It looks like my favorite moron is back in the news:
To borrow a line from Dorothy: We’re not in Kansas anymore.
Unlike the Kansas School Board, which earlier this summer approved allowing educators to teach theories in addition to evolution that explain life on Earth, the Utah Board of Education on Friday unanimously approved a position statement supporting the continued exclusive teaching of evolution in state classrooms.
Only two people out of the dozens who attended Friday’s meeting sided with Sen. Chris Buttars, R-West Jordan, and his proposal to allow teaching “intelligent design” as a theory to explain the origins of life.
Good for them. Buttars, however, remained defiant and vowed to soldier on:
The school board ignored Buttars’ complaint that board members never invited proponents of intelligent design to participate in drafting the position statement.
The board also chose to decline his request to delay voting on the document until the senator could give a two-hour presentation arguing for intelligent design.
During the public comment period, Buttars repeated his intention to either introduce legislation to require intelligent design be a school topic, or place the issue on next year’s ballot in the form of a referendum.
If you will remember, Buttars also has my favorite quote, ever, regarding intelligent design:
Buttars doesn’t disregard evolution completely, rather he believes God is the creator, but His creations have evolved within their own species.
“We get different types of dogs and different types of cats, but you have never seen a ‘dat,’ ‘’ he said.
Buttars lives up to his potential again in the hearings:
Buttars insisted that all he wants is equal time in the classroom – and it doesn’t have to be the science classroom.
“Whenever anyone challenges the evolution people, they go berserk,” he said. “[Evolution] is not a fact . . . We’re dealing with censorship here. If we only taught Shakespeare in English class, that wouldn’t be fair.”
Some of the scientists retorted that science is not a democracy.
“Legitimacy is not determined by public opinion polls, radio and TV talks shows, privately published books and, most certainly, not by legislation,” said Richard Tolman, a professor of biology and science education at Utah Valley State College.
In a summer full of crappy news, how about three cheers for the Utah Board of Education?
over it
Hip-hip-Hooray! ;)
cd6
Buttars is awesome
Man how many hilarious “dat” -like quotes would come out of a 2 hour presentation??
What if he had like slides from powerpoint to go with it? Imagine a flow chart showing how dats evolve.
I feel like we all missed out here :(
docG
Good for Utah! (Fourth generation Kansan now hangs head in shame.)
Davebo
You lead the country with the supporters you have, not the supporters you wish you had.
Demdude
Common sense wins out. Fabulous.
John Cole
And rare.
ppGaz
“Arf”
— Muttonhead (one of my four cats)
SomeCallMeTim
I totally disagree. I hope Buttars starts winning some of these. I think we ought to be pushing for “Thar’ Be Dragons” educational programs in some of the Red States. I think it would be fun to drive across America and get to see how people lived in Ye Olden’ Times. Imagine how fun it would be to watch a trial about whether or not someone was a witch (“A Witch!”). And if we do this right, it would all be free.
You people have no vision.
washerdreyer
Does anyone know if the LDS church have a position on this? Having just finished Under the Banner of Heaven, I’m under the impression that they have a great deal of sway in all areas of Utah politics.
capnmike
CAN WE HAVE EQUAL TIME (gotta be politically correct here!) for STUPID DESIGN???
Airmon
He should stop by and meet Chester, my “Cog”. He looks like a cat, but acts like a dog. Even hates all other cats and comes when he’s called.
Kitty
Isn’t there a dat in the Book of Revelations?
Female and Technical
The Left should not be gleeful about this. It is the direct result of dumbing down and relativizing science – the worst elements of what their advocates think of as post-modernism.
When you have “women’s science” alleging that quantitative analysis is “sexist”, don’t be surprised if the other side of the spectrum takes up your successful strategy to dismantle objective science, history and other disciplines.
dlnevins
Hurrah for Utah!
And Professor Tolman’s comment nails it. You can add ID to science classrooms, but that does not make ID science. Anyone who really wants to learn the science of biology eventually has to toss ID on the heap of useless ideas, just as anyone who’s truly interested in astronomy has to give up on heliocentrism and astrology.
Geoduck
Washerdreyer- I wondered about that myself. It’s an unqualified good thing that they gave ID the boot, but how is the state’s quasi-official religion handled in the school cirriculum?
