I understand a great number of people on both sides of the political spectrum think FEMA has not reacted fast enough, but there is just a large degree of stuff out there that is turning out to be inacccurate, an incomplete portrayal of events, or, in some cases, just plain nonsense. Here are some examples:
1.) Fresh off of vacation, Andrew Sullivan is recharged, raring to go, and has apparently left his fact-checker back at Provincetown. As one of the first prominent bloggers to sieze upon the ‘funds were cut/levee failure’ ( “Yes, some would even blame Bush and the war for a hurricane. But blaming Bush and the war for the poor state of New Orleans’ levees is a legitimate argument. And it could be a crushing one”), Andrew has yet to make a correction or retraction of that charge. And it has been disproven, pretty definitively in my estimation, to include Mike Parker (a former Republican Mississippi congressman who headed the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers from October 2001 until March 2002, whose previous comments were used to ‘prove’ this meme), stating on Hardball as I write this (much to the shock and horror of Chris Matthews) that the President could not have done anything to stop this levee failure. This issue was also put to bed pretty definitively on 60 Minutes by Al Naomi, the individual responsible for managing the levees:
Al Naomi is the man who manages them for the Army Corps of Engineers. He was probably the first to understand what was about to happen to New Orleans.
“Flood walls are unforgiving. They’re either there or they’re not,” Naomi says.
The walls were designed in 1965 to withstand a Category 3 storm. Category 4 Katrina pushed her surge over the top.
“It just was overtopped and the water started pouring over the support for the flood wall, failed and it just pushed out and toppled over and that was it,” Naomi explains.
Naomi was at a loss when asked how this engineering disaster could have been prevented.
“You see there was not sufficient money or time to do anything about this,” Naomi says. “If someone had said, ‘O.K. here is a billion dollars, stop this failure from happening for a Category 4,’ it couldn’t have been done in time. I’d of had to start 20 years ago to where I feel today I would’ve been safe from a Category 4 storm like Katrina.
“Sure it should have been done 20 years ago but what can we do about that? You have to recognize before we had Category 3 protection we didn’t have anything.”
Andrew’s latest gaffe involves the same rush to judgement- a combination of knowing the facts before they are presented, a simple misunderstanding of how certain agencies and departments function, and a gut instinct that President Bush has just done something wrong. Andrew, yesterday:
The military was prepared to help before Katrina hit, according to NorthCom’s Lt Commander. All they needed was a presidential go-ahead. They didn’t get one.
A pretty damning charge- there were assets in place, waiting to rescue people and provide aid, and the President just dithered and did nothing.
Except it is completely false. This allegation comes from a wishful reading of a briefing by Northcom official Lt. Commander Paul Kelly, in which he stated the following:
“We had the USS Bataan sailing almost behind the hurricane so once the hurricane made landfall, its search and rescue helicopters could be available almost immediately So, we had things ready.
“The only caveat is: we have to wait until the president authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can’t just act in this fashion; we have to wait for the president to give us permission.”
Kevin Drum also siezed upon this, and stated:
So why didn’t the president issue the orders?
He did, and Jeff Goldtsein ably demonstrated this yesterday in a lengthy post (and if you aren’t reading Jeff every day, I don’t understand why you even bother reading blogs. He is one of the best out there). But the meme took hold, it was rinsed and repeated ad nauseum throughout the blogosphere, and took on an air of fact. So much so, that Lt. Commander Kelly took it upon himself to email Kevin Drum and make a correction:
USNORTHCOM was prepositioned for response to the hurricane, but as per the National Response Plan, we support the lead federal agency in disaster relief — in this case, FEMA. The simple description of the process is the state requests federal assistance from FEMA which in turn may request assistance from the military upon approval by the president or Secretary of Defense. Having worked the hurricanes from last year as well as Dennis this year, we knew that FEMA would make requests of the military — primarily in the areas of transportation, communications, logistics, and medicine. Thus we began staging such assets and waited for the storm to hit.
The biggest hurdles to responding to the storm were the storm itself — couldn’t begin really helping until it passed — and damage assessment — figuring out which roads were passable, where communications and power were out, etc. Military helos began damage assessment and SAR on Tuesday. Thus we had permission to operate as soon as it was possible. We even brought in night SAR helos to continue the mission on Tuesday night.
The President and Secretary of Defense did authorize us to act right away and are not to blame on this end. Yes, we have to wait for authorization, but it was given in a timely manner.
Lt. Commander Kelly understood how ugly this charge was, and even commented to those in the Washington Monthly’s comments section who said the new clarification was forced or pressured:
My response was not pressured from above. It was purely for clarification. I easily saw how my comments were misunderstood and wanted to do right by the readers of this site. I have yet to see what the boss has to say.
The boss probably doesn’ have anything to say, because the boss, like Kelly, has better things to do. But in the rush to point fingers, it is not surprising that stuff like this is popping up, particularly among the ‘know-nothing left,’ as Andrew himself labelled some of the people pushing this meme when dismissing their opinions on an issue he actually has followed much more closely
And how did Andrew himself react? Here is Andrew’s ‘correction’:
Carpetbagger corrects to say that it was FEMA and not the president who did not give the necessary order to get to work.
Which isn’t what the Lt. Commander had to say at all, but Andrew has his story and he is sticking to it. Again, if someone in Provincetown can find Andrew’s fact-checker, who apparently was left behind on vacation, please let me know. I will personally coordinate the fund-raising effort to get him a ride back to work.
2.) I am sure FEMA has screwed up some things. Why? Because every situation like the one created over the past few weeks is one in which lessons can be learned, mistakes are made, and lives are unnecessarily lost. It is inevitable. There is a reason the military does ‘After-Action Reports’- to assess the action, to learn lessons, and to make the necessary changes so that future similar events are more efficient.
Furthermore, I would bet there were some unique failures in this event- the breakdown in communication seems to me to be a key example. Similarly, the public statements of Michael Brown are in and of themself pretty disturbing, demonstrating a lack of situational awareness. But right now, I would wager a great deal of the FEMA ‘failures’ we are learning about simply are not failures at all. An example of the sort of thing being labeled as FEMA perfidy:
“We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back.”
Why on earth would FEMA reject a shipment of water to a site ravaged by Hurricane, in desperate need of relief? The answer, it seems, is that they didn’t:
Sharon Weber of Wal-Mart called back. She said that last week, FEMA diverted those water trucks to “another location, which [FEMA] felt was in greater need than where they were headed.” Weber emphasized that Wal-Mart would not override any FEMA decisions made in emergency situations. So Broussard, who claimed that Wal-Mart’s aid was ourtight rejected, was wrong. Based on Wal-Mart’s information, their trucks were taken where FEMA thought they were needed most. It would appear that the same story occurred with the Coast Guard fuel issue. Broussard said that FEMA wouldn’t release the fuel to Jefferson Parish – but surely that fuel went somewhere else it was needed. Thanks to Wal-Mart’s Sharon Weber for tracking down this information.
In other words, what sounds like rank incompetence, an abdication of duty, and something that is inexcusable actually turns out to be simply a diversion of assets by those responsible for the coordination of relief. This isn’t a dereliction of duty- this is a difference in where assets should be deployed and how.
I don’ know what else is true or false right now, but as anecdotal evidence of the accuracy of the numerous FEMA failures, this might be reason for some people to view similar reports with a touch more caution. We will find out what happened, eventually, but it would be wise to remember why After Action Reports come, quite reasonably, after the action.
3.) We all heard all of the horrible stories about conditions in the Superdome for several days, where survivors were sent with little pre-positioned food or water or plans for evacuation prior to the storm even hitting, and where they huddled for days, survivors continuously arriving, in awful conditions. There were numerous reports of violence, rape, and murder taking place, and the responsible press has finally decided to investigate these stories and verify what actually transpired. Unfortunately, this sort of undertaking is left to the foreign press, as the American press is busy emoting elsewhere (or, in Geraldo’s case, providing CPR to pets stranded by the flood):
But as time goes on many remain unsubstantiated and may yet prove to be apocryphal.
New Orleans police have been unable to confirm the tale of the raped child, or indeed any of the reports of rapes, in the Superdome and convention centre.
New Orleans police chief Eddie Compass said last night: “We don’t have any substantiated rapes. We will investigate if the individuals come forward.”
And while many claim they happened, no witnesses, survivors or survivors’ relatives have come forward.
In closing, I am sure there have been mistakes. I am sure there have been breakdowns in communication, breakdowns in planning, a lack of foresight in some cases, a lack of creative problem-solving in others, and many other issues that need to be addressed in the future. However, I am also aware that there is a lot of crap out there, a great deal of which is being willfully hoisted on a public that doesn’t know any better.
It my turn out that there have been a number of inexcusable errors that have occurred over the past few days and weeks, but the time to address those issues is when we know what actually happened, not when we are simply repeating parts of the whole story, absent context, absent verification, and absent the type of serious approach that this sort of investigation demands.
*** Update ***
It sure looks like there is plenty of damning enough evidence without all this speculation.
*** Update #2 ***
More here from Matt Welch, and the Belgravia Dispatch offers up some thoughts on Katrina and the response.
Jim Caputo
That is so unfair. The president went to Arizona and played air guitar. And then he had to go back to Crawford (probably to get something really important that would have helped the hurricane/flood victims). So I don’t think it’s fair to say he did “nothing.”
ppGaz
So, let’s say for the moment that everything you’ve said is factually correct (I’ll stipulate to it) and that your conclusions are, at least, not wrongheaded.
So, we watched this thing unfold. We saw a disaster that has been totally predicted and modeled and simulated, probably more than any disaster has been in history.
We saw what appeared to be unexplained long delays in things getting done, while news people and others were able to just literally waltz in there and go to work ….. we saw very long response times in situations that desperately needed short ones. In some cases, these were responses to things that could have been, should have been, and in some cases WERE … anticipated and planned for.
So ….. two questions:
1) How would you rate the overall government response here?
2) In those cases where it was inadequate …. why was it?
Anderson
Guys & gals, let’s just cut & paste into this thread one of those 130-comment threads from an earlier post, and save ourselves effort & frustration.
If Mr. Cole thinks that the feds were powerless to emergency-rush water & food to the stranded multitudes before the end of the week, nothing that anyone says here will change his mind.
hadenoughofthisyet
I want an independant investigation. I want people to be held accountable. I don’t care who it is — local, state, or federal — I just want accountability.
I don’t want this in a few months. I want it to start within weeks.
I have children. I live in an area ripe for an attack or natural disaster.
Just give me a truly independant investigation. Not a Senate investigation, not an investigation by Bush himself. Independant.
John Cole
You people are unbelievable. I just gave you a bunch of facts, links, and actually proof that certain aspects are being overblown and or misreported, and your response is to ignore every god damn thing I have said and assert that I somehow think the feds were powerless.
Un-fucking-believable.
John Cole
Wow. You missed the whole point of this post. it certainly looks inadequate, but I am going to wait until we actually, you know, know things before making an all-out declaration.
Which is precisely why this shuold be looked into in the future. You don’t know, Andrew Sullivan doesn;t know, and I don’t know.
docG
Well, I have calmed down. One serious, non-snarky question. Just what entity should investigate the planning, funding, and execution of the emergency response issues and the New Orleans and Mississippi River delta flood prevention activities?
Congress will be loath to shine any light on their budgetary decisions, as they may have impacted this disaster. Any Administration would have an extreme reluctance to make itself look bad, if executive branch agencies should have failed in their duties. State and local entities will suffer from the same types of biases.
I have no expertise at all, but the only response I can come up with is to have a non-politician panel of relevant experts investigate this situation. Better ideas, anyone?
ppGaz
Uh…. I stipulated to your facts, and allowed that your conclusions were not wrongheaded.
You lost me there somewhere. I simply am curious as to what you think the answers are to my two questions.
Here, I’ll even sign this affidavit that I will accept your response without comment:
I,_____ppGaz___________, to hereby swear and affirm like I said, etc.
?
John Cole
ppGaz- I was responding to Anderson. I responded to you next. I agree, it certainly felt like it took forever to get aide to people, but we don;t really know why. We should.
hadenoughofthisyet
John, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. But it is difficult when your source for facts is a poster from Red State who called Walmart.
If Walmart releases a statement okay. A telephone call from a poster at Red State is pushing it for me.
ppGaz
( sounds of muffled speech, tape over mouth )
John Cole
It is a telephone call from Wal-Mart, complete with a phone number you yourself can dcall to verify. Call it. Ask yourself.
What do you have to lose?
docG
Never mind. I couldn’t type fast enough to avoid the pissing contest eruption.
Ned Raggett
Hmm.
hadenoughofthisyet
I think I will wait for an independant investigation, thanks. Again, not trying to push any buttons here.
John Cole
I disagree. I am sick and tired of Congress appointing thees unaccountable ‘bi-partisan’ whitewash commissions because they don’t have the balls to deal with facts or tough decisions(see BRACC.
Congress should be responsible for their own investigation, irrespective of what the executive branch does. It is why we pay the lazy, gutless bastards. You know- checks and balances?
John Cole
Cue the Hallelujah Chorus!
Fine. Sounds like the whole point of this post.
Anderson
I just gave you a bunch of facts, links, and actually proof that certain aspects are being overblown and or misreported, and your response is to ignore every god damn thing I have said and assert that I somehow think the feds were powerless.
This is just part of the fundamental disconnect that has made BJ a disgruntled place lately. Sure, you rattled off some misinfo. Cool.
But trivial.
The angry people, like me, are focused on the big picture: why the fuck were thousands of Americans left in pathetic distress for days, when a concerted federal effort could & should’ve been made to alleviate their misery?
Rightly or wrongly, Mr. Cole, your attention on the details has left the impression that you don’t care about the big picture. Rightly or wrongly, I emphasize. But I didn’t give a huge damn about the Bataan, or the 3 Wal-Mart trucks, so finding out that they may’ve been exaggerated (& where was water MORE needed than the Dome/CC, I wonder?) isn’t really rocking my world.
