Again, I am all sorts of sure there have been numerous cock-ups by the city, the state, and the feds, and I am sure FEMA has done a number of dumb things (and for the love of God, no more emails about the fireman bit- when things calm down, I am sure there will be an honest accounting of everything that did and did not happen). But this kind of stupidity can’t be allowed to fester:
THE HELL III: The details are almost indescribable:
“Arkansas National Guardsman Mikel Brooks stepped through the food service entrance of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center Monday, flipped on the light at the end of his machine gun, and started pointing out bodies. “Don’t step in that blood – it’s contaminated,” he said. “That one with his arm sticking up in the air, he’s an old man.”
Then he shined the light on the smaller human figure under the white sheet next to the elderly man.
“That’s a kid,” he said. “There’s another one in the freezer, a 7-year-old with her throat cut.”
He moved on, walking quickly through the darkness, pulling his camouflage shirt to his face to screen out the overwhelming odor.
“There’s an old woman,” he said, pointing to a wheelchair covered by a sheet. “I escorted her in myself. And that old man got bludgeoned to death,” he said of the body lying on the floor next to the wheelchair.
Note that these people were not killed by the force of a hurricane, but by the lack of response to it.
Yes- a delay in delivering food and water slit a 7 year old’s throat and bludgeoned an old man in a wheelchair. Thanks Andrew. That statement may be as irresponsible a statement from the press or a blogger that I have ever seen.
And yes, of course, I know I am nothing but a Bush shill for noting that neither Mayor Nagin, Governor Blanco, Michael Chertoff, Mike Brown, or President Bush are responsible for the animals who slit the throat of a 7 yeard old.
DougJ
Colie, you’re doing a heck of a job.
TallDave
Hey! They’re not animals. They’re part of the “resistance.”
Oh sorry, thought this was Iraq thread. My bad.
Krista
For the most part, I agree with you on this thread, John. And I hope that the people who DID commit this violence will be locked away for the rest of their miserable lives.
I will always wonder, however, if maybe fewer people would have been victims of this violence if more authorities had gotten there sooner. Maybe they would have been able to get things under control earlier.
Maybe not. We’ll never know, and maybe it’s pointless to ask.
But I can’t help but wonder.
And I do hope that the people who were in charge of the response will assess their own response and look for ways to improve it. The guys (and gals) on the ground did a fantastic job, and could not have humanly done more than they did. But I really do hope that once this is all over, that the people in charge will start asking themselves how to improve things for the next time, even if that next time doesn’t come for decades.
ppGaz
I don’t think you’re a shill, but honestly, I can’t fathom what the heck you think you are doing at this point.
There’s a lot of pain and outrage out there, and your main interest seems to be in shutting it down.
So that …. what? …. the Uniter can bring us all together?
I don’t know where you think this is heading.
It’s summer, 2006. What will be saying about this time?
Oh, those Bush-haters! Weren’t they awful?
News flash, John: People bashing the president is not the most important thing going on right now. Although, from all indications, you think it is.
And save me the tedium of the usual “You guys disregard everything I say ….” thing. Maybe you should take responsibility for your own ability to be understood?
God forbid, anybody take responsibility for anything these days. Oh heavens, the earth might split open and swallow us all up if that happened.
Vlad
“I will always wonder, however, if maybe fewer people would have been victims of this violence if more authorities had gotten there sooner. Maybe they would have been able to get things under control earlier.”
Bingo.
neil
Andrew Sullivan has a gift for glossing over complicated details in a way that is very soothing when you agree with him and infuriating when you don’t. That said, in this case he does have a point. The power vacuum that the hurricane left in New Orleans had deadly consequences, and the people who should have filled the power vacuum but didn’t should be held responsible for what went on. No, it may not have saved this 7-year-old’s life, but how can we know?
Watcher
I can’t help but think if we simply allowed and encouraged our citizens to arm themselves, this kind of stuff might have been averted. But then again, guns are scary.
So really, this is Bush’s fault.
neil
Watcher, I believe that Louisiana was not a place where it was difficult to arm oneself. At any rate, we did all hear the stories about groups of armed men roaming the streets. Unfortunately, they were not cops or Nat’l Guardsmen.
summr
Yes, a shoot out among thousands of armed citizens as tempers frayed
in the convention center would have made things much, much better.
Good thinking!
p.lukasiak
pathetic…..
after living in a squalid building for nearly a week without food and water and sanitation and medical supplies, it comes as no surprise that people start turning into “animals.”
Your attempt to deflect blame for these deaths from the UTTER DISDAIN FOR THE LIVES OF THESE PEOPLE BY BUSH HIMSELF is disgusting….. There should have been food and water sent 24 hours after Katrina has passed through, and those places should have been completely evacuated within 72 Hours.
