answer your question, loading helicopters with relief supplies to drop them at the Superdome would be rather stupid, considering that trucks already drive all the way there. But then they could unload the relief supplies at the Superdome, load them on the helicopters, and then rain the supplies down on the people standing around outside – probably the same ones who’d just loaded the supplies on the helicopters in the first place.
In a far ranging flood, the helicopter is one of the most useful pieces of rescue equipment imaginable. To use it as nothing more than a Mr. Peanut delivery truck, where actual Mr. Peanut trucks are already driving, is absurd.
Mike S
I love the way people just ignore the destruction of FEMA. See, we used to have this agency that was designed for “Federal Emergency Management” and there were a lot of good things done in the 90’s to make it work better. The thing was, President Bush and his crew just didn’t like the way it worked. So what did they do?
Here’s Kevin Drums run down. Follow this link for the cites.
scs
I take back the train idea. Looking at a map, there is nothing around NO, and the Lake and, I guess, the flood plain goes on for miles. I remember that when we drove there. I’m not sure which way we came, but there were basically just grassy swamps for miles around. The closest real town away from the beach is Baton Rouge, some 70 miles away. That is too far to shuttle 50,000, cause trains wouldn’t be able to make many return trips in time to pick up everyone, and I don’t think you can just have that many empty trains just sitting around waiting. Or maybe they could have built a Superdome-like shelter on the other side of the Missippi and had shuttle trains go there, but that would have been very expensive.
No, I think the Superdome idea was actually the most workable idea. What they should have done was stored more fuel for the generators, more food, and engineered a better sanitation system that could last 50,000 at least a week. That part shouldn’t have been that much harder to do.
JC
If reporters have made it to two of the biggest areas, the convention center and the Superdome, then why the hell are police/NG/relief workers etc having such a problem getting to these locations??
Check out this yahoo story – (someone has probably already posted, but still…)
John, you want to hide behind “it’s a big place, lots of damage” yada-yada – well, in THIS case – the Superdome and the convention center – that doesn’t hold water.
Especially as the deeply experienced FEMA head Mike Brown said on Paula Zahn just now that “the national Guard didn’t know about the convention center.”
Jesus.
I’ve known about the convention center for a couple of days – it was on CNN – what the hell??
Irregardless of the incompetency and mendacity of the Bush administration officials, everyone must contribute straight MONEY – I have to the American Red Cross, please do so as well.
George Turner
Mike S,
FEMA didn’t even exist until 1979. I guess prior to that everyone just wandered around like a bunch of dazed Democrats, looting beer and shooting at the cops. Unfortunately, sometimes they still do, with or without FEMA.
Mike S
That whole comment was assinine. Hal Turner ignores the fact that the trucks aren’t there, nor is food and water.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt earlier because I thought he was mistaken. Now I see that he is just another dishonest member of the New Republican Party. No different than Sean Hannity and his claim that the Westborough Baptist Church is a “leftist orginization” upset because of some social problems.
There’s no point in discussing things with these people because they are just pathetic liars.
Joe Albanese
I know that some think that there is no reason to point fingers at the response of the federal government until “we know all the facts”. Well, here are just some “facts” that may be relevant:
.
Policy decisions have CONSEQUENCES. If we are not supposed to examine and debate the decisions our leaders make, especially at times like this, then I dont’ know when we ever will.
jobiuspublius
Irrelevant. Our government has failed us for years. It is failing us disasterously now. Katrina ’06 is our chance to get what we want out of our government. It is our chance to make our government work for We The People as opposed to Them The Lobbyists. The failures are simply too many and too grievous. You guys are spliting hairs while people die and Dear Leader and company cover their asses. I wonder how Judge Roberts would rule.
Mike S
What’s your point Georgie? Or is that another of your dumb assed comments?
scs
Mike S, I read that funding to the Army Corp of Engineers was cut in 2004 and 2005. Does anyone know if there plans to build a Cat 5 levee in those years? To repeat, cutting funding is not that relevant if there were no plans to actually build a Cat 5 wall.
jobiuspublius
America didn’t exist until 1776 …….
JC
“Deeply experienced” in the above post is supposed to be sarcastic, of course.
One other dishonesty – ably covered at Red State – the president pretends that no one thought the levee would be breached.