Narvy
washerdreyer Says:
This is sarcasm, right?
Geoduck Says:
Could we move this over to the spelling thread?
Narvy
Female and Technical Says:
Wow. This is a new one for me. Can you provide a reference?
Narvy
John, are you sure his name isn’t spelled “Butt arse”?
Haven’t we seen him on television in “Beavis and Buttarse”?
JTS
From now on, Buttars will be arguing against the theory of gravity.
Instead, he will be demanding that science classes begin teaching Intelligent Falling.
jobiuspublius
ROFLMAO State funded sunday school. Pick your sunday course, intelligent design(NOT!), stupid design, or a sunday school voucher for the rest of us.
SoCalJustice
I’ve seen a dat.
ol cranky
Where else is he teaching Shakespeare . . . Math? (or does drama now count as core curriculum?)
Toothless in Kansas
Shazamm! Ya mean there’s folks don’t know that Jesus made the world and all its critters?!
David W
The Onion did a great parody of ID a couple of weeks ago, proposing that, since gravity has never been fully explained, that ‘Intelligent Falling’ be taught–the money quote at the end was something like, ‘when you fall, it is the hand of the Almighty that is pushing you down!’
Narvy
I think that’s a misreading, what he meant was ‘If we taught only Shakespeare in English class, that wouldn’t be fair’.
But I guess that’s a taughtology. (Dives under desk.)
SeesThroughIt
No kidding–and in Utah, no less! I figured they’d buckle to religious creationism in record time. But man, how ’bout a hand for the good folks in Utah!
Hannibal
One thing to keep in mind, a lot of Creationists don’t buy into Intelligent Design either, as it contradicts the bible. Really, ID doesn’t have very many proponents, just a few very loud ones.
franc tireur
If all they taught in ‘English’ class was Shakespeare, we would talketh a bit odd, thinks you?
I demand equal-time too!
http://www.churchofthesubgenius.com
rick
Bekkieann
Lifetime Utahn here. Buttars apparently hasn’t visited our own Hogle Zoo where we have a stuffed Liger, also a lifetime Utah resident. Granted mommy tiger and daddy lion were both cats.
I just heard on the news that Katrina survivors, upon learning they are being sent to Utah, are getting off the plane. Ouch!
ppGaz
“Meowwrrrgrowf!”
— Dweezil The Poopy Doopy (another of my four cats)
bob
I despise them
But my brothers and sisters, they are winning
What judges has bush installed already?
What SCOTUS nominee will be confirmed as chief justice?
What elections did they steal?
What kind of laws are they passing?
Whose money are they giving to Halliburton?
What corp. got billions in tax cuts?
What liberties have the eliminated?
Who is making bank with oil profits?
What city is under water because of budget cuts?
What ethics charges are going unaccounted for?
Whose kids are dying in Iraq?
What science are they keeping from us?
What god do they worship?
They are winning
2006 is closer than we think…please get active
.
Ima Pauled
Evolution is a religion of faith with no provable case and is the faith of the ignorant. Thousands of billions of amoeba generations have been produced over thousands of years and not one has evolved into anything other then an amoeba. Teaching evolution serves only to dumb down the proponents of evolution even further were it possible. The beginning of wisdom is the acknowledgement of God.
aimee
but, of course, the intelligent design to be taught will be one of the christian faith, correct?
what, i say, about flying spaghetti monsterism? why can’t we be represented?
Scott
Oh, fear not. The ID thing in Utah isn’t finished. And fwiw, this really isn’t about ID or getting religion in schools at all. Utah public schools all over the state offer LDS religion classes, and to my knowledge, all of the public universities have an “Institute of Religion” near them where students take classes as part of their regular schedule (the courses don’t count for credit, but the relationship is designed to be seamless).
This is about undoing the Enlightenment.
Sirkowski
Booya!
franc tireur
ramen…
http://www.subgenius.com
Gary Farber
“It looks like my favorite moron is back in the news”
Sounds like, but did I miss where you provided a link to where you’re quoting from?
Andrew
For those who’ve asked about the LDS Church’s position on evolution and its place in the curriculum…here ya go:
Since the 1910’s, the Mormon Church leadership has occassionally issued statement’s reaffirming their belief that God did create the earth and its inhabitants. However, these statements have allowed room for many to believe that evolution could be God’s method.