Instead, BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS REFUSED TO ALLOW TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WALK ACROSS A BRIDGE TO GET OUT OF NEW ORLEANS FOR FIVE DAYS WHILE NOT SUPPLYING THEM WITH FOOD OR WATER —-
….and you make excuses
Blue Neponset
If there were national guard or army troops in the Convention Center they may have provided enough security to prevent those incidents. Do you disagree with that?
Watcher
There ya go. Guns are scary, so only the criminals and those that would kill 7 year olds should have them, cuz there scary too.
I know, lets keep the idea alive that the government can solve all your problems and protect you at all times, and that you are in no way responsible for your own survival. After all, I’m pretty sure that’s the whole idea behind the democratic party these days.
summr
I’d posted a piece about some of the horror stories coming out of NO being rumors, but clearly some were not. I wonder if any witnesses to the old man and seven year old’s killings have been identified. Justice still needs to be served. Did all 30 people described die from violence?
Cromagnon
The 82nd Airborne troopers who arrived in New Orleans this weekend (6 days after the storm) could of been there within less than 24 hours, if the CinC had so ordered. The 82nd always has a Brigade (about 3000 troops) ready for immediate deployment anywhere in the world
Krista
Yikes. Sorry, I can’t agree with you there. I think after the way everybody’s nerves and tempers were being tested, a lot of people would have been shot for no other reason than that they pissed off the wrong person.
Trent
So Senator Frist says :
as “the White House announced that Bush is asking lawmakers to approve another $51.8 billion to cover the costs of federal recovery efforts.”
Lower barriers. Why does this make me thing of the missing 20 billion in Iraq?
Yes, the money is terribly needed, i just wish the Corrupt-licans weren’t in charge of it.
PotVsKtl
This has got to be the most disingenuous thing I’ve ever seen posted here. Nobody is claiming a lack of food and water led to these deaths. It’a a lack of security. Surely you understand that Mr. Cole?
Watcher
Krista
Would you have shot someone if your nerves were tested? Do you become a homicidal person merely because you are now armed?
Would you have shot those who were killing the examples John posted or those that were shooting at the rescuers?
Does having a gun make one evil, or is it still the actions that you take?
Krista
And just for the record, I have no problem with hunting rifles, if people are taught how to use them correctly, and if they’re stored safely and properly. I don’t think that people in N.O. having handguns would have gotten rid of those violent criminals. I think it would have just resulted in a lot of impulsive violence.
Mike S
Ah yes. The “fuck the poor” mantra favored by the Talk Radio crowd. Let’s get watcher that tax break asap, the poor can eat cake.
Jay
I will always wonder, however, if maybe fewer people would have been victims of this violence if more authorities had gotten there sooner.
Why don’t you wonder how many fewer people would have been victims if Mayor and Governor would have done their jobs and made arrangements to get these people OUT of the city before the hurricane hit?
BTW, John: YOU’RE A TOOL!!
John Cole
The reason a child had her throat slit is because some animal slit it. Period. Quit making excuses for people who kill children and beat the elderly to death.
Otto Man
I’m just echoing what others have said, but that post seems to be saying that if the government had responded sooner with troops on the ground, the looting and violence would have been much less pronounced. And that makes perfect sense to me.
Trent
That was Bush’s re-election platform.
Tractarian
Mr. Cole, lease either 1) follow your own advice, or 2) don’t give it to others. Your choice.
I share your frustration at the misinformation being spread around by partisans of both persuasions. However, Sully has merely presented an eyewitness account of what went on at the Convention Center. We all know it is just that – not a confirmed, verified report, but just an account. Your outrage is understandable but its direction is not.
Do you agree with that conclusion? If not, why not?
Watcher
Ah yes, someone who would put words in my mouth because it does not fit with your worldview Mike S. Keep telling yourself that merely paying taxes absolves you of any responsibility to those that need help. There ya go smart guy, use your head. Keep telling yourself that the poor are inherently different than you. I feel your love man, just feel it.
Keep them sheep. Keep telling them who there enemy is (not you of course) and keep them voting how you want. Or, give them a chance by telling them they are not the victims you would make them out to be. Teach them to fish you condescending asswipe.
PotVsKtl
And with that, you’ve gone totally over the edge. That’s an absolutely unforgivable charge to level at people who have legitimate concerns about the lack of security in New Orleans in the days following the hurricane.
You’ve lost in Mr. Cole. Despicable.
John Cole
No. Because they were killed by an individual who consciously slit the girl’s throat and who consciously beat the elderly man to death.