What IS rocking my world is the gross indifference of the President of the United States to the suffering of American citizens. I cannot believe that President Cole, for instance, would’ve seen those pictures on Tuesday without exploding into action to get those people food & water within hours, damn the expense and trouble.
John Cole
Thanks, Ned- added.
Stormy70
Why would he dispatch people into the path of a Category 4-5 storm? So they could be in the same situation as everyone else? You have to have your key assets out of the path of the storm, then move them into place after the storm has passed.
I live in Tornado land, and I now have a disaster kit ready. Also, jugs for water, bleach and extra cat food for the felines.
Ned Raggett
You’re welcome. Just something else to keep in mind!
ppGaz
(schmirglefabuttsgrndl)
Jim Caputo
I’d rather figure this out for myself rather than let the people who fucked the whole thing up investigate themselves and try to sell us some bullshit version of events and cries of “we’re not to blame.”
Anyway, here’s another FEMA fuckup story:
SomeCallMeTim
John, recall that this Administration threatened to fire the head actuary (IIRC) of HCFA if he disclosed accurate cost estimates for the drug benefit legislation to Congress. That happens to be the example of the blatant lying and intimidation by this Administration that comes to mind, but the other examples are legion. No sane person who has not committed himself to the Administration forevermore would ever take its testimony about anything as the truth.
Jim Caputo
On second thought, it’s probably not a FEMA fuckup, it’s probably a “photo-ops are more important than feeding these people” fuckup.
Frank
Someone upthread asked who should investigate this. I think the liberal blogosphere is doing a fine job, but if we need to have an official government investigation we should ask for the Dutch to do it.
John Cole
OK- Even though you have been here a while, I have no idea what that meant.
There are a lot of things I wuold have done differently. I would have militarized the whole damn place, and I would make FEMA a branch of the military (more accurately, delegate FEMA’s responsibilities to the military) drawing from all 5 service branches and stationed together year-round. I would have it be at least 20k strong, capable of functioning independently, with their own assets.
But that is a long term approach.
Andrei
I’m sorry, but I think that misses the mark.
When the death toll comes in, and let’s presume the 10,000 predicted number is on target, I think a more realistic question that needs to be answered is: How many of those 10,000 could have been saved had the various people in government — local, state and federal — acted more competently once the levee broke?
That’s the only real relevant question in my mind, because if only 100 of 10,000 people died in this storm out any government negligence then the whole thing is moot. Mother nature just whacked us good and that’s just the way it is, and we on the left-leaning side need to suck it up. But if a large percentage — and I admit I don’t know what that percentage would be — died due to government failures to manage the crisis once it started unfolding… well… that’s an entirely different problem, don’t you think?
In other words, even knowing that FEMA redirected a truck to some other location is not a sufficient enough answer. We have to know that it was a good decision in the scope of who it saved because it’s clear from Broussard’s plea on television where the truck was going was to place where people did need water before it got turned away.
So… while I agree that a desire to find the facts is entirely required, I also don’t want to lose sight that in that exercise, the larger question of competence needs to be addressed — that facts are not sufficient — because many of us saw with our own eyes what apperared to be incompetence come Thursday night when people were still surviving in what looked like a war torn , ravaged third world country near the Convention Center in downtown New Orleans.
Anderson
Great, Stormy. You’re smart. Let’s abolish all disaster relief, so that only the smart people survive, and damn if our great-grandchildren won’t all be solving differential equations in the crib.
I’m sure someone’s linked it previously, but Greg Djerijian’s response to Katrina seems a lot more worthy of respect:
That, far better than anything I’ve written, captures the nauseating aspect of this snafu.
Dwelling on refuting arguments of the quality of “Bush wanted the city to drown so that he could kill off Dem voters” displays a weird indifference to the central issues.
rafael
Well, it certainly is reasonable to wait until we have more information. On the other hand, in the past five years, it has been pretty safe to bet on this administration taking the lowest road, being as incompetent as humanly possible and lying even when they don’t need to, just as a reflex. Hell, if Bush said the sky was blue, I’d start doubting it.
ppGaz
The sound of me trying to talk with self-imposed tape over my mouth.
It means, I agree with the cited comment.
Anderson
Gesundheit?
Ben
Stormy = the demon spawn of Darrell and Paris Hilton
Mike S
Hard to believe water was needed anywhere more than it was needed at either the convention center or the Super Dome.
But I also posted an article form the Strib in the other thread. I’ll repost it here since this one os more relavent.
Now I am sure that some stories will turn out to be false, and others will be spun away. That’s the nature of disasters. But I watched just like the rest of you and that was a horrible display of both leadership and management. Bitch at me all you want but when I am seeing pictures on my tv screen juxtiposing people dying with the President eating cake, I am embarrassed. So many on the right despise Clinton but when he was in a similar position, he called off his vacations and was in DC to make sure things went right. And when he went to the affected areas, he wasn’t talking about rebuilding some Senator’s home, one of many I am sure.
I don’t think you are an appologist or spinner John and probably are just looking to stop the maddness and bring some perspective to the situation. But in the coming months we are going to be seeing bodies upon bodies brought out of the wreckage. And there is no doubt that a better response would have saved some of those lives.
The only fast response has been from the White House when they saw that they were politically damaged by this. And that was the tpical blame shifting and photo ops. And they took 50 firemen trained in rescue to make sure those photo ops looked pretty.
Anderson
Come now, comparing anyone to Paris Hilton is gratuitously degrading. I wouldn’t compare her identical twin to her.
Bob
To say that the levees probably would not have withstood the storm anyway is NO FUCKING ANSWER. There is no way to know. What we do know is that by cutting funds to the levee reconstruction the levees DIDN’T hold. Maybe ten thousand are dead. So, please, maybe you’ve convinced yourself but no one else outside the Bush Cult is drinking the koolaid.
After 9/11 what has the Office of Homeland Security done to coordinate emergency communications? Wasn’t that the big problem in the rescue attempts in and around WTC?
Look, if you want to lay the blame to everyone from President Johnson on, go ahead, it won’t do any good. If it would take twenty years to fix the levees with a billion dollars, how long will it take at three million a year?
It’s the philosophy of the ass clowns who are running this country. The purpose of government is to enrich you and your buddies, not to provide for the common good. And then you drown the baby in the bathtub. When you worship at the church of Grover Norquist, lots of folks drown.
John Cole
Hi! My name is Bob and I am impervious to facts!
Blue Neponset
I think everyone agrees that thousands of people along the Gulf Coast are now dead.
If you can’t get outraged by that you need to try harder.
Mike S
Back off Stormy. She can be a pain in the ass but is a good egg all the same.
boo
If you can bear the source, this is a disturbing first-person account by two EMS techs from San Francisco who were stranded while attending a conference in NO. If nothing else, it calls into question the priorities of our current “emergency management” system.
Anderson
To say that the levees probably would not have withstood the storm anyway is NO FUCKING ANSWER. There is no way to know. What we do know is that by cutting funds to the levee reconstruction the levees DIDN’T hold. Maybe ten thousand are dead. So, please, maybe you’ve convinced yourself but no one else outside the Bush Cult is drinking the koolaid.
You know, on the levee thing, that’s where I hold the state/city MOST responsible.
They should’ve been fighting tooth & nail for every $ until those levees were ready to withstand the fucking H-bomb, much less a Category 5. Every year that they didn’t get the $$$, they should’ve been going on TV saying “N.O. is going to drown because Washington doesn’t give a shit.”
They did not do these things. If the locals don’t squeak loudly & long, they don’t get the grease.
So while I’m not letting the feds off the hook here either, this is a particularly poor “blame Bush” angle.
Stormy70
What are you talking about? I was paying attention to the press conference Gen. Honore gave to the media yesterday, where he said you do not position your assets in the path of the storm. Why do you think an evacuation order was given to people in the path of this monster? They needed to get out of it’s way. Anyone who trusts the government to respond better than private individuals is deluding themselves. I have not defended FEMA, but I have defended Bush and the Military response against the hyper Bush bashing that never ends on this board.
I would not trust my safety to any government because they are overblown bureaucracies that crumple under their own weight. I see where Hillary wants FEMA to come out from under the HMS, now. Tell me, why did the Democrats want it put there to begin with? So it had to have more red tape to go through?
John Cole
.
I blame Bush for this outrageous hurricane.
Ben
Mike S,
A week ago I would have agreed about Stormy… however, the confederate flag sticker hanging from the gun rack in her pickup is starting to peel back.
slide
John Cole:
Oh, with the tons of stories coming out I am sure some are not accurate. As a matter of fact would you like to correct some of YOUR inaccurate stories? Do you remember when you prominently displayed the article from the Washington Post that said:
Now a number of us corrected you and demonstrated that it took all of 2 seconds on google to disporove this nonsense by showing that the governor signed the State of Emergency on Friday, August 26, days before the hurricane even hit. Guess you didn’t have that 2 seconds to check it out. Was YOUR fact checker on vacation John?
but wait, you had a comeback, a laughable one, but a comeback, you then answered us all:
which was of course hogwash as the Washington Post demonstrated by running a retraction later that very same day.
Now this was an intentional and orchestrated lie by the white house wasn’t it? Either that or they are so incompetent that they didn’t even know a State of Emergency was issued? Which was it? Newsweek ran a similar story saying the same thing. Coinicidence ya think? But the adminstration knows all too well that the Bush apologists will run with the disinformation just like you predictably did, and the false story is out there. You know the routine don’t you? BTW John, did you feel used?
Now I haven’t read all of your posts so I’m not sure when you corrected the disinformation that you put out. Can you point me to your post where you corrected the record after you learned it was not true?
What is that old saying about living in glass houses?
Now John I haven’t read all of your posts so I’m not sure if you ran a retraction. Did you? And if you didn’t why not?
DougJ
Thank you, John. I was beginninig to wonder about you the past few days, that maybe Michael Brown had had you killed and replaced by a FEMA PR person, but it seems now that you are back.
Actually, though, I’d like to ask: was that you running this blog over the weekend or did you go on vacation and allow one of the people Michael Brown hired to “convey a positive image of disaster operations to government officials, community organizations and the general public” to run the blog?
It’s okay if you did. You had no way of knowing how bad the Brown-bot would be.
Demdude
Back off Stormy. She can be a pain in the ass but is a good egg all the same.
================================================
Comments by her are free of obscenites. They also do not contain insults for anyone not agreeing with her.
Let’s be nice to the nice.
ppGaz
Completely inapt comparison, as I’d expect from you.
A tornado is over in minutes.
In New Orleans, people watched their houses fill up with water in a matter of a short time; there was nowhere to flee to.
People were sent to “collection points” where they arrived by the thousands, to find no facilities or resources whatever …. for days.
Tornado? You might as well be talking about a cloudy day, by comparison to Katrina and New Orleans.
Anderson
What are you talking about?
Talking about this:
I live in Tornado land, and I now have a disaster kit ready. Also, jugs for water, bleach and extra cat food for the felines.
While you may not’ve meant it as such, it’s quite close to the “dumb bastards should’ve had a week’s supply of food & water in their homes” meme that I’ve seen.
Anyway, the “path of the storm” thing is a straw man. Who said anything about in the path? Have the assets *outside* the path but ready to move in ASAP. We could’ve had a substantial presence in the city by Tuesday night, *had the President really given a shit.*
Which, obviously & irrebuttably, he did not. Because a President who gave a shit would’ve been scaring the hell out of everyone he could call, making it clear that heads were about to roll if results didn’t start happening.
Leaving aside, of course, that the FEMA/military disconnect that you’ve suggested, is a red herring too. ANY serious plan would’ve coordinated military involvement at the ground level.
But there was no serious plan. Just like everything else this fucking administration has done. Go read Greg D.’s post that I linked above, b/c I think that’s his gripe too. We are being ruled by improvising idiots.
Mike S
Did the D’s call for FEMA to be put into HMS? I am unaware of that.
But FEMA did a pretty good job after Clinton overhauled it, brought in someone who had actual experiance in disasters and funded it. Of course now that Norquist’s idea of starving government so we can drown it in a bath tub has been effective, the calls to privatise it will be legion I am sure.
Andrei
“Mother nature just whacked us good and that’s just the way it is, and we on the left-leaning side need to suck it up.”
By the way… to clarify… I should note there are still large questions about what we as a country need to do about the poor and their contigency plans to get them out of harms way regardless of the factual outcome of any inqiuiry. I think it’s obvious that we don’t plan enough for many people to get out of harm’s way and that alone is probably the single most significant factor in the death tolll from this disaster.
Ancient Purple
Unfortunately, I am not willing to accept something as vague as “in the future.” We need to demand the beginnings of an independent investigation on or by a specific date on the calendar. Saying “in the future” allows way too much wiggle room.
Anderson
Of course now that Norquist’s idea of starving government so we can drown it in a bath tub has been effective, the calls to privatise it will be legion I am sure.
Sure, offer Halliburton $10K for every person rescued.
Stormy70
Thank you, Mike.
Some pundit said FEMA performed better as a seperate agaency, and it may be better off split from Homeland Security. If it is said on TV, it has to be true, right? ;)
Also, FEMA is not a first responder. The state and local are supposed to handle the situation for a few days, until it can get in there. Is this wrong?
slide
Now on to your levee nonsense. The levees as you say were built to withstand a CAT 3 hurricane. There are miles and miles of levees. Let me repeat there are miles upon miles of levees. And of those miles and miles of levees built for Cat 3 hurricanes, it was only breeched in two places and only for a distance of about 200 feet. What does that say? Well, it says to me that miles and miles of Cat 3 levees held even in the face of a Cat 4 storm. So for you to say that even if the levees were strenghtened as the Army Corp of Engineers had asked for they could never have withstood a Cat 4 hurricane is just speculation. A gamble that may have cost 10,000 lives.
Stormy70
Really? Find the comment to support this assessment, please. Or do you brand people you disagree with a racist? Just curious.
Ben
Stormy,
You keep saying “FEMA is not a first responder. The state and local are supposed to handle the situation for a few days, until it can get in there. Is this wrong?”