At BYU, the LDS Church’s flagship institution, evolution is taught as fact by Mormon biology professors.
As far as making a statement on Buttars’ proposal, the LDS Church has not officially commented on it, and I don’t expect it to anytime soon. The LDS Church leadership is very aware of the perception (and indeed, reality) of their political influence in the state and are careful not to seem overbearing, at least politically.
As to questions of the state curriculum, Utah History is a required course for every seventh or eighth grader, which of course, is heavy on the whole Brigham Young leading the Mormon pioneers across the Great Plains to Utah. While it is not overtly religious, there is certainly a sense of milleniarianism in the curriculum. But that is as close as Mormonism is to being taught in the classrooms.
Mormon high school students are allowed the option of taking religious instruction courses off-campus during the school day. These Church buildings are generally located across the street from the high school. However, no student, even Mormon students, is compelled by the state (family and societal pressures, of course, are an entirely different matter) to take these religious courses.
Even a lapsed Mormon like myself can safely say that the Mormon Church is careful, in most cases, not to overstep its bounds by dictating what should or should not be taught in Utah schools.
Adrian Cook
Officially, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon Church) has not taken a stand on evolution.
Evolution is unabashedly and rigorously taught by faculty members of Brigham Young University.
There are documents on reserve at the Harold B. Lee Library at BYU that allow students to read statements of former presidents (prophets) of the Church who have sanctioned (in the positive sense) the instruction of evolution. Perhaps, the former president who most strongly and specifically defended the teaching of evolution was David O. McKay who was president of the Church from 1951-1970. Official endorsement of instruction about evolution is the case even though Joseph Fielding Smith (a descendent of Joseph Smith, the person who was most instrumental in founding the Church) wrote a book on the origin of life which assailed the concept of evolution. For a relatively short time, Joseph Fielding Smith was president of the Church, and in that capacity, he never condemned the teaching of evolution.
Incidentally, “Dinosaur Jim”, a former faculty member of BYU described and named the two largest dinosaurs ever discovered (Supersaurus and Ultrasaurus) with the exception of a large dinosaur recently discovered in Argentina.
Andrew
By the way, if you think the “dat” comment was as idiotic as it comes, you should see Buttars when the Legislature is actually in session!
He’s like a mix of Santorum-insensitivity, Bush-cluelessnessand ignorance, and Pat Robertson-sense of being on a mission.
He is a Utah state treasure.
goonie bird
All these evolution crack-pots can come up with is a few bone fragments and few meselly fossels and some rediclous theory that has yet to be proven i mean even darwin said the fossels show no proof and the leakies are the sorryist bunch of crack-pots ever
ppGaz
“squeak”
— Squeaker Doodle, Who Always Uses Her Noodle
(third of my four cats to speak on this topic)
ppGaz
“goonie bird is the most bizarre troll I’ve ever seen. Can I kill him and eat him?”
— FrankLee MyDear (fourth of my four cats to speak today)
“In all the fair city, there is no finer kitty, than sweet sweet FrankLee MyDear.”
Andrew
For those interested in reading a reliable source on the story: http://sltrib.com/search/ci_2864394
Gray
“you have never seen a ‘dat’”
I’m not so sure about dat…
Andrew
Another gem from Buttars, as found in the Salt Lake Tribune story: “In my constituency,” he said, “the vast majority believe God created man and we are his spirit children, not his spirit apes.”
tzs
Someone above mentioned about “woman’s science.” As a woman with a doctorate in physics, let me tell you that “woman’s science” == fruitcake. These theories seem to be generated by the nuttier of the feminist groups who seem to have overdosed on idiocy and have never done any science in their lives. I’ve never run into any woman in any science or engineering department who thinks that way. My gut reaction is this was originally dreamed up by some bitchy undergrad who got an F on a physics test and didn’t want to admit she didn’t know anything.
My roommate from college had a law professor (female) who ranted this way. My roommate’s response was that since she had graduated from MIT she bloody well knew what science was and the professor was talking crap.