Krista
Honestly, I’ve never been in a situation remotely like the one in New Orleans, so it’s hard to say. I don’t think that I would have, but I’ve never really had much of a temper anyway. I’m thinking more of people who do have a bit of a temper, who have maybe put a fist through a wall when angry enough, or who do have a tendency to fly off the handle when pushed far enough. I don’t think that a gun turns someone into a killer, if it’s nowhere in their nature. But I think that a gun CAN make the difference between a brute and a killer, given enough provocation.
John Cole
What is fucking despicable is that you think it is perfectly acceptable for people to murder each other, just as long as there are not enough fucking cops or national guard present. Moron.
Jay
The 82nd Airborne troopers who arrived in New Orleans this weekend (6 days after the storm) could of been there within less than 24 hours, if the CinC had so ordered.
It is clearer and clearer that there are plenty of people who do not understand the basic workings of government. The President cannot just order troops into a state on a whim. It is up to the Governor of that state to request such aid. She didn’t.
Jeebus.
Watcher
Krista
Do you believe that a gun, in the right hands, can save a life?
p.lukasiak
This has got to be the most disingenuous thing I’ve ever seen posted here. Nobody is claiming a lack of food and water led to these deaths. It’a a lack of security. Surely you understand that Mr. Cole?
actually, I disagree. When you crowd an enormous number of people into a relatively small space and don’t provide them with food or water, you can expect at least a few of them to act like animals.
It took Cole, one of the biggest cheerleaders for the slaughter of Iraqis before the war, about two years to figure out that he had been lied to, and that the war was not such a grand and glorious exercise after all.
Hopefully, since these are at least americans (although obviously not the kind of Americans — the rich white ones — that Cole cares about) it won’t take him two full years to realize that the catastrophy in New Orleans that occurred AFTER Katrina had passed was not one more sterling example of his Peerless Leader’s humanity and compassion…..
although realistically, since Cole thinks we shouldn’t even see the pictures of the dead in New Orleans in case people start demanding answers from Bush, Cole is probably never going to figure out what happened—he’ll let the thousands of dead poor black people in New Orleans slide right down his memory hole….
PotVsKtl
Something has taken away your ability to think clearly and rationally and in the process, you make fucking disgusting charges against strangers who are concerned about the welfare of these people.
FUCK YOU FOR CLAIMING I DON’T CARE IF PEOPLE GET MURDERED.
You can go ahead and ban me because I won’t be reading anymore of the filth you’ve stooped to writing. Disgusting.
Mike S
What an idiot. Say Watcher, we just had an election. Who was it that claimed that the only people who could protect this country were Bush/Cheney? And how well did they do that?
I’m only condesending to GOP cultists and Talk Radio Bukkakiasts. Both of those descriptions fit you like a glove.
capelza
Was watching Oprah (first time in years I swear!). She was down there, went into the Superdome in the past few days. I said this earlier, but not only was it a hell on earth, but one that was pitch dark ( a sweltering cesspool with armed thugs and murderers in the DARK)…anyway, the Chief of Police was telling about being inside of one of the two major centers, honestly can’t remember which one, and the gangs that were controlling it sussed out who he was and tried to seize him. His own security force was able to get him out.
You know, at first I was pretty critical of the NOPD, but these guys, down from the original 1600 or 2000 (have heard two different numbers) through awols, attrition or those who never made it through the flood…these guys have been through a hell.
Anyway, back to the violence and the thugs who tried to take over the city from cops who at some points were fighting back without ammunition (per the CoP himslef)…sure, food and water wouldn’t have stopped them, but as it has been said above, armed help might certainly have. Who stopped the help I do not know…
Blue Neponset
Who is making excuses for that behavior?
Trent
Wow, it’s funny. All this conflict on this site all because John Cole refuses to say, “Yea, Bush fucked up and should have returned from vacation and sent food and water to New Orleans sooner.”
Instead, we go round and round in circles arguing different sides to it.
Because John Cole thinks that Bush should have stayed on vacation. And that food and water could not have arrived any faster. (Which was 4 days. I could have used UPS Ground to mail them some food.)
Hey, everyone’s entitled to their opinion. I mean, I believe in Intelligent Design.
Which according to John Cole, is such a perposterous idea that i should be considered a “moron”, an “idiot”, a “wingnut” and filed under “General Stupidity.”
Because Intelligent Design runs completely counter to known facts.
I just happen to interpret them differently… ;-)
Watcher
Mike S
Shame you don’t even know the law in the country you live in. The USSC stated quite clearly that the police and government are under no obligation to protect your life. So, who does that leave smart guy?
zzyzx
Not acceptable. Inevitable.
Tractarian
Mr. Cole, are there police in your neighborhood?