It is certainly irrelevant. You have made some of the most callous and obtuse statements over the last couple of days… it obvious you don’t get the enormity of what has happened. Litttle anecdotes about jugs of water for the kitties in case of a tornado are cute, but they are merely anecdotes. If a tornado screwed your residence up, you could walk down the road 1/2 mile for help. There is no comparison.
The thought Bush heading up an inquiry into the Katrina mess is laughable… kind of like Bill Clinton offering to get to the bottom of stain on that woman, miss Lewinsky’s, dress.
Blue Neponset
WTF?
ppGaz
Mike’s sentiment is not univerally shared.
I thought the rule was, if you said it, it must be true?
Mike S
It was a seperate entity before and worked quite well when retooled by Clinton. The Daily Howler has a pretty good rundown of ho it worked then.
FEMA also used to be involved in both prep and relief. That is no longer the case.
DougJ
You’re doing a heck of a job, Stormy.
Ben
Stormy,
You missed the snark in my confederate flag comment… I will use a smiley face or wink next time as to not offend.
Stormy70
I should have said it was off-topic and I meant as an illustration that I know I can’t count on government to help me quickly if something were to occur. I have been through the OKC tornadoes, and did not get hit, thank God. Still, I never compiled a disaster kit, but after events of this week, I am now prepared to survive alone for at least a week. I don’t blame people for not evacuating out of New Orleans, most are too poor and elderly to get out without help. Some of you may be confusing my comments for Darrell’s, so I suggest you read back through the threads.
Jon H
john writes: “You people are unbelievable. I just gave you a bunch of facts, links, and actually proof that certain aspects are being overblown and or misreported, and your response is to ignore every god damn thing I have said and assert that I somehow think the feds were powerless”
Proof? Like Was’ sheer fantasy talk that, surely, the diesel was put to good use by FEMA. Why, they couldn’t *fail* could they?
Today on the radio they were talking to people in, I believe, Pass Christian, Miss., a coastal town that was covered by a 30′ storm surge. The only person they’ve seen from FEMA yet just came by while they were recording. He wasn’t supposed to be there, he was just lost and stopped to check his map.
Jon H
Anyone else think it’s remarkable how many investigations have been held into Bush administration fecklessness in the face of major disasters – 9/11, Iraq, now there’ll be one for Katrina.
At this rate, two per term, we can expect one more major f**k up by Bush and the rest of the incompetents.
DougJ
I bet that friend of Broussard’s mother didn’t die either. Her life was just reallocated.
ppGaz
Wanna thank you for your service.
ppGaz
It wouldn’t cost you anything to toss a frown at Darrell once in a while, to reduce the confusion.
John Cole
Slide-
That is what I thought they meant by it, as I was fully aware that the Declaration had been made the previous Saturday. I had no idea a reporter wouldn’t. It made no sense.
And yes, I corrected it. Not that that would get in the way of your accusation that I hadn’t.
You just REALLYU, REALLY want this to be true, don’t you.
IN addition to the reams of stuff I have posted with links that ytou simply refuse to accept, here is something from private correspondence:
From another email:
Again, the cuts had nothing to do with this. I wish 20 years ago they had started to build Cat 5 protection, but they didn’t.
I have provided you with plenty of links, oinformation quotes from officals in the know, and quotes from individuals from the region.
You have provided only your firm desire to fling cadavers at this administration.
DougJ
Colie, you’re doing a heck of a job.
I hope you’re getting some money from FEMA for this.
Stormy70
Oh, I get the magnitude of it. I will be at the shelter again tomorrow to help out, and will continue to do it long term as long as it takes to help them out. Our church just furnished 60 apartments through donations in one weekend, and our church will begin moving people into them ASAP. This is happening all over the DFW, and Reunion arena has had the evacuee population go down because the local churches and families are finding them better places to live. Remember, Texas has 250,000 evacuees alone. I recognize the magnitude.
Anderson
I don’t think FEMA is a 1st responder, they’re supposed to *coordinate* the response, including 1st responders at state/local levels.
The idea being “let us bring our institutional expertise at disaster relief to you, so that we can help you devise a plan that integrates gov’t levels, civilian/military response, etc.”
If we don’t have an agency that does that, 4 years after 9/11, why the hell not?
As DHS said on its website:
CaseyL
I don’t object to an investigation per se.
What I object to is the Bush Administration’s proven MO when dealing with investigations.
The Bush Admin has used pending investigations as an excuse to not answer any questions about the subject being investigated. That’s unacceptable.
Such questions need to be asked now, and answered now, long before an investigation is convened, much less before one wraps up and presents its findings. Another disaster isn’t going to wait around for the hearings – like AQ wasn’t going to wait around until Condi Rice had her anti-terrorism “process” all nicely figured out and implemented. I think we can agree the response to Hurricane Katrina was awful. We need to fix it before another disaster, not when it’s politically convenient to do so. Most of the people who should be named to be on an investigating committee will be the same ones needed to address and correct the failures right now.
The Bush Admin has dealt with previous investigations into its policies and actions with court action to stop the investigation from happening; foot-dragging, stonewalling, attempting to load the investigatory committees with “friendlies”; slapping “Classified” status on essential records and withholding them from the investigators; permanently tabling the half of the Senate investigation into the Iraq War that would have focused on the Bush Administration’s (mis)use of intelligence; and ignoring the results altogether.
That doesn’t include any calls for investigation that never even made it to a Committee.
So, yeah, let’s see how investigations into the response to Hurricane Katrina shake down.
Who will the investigators be? Who will name them? What will their qualifications be?
What access will they have to records and witnesses? Will they be able to compel testimony? Will they be able to compel discovery?
Will witnesses be subject to reprisal for testifying? Will they suddenly be re-assigned to distant posts to keep them from appearing before the investigating committee? Will their actions during Hurricane Katrina be retroactively declared “classified for national security reasons” so they can’t testify?
How much time will the investigators have? Will the investigation have an arbitrary, built-in deadline so that it can die prematurely of stonewalling?
What kind of funding will they have? Will the funding be subject to political control; i.e., can the investigation be hampered by refusing to release the funds for it?
Will the hearings, and the results, be made public? Will the investigation be bifurcated, say between local response and Federal response, and the part potentially injurious to the Bush Administration postponed indefinitely?
And then, after a constrained, delayed, stonewalled, redacted, investigation is done, and its results either not made public or so redacted they might as well not be made public, will the Bush Administration will again announce it has been “vindicated,” and will the entire subject filed away and forgotten as “Old News”? Will the public be told that the investigation has answered everyone’s questions, so don’t ask any anymore?
We’ve seen the tricks the Bush Administration and its Congressional allies have played to protect it from investigation. I have no doubt those tricks will be used again. We’ll recognize them when we see them.
Anderson
And speaking of investigations, I just remembered today that Bush wouldn’t face the 9/11 Comm’n without having Cheney along.
Does that still blow anyone else’s mind? That our President is such a pussy, he can’t even answer some questions from a bipartisan panel without someone there to hold his hand? Like, did that really happen?
Stormy70
I thought I did that today when I refuted his statement about them all being destitute. I said they are not. After that, why get into the thick of the Darrell Plame Wars. That way lies madness.
DougJ
Stormy, good for you, helping out at the shelter. I think I speak for everyone here when I say I really respect that. That’s one thing we can all agree is a good thing to do, regardless of whatever else we might think about anything else.
Eural
First off – thanks John for the links to the facts as they come to light. I personally don’t think it really matters exactly what happened where, when, etc. Here’s why. We’ve now experienced three major events which have produced thousands of casulties and created untold economic and humanitarian suffering not only in our country but in the world (9/11, the Iraq war and Katrina). All three cases were predicted and warned of in advance and in all three cases the Bush administration failed to act in a timely or effective manner. That is a level of incompetence that cannot be tolerated. Yes, the spin machine will go into overdrive and yes, die-hard Bush supporters will – again – find a way to exonerate their hero (at least in their minds). But three times? There’s a pattern here that belies all of the “facts” which constantly lay the blame elsewhere. Bush is touted as the can-do president who talks straight and gets things done – unless there is a catastrophic screw-up and then suddenly its everyone else’s fault and he couldn’t possibly have done anything. As the saying goes, fool me once….And as I said before, thinking, compassionate, patriotic conservatives should be the first in line asking for his head for the damage he is doing to our once great nation.
Charlie (Colorado)
Why it might have been slow.
Charlie (Colorado)
Goddamnit. Let’s try again: Read jason on why things were slow.
Anderson
And as I said before, thinking, compassionate, patriotic conservatives should be the first in line asking for his head for the damage he is doing to our once great nation.
So you would think. “Fiat Bush, pereat mundi” seems to be their creed, however. (Present company excluded of course.)
Mike S
I got a lot of crap here by my side of the fence for aking people to back off and stop playing political football. I think that was Tuesday night. But then I saw the spinning on FOX, the right blogs saying things like NO owes President Bush a debt of gratitude and heard the blatant lies on the talk radio wing of the GOP and knew that voices had to be raised full blast or we would see one more white wash.
NewsMax ran a collumn about how CNN had tried to make Barbour complain about Bush. The thing was that Barbour was lying outright, but Limbaucker said they should have “agreed to disagree.” That is how the GOP message machine has been playing for years. Lie, lie and then lie saying that the left is lying. This time I refuse to let people off the hook.
I can’t do a thing about Nagin, Blanco or anyone else in state govt’s down there. But I will be damned if I let any fed officials off the hook. I hope Blanco is voted out, as well as Nagin and Barbour. But I am in no position to do that. I can only hold elected officials who are accountable to me accountable.
ghostcat
Hope ya’ll be happy when Congress gives the President the authority to unilaterally control the response to any “domestic emergency”. That’s where this is all headed ya know.
slide
The point I was making about the Washington Post story is that inaccurate information gets put out there. On both sides. I don’t for a minute think that you put it out there knowing it was incorrect. In other words I don’t belive your motivations should be questioned. Nor should the motivations of those you disagree with on this issue be questioned.
As far as the levee situation, I really don’t see that being talked about all that much at this time. The federal response, the incompetence of FEMA, the lack of credentials of Michael Brown and his cohorts at FEMA, the defunding of FEMA, the Presidents absolute lack of leaderhsip, etc etc is what I am reading about in the left wing blogs.
I’m not an engineer and I don’t think you are either. Why don’t we wait, like you have said, to see what the inevitable hearings and investigations bring.
Oh, and btw, funny you didn’t mention on that same Hardball show, Senator Breaux said “of course we could have built levees strong enough withstand the storm we had”. Weren’t you the one that railed against presenting selective information. Just presenting what the Republican had to say and not the Democrat (very conservative Democrat) was selective to say the least.
Anderson
Barbour voted out? God, man, it’s like he’s Giuliani in people’s eyes down here. I’m starting to wonder if he’ll run for the White House if the Bush camp implodes.
ppGaz
Missed it.
ppGaz
‘Preciate his service.
Stormy70
This would cause some serious heartache across both the Left and Right. No branch should have that much power! It would be a true constitutional crises.
Ok, Good night. Prison Break is on deck.
DougJ
That doesn’t sound like such a bad idea to me. If it will help save lives, I’m for it.
Tractarian
Right, we’ve heard that one before. FEMA’s disaster recovery would have been a lot better had there not been, you know, a disaster. That’s ludicrous.
Everyone has something to answer for in this debacle. Nagin for leaving those buses unused, Blanco for waiting too long on the evac order, FEMA for failing to deliver supplies to the stranded and sick, Bush for his general lack of leadership and accountability.
But I fear that in the weeks to come, the body count will rise steadily and people will realize that the levee failures were equivalent to a small WMD attack – by that point there was nothing any one official could do to prevent mass casualties. At this point, the Feds should have realized that the city and state governments were no longer the rescuers – they were the ones in need of rescuing.
This sad truth might alleviate the political heat on Nagin and Blanco but it will cause FEMA’s sluggish and impotent response to appear all the more shameful.
The heads of Brown and Chertoff should obviously roll, but they won’t, because in the Bush administration you can’t get fired for incompetence, you can only get fired for insubordination.
ghostcat
Bush has rather craftily orchestrated a consolidation of Executive power for the first time since Vietnam/Watergate. It’s part of his core agenda, and political observers who should know better have’t even noticed. Watch him.
Tractarian
Everyone does realize that FEMA already has this authority, right? The same FEMA that, as part of the executive branch, is controlled by the President?
slide
.
CaseyL
It’s a kind of genius, isn’t it? A consolidation of Executive Power that serves no purpose beyond quasi-monarchial privilege. Power entirely for its own sake.
And people have noticed, ghostcat. But the only ones in a position to do anything about it – like, f’rinstance, insist on maintaining Constitutional checks and balances – have instead abdicated in its favor.
bryan
It sure looks like there is plenty of damning enough evidence without all this speculation.
It sure does *look* that way, especially since the AP story is about as carefully crafted a character assassination attempt as I’ve seen in a long time. I blogged about it here.
DougJ
Bryie, you’re doing a heck of a job.
DougJ
Might I also note here that the memo was leaked by a higher up at FEMA, who is most likely a Republican also. Believe me, there are plenty of us who are just as mad about it as a lot you Democrats are. Don’t think of this as a partisan issue. It’s not.
bryan
Slide, why are you quoting polls from May? This is september, dude (ette): after Katrina.
slide
How is Bush doing? From SurveyUSA:
Q Thinking just about the President of the United States … Do you approve or disapprove of President Bush’s response to Hurricane Katrina?
Date Approval Disapprove
8/31 48% 39% +9
9/01 46% 44% +2
9/02 40% 53% -13
9/03 41% 53% -12
9/04 38% 55% -17
9/06 38% 54% -16
bryan
It’s interesting that slide’s Bush poll numbers seem to track with the time the media started banging on the “too little too late” drum. Until Aug. 31 – 2 days after the hurricane struck, bush was actually gaining approval. Of course, the spin cycle hadn’t started working until after that.
slide
Got any more recent polls? Especially ones that would justify this:
.
slide
Bryan:
Lol.. errr.. yeah, that must be it.
capelza
Honestly..I skipped most of the posts..I do have to say that I had already read the post from Red State, the comments that followed blew a few holes in the authors points. Though if that has changed since earlier today, I’ll take that back.