Marq
Are you implying that every instance of a single-celled organism dividing has been observed?! By a microbiologist who was qualified to determine if the original amoeba was, indeed, still a pair of amoebas after it had divided? Enjoy the antibiotic-resistant bacterial infection you’ll doubtlessly one day contract.
Ivy
I’ve seen a cog or two.
Adrian Cook
Evolution is not a theory. It’s a fact.
More than 4000 yr ago, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, brussels sprouts, kale and kohlrabbi did not exist. Since then, via crossing by man, they have all descended from Charlock (Wild Mustard) [Sinapis arvensis]. To some of you: You have really eaten broccoli. That you did is not a figment of your imagination.
I make one more point.
What does it mean that a bacterium become resistant to antibiotics or pesticides? It means that the bacterium experienced a mutation that allowed it to survive the effects of an antibiotic or pesticide, and hence to have an increased chance of reproducing and passing on its genetic resistance to offspring. After a number of generations, this resistant trait becomes predominant in a population of the bacterium. The circumstance that I just described can be measured, and it is an inconvertible manifestation of evolution.
Biologists don’t talk of “Darwin’s theory of evolution”. It has been accepted by biologists whose articles are published in journals since the 1800s. Sometimes, biologists speak of theories that may explain some aspect of evolution, but not about “the theory of evolution.” Lay people talk about that. Evolution is a biological principle.
Adrian Cook
Sorry. “inconvertible” should read “incontrovertible”.
Barb
Witch trials aren’t really that amusing; although I am sure you were being funny. What is this women’s science thing?
I have always seen Utah (and Idaho) as one of the most backward states in the country. I was wrong. Utah, for right now, I am proud of you. Thank you for giving me a chance to say that!
Narvy
Ignoring the fact that this is incorrect, are we to conclude that ID and Creationism are not religions of faith? That they have provable cases?
The fact that examples of an organism that might have evolved to produce a different organism continue to exist shows that no previous generations ever evolved? There’s no such thing as evolutionary branching?
Teaching ID or creationism serves only to smarten up the opponents of evolution were it possible.
Any God in particular? Or just a god in general? This must explain the wisdom of Pat Roberts, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, and all the other politically active acknowledgers of God.
I’m appalled.
tzs
Well, the concept of “woman’s science” I’ve run into runs the gamut all the way from belief that if women had been the majority of people developing science the theories developed would have been different (This one I call “Relativity as Indication of Priapism”) to the scientific method as being sexist in itself (huh?) to the less loony idea that areas such as medicine have been unconsciously biased through the assumption male==standard and female==deviation from standard. Dunno how true it is but did hear that for quite a few medical trials that were not specifically sex-linked (i.e.,prostate cancer, breast cancer) they had concentrated on using men only and had extended the results to cover women as well (reason for not including women is the extra complication in analysis due to the monthly hormone fluctuations.)
Then you get the real wackos, who gone so far to the left (doing math and science is against one’s feminist nature) that they reach the nuts on the right (doing math and science is against one’s feminine nature.)
bill darbyshire
Well this is all hogwash. There’s no such thing as ID…. and we don’t teach anything else in the Schools that requires us to “have faith” that it’s true, do we (except early American History, heh, heh)?
So to end the discussion, I sent a message to many sites including the Christian Coalition, saying: “Jesus is a Liberal, and God Created Evolution”….. no response from any of them, but I’m now on hundreds of new spam mailing lists for “Christian Mortgage” or “Christian Singles”, etc… follow the money….
ppGaz
DougJ? Is that you?
Narvy
And that’s a good thing?
BTW, kohlrabi has only one L. I don’t think it’s Jewish.
mmmbeer
You, they should just teach intelligent design when they teach fables & fiction in literature and/or politics. That’d be an interesting way to “get it into the curriculum” but in the correct context.
Jeff Maier
Adrian
Unfortunately, these examples look like they support Buttars’ “dat” intra-species evolution postulate. You don’t show evidence of Charlock evolving into a mollusk.
:-)
Narvy
Wait, wait! That should have been “has only one B“.
Adrian Cook
The descendents of Charlock [Sinapsis arvensis] belong to two species and several subspecies. Those two species are completely distinct from their ancestor Sinapsis arvensis.
