Well, post Hurricane, we see the wingnut battle lines have been drawn. The tragedy in New Orleans, depending on your political ‘beliefs,’ can alternately be blamed on Bush and the War in Iraq or the sodomites and the sinners.
On a side note, homosexuals everywhere celebrate for not being singled out for a fucking change.
Bob in Champaign
John, don’t you see anything wrong with equating those two opinions?
John Cole
I am sure you will tell me it is completely reasonable for someone, without any idea how the levees actually collapsed, without any idea if the levees could ever in a million years hold at their current design, to blame the collapse from a Hurricane of unprecedented strength on miniscule funding cuts enacted by Congress for projects that would not be completed for three years on Bush and the War and Iraq.
Go ahead. I am all ears.
Anderson
Well, we know that the Corps has been denied hundreds of thousands of dollars they requested for N.O.’s protection, due to the tight budgets.
But even I, Bush basher extraordinaire, suspect that the problem is simply that we’re a democracy, and that telling people “we can’t cut your taxes because we have to spend millions on some disaster that will probably happen some time or other” is not a political winner.
The miserable shortcomings of our disaster response, OTOH, I am happy to lay at the feet of our misnamed “Department of Homeland Security.”
You would think the U.S.A. could (1) land the 82d Airborne anywhere in the world in 72 hours and (2) have adequate disaster relief on the spot anywhere in the U.S. in 48-72 hours. Nope.
CaseyL
The question asked in a previous thread bears repeating: What the hell has Homeland Security been doing for 4 years?
demimondian
Working to ensure George Bush’s reelection by raising the threat level whenever it served to distract the public from some foreign blunder or economic catastrophe, of course.
Somehow, they managed to sleep through the “and prepare for natural disasters” part of the course, I guess.
KC
I think Anderson makes a great point. It’s one I hadn’t really considered, except maybe in the back of my mind. You promise folks tax cuts, you’ve got to give them tax cuts. The money’s got to come from somewhere; folks sacrifice flood control for some extra bucks in their pockets. Maybe this disaster will give everybody a little more time to rethink some of these sorts of political decisions.
John Cole
Then again, there is that whole thing with the city being submerged, police trying to stave off looting, rescue crews concentrating on pulling people off of rooftops, significant numbers of people trying to stop the um, you know- FLOODING, all the roads being flooded or ruined, and debris everywhere.
Other than that, it should be no problem just handing out ‘adequate disaster relief.’ Although, keeping with the 82nd idea, I suppose we could just airdrop big crates of blankets and water on people. After all- they would be easy targets- they are waving shirts and banners trying to get RESCUED.
You know, I thought it was the academics who were supposed to be the pointyheads who were out of touch. While there will be plenty of time later to assess blame and work on making a better strategy for future disasters, it would be precious if just one person would recognize that just because we are a powerful nation, we don’t get a magic wand to immediately fix shit just because we are the ‘only remaining superpower.’
I mean, how many fucking people died in France because of a HEAT WAVE? This was a Category 4-5 hurricane. While I am sure there have been lots of mistakes, as there always are in disasters, excuse me if I give the relief efforts a couple of days before calling them a failure.
Big E
repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html
John:
yeah…it is the homosexuals fault for Katrina. I knew the good christians would find another reason for god to kill the innocent.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
PHILADELPHIA – Just days before “Southern Decadence”, an annual homosexual celebration attracting tens of thousands of people to the French Quarters section of New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina destroys the city.
“Southern Decadence” has a history of filling the French Quarters section of the city with drunken homosexuals engaging in sex acts in the public streets and bars. Last year, a local pastor sent video footage of sex acts being performed in front of police to the mayor, city council, and the media. City officials simply ignored the footage and continued to welcome and praise the weeklong celebration as being an “exciting event”. However, Hurricane Katrina has put an end to the annual celebration of sin.
On the official “Southern Decadence” website (www.SouthernDecadence.com), it states that the annual event brought in “125,000 revelers” to New Orleans last year, increasing by thousands each year, and up from “over 50,000 revelers” in 1997. This year’s 34th annual “Southern Decadence” was set for Wednesday, August 31, 2005 through Monday, September 5, 2005, but due to massive flooding and the damage left by the hurricane, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco has ordered everyone to evacuate the city.
The past three mayors of New Orleans, including Sidney Barthelomew, Marc H. Morial, and C. Ray Nagin, issued official proclamations welcoming visitors to “Southern Decadence”. Additionally, New Orleans City Council made other proclamations recognizing the annual homosexual celebration.
“Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city,” stated Repent America director Michael Marcavage. “From ‘Girls Gone Wild’ to ‘Southern Decadence,’ New Orleans was a city that had its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin. From the devastation may a city full of righteousness emerge,” he continued.