And are you being assaulted right now? Robbed? Raped?
Now, do you recognize the causal connection between your two answers?
Andrei
Just imagine for a moment John, what this post would look like if you simply left this paragraph off. Re-read it for yourself and ask yourself what the post says with that last paragraph there, and what it says with that last paragraph not there.
I think there’s a significant difference in the entire tone of the point you are trying to make, and you’ve weakend it by adding that last paragraph in there. Just my opinion.
PotVsKtl
One last time, to reiterate, fuck you right in the ass John Cole for calling me an apologist for baby killers because I question whether those killers might have been stopped had security arrived any sooner.
Un. Fucking. Believable.
capelza
Not disagreeing with you, but is there someplace I can get a cite from? I’d like to have that.
Krista
To quote from my earlier post:
I don’t know if I’m one of the ones that you think is apologizing or making excuses for the ones who committed the violence. Not the impression I meant to give. Nobody is responsible for the violence actually OCCURING, other than those who committed it. However, I can’t help but wonder if the violence might have ended sooner if more troops had been on the ground.
I just think it’s something that the people in charge of the response should think about, for next time.
Mike S
Let them eat cake, right dumb guy?
Zifnab
I think it’s worth noting that all people murdered during the anarchy after the flood were conservatives, and their murders were liberals. Wait, … maybe I got that backwards… No. Um… shit. But I’m sure we can whip it up into a partisan debate somehow. Quick, take a poll and see how many of the hurricane victims voted for Bush in ’00 versus those who voted for him in ’04. Maybe they were killed by the terrorists.
Bottom line, if you find yourself in a city prone to flooding, hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, volcanoes, whatever… and you get caught in the middle of it I think it IS worth noting that you shouldn’t be allowed to kill anybody. That’s a rule people. And I think it transends party lines. No excuses. Unless of course the folks down there deserved what they got. After all, they didn’t evacuate when we told them to.
Watcher
I will admit to fanning the flames rather than attempting to put them out. I will admit that the whole left right thing gets to me at times. For those, I should check myself.
But if one of the primary lessons that this disaster teaches us is not ‘there is no one to save you but yourself’ then we will simply have learned nothing and when it happens again, which it always does, we will be no better off.
Davebo
“What is fucking despicable is that you think it is perfectly acceptable for people to murder each other, just as long as there are not enough fucking cops or national guard present.”
Geez John, if you’re just going to make up bullshit like this to portray others why be so half assed?
Heck, maybe the commenter himself killed the kid? Or better yet, maybe there were National Guardsman at the Convention Center and one of them killed the kid?
That’s it! The death is not due to a lack of response, but to the response itself! Yeah.. that’s the ticket.
You have gone so far over the top of late I think you need to step back a bit. Maybe take a brief hiatus from here and get your head together.
Tractarian
Jeebus indeed.
Please do some rudimentary research – a Google search would suffice – before posting debunked GOP talking points. Thank you.
Harry Atkinson
When a Bushie hears the word “accountability,” his by now instinctual response is to bellow “Bush hater!” And when a Bushie hears “responsibility,” his immediate response is to accuse the speaker of this dread word of trying to make political hay out of the suffering of those victimized by the latest administration screw-up, whatever it might be at that given time.
You see, we’ve been down this road with Bush before. He is incompetent, he is careless about the responsibilities of his office, and he really isn’t all concerned about it. And on occasion the consequences of his cavalier indifference is people die. Lots of them.
Pb
Yep, I think Sully’s in the right here. The response was entirely inadequate, and obviously far too slow to help that little girl and that old man, and likely thousands of others.
That statement may be as irresponsible a statement from a blogger that I have ever seen–you’re off the deep end on this one, Cole.
Trent
Maybe this is a better approach to the argument:
Can anyone name one part of the disaster reponse that BushCo did effectively and responsibly?
Davebo
And Jay, the Governor authorized the use of Federal Troops two days before the storm hit New Orleans.
You should bother reading the retractions and quit getting all your information from “unnamed White House Officials”.
Boronx
Yes- a delay in delivering food and water slit a 7 year old’s throat and bludgeoned an old man in a wheelchair.
I have come to believe that anyone who honestly supported the Iraq war has betrayed a deep stupidity, and I’ve seen very little to disabuse me of that notion.
Try this on for size
“Yes- a delay in police protection cause a 7 week old baby to die of dehydration.”
Watcher
You are an idiot Mike S. Perhaps you should look into remedial reading classes because comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. Teaching them to fish and ensuring they know they are not merely victims is now = let them eat cake? Guess what, you are the problem.
p.lukasiak
re cite…
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-NO.wmv
this is a video report on FOX NEWS, where both Shepard Smith and Geraldo Rivera report that people in the convention center were not being allowed to cross the bridge over to Gretna Louisiana.