As for all the rest…I saw Brown of Fema on TV today, Olbermann?, from an interview before the levees broke. Two interesting things he said. One, “the assets are in place” and secondly, “the evacuation went very well”.
If any of this has already been discussed, I’m sorry, just a bit tired.
Darrell
Stormy, I hate to break in here with criticism of you first, but can you be honest enough to admit that I NEVER SAID NOR IMPLIED that all, or even most were destitute. You owe me an apology for this false accusation , no? Show me where I said it, or take it back and apologize, fair enough?
nyrev
Agreed.
Jim Caputo
Did Sharon Weber say where the trucks were sent? As far as I know, there were only two places in NO where there were thousands of people without water. So where did FEMA send them? I’ll bet you can’t get a straight and truthful answer from Ms. Weber on that.
Jim Caputo
I just found this article tonight. Here are some highlights:
What the hell is Ted Stevens talking about? Is he saying New Orleans is twice the size of Europe?
Jim Caputo
Okay, if this is true, I just don’t know what to say…
“FEMA accused of flying evacuees to wrong Charleston”
bryan
Slide said: Got any more recent polls? Especially ones that would justify this:
No, but I’m not enough of an ass to use three month old polls to disprove the point, either.
Slide said: Lol.. errr.. yeah, that must be it.
Do you have a better explanation for the dive in the poll numbers other than the incredible amount of negative stories coming out of New Orleans about the response times? I don’t. It’s not like 90 percent of the rest of the country was doing their own independent reporting from the disaster zone.
Boronx
And it has been disproven, pretty definitively in my estimation,
Maybe you should re-read your own post, because you didn’t disprove squat. You have a quote from the Corps of Engineers, and another quote from an former official from an administration with an almost unbroken record of forcing those who go off message to recant. Even so, he evades the question, which was a doozy. It’s the first time I’ve heard suggested that the levees were slated for Cat 5 improvements.
Now, maybe there’s a good take down of this story floating around out there, but yours aint it, and I find it very telling that you would try to put it forward as one.
slide
It’s not? I think he meant the entire size of the devastation, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. The Republicans tend to exaggerate a little. Ok. a lot. And they don’t travel very much to Europe.
capelza
Ted Stevens is in his dotage. It is especially funny that he comes from Alaska of all places, he should know size.
ppGaz
The gap between what politicians say, and what they do. What they say, and what reality is. People hold the news media in lower regard than even politicians, they are not swayed like a bunch of sheep by “negative” reports. They listen to what the suits say, and the observe what they see happening.
That’s why the Katrina response approval numbers are low, and it’s also why the Iraq war approval numbers are low.
People are not as stupid as some of you would like them to be.
slide
Bryan incredibly said this :
Do you guys live in any kind of reality? Are you all fuckin idiot robots? People are not as stupid as you wish we all were. We can see for our own eyes what is going on. And if you are happy about the president’s response then you have very very low expectations. I’m not even going to argue the point with you. Katrin’a response? It’s the media’s fault! Yellowcake Lies? Its Joe Wilson’s wife’s fault! WMD’s in Iraq? Its the CIA’s fault. Torture? Its the midnight crew at Abu Garib’s fault! Record Deficits? Its the fault of 911!
The era of personal responsibility.
DougJ
No one’s disputing that’s why Bush’s approval ratings are down. Heck, I’m not sure I’d say that I approve of the way he’s handling things right now, and I’d happily vote him in for third, fourth, and fifth terms if I could. I think he’s probably our best president since Lincoln, overall. But he’s fallen down on the job here.
I don’t know if you’ve got any friends or relatives who have problems with alcohol or can’t get off their butts to look for a job, but I sure do (more than I care to admit). And I don’t think I’m helping them if I try to blame their problems on somebody else or tell them “You’re doing a a heck of a job.” I think I help them by giving them a swift kick in the ass. And that’s what FEMA, DHS, and maybe the whole White House needs right now.
John S.
It’s nice how intellectial discourse proceeds without Darrell around to muck things up…
Too late.
Oh, and as a point of curiousity, the comment by his majesty that sparked off a shitstorm in another thread:
I suppose technically, “good percentage” isn’t the same as “most”. That Darrell sure can parse with the best of ’em.
capelza
Just a last thing, this is very emotional for me. I, like a lot of people, have a missing friend down there, so I do get too wrapped up in it.
Whatever goes on in the blogs or with the talking heads or even in the Rove spin room, middle America is watching Oprah and it ain’t looking good for the Feds. She’s showing the bodies, and the inside of the Superdome.
I never realised that until I saw it on film, not only was it a hell on earth, but it was completely dark except for the spots of light from the holes in the ceiling. She is PISSED and I don’t know that any spin is going to work against that…just letting you know what the soccer moms, millions of them, are seeing and hearing. It started today and I believe she’ll be doing for a number of shows.
Mark Wilson
It makes me sad to read these comments from Bush-haters at this and other sites. It seems to me that these people are well along in the process of destroying their own souls because of their hatred. To be clear, every responsible person involved in responding to this disaster should be focused on what they can do now that’s positive. Every person that can volunteer should contact a coordinating organization and volunteer. Every person that can donate money to relief agencies should. And facts should be unearthed, followed up on and reported. Madly searching for a way to “throw cadavers” at George Bush is a waste of time. John Cole is offering a dose of reality — take it.
Mike S
Could it be the reason for all of those negative reports, as opposed to the reports themselves? This is what I love about the “librul media” meme, and what I was talking abut before re Barbour, worldnutdaily and lying.
Here is Limbaucker’s article.
So according to the GOP message machine, O’Brien should have “agreed to disagree” regardless of the fact that Barbour told a bald faced lie. Lie, lie and then claim the “librul media” is lying. That’s the GOP message machine to a T.
DougJ
It’s a little like saying “I’m in jail because of witness reports that I shot someone, not because I shot someone”.
rilkefan
Can’t be bothered to look up all the times I explained here why much of John‘s argument re the levees is a strawman, but one last time: we don’t get to choose the force of the hurricane, but we do get to choose where to allocate resources. Want to take a wait-and-see approach about whether the levees would have held under President Gore, or want to make up your mind one way or the other without the necessary degrees, fine – what matters here is that funds were diverted from a known disaster-in-waiting due to a) Republican small-govt philosophy b) NO’s unfortunate propensity for voting D c) Bush’s WMD delusions d) tax cuts for the top 1% e) Republican cronyocracy.
jobiuspublius
Priorities?
… while Rome burned
John S.
That must be some of that re-written Bible-on-the-fly stuff that Conservative Christians love so much…
I assure you, in a strictly Biblical sense George Bush has done more to destroy his soul than even the most fervent Bush-hater. Crack open a copy sometime and see for yourself.
ppGaz
Read It And Weep
DougJ
It’s not hatred, it’s tough love. At least from me. Maybe it’s hatred coming from ppgaz. T\
Mark Wilson
Regarding John S.’s comment:
1. I am not Christian.
2. I am not Conservative (or Liberal). I might be a classically liberal, mildly libertarian, somewhat progressive (Teddy Roosevelt style), socially somewhat liberal, conservative on national security, pro-capitalist, for surfacing and requiring internalization of economic externalities, pro-gay marriage, anti-death penalty, opposed to the criminalization of abortion, for embryonic stem cell research, opposed to eliminating the estate tax — well, I could on, but I’ll stop.
3. I have no doubt that I would disagree or agree with you on at least 50% of the political issues of our day.
4. I am O.K. with a world in which not everyone agrees with all of my political views (or social or religious views, etc.).
I remain sad.
jobiuspublius
What rilkefan said. Plus, I don’t understand why the focus on these same “memes”, but, no focus on the lies of Worst POTUS Ever and Friends who has much greater authority then those who are the focus of the top post.
bryan
Slide says: Do you guys live in any kind of reality? Are you all fuckin idiot robots? People are not as stupid as you wish we all were. We can see for our own eyes what is going on.
Just again to prove how little you realize you’re enveloped in a world of the media’s creation. Have you really seen with your own eyes? are you down in New Orleans, posting comments to Cole’s blog rather than pulling people out of the muck and mire? If not, then YOU HAVE NOT SEEN WITH YOUR OWN EYES. You have seen what the media wants to show you. I deal with this stuff for a living. Do you know how many media people are in New Orleans right now? At least four stories of one hotel that I know of. And do you think they are out there rescuing people? No. They’re out there getting those stories. And do you know what stories sell eyeballs, slide? Stories of conflict. Stories of human tragedy (those are also the stories that get pulitzer prizes, btw). It doesn’t serve the media to give you good stories about emergency management personnel who are doing their jobs and working extremely long shifts sifting through bodies to save people. That’s not a “librul media” meme. That’s a process *fact* of media storytelling.
How many stories have you seen from Miss. or Ala.? Paltry few compared to the numbers coming out of NO. Hell, you don’t even see stories from Plaquemines or the other parishes that were flooded just as severely as New Orleans. Why is that, Slide? Could it be because the media feeds on bodies? Like vultures in a story like this? And you’re seeing what they want you to see. Just like the foreign press shows bodies, and the U.S. press doesn’t. Every reporter out there has a side that he’s going to tell.
Not only that, but every reporter out there right now is relying on scant information that ordinarily wouldn’t make it through the editing process, especially the tv reporters. How many wild accusations are going to be perpetrated before people start saying “wait, are we sure we’re getting the whole truth here.”
YOU ARE NOT GETTING THE ENTIRE PICTURE! Hell, I’M NOT GETTING THE ENTIRE PICTURE. For you to suggest otherwise just shows how incredibly naive you are!
It’s a little like saying “I’m in jail because of witness reports that I shot someone, not because I shot someone”.
No, it’s more like one eyewitness who saw part of the entire story was called to testify while other eyewitnesses who had different stories were disqualified from testifying because that wasn’t what the prosecution wanted.
I’m not letting this administration or FEMA off scott free. But I’m not ready right now to start stringing people up, either, because we don’t know all the facts. And the fact that people who are so often so ready to dump on the media are now slurping up every report that comes out like it was God’s holy word is just about the most laughable thing I’ve seen in a long time.
ppGaz
DougJ, you’re doin a heckuva job. ‘Preciate your service.
;-)
ppGaz
You HAVE to be fucking kidding me. There is a general consensus out there of collossal government failure.
Are you going to stand there and suggest that it’s all just a creation of the media?
Christ, John, isn’t there some rule to keep out CRAZY PEOPLE from this place?
Steve
So let’s get this straight, from John Cole’s perspective.
There was no military presence in New Orleans or the rest of the damaged area for 4 days. But that’s because they were doing damage assessments, to try to first figure out if they were even needed.
I think I’m getting nauseous from the spin. Pardon me while I go puke.
jobiuspublius
Have we forgotten the fact that the WH was on vacation while Katrina wrecked havoc thru LA, MS, AL, and FL? Have we forgotten the performance of Worst POTUS Ever? It wasn’t just a failure to be a good thesbian. What about Jerktoff and Brownie? Has anybody noticed that the news is in the process of getting shut down again? Once again. I just don’t get it.
Ok, what’s the status of the blame game? Why isn’t MS catching heat for not evacuating and LA/NO is?
hadenoughofthisyet
Well, I’m sure the right wing radio hosts are assembling a “Truth Tour” for New Orleans as I type this.
Honestly, didn’t you know that there are no real problems -it’s just bad spin, unfair spin, all at the hands of that evil liberal media. Didn’t you know that General Electric, Viacom, News Corp., and Time Warner are leftists?
DougJ
So, Bryan, let me get this straight: you’re saying that not that many people died in New Orleans, it’s just that the media is showing us bodies to make it seem that way?
DougJ
Bryan, are you one of those who thinks the moon landing was fake?
You know, you’re really not helping. There’s only way out of this for president Bush: fire Brown, fire Chertoff, restore FEMA funding, give straight answers. Spin ain’t gonna cut it.
I have every faith that this is exacly what president Bush will do. The left underestimates him at every turn. When he’s cleaned house at FEMA, he’ll show the left what kind of a leader he really is, not the shell-shocked man he’s seemed like the past week.
But crazy spin doesn’t help him. It just makes us all look like whackos.
ppGaz
I was just sitting here, having a chuckle over the idea of news guys towing around this corpse and showing the same corpse over and over again in different locations …. just to bamboozle us …
But …. did y’all see Obermann tonight? He gave his occasional “Worst Person in the World” to Geraldo Rivera who, according to Keith, was caught “rescuing” the same woman more than one time and dragging her into medical triage so that his cameras could get the story from different angles. Apparently the doctor requested that he quit resucuing her.
So, let’s face it, there is the occasional Geraldo out there who is pathological. But, he’s not the rule, he’s the exception.
bryan
There is a general consensus out there of collossal government failure.
Are you going to stand there and suggest that it’s all just a creation of the media?
Yes, there’s be a lot of government failure – starting at the local and state levels BEFORE THE HURRICANE HIT!
I suggest you read more carefully before you hit the exasperation key, ppGaz. It’s not *all* a creation of the media, but the media definitely feeds the sense of frustration. 24/7 coverage does a lot of wonderful things in our world, but it does compress time to the extent that we expect everything instantly – including disaster relief on a grand scale.
As well, the entire Nagin/Blanco/Bush blame circle jerk is being almost wholly fanned by repeated media questions about a reported conflict.
Honestly, you people who expect the federal government’s disaster relief effort to be some sort of Magic Genie experience are just deluded.