Playing political spin in the midst of a crisis like this isn’t helping matters.
rilkefan
It wasn’t a Cat 5 storm, and engineers overengineer.
scs
Well Job, it is somewhat relevant if we want to blame everything on Bush.
jobiuspublius
So, Dear Leader and company are even more useless than I suspected.
scs
Is it up to Bush to recommend a cat 5 flood wall? I didn’t know he was enginner-in-chief too.
George Turner
Well excuse me for not being stupid, but if they tried to use Blackhawks to deliver water from someplace like Houston all the way to the refugees, the Blackhawk could only haul 500 gallons of water as internal payload and would have to fly four hours round trip at a cost of about $4800 per trip. Using forty Blackhawk sorties you could bring in enough water for the 20,000 people at the Superdome (now offering bus service to Houston), but then you wouldn’t have them out looking for people stuck on rooftops or clinging to debris, much less rescuing said people.
The same job would take only three or four semi trucks and leave the helicopters free for lifesaving.
Mike S
It was a cat 4 hurricane that did not hit the city. The damage was caused by too much water hitting the levee.
Mike S
Georgie strikes again. Appearently there are now only black hawks and no other copters.
Georgie isn’t like Hannity, he is him.
George Turner
But scs,
Even though they’ve known they needed a CAT-5 wall since the 1930’s, it’s up to Bush to actually build said wall, preferably by 1935 or so.
Ben
There is plenty of blame to go around, mostly among politicians. Since ’92, this country has focused its political energy on abortion, partial birth abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage (or general hatred of fags), Clinton getting is cock sucked by Monica and steroids in baseball. The net effect of this is that, as a nation, we are ill prepared for disasters… either from mother nature or the Islamists (or Monica). Our politicians are only interested in getting re-elected and no longer spend time worrying about the boring, non-sexy stuff that they get paid to worry about… like levees that protect a port that receives 90% of the oil coming into this country.
scs
Okay, it was a high Cat 4, barely missing a 5. The reason there was too much water hitting the levee was because of the hurricane. What’s your point?
Ken
John:
First and foremost, I know you are no “Bush apologist”. For my part, I didn’t care much for Kerry. I met the guy way back in 1972, and I had the disconcerting experience of agreeing with most of what he said but feeling personally repelled. Guess he never solved that proplem. But I voted for him because Bush’s first term was a disaster for the United States. I admit, I have never cared for Bush, who looked like an incompetent to me in 1999-2000, and whose consistently dismal performance has confirmed my worst expectations.
That said. Accusing people of accusing Bush of “causing” a Category 4-5 hurricane through his misguided environmental/energy policies is really an extravagent exerise in question begging. The real issue is the pathetic, dismal lethargic performance of the United States government. Katrina was a long time coming. There was a lot of warning that it coud hit New Orleans. Plus there were planning exercises that reveal that the government knew that New Orleans was very much at risk in a big storm. (Shades of Bin Laden determined to strike in US).
Post storm the federal non-performance is striking. I saw the mealy mouthed FEMA guy, Brown, on NBC tonight issuing the kind of empty reassurance at which this gang excels. Sorry folks. Bush is President. He wanted the job so bad he forced his way into the White House even though he lost the election. He is responsible for FEMA’s non-perfromance. He is responsible for the non-presence of sufficient National Guard soldiers and US Army personnel. Having sat on his well toned posterior while New Orleans was sinking into “Mad Max”like disarray, he guaranteed that restoring order in the city (a necessary prerequisite to beginning to drain the water) he has guaranteed that the job will be much bloodier and uglier than it had to me.Welcome to the Big Easy, now becoming Baghdad on the Mississippi.
Nice work once again Mr. President! Once again he rewrites the old joke: He’s from the government and he’s not here to help.
jobiuspublius
If he were curious it would be, but, he’s not so we just let it slide.
Jim Caputo
Diane Sawyer made an interesting comparison during the Bush interview when she placed the “on Air Force One showing concern” pictures from 9/11 and Katrina side by side and remarking on the similarity of the two.
Does anyone know who took the photo this time? Was it a pool reporter on the plane or was it a White House photographer. Were there press people on Air Force One for the flyover?
George Turner
While Bush was out vacationing overe the previous five years, New Orleans was busy on construction.
A month before Katrina they decided to spend $280 million on an expansion to lure in ‘history pilgrims’, on top of $100 million for a luxury golf project.
Sounds like throwing money at their levees wasn’t in the ol’ Tarot cards down there.
George Turner
Gee Ken,
Sounds like New Orleans is a quagmire.