(After Katrina had passed, on the instruction of federal officials, people who had stayed behind were told to go to the convention center for evacuation from the city….and were LEFT THERE for five days….)
Steve
I don’t get it. If a crime wave strikes your city, does it concern you at all whether the police should be doing a better job? Would it seem relevant if a large portion of your police force was not on the street because they had been conscripted into active duty in Iraq, or that the police chief was a horse breeder with no law enforcement background? Or would your reaction be something like, “None of that matters, because it would be irresponsible to blame anyone for the crime wave but the criminals”?
Krista
Absolutely. A gun is nothing other than a tool. However, it is an extremely effective tool, and it is very easy to do fatal harm to someone if you have bad intentions, or are overwrought, or have not been trained. And I think a lot of people would have met those last two criteria.
There’s no way to know for sure, is there? Maybe if more people had had guns, they would have been able to deter or dispatch some of those murderous sickos. Or, there might have been tempers lost and more innocent people could have been killed. It’s the whole heart of the gun-control debate.
Watcher
Krista
A gun is like a condom. It is better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it. Words to live, or perhaps die by.
Nikki
John, I may be mistaken, but aren’t you a teacher of some sort? If so, how do you possibly help your students with their critical thinking?
ppGaz
When did this become the anti-murder bathosphere?
People murder each other all the time. People murder each other a few blocks from where I now sit, across the street from the central police station in one of the country’s ten largest cities.
So the fuck what? What does that have to do with the current topics?
Yes, the gratuitous slam in the original post is stupid. But not as stupid as FEMA has been in the last two weeks.
So what’s the point?
capelza
p.lukasiak…
THAT is the thing that has been lost here. In all the sturm and drang over partisan stuff. I have wondered why the folks in the dome didn’t just walk en masse out of there. Becuase they were KEPT THERE WITHOUT ANY HELP while someone sat with their thumb up their ass…THAT delay is the criminal act, I’m sorry, but if you can’t get to the people, knowing the hell they are going through, them for the love of god, let them get themselves out.
Krista
I understand the sentiment behind your saying, and can kind of agree with it…it depends upon your surroundings and how violent they are. But I still can’t help but think that there would have been quite a few fatal incidents due to frayed tempers, exhaustion, and despair.
Davebo
When it comes to Cole and his support for Bush I’m reminded of Homer Simpson sticking the screw driver into the light socket.
b Duh!…
Try it again..
b Duh!
Try it again..
b Duh!
BinkyBoy
With the emergence of the sick individual named Watcher and the attack dog like persistance of Mr. Cole to go after any liberal for trying to point out that lack of response may be why hundreds of people died, I’m out of here.
I know, its pompous for me to announce it, but this is just making me sick. John, you’ve really gone overboard in the last few days, I wish there was something someone could say that would make you realize it, but you’ll just blow this comment off.
Watcher, get help man. You’re a sick, sick individual that will end up blowing up a clinic or murdering liberals because your dog told you so.
Goodbye all, I will look back at my time here with fondness. The arguments, the discussions and the information that I got from here were useful for awhile, just not anymore.
Krista
Just wanted to let you know I’m heading home now, so if I don’t write back for a few hours, it doesn’t mean that I don’t love you. :)
p.lukasiak
Can anyone name one part of the disaster reponse that BushCo did effectively and responsibly?
BushCo effectively deployed 50 newly arrived National Guardmen to stand behind him when Bush finally showed up to give a speech — once Bush left, the Guardmen were given far less critical assignments—like restoring order, rescuing people, etc….
Mike S
No Watcher, you are. It is people like you who have, at every turn, made sure that the leader of your cult is not held responsible for anything. You scream “librul media” whenever things have come to light that show President Bush in a less than heroic light. It is people like you that make sure that any investigation into inaction or misdeeds by this administration are quashed.
And I’ll bet you wanted Clinton impeached because he lied about a blow job. FEMA was a functioning agency in the 90’s. Through cuts and ptron hiring it has become a fiasco. But if you have your way none of that will come to light. Because then your God will be seen for all that he has done, and that might hurt that “permanent Republican majority” that you want so bad.
You are a child, Watcher. A petulant, spoiled child. I wash my hands of you and the many cultists like you.
John Cole
The lack of response is not why the people mentioned by Sullivan died. They died because they were murdered.