New Orleans is also known for its Mardi Gras parties where thousands of drunken men revel in the streets to exchange plastic jewelry for drunken women to expose their breasts. This annual event sparked the creation of the “Girls Gone Wild” video series.
“We must help and pray for those ravaged by this disaster, but let us not forget that the citizens of New Orleans tolerated and welcomed the wickedness in their city for so long,” Marcavage said. “May this act of God cause us all to think about what we tolerate in our city limits, and bring us trembling before the throne of Almighty God,” Marcavage concluded.
“[God] sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matthew 5:45)
KC
Has there been a call for volunteer help? For example, does anyone know if a call has been put out for people with boats, if they are still operable, to help with the rescue missions?
JC
While it is clear that THIS particular horrible event would not have been stopped by the funding restored, it also reflects very poorly on the administration, don’t you think?
The dismantling of FEMA.
The shifting of funds from the Army Corp of Engineers, who are on a project to shore up the levees?
The lack of planning for the crisis response (sound familiar?)
Now, this would have happened anyway, but this doesn’t mean the rank carelessness displayed by the administration gets a pass, right?
Wouldn’t you agree with that?
Bob in Champaign
Alright, if that’s the position you’re upset with, I don’t have a problem. I agree with you that actually assigning blame to the President, today, for the flooding in New Orleans is not reasonable.
On the other hand, I think if someone is saying “Here’s what was said in 2004 on the ground in New Orleans, and here’s what the funding numbers look like – we should look into this more,” and suggesting that the administration may have some explaining to do, that’s perfectly reasonable.
That said, maybe I’m just showing my bias, but I find the first position less awful than the second. There’s at least a logical connection there. I think the first position is problematic, but it’s still a far cry from “God smote New Orleans for its wickedness.” One blames the victim for something distasteful. The other (perhaps unfairly) blames a person who at least might have done something different that could have averted this.
So, I guess that’s where I stand. I don’t think it’s “completely reasonable” to say, at this point, that the funding cuts, or by extension the President or the war in Iraq caused the flood in New Orleans. I think it’s still better than “this is God’s will for the sinful city of New Orleans.”
George Turner
Anderson said,
.
Oooo… Hundreds of thousands of dollars would pay for a sidewalk, not major flood control upgrades. For that you need a hundred million here and there.
George Turner
Bob,
The hurricane wasn’t G-d’s doing. It was collateral damage from a hit called down by a voodoo priestess. Idiot tourists show up and say, “I’ll pay you money to smite my ex-husband,” yet the current system of certification and training is turning out voodoo priestesses with little or no sense of proportion or control.
Bob in Champaign
George,
I think we can all agree that Bush’s cuts for funding to voodoo education programs is to blame. So see, the Preznit did cause the hurricane! q.e.d.
More seriously, the Chicago Tribune has an article about this. The article makes it sound like pinning this on Bush is unfair. At the same time, it also makes it sound like his administration’s budgets might not have been particularly responsible. I still think pinning it on Bush isn’t as bad as “it was the fags.”
KC
Damn those voodoo priestesses!
Boronx
Firstly, and while the hurricane was ongoing, TalkLeft (along with the Swing State Project), attempted to blame Bush for having the National Guard deployed in Iraq during war time—
That’s a cheap shot. You can claim that NG deployment didn’t adversly affect response to Katrina, or you can claim that it did, but their job in Iraq is more important, but there’s no denying Bush’s blame for it.
20/20 hindsight doesn’t wash either, since it’s an issue that was brought up when the Guard was starting to deploy over there.
erez
Funny. If it is the sodomites and sinners who are at fault for Katrina, then why was the French Quarter spared?
Mike S
I guess you could call it miniscule.
$300,000,000,000 spent in Iraq. In 2004 they couldn’t come up with an extra twenty five million for New Orleans. And that was after cuts in the preceding 3 years. Add a few jobs given to people who don’t know how to do them and you begin to see where things began to go wrong.
I’m a little worried about what mission will be accomplished next.
StupidityRules
One thing that this has made even more clear is that Bush can’t handle a crisis. Anyone remember the American spyplane that was forced to land i China (it was pre 9/11)?
Then came 9/11 and Bush couldn’t get up from his chair and when he did he hid for hours.
And then came this, what seems to be the greatest natural catastrophy ever to strike the US and Bush once again shows his weak leadership during a crisis.
This isn’t blaming him for anything, just pointing out that he seems to be unable to handle it.
He should, and even more we, be thankful that we haven’t had another large terrorist attack after 9/11.