Broccoli is Brassica oleracea italica; Cauliflower is Brassica oleracea botrytis; Kale is Brassica oleracea acephala; Kohlrabi is Brassica oleracea gongylodes; Brussels Sprouts is Brassica oleracea gemmifera]; Cabbage is Brassica pekinensis. These species arose within a period of
Adrian Cook
Sorry, some of my text was deleted.
The descendents of Charlock arose within a period of less than 4000 years. Imagine the changes that could occur witin 4 million years (1000 times as long) or 4 billion years (1,0000,000 times as long). Earth is about 3.9 billion years old (almost 4 billion years old).
Narvy
Adrian, please finish the sentence. I can’t stand the suspense.
Adrian Cook
I mean to say life has existed on Earth for 3.9 billion years.
Narvy
I have it on good authority that the earth is actually 6000 years old. And it’s flat.
Adrian Cook
Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old.
Ima Pauled
Which God? There are hundreds of Gods–Some peoples god is Money, Some worship sports figures, some worship rock stars. You have to figure out for yourself what God you will worship or if you will worship one at all. Those that choose to believe they evolved from gooey green slime will have no spiritual God. Only when you are under fire in war or caught in the midst of a disaster like Hurricane Katrina will you look for the true God. Their are no athiests in a crisis.
tBone
Super-intelligent broccoli will take over the planet. They will rustle their brain-fronds with pleasure as they dip their human prisoners into scalding cheese and then consume them.
Take your stinking leaves off me, you damn dirty vegetable!
ppGaz
That’s Kansas.
Narvy
Oh, in that case, I take back the 6000 years old statement. But it’s still flat.
Narvy
I believe that was originally “in foxholes”, coined during World War II. Oh, wait, no, that was “atheists in foxholes”. A completely different cliche.
db
“The beginning of wisdom is the acknowledgement of God.”
By definition, wouldn’t that actually be the end of wisdom, since you are no longer so concerned with thinking for yourself?
Or were you just trying to be cleverly profound?
CessnaDriver
Horsecrap! There are plenty of athiests in a crisis/foxhole
CessnaDriver
Saying, “There is no way a true God would let this crap happen!”
While others might go to church after being attacked in the name of religion, ala 9/11, I wonder about the number of athiests created by any of these large disasters.
How about the believers of the FSM? Why would the FSM let this happen to NOLA?
-30-
Free Thinker
I hate to break it to you folks, but when they talk about teaching Evolution in schools they’re talking about the “big bang” theory, not the idea that things evolve (which is clearly documented). The big bang is no more a scientific fact than intelligent design, neither one has a place in education, unless it’s being taught as a widely accepted theory, which applies to both theories equally.
Narvy
If we’re not going to spell atheist correctly, we ought to move this to John’s spelling thread.
Narvy
Really! I thought when they talk about teaching Evolution in schools they were talking about teaching Evolution. I would expect the Big Bang to be talked about in the context of teaching the Big Bang.
I also was under the impression that, while not universally accepted, Big Bang theory was supported by some evidence, which is why some credentialed astronomers thought it might explain observable physical phenomena. Just like Intelligent Design.
Accountability is a dirty word
Giving the fundie right a issue to place on referenda is not really a good thing. Just like the phoney gay marriage issue of 2004, this may be Rove’s way of getting out the base in 2006.
The majority of Americans support teaching this bogus science in the science classroom. Maybe it would be better for the school curriculum committees to control how this gets brought in because it’s coming in via referenda.
kevin
I agree. If you only taught Shakespeare in an English class you should be fired. However, if you tried to teach comic books in an English class claiming they deserved equal time, you should be committed to an asylum.
tBone
Huh? Methinks you have your scientific disciplines confused here.
Free Thinker
[quote]Huh? Methinks you have your scientific disciplines confused here[/quote]
It hasn’t been that many years since I was in school (in the bible thumping south no less) and in the science classes I had, big bang and Evolution was a package deal. The term “Evolution” is often used (especially by fundies) to describe the big bang and everything after that. I realise that it is incorrect terminology, but the fact remains that no matter what you call it, the big bang is being taught as fact in atleast some schools across the country, and it falls under the banner of Evolution. Any human being with a mind capable of thought can look around at this big complex world and see that things evolve, thats not the teaching most of the fundies that I run into are so rabidly against. If a little common sense is applied it becomes easy to see that comparing the full idea of intelligent design to only evolution (without the big bang included) is comparing apples and golfballs. On the other hand, if you compare the whole idea of big bang Evolution against the idea of intelligent design, you end up with 2 “theories” (and I use that in the most loose possible way) that explain the same events in vastly different ways.
tzs
If they don’t like the Big Bang, then how do they explain the background cosmic radiation (3 degrees Kelvin)? I thought that was a perfect case of a theory predicting something, then they went out and looked for it and found it.
dantewyrmfoe
As a long time resident of Utah it’s nice to see the occasional nugget of common sense leak out from behind the Zion Curtain.