And if you’re really interested in the issue of how much of an effect the media creates, you might want to read up on cultivation theory (http://www.tcw.utwente.nl/theorieenoverzicht/Theory%20clusters/Media,%20Culture%20and%20Society/Cultivation_Theory-1.doc/), gatekeeping theory (http://www.tcw.utwente.nl/theorieenoverzicht/Theory%20clusters/Media%2C%20Culture%20and%20Society/gatekeeping.doc/index.html), framing (http://www.valuebasedmanagement.net/methods_tversky_framing.html), and agenda-setting theory (http://www.tcw.utwente.nl/theorieenoverzicht/Theory%20clusters/Mass%20Media/Agenda-Setting_Theory.doc/).
Demdude
Speaking of shows tonight, The Daily Show with John Stewart was back. My favorite line:
As part of President Bush’s plan to help the disaster victims, he plans to build a billion dollar dam in Arkansas. It’s better to fight the water up there than in New Orleans.
bryan
I have a comment awaiting moderation with links about media effects theory for those of you who think I’m crazy for suggesting the media has anything to do with the way events are perceived, but DougJ asks the question about bodies. Well, I haven’t seen any bodies to speak of when I’ve been watching American TV. In fact, I heard one reporter (FOX or MSNBC) say they werent’ going to show bodies. Hmmm. Hate to bust your bubble, doug.
As for how many died? I have no idea. And neither do you. And neither does Mayor Nagin. That number will have to await a full accounting. It could be 10,000, it could be 2,000. How many died “waiting for rescue” in the three days after the levee breached? another question I don’t have an answer to.
But the difference between you and me is that some of you claim to already know the answers to these questions. That’s not science. That’s blind religion.
Harley
Well, the update at the end of the post is a start. Inaccurate criticism is inevitable in this. But all too often, folks cite it as part of a larger defense — lies, lies, it’s all lies!! — while keeping one’s head deeply in the ideological sand.
But yeah, you’re right. Why speculate when you’ve got stuff like this?
Big E
a minor tangent:
There must be around 60,000 plus command, control, rescue, medical and other kinds of personel in the gulf coast trying to deal with the disaster. All this is happening in America.
In Iraq, troop strength has varied from 120,000 to an anticipated 150,000 plus, for the upcoming vote on the constitution. Greater demands for command, control, as well as rebuilding, oil production and security, and of course, fighting a war.
If it takes 60,000+ to secure the gulf coast of America, how is it that so few are asked to secure the entire country of Iraq during a war?
Bush & Co. are big on responsibilty and accountability. They have failed, and it’s only now that the media is beginning to wake up.
scs
Hey ppgaz and you all, I want you all to look at this
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/national/nationalspecial/07chalmette.html in case you didn’t see my post in the other segment.
Something doesn’t match between this story and the first story from Brossard. I knew I was on to something.
jobiuspublius
Anderson
Well, I’m stuck in Miss. with him. The May numbers probably reflect the Medicaid crisis, which Barbour apparently intends to “solve” by letting lots of sick people die.
My impression reflects the recent media coverage & word of mouth.
Also, was it SurveyUSA that had Kerry barely losing in Miss.? Something is very wrong with the polling down here; I suspect Republicans assume pollsters are part of the Librul Media & hang up the phone.
ppGaz
Who are these people who “claim to know”? I don’t know anyone in that category.
I have no idea how many people died. But I do know that some of them died Friday while the president was posing in front of staged events and making chuckle-talk for the cameras, and telling “Brownie” what a great job he was doing, you know, just to impress all the viewers.
Anderson
Oh, and maybe I’m just falling asleep & misreading accordingly, but Barbour doesn’t lie to the journalist. Katrina WAS a category 1 in Florida. Barbour just conveniently omits to acknowledge that it became a category 5 in the Gulf. See, no actual “lie.”
He’s not a stupid man, tho he certainly hasn’t displayed much skill in handling the state legislature.
ppGaz
Sure you are. Keep working, I’m sure you’ll uncover the truth that reveals that we imagined the whole terrible thing last week. All a bad dream.
scs
ppgaz, was that directed at me or some other post?
PotVsKtl
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050903/ids_photos_india_wl/ra2838142191.jpg
rayabacus
John,
Looks like you’re beating your head against the wall. I think you would have better luck trying to teach physics to first graders.
These people are not only rabid, they are uninformed. For someone to say that there was no military presence in NO until four days after Katrina is the height of ignorance.
You know what they say about trying to reason with an unreasonable person. Don’t.
scs
Oh never mind, not mine
scs
Okay, well the main point is, is that I have almost pyschic powers and that I am NEVER wrong!
I’m sure you’d agree with that.
PotVsKtl
One person said that. It is incorrect. It doesn’t change the fact that everyone, from the bottom up, fucked up on this one. Try to argue the actual point.
jobiuspublius
DougJ
Scs, you’re right about this. You know that story he told about his friend whose mother died Friday night after no one came for four days?
Not true. She didn’t really die.
Her life was just reallocated.
DougJ
Sorry, Bry, misunderstood your post. You’re right — no bodies on t.v. but I have seen a lot in the paper.
scs
Dougj- okay sarcasm. Did you even read the story? The people in the home died DURING the flood, rescue efforts happened almost immediately at that home. Unless there are other facts to come out, it seems Brossard seems lied. And I think I know why- it says in the article the evacuators were mistakenly NOT told about the St. Rita home. And whose fault was that? Brossard, the head of the parish.
rilkefan
Firemen as props. I’ve got it right and I’m not calming down.
PotVsKtl
scs, what in the hell is wrong with you? Are you suggesting that man was acting, that he was not crying on television? For what purpose?
You are seriously despicable.
scs
Sorry, read the article. It contradicts what the man said. Open your eyes.
PotVsKtl
It doesn’t contradict a god damn thing. Did you read the quote you just responded to?
So you are saying that you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the woman in the story was one of the residents that died immediately?
It doesn’t contradict anything. You’re just a disgusting human being.
linda
oops,
Bush: “…I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did anticipate a serious storm. But these levees got breached. And as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded. And now we are having to deal with it and will.”
**********
On Saturday night, Mayfield was so worried about Hurricane Katrina that he called the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi and the mayor of New Orleans. On Sunday, he even talked about the force of Katrina during a video conference call to President Bush at his ranch in Crawford, Texas.
“I just wanted to be able to go to sleep that night knowing that I did all I could do,” Mayfield said.
[Last modified August 30, 2005, 02:45:28]
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/30/State/For_forecasting_chief.shtml
scs
Did you READ the story?
Did you READ where it said that rescue efforts happened almost IMMEDIATELY after the storm?
scs
In case you can’t read a whole article in one night:
From the article:
Mike S
Except that he did lie.
Well, I guess that is true if you count “a few” as more than 10.
PotVsKtl
Yes, rescue efforts:
In St. Bernard Parish. Do you know how large that is? So you are going to claim that he was lying because there were rescue efforts going on somewhere in the parish? Also in the article:
Not only are you grasping at straws, you are accusing a man who just went through hell of lying on television and pretending to cry to cover his ass. You ought to be ashamed, but I suspect you don’t have the capacity.
Mike S
scs
but St. Rita’s were evacuated before the storm.
But you’re probably right. He thought bauling on camera would look really cool so he went ahead and did it, not realising that scs would be on the case.
scs
Okay, I take it back. Either Broassard lied – or the media spun it.
The media kept playing it like Brossard was calling AFTER the storm trying to get someone to rescue people trapped in the home. He said basically “I called them on Wednesday, on Thursday, and she died on Friday”, which was used by the press as an indictment of the response after the storm.
Maybe he meant the Wednesday BEFORE the storm. In which case, that was an indictment of local authorities who forgot to go evacuate the home before the storm. But that is not at all how all the media played it.
PotVsKtl
Wrong:
By the way, the man’s name is Broussard. And St. Bernard Parish had 27,078 housing developments in 2002.
PotVsKtl
In case you don’t get it, my point was that the woman was calling him. He didn’t claim that he was desperately trying to get someone to the nursing home, although he may have been.
Nothing changes the fact that you are slandering a man whose life has just been destroyed for absolutely no reason.
scs
Well either way the article says:
It doesn’t say MOST. It details how the flood inundated the building, killing everyone swiftly. It also goes on to detail how the rescue efforts started right away with neighbors, and military efforts in the neighborhood.
It also details how the home was inexplicably NOT evacuated, even though the other homes were. That puts everything in a whole different light than the much quoted story.
scs
Okay, maybe that’s what he meant, that he was calling BEFORE the storm. But that is not at all how the media played it.
PotVsKtl
It doesn’t put anything in any different light.
I have no idea what line of logic you are following. They didn’t evacuate. How does that change anything? Some of the residents died on the 29th. How does that change anything?
Give it up, you’re off base in the worst way.
PotVsKtl
Nobody is claiming he was calling before the storm. You seem very confused.
scs
And by the way, as for me slandering a man whose life is destroyed, the man’s own mother didn’t die- a man from his district’s mother died. That’s who the story was about. I’m sorry, you may think it slander, but I look at things with a critical eye, no matter who it is.
PotVsKtl
The point is that you don’t look at things with a critical eye. You appear to be looking at things with closed eyes. You aren’t making any sense. Nothing in that article casts any shadow on what he said in any way. I can’t even fathom how you think it does.
Mike S
Here’s a picture for you bryan. That would be a dog eating a dead man’s leg.
PotVsKtl
His entire god damn city is underwater and he’s surrounded by dead people. What in the hell is wrong with your brain?
scs
Okay, I will try to explain again. The media used Broussard’s story as an attempt to illustrate how the response AFTER the flood was inadequate. But apparently, the people in the nursing home died DURING the first night of flooding, on Monday, August 29. The article basically says all the deaths were a cause of the immediate flood and that rescue efforts happened right away. Nowhere does the article say that people were waiting for resuce after that. The media’s attempt trying to use Broussards story as an example of after-the-flood failings seems to be spin.
scs
PotVsKtl, if we find out Broussard was twisting the truth, I expect an apology from you later.
Mike S
Then you are claiming that the response AFTER the flood was adequate?
scs
No, but this particular dramatic story does not go to that point.
PotVsKtl
No, it doesn’t. What of the other residents? Quit assuming dumb shit in an attempt to disparage a man you know nothing about.
scs
By the way- before I drop this, this was also in that NYT article about St. Rita’s home:
If the water quickly rose to the roof, it seems pretty evident that the all of 32 people who died in there drowned right away, on Monday.
LagunaDave
This is an emotional response. People without food and water *one day* after a storm are in no immediate life-threatening danger if they are on dry ground.
Are you suggesting that we just drop everything for the people who have the good fortune to be in front of TV cameras, and forget about the other 99.9% who don’t have TV cameras pointed at them, but still need help immediately?
The first priority in the response was to save people in immediate life-threatening danger. The whole point of making the Superdome into a shelter was so the people who went there wouldn’t *need* emergency rescue immediately after the storm. They were supposed to be OK for 72 hours, and would have been in no danger at all if the shelter had been properly provisioned and kept secure by the folks who sent them there.
I look forward to the investigation(s). The media has already settled on its version of the story, so the only way we’re going to know the truth is to bring on the subpoenas and sworn testimony. I think the speed and volume of the Fed’s response will prove to have been (on the whole) a miracle of organization and efficiency, especially considering the unprecedented magnitude of the calamity. Of course, having been through such a disaster for the first time, there will be plenty of things that didn’t work as intended, and we should make them work better. But the current feeding frenzy has no rational basis.
PotVsKtl
So you won’t say the response was adequate, but you’re on a mission to disprove through assumption examples of inadequacy.
Tally ho, I guess.
Mike S
Really? You’re digging into a story with the hope of disproving it for some reason. You seem to think this will somehow absolve the people responsible.
So tell me, have you gone through a roster of his staff? Have you checked with the many nursing homes to find out if anyone died on Friday, and then cross referenced those names?
You say you’ve been digging. I think IF this story were untrue it will come out. But reading 1 article on 1 nursing home in the parish and saying WAHLAH is pretty weak.
scs
I’m hoping to disprove it because when I saw him crying, I didn’t think he looked authentic. And I pride myself on being right about stuff like that. Plus I don’t want a phony to get away with anything. This has nothing to do about my opinion about the response, which we all agree was not adequate.
scs
Fine, we will wait and see later if it is true or not, right now, I remain suspicious.
Mike S
Really? I haven’t seen you take Brown, Chertoff, Bush, McClannan, Barbour, Myers or many of the others that are trying to “get away with it” on. Brown said the evacuation was going well. Bush said no one anticipated the levies would fail. Myers said that all of the papers said New Orleans was fine on Tuesday. Bush used fire fighters for photo ops.
If this guy is lying, and I have no reason to suspect he was, then it will come out. But in the grand scheme of things it seems like a petty search when so many other lies that tried to hide culpability were much more egregious.
scs
Okay, agreed, all phoniness is bad. But no one is on to Broussard yet (if he is one). Bush and Co. have plenty of people like you to expose their phoniness.
Fledermaus
It’s nice to see that the Swift Boat Drowning Victims for Truth are well funded, even if federal emergency systems are not.
scs
Okay, I know I am going to be crucified for this. But I predict I will be right on this. I think the NYT didn’t want to specifically accuse Broussard in the article because they didn’t want to be crucified either. You know what’s weird is, several times when I or anyone brought something up on here that I haven’t seen anywhere, I see an article on it in the New York Times like the next day. I wonder if a NYT writer is a reader here.
Mike S
I just don’t see any reason he would lie. It’s not as if there wasn’t enough real stuff to make his point. I’m not saying it’s a “slam dunk” that he’s telling the truth, just unlikely that he is not.
g’night.
scs
My theory is as I stated earlier. The article says that SOMEONE forgot to tell local authroties to evacuate St. Rita’s before the storm, even though they evacuated all the other homes around there. Now who was responsible to inform evacuation officials about homes in the parish? Oh, I don’t know… the parish head maybe?! Maybe this was an attempt to deflect blame from himself. But sleep calls as well. I dread to see what people say about me tomorrow.
Mike S
I’m still confused as to why you are so sure this is the home. There are 6 others in the parrish. Considering how many times we heard that evacuations were working when they weren’t, using this article as proof is premature.