KC
Jesus StupidityRules, I think Bush has been off-kilter on this crisis, I wish he would have done more to get FEMA and other organizitions ready for this catastrophe. However, the American people reelected him in part due to his crisis management of 911. You may not have liked what he did on that day, I don’t, but a lot of people, including me, liked what he did over the next month. I think you’re going overboard with your criticisms on this one.
StupidityRules
KC, I stand by my view. When a major crisis happens Bush turns into a deer caught in the headlights. As the president of the United States you’re not allowed the luxury to take a time out when something major happens. Also people being unable to cope during pressure might when forced to make a decision overreact.
I believe that if George W Bush had been president during the Cuban Missile Crisis, the outcome had been catastrophic.
Mike S
Night Ridder
Katherine
No. I’m sorry. I don’t know how to run a government response to a catastrophe, but even I can tell that this is not adequate. I don’t know if there was something to do to make the levees hold–though again, you cannot know it was impossible and lose credibility with me every time you claim to. But just from watching TV, it became pretty clear that the evacuation plan was not adequate, and the response has not been adequate, on either the state, federal or local levels.
This wasn’t something out of the clear blue sky. People knew NOLA was vulnerable to a hurricane, they knew a hurricane was coming–the storm itself was supposed to be WORSE than it was.
And if you don’t believe me read this Knight Ridder article. They are quoting credible people here.
There are a few idiots saying that everything would’ve been hunky dory if Bush had done things differently. There are plenty of serious people saying that things would not have been quite this bad if the feds had done things differently, including, apparently, a lot of respected people who are experienced at managing disasters. To treat them as equivalent to “God’s getting the abortionists and gays” is really just ridiculous.
Katherine
oops. cross post.
AlanDownunder
By handing out equal scorn to those blaming Bush and those blaming the Sodomites, one confirms a peculiarly US meaning of “centrist”, “balanced”, “moderate” etc which leads to a peculiarly US meaning of “liberal”, “Dem” etc – i.e. no less nutty than the fruitcakes. How corrosive of sane political discourse is that?
vinc
It seems to me that whether or not you can ultimately trace the blame for the levee break to some particular funding cut is irrelevant to assigning responsibility here.
The Iraq war indisputably led to cuts in funding for hurricane readiness. No one argues with this.
It’s also quite clear that cutting a few million dollars of hurricane funding was a very, very poor choice. But the badness of that choice doesn’t have anything to do with the fact that a hurricane happened to hit this year. The administration couldn’t have known that a hurricane was going to hit in 2005 as opposed to 2015. That was just chance. But the administration knew the Big One would come sometime. It was willing to risk the city in order to save a few million bucks. That is what matters here.
So sure, maybe the engineers will go in and their analysis will show that the levees failed in a way that was entirely preventable given just a little bit of extra work last year. Or maybe they’ll show that none of the projects that were cut would have made any difference. Regardless of the answer, it won’t change the fact that cutting funding for profoundly vulnerable areas is a stupid thing to do.
scs
I wonder if there was a little racism involved in the lack of urgency for the better levees. After all, the historic districts are on higher ground. Only poor black people live close to the lake and there are no major industry and businesses there, so people put it on the backburner. The real solution would have been to move those people to other areas in the first place, not build up the levees, but that would have politically almost impossible.
And as for Bush, he does seem to be a little slow on the uptake. He seems to take a few days, but once he makes up his mind, he goes for it like a bulldog. That’s why people reelected him. I know slow reactors like him, and I think it mostly a good quality. They are less likely to get into stupid arguments and say things they don’t mean. Bush has been very free of gaffes, compared to most politicians.
skip
Unlike the evangelical Jeremiahs, the people blaming Bush aren’t making an agument based on moonbeams. Witness paleocon P.C. Roberts (note the date):
>>Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told the New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): “It appears that the money has been moved in the president’s budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that’s the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can’t be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.”
Veeshir
Every now and then I find myself starting to respond to a comment, but then realizing it’s futile, I don’t. This time, I’m going in Captain.
wonder if there was a little racism involved in the lack of urgency for the better levees. After all, the historic districts are on higher ground.
Ummmm, Bourbon St. ends at the Canal. It’s underwater as we speak. That’s not “poor, black people” that’s one of New Orleans’ biggest sources of income.
I mean, Barely Legal is probably underwater!!!!!! What will all those 28-34 year old “teenagers” do for cash? And they’re mostly white. Or so I’ve heard.
What about all the white people who like to look cool by going to jazz and blues bars? What are they going to do?
I still say it was Al Gore’s fault. He had the clearest vision of what this country needed to stave off Global Warming (dum, dum, dum, dummmmmmmmmm) and he did nothing for 8 years as VP. Two of those years with a compliant Congress. I mean, read Earth in the Balance for Gaia’s sake.