I’ve noticed a few people asking how the LDS church deals with the concept of ID in the classroom.
To be perfectly honest it never really comes up. The LDS faith in Utah seems to be very “members only” when it comes to their core beliefs, so it’s rare that they introduce any of it into the public education system.
At least that’s how it was when I was in school, not having children of my own I couldn’t tell you for certain how it is now.
tBone
Just to be clear here – when you say Big Bang, you’re referring to the beginning of the universe, matter spewing out of nowhere, etc? I’m having trouble wrapping my head around how you get a “package deal” out of that – it’s a big leap from cosmology to biology. You must have had an interesting science teacher.
The Witch
“If we only taught Shakespeare in English class, that wouldn’t be fair.”
Where else are you gonna teach Shakespeare? History?
(Incidentally, I’m all about teaching intelligent design in English class. Along with all the other works of fiction…)
Narvy
Intelligent Design doesn’t always work, witness the proponents of Intelligent Design.
Oh, wait a minute, I thought we were talking about De Sign of Intellignce.
Oh, wait another minute, maybe that should be “witless, the proponents of Intelligent Design”.
I have to go now, my bucket o’ puns is empty.
Richard Gardner
You’ve got different kinds of cactus and you’ve got different kinds of dogs.
But you never see a cog.
Jrod
Big Bang Theory being taught along with Evolution? Are you serious? You went to a crappy school man. Those are two completely different subjects in two entirely different disciplines. Big Bang Theory is part of astrophysics while Evolution is clearly biology.
I suppose in a generic “science” classroom setting a teacher might also mention Big Bang theory. Teaching it simultaneously with Evolution however, is just plain confusing. Some people might want to draw parallels between the “evolution” of the universe and biological Evolution, but they are completely different. The only similarity is in the basic meaning of evolution — change in a particular direction over time.
Charles
Is Karl Rove a Mormon? I know he dropped out of the University of Utah, but like Bush, he fails upwardly.
Brendan
These “intelligent design” people are the morons. And Mr. Cole, you are aiding and abbetting the moron-ity by EQUIVOCATING. The issue is NOT whether so-called “Intelligent Design” can be taught. The issue is whether it can be taught IN SCIENCE CLASS, AS IF IT WERE SCIENCE. It is not. It is Religion masquerading as science.
If we’re going to have discussions of a creator god in schools, can we discuss whether this god is also misogynistic, or even downright evil. I mean, If God could have spared the millions slaughtered by tyrants in the twentieth century the pain and terror and horror, shouldn’t he have? Perhaps we should discuss whether God is a sadist who enjoys watching humans suffering?
The REASON we keep god out of public education is because issues like this, issues that COULD be discussed reasonably would be utter;y offensive to many and could make school a VERY hostile environment. If they want to push this god down our throats, don’t be surprised if some would give him the Karl-Rove Treatment.
Victor
Doesn’t Buttars know the “dogcow”? Moof! is the sound a dogcow makes and Clarus is its name.
If you have used an Apple computer you know what it means. For more you can read:
http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/5439/
“To stupid statements stupid quotes.”
shadowpoodle
I’m sure it’s just because Noah couldn’t find a couple of dats for the ark.
Oh, nuts. Sorry about the flood reference.
…and by the way. I don’t see how an intelligent design cirriculum could be created by stupid people. Kinda oxymoronic if you think about it.
Virginia Progressive
I, for one, applaud Buttar’s efforts. Equal time for alternatives to the heresy of Evilution! Thus, the ignorant masses finally will be made privy to the all encompassing truth that is the Flying Spaghetti Monster (say Rahmen!)