I’d be saying the same thing if someone center left was claiming proof of their point like this. As a matter of fact I get a lot of crap for doing so on a regular basis.
scs
They are both St. Rita’s in Jefferson parish where 32 people died. Can only be one of those.
jobiuspublius
scs
See this link provided to me to compare.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9219975/
jobiuspublius
FUCKTARD! Sorry.
Aaron
I know I will feel much safer once we have a Democrat in the oval office. Then I will sit back and enjoy the news about the next hurrican, knowing there will be only good things to say about the government response and all local and state actions will be attributed to President Hillary.
Cuz you know that’s what happens. Let’s be honest.
PotVsKtl
No, see, here’s part of your problem right here. It doesn’t say that at all. You are simply reading between the lines and finding exactly what you want. From the article:
They don’t know why they didn’t evacuate. They just didn’t. Somebody screwed up, but there’s no implication that anyone “forgot” to tell anyone.
So, to some up:
o The article doesn’t say that all of the residents died on the 29th
o Broussard did not claim that he was calling people day after day telling them to go to the home
o The article does not say anyone forgot to tell the authorities to evacuate the home
o You are drawing these conclusions because you thought he was “phony” in the interview
I think there may be a few holes in your case.
PotVsKtl
Sum, obviously. Carry on.
Liberal Agitator
John,
It seems to me that you are now arguing so heavily for your point of view that so called “facts” on either side become irrelevant. When you’ve backed yourself into the kind of argument you have you take on the mantle of a Bush apologist regardless of your intentions.
Rather than argue for moderation, level-headedness, and patience to await the facts you are now simply shouting in the wind that “liberals” who want a quick accounting are idiots.
Sorry to see your once somewhat decent blog fall into such a mindless trap. I have to wonder on days like this if you have indeed imbibed that flavorful juice that Rove likes to serve on tap to the MSM.
Stormy70
The NYT condradicts his story, yet you guys won’t believe it because he cried on TV?! This throws a new light on his story, coupled with the fact he already is pissed at the feds for coming after his records. It is not looking good for his story, at all.
slide
scs epitomizes everything that disgusts me about the current crop of right wingnuts. His callus and cavalier attitude to a man that has just gone through a most horrific event. Anyway you look at it, Katrina is worse than a war zone. Horrible death and destruction in one of our cities. Days of going without power, being helpless when his residents have been calling begging for help and his inability to do enough to save them. wow… I imagine the emotional toll on anyone. The scenes on my TV, in the comfort of my home, have been gut retching can any of even imagine what it must have been to live through that?
but this piece of shit scs just “knows” the man is lying. An actor. A premeditated “performance”. Like one would have to lie about bad things happening in his Parish.The right just attacks and attacks and attacks anyone that may bring a negative light on “their” side. Reprehensible. Disgusting. Vile. are only a few of the words I can think of to describe scs and his “gut feeling”.
bryan
Here’s a picture for you bryan. That would be a dog eating a dead man’s leg.
Care to cite which newspaper or TV program that image came from?
slide
Vote Republican !
Policy Decisions have CONSEQUENCES.
Invade Iraq? Seemed like a good idea.
Loosen restraints on torture? Seemed like a good idea
Cut funding to strenghten levees? Seemed like a good idea
Gut FEMA? Seemed like a good idea
Put a loser political hack in charge? Seemed like a good idea
Vote Republican? Seemed like a good idea
slide
You know things are bad when even Hitch is attacking the President:
.
John Cole
You know, it is comments like this that make me think that some of you don;t read the posts, you glance at them, and then offer up your opinions.
I want the facts in the case, because you can’t have accountability without knowing the facts.
MMM
The majority of Americans who voted last year voted to re-elect President Bush – enjoy three+ more years….time for me to go search for coins under my couch so I can buy a half gallon of gas…
Accountability is a dirty word
With Hitch now admitting the obvious (Bush and his administration bungled their response to this storm terribly), there aren’t many true believers left.
The spin that the locals screwed up doesn’t work politically. People want the federal government there in disasters like this. Even libertarians agree this is the proper role of government. There is simply no excuse for having a Arabian horse league official running this outfit.
Bush’s nepotism has caught up to him after all these years.
Buddy
This is a comment I wrote on Belgravia, but I’ll leave it here too, as it seems relevent.
Disclaimer: A lot of my understanding here is from working in a Local Emergency Operations Center with our County Emergency manager doing direct liaison contact with FEMA and the State of Florida Emergency Response Team last year, so I may be absolutely wrong in respect to how things work in LA but:
I think people are operating under a total misunderstanding of what FEMA actually does. We are under the impression that FEMA will provide every aspect of disaster recovery in a situation like this, but this, as far as my understanding, does not turn out to be factual, nor practical. FEMA depends HEAVILY on the local gov to do a lot of the on-the-ground work of setting up distribution centers, and providing a central communications channel. In FL, the ‘boots on the ground’ that we got from FEMA last year were basically field officials who setup centers to help people fill out paperwork and the like. Think of the average FEMA field worker as a mobile H&R block person for FEMA assistance. They are there to distribute fliers, phone numbers and help people fill out the paperwork, and answer questions about what qualifies for FEMA assistance.
They also have liaisons in your state emergency response center (this is where most of the real FEMA work is done), because that is the logical point of contact, as all of the counties in the state of FL (and I’d presume LA) have emergency warning points, redundant communications channels, and contact people to help direct the flow of information. They work HEAVILY with the state emergency response teams (which it seems were either non-existent, or just completely off-line) to find out where need is and where to send it. Maybe this is different from state to state, but I doubt it.
The States typically have the emergency communications infrastructure in place to assist FEMA to do this job, and it is just TOTALLY impractical to have to setup an entire command and control infrastructure in 2 days. If they don’t have this communications channel in place, they just can’t do their job until it IS setup. It is incumbent on, and in the best interest of, the state to have said infrastructure in place for the best response to a disaster situation, otherwise I’d guess there WILL be a delay in response.
The initial ‘boots on the ground’ that do most of the real work are your State guardsmen and local EOC/County Gov/Law Enforcement. Now those guardsmen which were under the purview of the Governor of LA, and who refused to release control to the feds, are your primary ‘first responders’, along side of your local Emergency response teams and Police Departments/Sheriff’s offices. The guard didn’t get moved quick enough, and this is TOTALLY on the hands of the Governor, initially. The Feds just don’t step in and commandeer your state guardsmen, they ask you for it and if you don’t release control, well then the ball is in the state GOV/EOC’s court to make things happen. I don’t have a clue where the state LEO were in this, but they seemed non-existent, and we know what happened to the Local LEO, they were just overwhelmed because state LEO and Guard didn’t show on time to help support.
The local governments are typically working HEAVILY on prepping for FEMA to send in supplies, etc., and telling FEMA where those supplies need to be. It seems like this just didn’t happen, and FEMA had to come into the situation cold and find out for themselves, which took time. The local governments also setup and maintain/run the distribution centers, typically, although the guard can do this too. We ran them in our county, just because it was something we could easily do ourselves, although we had guardsmen there to help.
In short, it seems people think FEMA is this all encompassing army of people who swoop in and magically setup a massive, redundant communications infrastructure in 3 hours, and then who are expected to do everything from command and control, to mortuary services. That, in my experience, just isn’t the case. They are the MANAGEMENT agency through which a lot of this stuff happens, but they rely on the state and local governments to work with them to do the job. If that doesn’t happen, you end up with what you got in LA, a massive breakdown in operations.
Tractarian
scs, don’t you think it is possible that Broussard’s emotion was genuine but he just got his facts wrong? I mean, there’s no shortage of things to cry about this week.
Nikki
According to the NYT, the St. Rita’s nursing home is in St. Bernard Parish. But Broussard is head of Jefferson Parish. So, in what way would he be to blame for what happened in a parish not in his control?
Tim F
That’s not the half of it. The federal government automatically holds responsibility for responding to disasters like this. It doesn’t matter whether Stormy “expects” the federal government to be any help or not. It’s their job, and if this administration can’t deliver then they deserve to be replaced with an administration who can.
I can’t count the number of times Bush lovers here have claimed local government is the first responder in these situations. That is flat wrong. I’m sick of knocking it down because, golly, there it is again the next day. It’s like there’s some fantasy world where rightwingers can run and shake off those inconvenient ‘facts’ from their beautiful minds.
Tractarian
Local government is the first responder. But once those levees broke, there ceased to be anything resembling a “local government.”
You may have noticed that Stormy has, as of yet, declined to respond to my post above which makes it pretty clear that FEMA, upon the stroke of Bush’s pen, would have absolute authority to take over any and all recovery efforts (and pretty much anything else) in a national emergency. The potential powers of the President through FEMA are so broad that some have called it America’s “Secret Government”.
There is no such thing as a “turf battle” between LA and FEMA here because the Feds could simply move it and take over if they wanted to.
TallDave
Wait, you mean this didn’t happen just because Bush hates black people and poor people???
Cannot… readjust.. worldview! Too..painful!! Must.. ignore… facts!!!
TallDave
Tractarian,
Yeah, the federal gov’t can seize control. But that’s the kind of heavy-handed usurpation of local authority that normally has people screaming “FASCISM!!”
I’m sure the Democratic Mayor and Governor would have been delighted to have a Republican President march in and declare them incompetent to coordinate the relief effort. Just delighted. And MoveOn.org, the ACLU, the Congressional Black Caucus? They’d have cheered Bush on!
Narvy
I’m late to this party, and I’m reading my way through the thread so that I can identify the liberal lies to propagate and the conservative truths to denigrate. But I have to pause to respond to
First statement = True. Second statement = False.
Unless, of course, unfounded accusations of hypocrisy count as truth.
I’ll refrain from commenting on the Paris Hilton-Stormy connection until I see Stormy washing a car while fellating a hamburger.
TallDave
Tractarian,
Also, that FEMA list you provided doesn’t speak to the establishment of who’s in charge, only what powers the gov’t has. Notice the list does not include:
* allows the federal government to seize control over all local and state governments.
The only way, legally, they can do that is to declare an insurrection. I can just imagine the reaction to that: “Bush has declared war on New Orleans!”
Tractarian
What? TallDave eschewing juvenile snarks in favor of reasoned analysis? Can’t….handle…it….
Phew. Back to normal.
Seriously, you don’t seem to understand. The choice wasn’t federal government or local government. The choice was federal government or nothing at all, because once the levees failed local government ceased to exist in any meaningful way. Sure, that didn’t stop the mayor from complaining and making remarks, but his city was destroyed. He had no power, no resources, nothing. Just a microphone.
Now tell me Bush was sitting in his Situation Room in Crawford agonizing over whether the Feds should take over the rescue efforts. Tell me Bush was wringing his hands worrying about liberal interest groups calling him a “fascist” while thousands were waiting for help. If that’s true, the appropriate next step for Bush would be resignation.
Narvy
Stormy says in response to a snark:
Just a few days ago, Narvy said to Stormy
Irony? Commonality? Hypocrisy? Whatever.
Enough feuding. Back to catching up with the Ministry of Information.
Brian
http://ownedbycats.blogspot.com/2005/09/hey-ho-lets-go.html
…
Okay, I did promise a few things that made FEMA look better, so let’s go to them now. Balloon Juice has a good roundup of some rumors that were not true.
capelza
Thank you! I was going to point that out. I wish someone with that “gut feeling” who is so quick to “check the facts” and accuse someone of a CYA moment would at least have that salient little fact down pat. Are all those parishes the same to some of you?
So Broussard is a “phony” because you have a “gut feeling” scs? Or because his breakdown on TV was just very damaging to the admin and he needs to be proven a liar. I think what came out of as facts are true from his perspective. He didn’t see where Wal-Mart sent the water, just that it was taken from his own parish. Really, good god, have you no shame?
John Cole is right, we need to have the correct facts…but it doesn’t require crucifying others to protect the feds. I tell you, if Bush, et al would lay off, maybe everyone else would,too. Don’t cry the “blsme game” when you are holding a card up your own sleeve.
ppGaz
Stormy, scs, Darrel, they’re all the same.
They don’t really care about the disaster, or the war, or terrorism, or any of that stuff. What they care about is “our side won, get over it.” As long as they can roll around like pigs in mud in their hatred of anything that opposes their “team”, they’re happy.
And the one thing you can absolutely count on them for, is projection. If they lie, they will call you a liar. If they are gleeful that things are going their way — even if people have to be fucked over to make it so — they’ll accuse you of glee. Whatever they do, it’s you. They take responsibility for nothing. They are accountable for nothing. Can’t find the WMD’s? HARHARHAR it’s a big joke, see the president looking under the sofa cushions for the weapons? Hee hee. Do you notice that they NEVER talk about that “comedy” routine? It’s because they know how despicable it was, but they secretly laugh about it. Ha ha, no WMDs. Get it? They won, get over it.
FEMA versus LA? They won, get over it.
Iraq to end up as Mini-Iran? Too bad, they won, get over it.
Any shred of mendacity, disingenuousness, anger, rage …. that’s all you, never them.
John Cole, owner of the thickest tin ear in history, sits here and cluck-clucks over this annoying “Bush-hating” buzz in his ear that won’t go away.
Earth to John: It’s the relentless, fuck-you, we-won-get-over-it, we-can-do-no-wrong crowd that we are fighting. Your toss-off comments to the effect that you aren’t really one of them sound about as convincing as George Bush saying that “nobody expected the levees to fail.”
You’ll declare that I’m full of shit, of course, that almost goes without saying. But I am 100% right about this.
Stormy’s greatest accomplishment in the Katrina story will be to get some kind of moral victory about exactly HOW 32 people died in a rest home. Can you imagine such a thing, can you imagine somebody advancing something like that? Death and destruction as far as you can see, and this …. person …. is hovering over the rest home story looking for cracks in someone’s account of it, so that she can cackle over it in this blog. Hee hee, see, we won, get over it.
And you wonder why we get so pissed and why we hate these motherf*kers? They are the kind of people who gladly declare war on half of their own country, and then accuse the opposition of being “rude” and “hateful.”