Watcher
Krista
You may be right. One thing is for sure, the criminal element who will always victimize those who they see as weaker WILL arm themselves. If those who are to be victimized are armed, then at least the odds are shifted a bit against the criminal. In the end it is your decision to make, unless of course you live in a place like NY City or SF or DC, then apparently the government will make it for you irregardless of what the constitution has to say on the issue.
rilkefan
p.lukasiak: “the rich white ones—- that Cole cares about”
That’s just stupid. John disagrees with you (and me) about aspects of the response, but calling him a racist because of that is lunacy. Retract or lose all credibility with me.
dagon
methinks that john must be engaging in some form of absurdist guerilla theater on this one; posting nonsense and seeing what sort of reactions he gets.
save that, i can only assume that the last threads of his sanity are coming unraveled; so he must shoot the messenger rather than come to slow, sickening terms with an administration that he had his small part in getting and keeping in office.
and before anyone starts saying that i’m part of the ‘blame bush at all cost’ crowd, i’ll state that imho, blame must be applied all around and there is no small amount of caterwauling by those on the left hoping to make political hay out of this (but what the hell do you expect?). BUT, to glom on to such minutae and feigning (yes feigning) such outrage at every diversionary missive in the hopes of what?…absolving the federal government of it’s role in this mess?….is beyond pathetic.
mr. cole, it’s not the things that you choose to get outraged about that have been so damnable in the last few days, but the things that you have chosen not to get outraged by.
peace
Trent
What if they were murdered on Friday?
Vlad
“Quit making excuses for people who kill children and beat the elderly to death.”
No one here is doing this. Criminals are responsible for their crimes.
What happened was the equivalent of a prison guard who falls asleep on duty, allowing murderers and rapists to go free into society and commit more rapes and murders. The breakdown in law and order is what provided the killers with the opportunity to kill, and probably in some cases the motive as well.
When you make posts like the one you made here, you’re making excuses for the criminally negligent.
Watcher
Mike S
Cry like a bitch and change the subject. I don’t hate liberals and can find much fault in the current man sitting in the WH. Do what you do man, ignore what I say in favor of some other shit. Keep thinking that your taxes alone are enough, that you needent get your hands dirty and the that big shining government is going to save you, even when they tell you to your face they won’t. Disregard the truth in favor of some delusional view of the world you have manifested in your head. Above all else, hate the republicans for surely your man dean tells you how evil they are.
Buh Bye binky you pathetic piece of crap. Run home and cry how the mean ol republican interrupted your nice hate fest.
You both are over the edge, and will look forward to meeting up with you after you have joined the current incarnation of the weather underground or whatever you losers will be calling your delusional hate-fest against the man.
Northman
I won’t make any exuses for people who kill children and beat the elderly to death. They are animals and I cannot justify their actions regardless of the circumstances.
However, if a cop or a guardsmen (or anyone else) had been around to stop said animals before they killed, they would still be animals, but at least the kid would be alive. Slapping down people trying to make that point does make you sound like a shill, though I’m confused as for who.
The breakdown of security which allowed those animals free reign is just part of the piss-poor disaster response and I don’t understand why you seem more angry at those who are pointing it out than those who were responsible.
Take your own advice for a bit and actually read the comments before making such a ridiculous statement.
Jay
Christ, you people are so ignorant. The troops being sent in are not allowed to function, by law, in a law enforcement capacity. That specifically must be requested by the Governor, who refused to do so because she felt it would be the equivalent of martial law.
Vladi G
I take it from this, John, that no official serving in any public safety capacity can EVER be held responsible, then. In John Cole’s dictionary, someone must have torn out the page with the word “negligence”.
Newsflash, John. We aren’t arguing about degrees of guilt. Finding that the negligence of one party contributed to the murder of another does not excuse the murder or the murderer. Convicting the muderderer does not preclude the discovery of the negligence that led to the conditions in which the murder was committed.
Watcher
One other thing you paranoid freak Mike S. I was dead set against the impeachment of Clinton. Even though his adultress ass should still be getting kicked by his wife and daughter.
Matt
Come on, John. It’s possible that there are both direct causes and indirect factors in those deaths. Nobody’s trying to say that Bush, Brown or Cherthoff wielded the knife. They’re saying that they did not act to provide security in a situation that anyone with any knowledge of human nature could have predicted would deteriorate quickly. There’s culpability there. Not the same level that the killer has, obviously, but culpability nonetheless.
p.lukasiak
That’s just stupid. John disagrees with you (and me) about aspects of the response, but calling him a racist because of that is lunacy. Retract or lose all credibility with me.
I’m not calling John a racist, I’m just saying that he has “other priorities” (i.e. acting as an apologist for an administration that clearly does care only about rich white people) than ensuring that poor black people aren’t left to die of starvation, dehydration, disease, and the complete breakdown of civil society that occurs when people are massed together to experience starvation, dehydration, and disease.