GET OUR TROOPS OUT NOW!!!
Mike S
Gee, I don’t know. Maybe that the levies may have heald if they had been reinforced? Or that the damage may have been less?
Peter T.
The full area of devastation might be quite large, but I’d say that not all the area is equally populated. The inability to provide food, water or security to the most densely populated area 72 hours after the catastrophe is inexcusable. The command and control structure in New Orleans broke down and has yet to be restored. Millions upon millions have been spent on homeland security, and we can’t supply a working radio system for first responders? Maybe Sri Lanka and Bangladesh could send over some people to give us a hand?
Harley
God how moronic. Airy snark about snowfall is a dim and thin replacement for actual thought re what’s happened here, and what might have been done to better prepare for it. There are legitimate questions to be asked — not now, btw — about priorities and preparation. Sticking your head in the sand, or your ass, is of little value in what will be, one hopes, an important conversation.
Accountability is a dirty word
It seems this is one of the few things that government should do and do well. The government has failed this country on its borders, it failed on 9/11, and now it has failed again. It is a bipartisan failure.
Given what the federal government will spend on this disaster, would overenginneering it to save 10’s of billions had made sense? Of course. Was the storm surge so great water just flowed over the entire levee? No. There was a breach at a specific point which widened to 300 yards of breach.
One would think FEMA, ranking a NO hurricane bowl fill up a top 3 disaster for the country, would have contingency upon contingency planned out, with resources in place given the advanced notice that was had. I hope to god we never have a tsunami here where there is little to no notice of what’s coming.
Are people responsible who didn’t flee under mandatory evacuation? Sure. Did everyone who didn’t leave have the means? Of course not. How there can be no food and water drops 78 hours after the storm has passed I can’t figure out.
scs
Once again, everyone is calling for blame but not thinking of any solutions that may have been possible. Were there really any solutions to this problem? How DO you get 50-100 thousand people out of a city in a half day? No matter how much you plan for that, you probably can’t do it practically, (short of extravagant spending, such as keeping a boatload of empty trains just sitting around waiting for the task.) Obviously building up the levee to a Cat 5 level was also cost prohibitive, or they would have done it already.
The only things they could have done better was engineer better plumbing in the Superdome, perhaps a pump to use flood water for toilets, and reinforce the existing levees.
Anderson
Baghdad on the Mississippi
You know, the Dems could take the White House with lines like that. Excellent, sir.
jobiuspublius
So, L.A. pols can join Dear Leader in hell. It doesn’t seem to me that you realize just how disfunctional our government is.
Scott H
My Dad closed out his military career in command of the logistics operations for a USAF tactical wing whose job it was to push mobile military bases, essentially self-contained small cities, out of the backs of flying C-130 transport aircraft. That was in 1973.
That the sky above the Gulf Coast wasn’t filled with parachute pallets of bottled water and MREs the hour after Katrina cleared boggles my mind.
The US Government can’t even adequately organize the evacuation of a one-third filled sports arena – something even Marshall University could manage. No one is there to hold a single LZ outside of Charity Hospital, or get in a single engineer to restore their central generator. Billions were poured into DHS, and the President now asks for money to be given to private charities to finance the rescue operations. Women are crying for milk for their babies, and they’re getting troops with guns with orders to shoot.
I notice the people saying it is too early to point fingers; not one is on the wrist side of the hand. Anybody who is blaming Bush for Katrina is a fool, but Bush and the rest of the administration can well be held accountable for the incompetent response to this disaster which has been made worse by their lack of action. And Secretary of State Rice can very well be damned for catching a Broadway show and going shoe shopping while other countries are clamoring to send aid to the region.
Anderson Cooper, getting his reality check far from the Manhattan Vanderbilt penthouses to which he is accustomed, is genuinely expressing a fury that is just getting wound up in this country. The American public will “be mad at” or “blame” anybody they choose.
Tonight Congress will with no objection vote $10bn in short-term band-aid funds. The overall price tag for preventing the disaster and reversing the damage of 70 years of delta erosion that endangered the region: $14bn.
Trent
This is a red herring. The issue isn’t evacuting them in time. It’s getting food and supplies to them in time.
A competent president could get 20 semis loaded up with supplies from Houston to NO in 10 hours. He’s the President! He just needs to say “Do it”.
Even if there are issues with fallen bridges and blocked roads, you can still get the supplies close and then you airlift the stuff in.