You remind me of a guy driving a car full of kids on vacation. “Don’t make me stop this car.” Guess what, we are not kids. We don’t need a daddy to tell us what is right and wrong. We are all adults. Maybe the half you don’t agree with isn’t wrong, maybe we just don’t agree with you? Maybe you could put as much energy into examining your own views as you do lecturing us about how to deal with ours?
Maybe the “no controlling legal authority” argument is not enough to erase the impression that this government of potatoheads has completely failed the people in this situation, and maybe it isn’t about arcane details of who invoked which provision of which statute, maybe it’s just about comparing what they say to what the world really is and finding them lacking? Maybe it really is as simple as that? Even if it isn’t to you, maybe it is to a lot of other people, and perhaps insisting that everyone wear YOUR glasses to look at this is not the answer. Maybe that just makes you sound like a toned down version of Darrell?
Ah forget it, I’m wasting my fucking time.
Veeshir
I usually don’t post unless I’ve read every post before mine, but… I’m sorry John, in many threads here it’s just not worth it. I got to the second time somebody accused you of ignoring facts to support Bush and figured it was a waste of time so I’m just going post.
The initial problem was that the police didn’t keep order. That’s what started the horrible cascade of other problems. There were animals firing on the people trying to bring in help (helicopters, boats, etc) and people trying to kill the people who were already there and trying to help (the Drs in the hospitals where the animals were attacking for drugs, and whatever else they could carry off)
That’s where the blame starts. After that, it’s all a matter of getting the proper National Guard units there. Not engineers and search and rescue types as first expected, but military police types. You can’t just take Harry National Guardsmen and expect him to perform a duty for which he was not trained. If they had just sent in combat troops instead of MPs there would have been other problems as combat troops fight, they don’t ‘restore order’ except the order of a graveyard.
The NO police seen looting helped begin the events and when most of the remainder bugged out that was that for any sort of help until order was restored.
Now you can blame whoever you want for the conditions that led to that, but once there’s anarchy the needs drastically change.
Tractarian
OK, now explain to me why the Feds would need to “seize control over all local and state governments” in order to take over the relief effort. Apparently you read the list of executive orders above – did you find it insufficient? Are there additional powers you think FEMA would need in order to do its job?
And by the way, there was no need for the Feds to displace the city and state governments – that was already done quite well by the storm and the flood.
You don’t really think an “insurrection” would be “legal”, do you?
DougJ
Scs, are you suggesting that the woman was contacting her son from beyond the grave?
DougJ
“Stormy, scs, Darrel, they’re all the same.”
No, they’re not. Stormy on this issue, like me, has parted ways with Darrell.
Why do you guys always want to say “all conservatives are alike”. It’s like a disease with some of you guys.
jobiuspublius
It costs a lot of money to support first responders. To do a proper job may require the elimination of the “social programs”. Even that may not be enough for some places. So, isn’t kos correct in implying that NO was Norquists bathtub?
summr
This is slightly off topic, but is on the same theme of getting
facts straight. It appears that some of the stories of violence
and rape in the superdome, etc. were simply rumors.
Damaging rumors that made some people less sympathetic to
those left behind in NO. The article I linked to argues that some
of the exaggerations about the level of lawlessness in NO may have
delayed rescues. They are certainly having an effect right now
in Baton Rouge with some residents already planning to move
to avoid the coming “criminal wave” from the NO evacuees, based on
what they’ve heard, and others making runs on gun shops. People’s
attitudes may make this a self-fulfilling prophecy. And race most definitely plays a role.
Tractarian
That’s good. Ignore all posts that make you politically uncomfortable. You might want to stick to Red State or LGF, where there’s relatively little that you would have to ignore.
This is so wrong it makes me sick. The “initial problem” was not the failure of the NO police to keep order, it was the GODDAMN LEVEES FAILING. In a couple of months, when the tens of thousands of bodies are recovered from the sludge, maybe people will realize that the levee failure was the overriding “proximate cause” for all the chaos that followed.
This is not to excuse the inadequate local planning and the inadequate federal response. But to say that the police failures started a “horrible cascade of other problems” is grossly inaccurate. My God, an officer committed suicide because his entire family drowned. If you think more scenes like that aren’t forthcoming in the weeks and months ahead, you’re deluding yourself.
And you want to “start” the blame with these brave and overwhelmed officers. Disgusting.
You are right about this. Still doesn’t explain whys MP unit weren’t flown in sooner than they were.
The police seen “looting” were scavenging for necessities – I suppose you might do the same thing if your city was destroyed and bloated corpses were floating by while you were starving and dehydrated.
The “animals” seen stealing clothes and TVs were stealing items that had no value to anyone, because the city was destroyed. Kind of like stealing a deck chair from the Titanic. But by all means, go ahead and have moral indignation against these people with their shit-stained jeans and broken TVs, if it makes you feel better about yourself.
“Most of the remainder bugged out”, huh? Wrong again. That’s what happens when you live in an echo chamber, Veeshir, you screw up on important facts.
TallDave
Tractarian,
Which part of the concept of “not in charge” is confusing you? They don’t have the authority to do any of those things unless and until the Governor asks them for help.
From a legal perspective, the only way the federal gov’t can seize control absent that permission is by declare the locals to be in a state of insurrection, which would probably lead to people saying things like this:
TallDave
The “animals” seen stealing clothes and TVs were stealing items that had no value to anyone, because the city was destroyed. Kind of like stealing a deck chair from the Titanic. But by all means, go ahead and have moral indignation against these people with their shit-stained jeans and broken TVs, if it makes you feel better about yourself.
Dude, now you’re just blithering. Who would steal a broken TV? And unlike the Titanic, if they had transportation they could take their non-broken $5,000 TVs and sell them somewhere else.
Anderson
You’re being a bit of a prick here, sir. I haven’t seen anything of the sort from Stormy, who says she’s even working in a shelter.
Narvy
Not at all ppGaz, that was a good post. And that’s certainly not the kind of time you should waste anyway. I think you’re right about the let-’em-eat-crawfish amusement of the Bush-can-do-no-wrong aristocracy. They seem to be more interested in scoring points than in talking about what the country (read: administration) needs to do to prevent another monstrous failure in the future.
I am unable to pick out from the contradictory noisemaking the real microfacts that support either side in the amnot-aretoo-liarliar debate (debate?!). What is clear to me is that something went terribly wrong in the responses of all levels of government, that federal disaster reponse policies appear to be sufficiently unclear to give ammunition to both sides, and that the Executive Branch of the Government did not act quickly and decisively. (And their PR machine must have been out for repairs, permitting much insensitive stupidity to escape into the open air.)
I don’t think many of the specific failures really matter. The big issue is how ready is the country to deal with a disaster, to minimize loss of life, to protect and succor the injured and displaced. Looking at Katrina as a dress rehearsal for the next Big One, I am not encouraged. It’s clear that some serious changes need to be made, not least the introduction of competent management into DHS and FEMA, and quick, decisive action to make it happen. It’s clear that the planners need to take account of known risks and vulnerabilities and make sure that some preparation is done (yes, I’m thinking about the Times-Picayune science fiction series about flooding NO). It’s also clear that the disaster managers need to rethink priorities: taking time to lecture firefighters about sexual harrassment is … words fail me.
Right now, it looks as though the President’s much-touted dedication to loyalty will prevent any quick action to reshape management, and the proposed Presidential investigation will only serve to deflect attention from an ongoing failure to improve policies, procedures, and preparation.
I will now hunker down in my foxhole while the accusations of “Bush-hater” rain down.
Tim F
Define ‘ask.’ You are indicting Kathleen Blanco so be specific about what you mean. IIt would be a shame if you got taken in by the disinformation floating around about Nagin and Blanco.
Tim F
T-Dave, this isn’t the first time you’ve concocted some ectoplasmic opponent against whom to argue. Is the real world really so unfriendly to your worldview that you have to cerate imaginary opponents against whom to argue?
Buddy
“My God, an officer committed suicide because his entire family drowned. If you think more scenes like that aren’t forthcoming in the weeks and months ahead, you’re deluding yourself.”
The rumor his whole family drowned is false. He was going through a divorce, I think, and did lose his home I believe. Not that it really mitigates this tragedy.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/06/D8CER9E00.html
http://www.legacy.com/theadvocate/LegacySubPage2.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonId=15018892
Tractarian
Oh really? So the President can order FEMA to take control of the nation’s communications infrastructure, highways, seaports, utilities, order people into camps, etc. but he has to wait for the governor’s go-ahead? This is a common GOP talking point for which I have not yet seen evidence. So either provide evidence as I have or admit you’re wrong.
The point, which you don’t seem to grasp, was that the looting was a very minor part of this catastrophe and accounted for a minuscule portion of the property damage. Yet you seem to think the lack of order in NO “started the cascade of events”. Baffling.
scs
Okay all you slanderers, I was just pointing out what I read in the NEW YORK TIMES! Hate the message, don’t hate the messenger here. The NYT is hardly a conservative rag, and the best, most precise paper in the country. The article states that the 32 people who died in the home died during the flood. PERIOD. It doesn’t say MOST died during the flood. If that’s what they meant, that’s what they would have said. If you feel that you know better than the NYT about the facts, I suggest you contact them and tell them to issue a retraction. Until I see that in print or someone meaningfully contradicts where my comprehension of the article is wrong, it is all wishful thinking on your part. You all can’t want something soooo bad that you will overlook facts to believe it and slander anyone who touches on your preconceived notions.
capelza
Broussard is the President of Jefferson Parish. Even through the emotion of his intial interview on Russert I got the part about the lady in question being in St. Bernard’s Parish. So, again, how would Broussard be trying to deflect blame from himself? Do you even realise that it was in different parish? In case you are not aware, a parish is like a county…though I won’t insult your intelligence by assuming you did not realise that.
So I do have to question, however, your “gut feeling”, because apparantly it’s based on bad gas or something and not ANY facts escept the ones you need to fit YOUR own spin.
Nikki
You were the only slanderer I saw. You tried to say Broussard was a liar and/or covering up his own incompetence for not evacuating the nursing home. I pointed out that the nursing home wasn’t in his parish. Whether or not all or most of the people died during the flood is irrelevant. You tried to blame Broussard.
scs
Okay, Tractarian, I posted this before, but I will post it again for your benefit. These are excerpts from the first page of the 2004 National Response Plan, the legal framework for what the Feds should do or shouldn’t do:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/press_release/press_release_0581.xml
The response is supposed to start on the local level as much as possible. The Feds can come in and handle only what the locals can’t do. The problem in this act is finding the line between the two, especially if you have a governor and President who confront each other.
scs
Well how I heard the story and Broussard said that the man whose mother died was in HIS parish. Now what confuses me is that they are two different parishes. I’m not sure how that works. Either way, if that part of my supposition is incorrect, it does not take away from the fact that he acted like he was calling all week, trying to get help for the nursing home patients, when they had already died. Where is that contradicted? I’ll be glad to issue an apology if proven incorrect.
Nikki
Exactly. Just because the man worked in Broussard’s parish doesn’t mean that his mother was housed in Broussard’s parish.
Broussard’s exact words from the full transcript at MSNBC:
His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, “Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?” And he said, “Yeah, Mama, somebody’s coming to get you. Somebody’s coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Friday.” And she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night.
He NEVER said he was trying to get help for the nursing home.
capelza
I didn’t “hear” the story, I saw it out of his own mouth. How it works is that probably the best available nursing home was in another parish, like my MIL is across the river in another state because the BEST care we could get her was there, across the bridge and not in her old town. It’s incredibly common. Small communities may not have the facilities, good ones anyway, that they would willingly put their loved ones in.
Have you even seen Broussard’s rant? Or are you going by secong hand information? The most powerful part for me isn’t about any of the things he cited, from emotion..but at the end where he cries out…”Shut up, stop with the press conferences, just shut up and send somebody”…I’m paraphrasing, but that is the absolute essence of it. I do believe that after that, on Sunday, Fema did finally show up on Monday, this past Monday.
You all got so busy tearing apart his timeline you missed the biggest point…he said is parish had been abandoned…
scs
Okay, HOW can that story be true, how can the woman have asked for help on Tuesday and Wednesday when everyone drowned at St. Bernard’s home on MONDAY? It just doesn’t make sense.
Narvy
About an hour ago I posted a reference to
There have been about a dozen posts between that one and this one, and they all fit my definition of noisemaking. If we can’t talk about issues of substance (and I do not believe that questioning Broussard’s truthfulness, for example, is substantive), maybe John ought to retitle this thread “The National Blamecasting Company.”
scs
Okay, it may not substantive, but it’s interesting. Kind of like a detective novel.
ppGaz
Maybe, Doug, but I haven’t seen it.
Tractarian
Gee, thanks, scs, but I’m not sure how this is at all relevant to what I was talking about. I totally agree with you that the National Response Plan requires the local authorities to do as much as possible, and for the Feds to move in only when the locals are overwhelmed.
Read the sentence right after where you stopped quoting (my emphasis):
So, am I missing something? Is anyone here arguing the locals weren’t overwhelmed? I hope not. The only question is when the Feds had the authority to move in and take control.
Granted, I haven’t read the entire NRP, but I don’t think there’s anything in it that says the governor must give his/her go-ahead before FEMA takes charge in an emergency (as it is authorized by executive order to do, and which was the point of my earlier post). Please, if there is any evidence that does show this, I would like to see it.
scs
ppgaz, you may be surprised to know that I am not republican. In fact I’m not really a joiner type or a team person in general. However, I am a contrarian and I like to defend against rampant group attacks, which seems to happen a lot here.
scs
Yes Tractarian, I see your point. The problem is this act is new – one year old, and never used. Before that, it was the Posse Comitatus Act that gave supreme rights to the state, which mindset I’m sure Bush is till in. So after whatever disagreement they had at first, Bush was hesitant to come in and just steamroll over Blanco, who didn’t want Federal troops there if that meant she had to give up control of her guard like Bush wanted.