Zifnab
Stop. Think. Analyize that thought. Why am I paying money to an organization of democratically elected representatives who’s sole purpose is to protect my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness if they can and do “tell [me] to [my] face they won’t.” If FEMA isn’t going to do its job than dismantle the damn thing and give me a refund. If the Department of Homeland Security isn’t going to do IT’S job, dismantle the bastard and give me another refund. Comments like these beg the question, “Exactly what am I paying for with my tax dollars?” Cause the way it’s shaping up, I’d most rather throw my change into a Clintonian or Carterian welfare state where the government coddles me like a baby for the price of half my paycheck, then a Bushatonian “take the hurricane like a man” big business religious oligarchy.
sean
…yet i will write a post about something that may or may not have happened. and i will use this post to bash my readers who do not agree with me.
good job, John
slide
Don’t understand how such a competent and experienced FEMA could have made so many mistakes:
Is anyone on the right outraged by this? Anyone? Hello? Cole? Any fuckin one of you apologists have any problems with this? What a bunch of shills. Disgraceful.
nyrev
So, you think that 7-year-old would have had her throat slit in the Convention Center if there hadn’t been a hurricane? Do you think she would have had her throat slit if she had been evacuated to Austin? Was she being stalked by the throat-slitter? Would he have followed her into a National Guard helocopter and slit her throat in front of a bunch of National Guardsmen?
Because otherwise, you’re not making a whole lot of sense.
No kidding, the murderer killed her. Murderers killed all the murder victims at the Convention Center. But an adequate response to the disaster could have got some of those murder victims out of the Convention Center while they were still just hurricane survivors, or put more trained people on the ground to protect the 7-year-old girls from the throat-slitters.
p.lukasiak
Christ, you people are so ignorant.
there was NO prohibition against using National Guard troops for SECURITY purposes—-indeed, before Katrina hit, some National Guard troops were used to screen those who entered the Superdome, ensuring that they weren’t carrying any weapons.
So, before you go around calling people “ignorant”, take your head out of your ass….
Davebo
Meanwhile with the grownups in charge…
House and Senate lawmakers said they will proceed with a package of $70 billion in tax cuts and $35 billion in entitlement spending cuts, including as much as $10 billion out of a Medicaid program they simultaneously were suggesting expanding.
Zifnab
Wait. Where is that money coming from? I am a bit confused. I thought we were running in deficate spending.
Watcher
Zifnab
A good question. There are many things you are paying for, too many to get into here. I am not lying to you when I say that the USSC ruled they (police/govt) have no obligation to protect your life or property. It is, what it is. It is your government, so it is in your best interest to seek the answers to the questions you have.
Mike H
John: You have the best blog on the net, bar none, but I have to say I am almost completely flummoxed by your statements here. Are you saying that in a normal situation, if a city’s mayor closed down all their police functions and had no police or security presence anywhere in the city (to save money to spend on some good or bad cause), and there was a huge increase in crime (as we know there would be), that the mayor would have zero responibility for the crime wave because it is all the criminals fault? That is the logic are following here.
Certainly it may be the actual criminal’s moral responsibility for his crimes, but the mayor must be held to some sort of political responsibility for the effect if his actions, right? I would have thought that was unarguable, but now you seem to be arguing the government has no responsibility to provide basic security for the people and is not to be blamed at all for not doing so?! You really believe this? I know you are saying you do, but I just can’t believe you actually mean it.
Trent
Cronies. The spirit of conservatives! Gotta love ’em. Proud to be a Republican!
Hey, maybe John has been Armstrong Williams-ized. ;-)
chadwig
John you are so wrong. In any security void, the violent and aggresive sociopaths will assert themselves. The responsibility for providing security was on the President. He shares the blame for any death that resulted from his inaction. Of course the animal who killed the child is a murderer and should be locked away forever, but as the head of the executive branch Bush is ultimately reponsible for keeping that child safe, which he did not. In fact he may have been strumming his guitar or napping on his last day of a five week vacation when that child had it’s throat cut.
Now he wants to ban the press from entering NOLA. What excuse do you have for them now John? Is that for the best John?
Apologist for incompetance is your mantle.
Watcher
How far the democrats have come from the days when Kennedy stated clearly ‘ask not what your country can do for you, but rather what you can do for your country’.
Are we really that far gone? Is it all about what they will do for me, with my only obligation being to pay my taxes? That is not what made this country great, but it is what will destroy it.
Clever
One question to that would be, “Why were they murdered?”…which is considerably hard to answer since [as far as is known] there are no suspects or even a hint of a criminal investigation.
Another question would be, “How were they allowed to be murdered?”…which has a more recognizeable possible answer: lack of law and order.