Clinton would have had the semis staged and loaded up before the hurricane was even over.
scs
I think they had food from what I heard, at least until about now. The problem was that the power generators and the plumbing failed in the stadium. Not sure why that happened and why they couldn’t fix that. Food is beginning to run low in certain places now though. I don’t know if they have trucks on the way, but if not they should. Then again, I think the governments goal is to get people out of there- not feed them there. But to do that- they need a place to take them. Anyway, it’s all so complicated.
Mike S
scs, are you for real? You “think” they have had food? Food “is beginning to run low in places?”
Where do you get your news?
It’s time to look for another source.
scs
Yes I believe they have had food in the stadium. They had their MRE’s. Where are you getting your news? That is not the complaint I heard about at the stadium. Now in other parts of the city, it all depends on what situation you are in.
scs
And as for other places, most people did stock up on food at their home or business before the storm. And then, did you see all the looting that went on? That kept a lot of people fed for another few days, until that all ran out. Now there is starting to be more widespread hunger. I stand by my statement. Of course, for people stranded on a rooftop or a highway all these days, none of that applies of course.
DJAnyReason
John –
It is a 20-hour drive from Pittsburgh to New Orleans – its not close, but two people, taking shifts, could do it in a day. The Pittsburgh bus system is running uninterrupted while people are dying in the convention center and superdome waiting for busses to come evacuate them. I’m sure Pittsburgh isn’t the closest city with a major bus system that could have shouldered some of the load to move people out of New Orleans, but I haven’t heard of any city donating such resources.
Who is she mad at? I couldn’t say. But I’m furious with my federal government, and FEMA, for letting these people die while this nation has the resources to move them to safety.
Stop being such a goddamn apologist. I’m not being partisan – the government fucked this up, and I don’t care what party those responsible belong to. Katrina couldn’t have been avoided, but so much of the devistation could have been. We had 36 hours warning for the worst-possible-case disaster, one we’re learning that there have been years of warnings about, got hit by a glancing blow, and we’re still looking at tens of thousands of deaths, many of them due to lack of supply and evacuation, complete lawlessness in the city, and just a complete clusterfuck.
If you think that the majority of this couldn’t have been avoided, with the numerous amounts of warnings of the urgent need to upgrade New Orleans’ levee systems, the 36 hours of forewarning that a cat-5 was headed straight to the worst possible spot on our coastline, and just general principles of disaster preparedness, then you’re right – you’re completely fucking out of touch.
Craig
John, you’re usually a beacon of reason but you’re makin’ me cringe here.
And then…you assign blame!
This is a debacle. No question, there’ll be much blame to go around.
But right now, the only CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is to pressure the federal government. This is a national disaster of epic proportions way out of realm of what state and local governments can do.
FEMA and the President were caught with their pants down and have been slow to respond. THAT is NOW the problem. The fact is, regardless of whose fault this was initially, the only arm of the government that can do anything meaningful at this point in time is the Feds. And they aren’t doing it. And so us “political types” scream.
George Turner
Mike S,
Have you even watched the news? Yes, they had food and water at the Superdome. The Astrodome is already full up with the people from the Superdome, and no giant pallets of water had to be dropped from C-130s onto the top of a CITY that’s flooded.
Mike S
Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of the convention center.
Oh Georgie, you so funny. I sure do hope more people see your idiocy so the can see what the new Republicans are all about.
Mary N.
I heard this afternoon that one of the poorest countries is giving us $75,000 for the Katarina fund.It is so sad that us being the richest country excepting that money.
B. Ross
1. Principally, FEMA’s fault.
2. Bush’s fault for appointing an incompetent FEMA head.
3. Bush’s fault for not ordering in the military ASAP. See this, from a guy who was ready with hundred of thousands of MRE’s.
“K: NorthCom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready for the storm when it hit Florida because, as you remember, it crossed the bottom part of Florida, and then we were plaining, you know, once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast. So what we did was we activated what we call defense coordinating officers to work with the state to say okay, what do you think you’ll need, and we set up staging bases that could be started. We had the USS Baton sailing almost behind the hurricane so that after the hurricane made landfall it’s search and rescue helicopters would be available almost immediately. So we had things ready. The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can’t just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission.”
Normally Bubble Boy has Cheney to tell him what to do. Oops. Cheney’s on vacation, so lots of Americans die of dehydration.