Narvy
Maybe, but a detective novel reaches a conclusion based on irrefutable facts.
scs
The New York Times does not have facts?
Watcher
13% of the country thinks this should be blamed on Bush. That’s the majority of the posters in this thread, a very small minority with a very massive ego.
The rest of the country is laughing at you pathetic political hacks. Your party will pay the price in the next elections. Don’t listen though, keep drinking the bongwater and sending idiots to speak for you.
ppGaz
You may be surprised to know that I have no opinion regarding, nor any interest in, your party affiliation.
Narvy
This is not a criticism, but I don’t think you took my point. Every time a presumed fact is posted, someone posts another presumed fact to rebut it. The posters never agree on the facts and attempt to refute everything they don’t agree with. This would be fine if it led anywhere, like to a conclusion, but nobody ever posts “You’re right, I was mistaken, I can’t refute your evidence, and so I’ve changed my opinion/mind.”
Oh, the answer to your question is “Frequently”. Certainly more frequently than when Raines was in charge. You might find some amusement at TimesWatch.org, “Documenting and Exposing the Liberal Political Agenda of the New York Times.”.
Narvy
My last post may not have been clear. It was intended to mean The NY Times frequently has facts.
Tractarian
The National Response Plan is an executive branch regulation (as far as I can tell), and thus cannot supercede an Act of Congress such as Posse Comitatus. As the Chief Executive, Bush must know that.
And Posse Comitatus is really no barrier, in practice, to the federal authority over emergency management:
Stormy70
Then look it up, not my fault you skipped over it. Hell, Darrell got a little pissed at me. I like Darrell, and sometimes I agree and sometimes I don’t. I don’t think he’s heartless, but he can throw down with the best of them.
ppGaz
Not my fault if, after months of your obnoxious and dishonest crap, you had one good day, and I missed it.
Good for you. See if you can two in a row.
TallDave
Tractarian,
You haven’t provided a scrap of evidence for your argument. There’s nothing there that gives them the authority to take over local operations. In fact, since it’s not listed, that’s actually counter-evidence, since if it were in their power to seize control it would presumably be listed.
Here’s the WaPo on the issue:
“Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her [Gov Blanco] a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state’s emergency operations center said Saturday.
“The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night.”
They asked, the locals refused.
Narvy
Note to scs
I rest my case.
Jim Caputo
But John, do you really need ALL the facts to form a realistic conclusion? For example, if a person is accused of murdering 50 people over the span of a year, but at this moment in time we only have actual proof of 25 murders, and what we think looks like exculpatory evidence in 10 others, are we not justified in calling the person a mass-murderer? Does the fact that he was accused of 10 murders that he didn’t commit excuse him from the 25 he did commit?
At this point, I think there is enough out there to say Bush and FEMA failed miserably with the relief effort. I don’t need a government decreed examination of every tiny detail and nuance. All of this other crap (Broussard, etc.) is red herrings, the list of which will be used by the right to excuse the wrongs for which there is proof.
ppGaz
The president has all the power, he can order pretty much what he needs to, to protect lives and property.
All the rest on this subject is just horseshit, and you know it.
jobiuspublius
The problem with the looting idea is that it ignores the fact that the vast majority of the deaths were due to other causes. The looting idea reduces sympathy. Sympathy unites people. Sympathy is also not often associated with this government nor was it part of their campaign strategy.
DougJ
Moderate Voice guy, I hope that isn’t true.
TallDave
The president has all the power, he can order pretty much what he needs to, to protect lives and property.
All the rest on this subject is just horseshit, and you know it.
Sheesh, this is America, not Soviet Russia or Saddamist Iraq. We have a little principle called “separation of powers.” The president does not have “all the power.”
Nikki
So, am I to believe your perspective or that of the man who was actually talking to his mother?
jobiuspublius
How did he talk to his mother? I don’t remember Broussards story in detail. Did he say she was at a nursing home? Maybe she was alone in her own home.
How could the parish’s emergency manager not evacuate or rescue his own mother? There may actually be reasons. Let’s not assume he didn’t, wouldn’t, or couldn’t try.
Narvy
It’s an AP story, but I can’t find it anywhere besides the SF Chronicle.
ppGaz
Uh, yeah, in this situation, he does. He has sweeping powers in cases of major disaster and emergency.
This president in particular, who has been all about centralizing and consolidating such power, should know that.
TomInWestBend
Uh no, the President cannot seize control and instute Marshal law without an Act of Congress. FEMA has to follow that law. This did not happen and will not happen. The State of Louisana is still under state control not federal control. FEMA doesn’t have power to do anything without the order from the Gov. These orders didn’t come until tuesday once they found out the levy had broken. And it wasn’t even safe to go into NOLA until early tue as it was!
SDN
I found the following facts with about 30 minutes of Googling.
Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, as amended by Public Law 106-390, October 30, 2000
http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm#sec501
(I tried to put this one in a link, but possibly due to the # construct, it wiped out the next paragraph. The linking procedure worked with all others.)
1) § 5191. PROCEDURE FOR DECLARATION {Sec. 501}
a.Request and declaration
All requests for a declaration by the President that an emergency exists shall be made by the Governor of the affected State. Such a request shall be based on a finding that the situation is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and the affected local governments and that Federal assistance is necessary. As a part of such request, and as a prerequisite to emergency assistance under this Act, the Governor shall take appropriate action under State law and direct execution of the State’s emergency plan. The Governor shall furnish information describing the State and local efforts and resources which have been or will be used to alleviate the emergency, and will define the type and extent of Federal aid required. Based upon such Governor’s request, the President may declare that an emergency exists.
The law which set up DHS did not supersede that:
Link
The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, Public Law 93-288, as amended (the Stafford Act) was enacted to support State and local governments and their citizens when disasters overwhelm them. This law establishes a process for requesting and obtaining a Presidential disaster declaration, defines the type and scope of assistance available under the Stafford Act, and sets the conditions for obtaining that assistance.
The governor of Louisiana refused to request the aid, according to CNN and the Mayor of New Orleans.
Link
The city of New Orleans had a disaster plan:
Link
They just didn’t follow any of it.
It specifically dealt with evacuations:
“The safe evacuation of threatened populations when endangered by a major catastrophic event is one of the principle reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan. The thorough identification of at-risk populations, transportation and sheltering resources, evacuation routes and potential bottlenecks and choke points, and the establishment of the management team that will coordinate not only the evacuation but which will monitor and direct the sheltering and return of affected populations, are the primary tasks of evacuation planning. Due to the geography of New Orleans and the varying scales of potential disasters and their resulting emergency evacuations, different plans are in place for small-scale
evacuations and for citywide relocations of whole populations.
Authority to issue evacuations of elements of the population is vested in the Mayor. By Executive Order, the chief elected official, the Mayor of the City of New Orleans, has the authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.”
And what resources could the Mayor have used, under his control? How about the 205 school buses less than two miles (by interstate) from the dome. Here’s a satellite shot of the relevant area. Dome lower left, busses upper right.
Link
Note that the NO public transit had an additional 364 busses
available. And both sets had the fuel they use for everyday
operations.
The state government had a plan from 2000:
Paragraph 5 on page 13 states:
“5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.”
Also see page 18, paragraph 2a 2 and 3.
Page 20, paragraph 3a 5.
Page 21, paragraph c 4.
Page 29, all of it.
This little quote from Army regs is interesting:
“State and local officials have primary responsibility for emergency preparedness planning and responsibilities.” Field Manual 100-19, Domestic Support Operations, p. 2-9
Now, I know that you guys would want President Bush to ignore all those laws anytime he feels like.
This is why you keep the government limited folks: someday, your side might not control it!
As for trashing FEMA:
FEMA (as an agency) hasn’t been worth the powder it would take to blow it away for years. This article was written in 1995 (under whose Administration? what party?):
Link
“In everything it did, FEMA appeared to live up to the
description once given to it by South Carolina Sen. Ernest
Hollings: “the sorriest bunch of bureaucratic jackasses I’ve ever
known.” ”
So what was the suggestion of the Congress to improve it? Stack
another layer of bureaucracy on top called DHS, AGAINST PRES. BUSH’S WISHES:
“Did the Bush administration initially want a cabinet department
on homeland security?
No. After the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon,
the Bush administration tried a more modest restructuring of
America’s homeland defenses by creating a White House office to
handle domestic security, headed by Tom Ridge. But congressional
critics warned that the White House homeland security office fell
short, noting that federal agencies were trying to buck Ridge’s
oversight and that Ridge had no budgetary authority over the
agencies he sought to coordinate.”
“Moreover, some policy experts warn that important agency
missions unrelated to homeland security—such as the main focus of
the Coast Guard, search and rescue at sea—could suffer.”
And, of course, congresscritters (from both parties) are still
squabbling over the allocation of money, each trying to carve off
money for their states, whether they need it or not.
Which brings up the next point: logistics
(you know, what the professionals study).
On another site, this is a simple set of calculations I found:
> Let n be the number of buses needed to to shift people from
> one place to the other. Let x be the number of miles you need
> to shift these people to get them to “saftey”. Let y be the
> number of people you can shift per bus. Let p be the total
> population you’ve got to move. Let h be the time you’ve got to
> move them in.
>
> The simple calculation is: n=p/y
>
> How many people on a bus? Well, let’s assume a big bus, I
> think that’s around 70 people, and we’re going to move them
> 300 miles from the coast (the effected area reaches inland /at
> least/ 120 miles, my daughter lives in Central MS, and as of 3
> this afternoon they were w/out power and she was heading to
> Atlanta to be with her mom)
>
> How many people have we got to move? 2000:
>
> 29=2000/70 (this is integer math, we get whole buses so we
> round up).
>
> 10000 people: 143 buses.
>
> 100,000 people: 1429 busses.
>
> Now, 1429 buses is a lot. And that’s also 1429 drivers that
> have to be gotten somewhere on time etc. Where are you going
> to get that many? You won’t. You can’t. The buses in the
> damaged areas cannot be planned on, nor can the drivers (they
> have families etc.). So you do with fewer buses but make
> multiple trips, this gets even worse, because now you add time
> into it, and it becomes about how long it takes to shift
> people, and how many you can shift per trip or hour.
Bear in mind that you also have to consider gasoline, motor oil, tires, etc., all of which have to be positioned within bus radius of the coast, WITHIN the zone of destruction which means that like the busses and drivers mentioned above they cannot be relied on once the emergency is over. But before the emergency part begins, those resources are available within the local jurisdiction, if you are willing to use them in advance and accept the disruptions to normal life that will result, even when you guess wrong. Yes, that does include gasoline; you just issue the drivers a license that authorizes them to fill up at local gas stations, and you make sure that the state’s gasoline wholesalers understand that when the state of emergency is declared, the gas stations along the evacuation route have absolute priority on delivery. And as I noted above, Hizzonor the (Democratic) Mayor of New Orleans, and Her Excellency (Democratic) Governor Blanco had all the authority they needed to kick this off.
Here’s another logistics post, from a guy who’s actually done it.
“Think the shortage of available fuel for 300 miles might put a crimp on any Federal response?”
Let’s dispose of another myth: “All the National Guard’s in Iraq so we didn’t have enough!”
The LA National Guard has 11,500 troops.
Link
Approximately 3500 of them are deployed, most as part of the 256th Infantry brigade (Mech).
3,500/11,500 = 30%
Notably at least one Combat Engineer Group, the 225th, is still in LA. And, again, any group you bring in just adds more to the logistics burden.
I realize that trashing Bush trumps all other considerations, but I pray to the God of the Engineer that nne of you is responsible for running something I need for anything besides entertainment.
Yes, PPGAZ, all these legal cites are aimed at you
scs
Nikki –
No don’t believe me, believe the NYT article I quoted from, linked above. I only know what I read, I wasn’t there. And Jobius, as to questions as to what he actually said, refer to the MSNBC story linked above, if the story is still active on there. The media is reporting the nursing home to be St. Rita. Whether they got it wrong, which would cast the story in a new light, I don’t know.
And as for everyone squabbling over the domains of Feds and State, I think the politicians and lawyers are as confused as the rest of us. After all, the 2004 National Response Law is just a piece of paper with some words on it. Even laws can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. Things maybe need to be ironed out better for the next time around.
Yvonne
Steve said:
So let’s get this straight, from John Cole’s perspective.
There was no military presence in New Orleans or the rest of the damaged area for 4 days. But that’s because they were doing damage assessments, to try to first figure out if they were even needed.
I think I’m getting nauseous from the spin. Pardon me while I go puke..
>>>>>
Before you puke, try to remember this little fact. There was a military AND federal presence in New Orleans in the early hours doing search and rescue. Anyone remember the US Coast Guard? They are both a military and federal agency….
BumperStickerist
Bush was Governor of Texas for eight years. Texas had a Cat IV hurricane, Hurricane Brett, in 1999 which, fortunately, missed Corpus Christi. Bush, better than Blanco, understood the role the State Executive plays in disaster response and, apparently, was trying to ‘splain that role to Blanco.
As for the previous comment about Nagin – Mayor Nagin was in command of the local PD on Wednesday and ordered the redeployment of 1,500 police from Search and Rescue to preventing looting.
So local government was present and able to give orders
Aaron
On C-SPAN I watched Col. Jeff Smith, “Deputy Director of the Louisiana office of Homeland security and emergency management,” praise Mayor Ray Nagin for running his buses in and out of the evacuation area in New Orleans up until the time the hurricane hit.
Unfortunately after the flooding, those buses were cut off from where they were needed. Also finding qualified people to drive the buses that were available was difficult since local bus drivers like everyone else was worried about getting themselves and their families out of the area.
Colonel Smith stated that he couldn’t pull his guardsman off rescue and recovery duty to drive buses.
Some important media coverage worth watching.
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-Timeline-Katrina.wmv
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-Timeline-Katrina.wmv
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Scarborough-bashes-republicans-Katrina.wmv
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/nancy1.wmv
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/The-Daily-Show-Katrina-Disaster.wmv
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Imus-Russert-Katrina.wmv
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