Impeach President Gore!!!! After we re-elect him of course.
scs
Yes Veeshir, true, the French Quarter has experienced some flooding, but get all the facts. The French Quarter, I heard on TV, is 5 feet ABOVE sea level. I heard the elegant Uptown district is even higher than that. Contrast that to the area near Lake Ponchatrain, where it is up to I think 12 feet BELOW sea level, and mostly poor. That is the difference. If there were flooding problems, French Quarter and Uptown wood drain eventually. The other areas would just sit like a soup bowl.
Joe Albanese
lickspittle’s latest example of his fairness and impartiality:
is equally as stupid as:
psssst, lickspittle, its not just liberals that are questioning OUR GOVERNEMENT, (which happens to include Bush) as to what OUR GOVERNMENT is doing, has done, will do with respect to this national tragedy.
Andrew Sullivan:
and National Review’s The Corner has been hammering the President. this from Ron Dreher:
and Rich Lowry ran this email:
.
Joe Albanese
How about this? Am I allowed to question MY GOVERNMENT about this insanity or am I just being stupid again?
.
scs
Well good for Canada. That was a nice offer. I would hope they are not allowed to send goods because there is no distribution system for the goods yet, not because we are too proud to take it, even though neither choices are good I guess.
Joe Albanese
more STUPID stuff right John?
Political decisions have CONSEQUENCES. Consequences should have ACCOUNTABILITY
StupidityRules
I can understand saying no to food relief and money. But saying no to foreign Search & Rescue teams? You can’t get enough of those after a disaster. Sometimes pride is a killer.
and Stupidity really rules…
George Turner
So if Bush should’ve kept funding flood control, what would the money have done for a CAT 5, in which the levees need to be about ten feet higher. Why is Bush blamed for failing to raise ALL the levees two feet a year when the previous forty year’s worth of Presidents raised them maybe two feet in total?
George Turner
And on another note, why were the city officials sitting on their thumbs waiting for federal money to keep their city from going “bloop” while dumping vast amounts of local tax money into tourism projects?
Bob
This is all about the reactionary right using the government to concentrate wealth instead using the government to protect the common good. BOHICA.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Huh? Yeah, I guess letting those who earn money actually keep more of it is concentrating wealth?
Why do Lefties accuse the Right of being selfish when it is the LEFT that constantly asks for something (money) for nothing?
Don
Man did you jump the gun on that prediction.
Jim Caputo
And if that’s true, do you think the public will ever see or hear about the report?
jobiuspublius
Money to prevent and deal with the worst of what Katrina has done is money for nothing? Raising the minimum wage is money for nothing? You dumbass low ranking cracker puke.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
No, I’m talking about money for nothing as in raising the minimum wage just because you FEEL it is the right thing to do. So can an employer expect to get more productivity out the now higher paid worker? Does the worker all of a sudden require better skills and become more efficient just because of the raise?
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
“Does the worker all of a sudden require better skills and become more efficient just because of the raise?”
Sorry, meant ACQUIRE not REQUIRE.
jobiuspublius
Does the gas station all of a sudden aquire better skills and become more efficient just because of the price gouge?
Life isn’t linear and simple the way our economists would like.
scs
I agree that the Bush spending cuts for the levees was a bad idea. After all, you always prepare for the worst, right, especially in such a vulnerable area. I’m curious to know just how much it would have cost to build the proper system. On the other hand, I agree with George Turner that Bush should not be blamed for all of this and has only a small part to bare. After all, the levees were too low for hundred of years for a Cat 5 hurricane, Bush’s cuts came only a few years ago. What did Reagan and Clinton do? What did the state do? Everyone has a part of the blame to share.
jobiuspublius
Line them all up. I have plenty of guillotines, figuratively speaking.
There is more to this failure than just levees, much more.
Jeff
I agree with those who say there is a big difference between saying “God destroyed NO because he hates sinners” and saying “The disaster was made much worse than otherwise because of misplace funding and disaster response priorities of the Bush administration.” One is arguable, even if wrong, the other is batshit crazy.
reno, illini
Bush has shit for brains. Withrawl is what his parents should have practiced 60 years ago.
reno, illini
Bush has pooh pooh for brains. Withraw is what his parents shoul have practiced 60 years ago…
nyrev
Stupidity said: Does the worker all of a sudden acquire better skills and become more efficient just because of the raise?
Nope. But the person looking for work can go off welfare now because she can afford to put gas in the car and pay a babysitter. I thought you righties were all about getting those lazy welfare moms off the couch and into the workforce.