Finally, the question to that would be, “Why was there no law and order?”
p.lukasiak
Is anyone on the right outraged by this? Anyone? Hello? Cole? Any fuckin one of you apologists have any problems with this? What a bunch of shills. Disgraceful.
why are you asking John about this? After all, none of these political hacks slit the throat of a seven year old. So what if dozens of patients died at Charity Hospital because FEDERAL OFFICIALS TURNED AWAY OFFERS OF HELP BY HUNDREDS OF PRIVATE BOATERS TO HELP EVACUATE THE HOSPITAL AND OTHERS STRANDED BY FLOOD WATERS…..
These guys didn’t pull any plugs on these patients — they didn’t need to, since there was no electricity…
Mike S
You moron, if you aren’t Darrell you must be his idiot son.
I’ve been through earthquakes and riots. I brought people into my home in one and took refuge at a friends home in the other.
You, my idiotic boy, seem to think 3 days is an acceptable amount of time for the President to begin to react. You seem to think that the taxes we do pay should account for nothing.
Continue being a professional bukkake recipient for your heroes on talk radio you fucking twit. Smile as their spew lands on your face. And be sure that people like you are becoming the face of the new Republican Party. You can be like your Lt. cultist Hannity and claim “perspective” needs to be shown as people look at all the prespective they need to see.
I love idiots like you. You make my job all the easier. Whenever someone even tries to use the “compassionate conservative” label, I will direct them to selfish fat asses like you.
sean
LOL, Mike S…
slide
How about this my right wing apologists? Any of this bother you? or just business as usual? Any outrage? Any? A smidgen? nothing? Nothing?
Anybody on the right want to comment? Fine and dandy? No fuckin problem? He’s doing his best? Heck of a job?
How dishonest are you? Cole can search and search and find a story about a Walmart truck that may, just may, not be 100% true and wow… big fuckin news…! Evidence of the lying left. But on stuff like this? La dee da…. hooo hummm…. And they dont’ want to be called apologists? Please.
Zifnab
That’s the kicker, though. What do you do when your government lies to you? I was under a very convincing assertion that FEMA stood for Federal Emergency Management Agency. It even says it on their web page Yet they have failed to manage the emergency as their name indicates. I was thoroughly convinced that my tax dollars went to police officers who were required to “protect and serve” my well-being. Town of Ossining Police Department Mission Statement Now I’m told that such protection and service is not available to me.
I’m afraid at this point I have no where to turn to for reliable information on what my government is required to do for me in exchange for my yearly contribution of funds.
Jim Caputo
I’m not. I don’t trust that we’ll get anything better than we got from the 9-11 commission. An investigation that takes too long and results in nothing substantial except to produce a document very, very few will read.
How many times are you gonna break out your violin for this number?
Zifnab
Oh seriously. Shut up. I’d love to dig him up and ask him, but I think common sense dictates that Kennedy was not refering to drowning hurricane victims when he made that statement.
ppGaz
I’m tempted to say, well, then they aren’t paying him enough. But that would be a cheap shot. That would be wrong.
That said, I am totally underwhelmed by the obsession with this “blame-failure” meme, while other equally vapid memes have been ignored or even propped up.
How about the “world better off without Saddam” meme? Which is basically a cover, a “ends justify means” excuse for the fact that the original war-memes turned out to be deficient for lack of any truth behind them (WMDs, and the Al Qaeda “connection”, and the “mushroom cloud”).
Where was the outrage over those goddamned bullshit memes?
If somebody is going to pretend to be the fucking meme police, maybe a little intellectual integrity would be in order.
Maybe, in a parallel, better, universe.
Otto Man
I thought conservatives were all about law and order? When did this Rumsfeldian “shit happens” attitude take over?
Of course, the criminals who did the crime deserve the highest blame. I haven’t seen one person here claim otherwise. What we’re saying is that maybe — just maybe — if there had been enough police or troops on the ground, the criminals wouldn’t have had the chance to do those things.
If you believe otherwise, you should call for the abolition of the police in your town and fend for yourself.
Shygetz
So now the government does not have the responsibility to maintain law and order? Well gee, John, thanks for pointing that out. Now our police can just go home and play poker. If there’s a murder, it can only be the fault of the murderer. If there’s a terrorist attack, it can only be the fault of the terrorist. Government has NO responsibility to the citizenry at all–we can take care of ourselves. Moron.
Clever has a point. Part of the government’s job is to ensure the domestic tranquility. All reports suggest that the security in New Orleans was not sufficient to ensure domestic tranquility. I think that this does point a finger at the administrations involved (local, state, and federal) for not supplying adequate protection for its citizenry. The fact that a murderer committed the murder does not excuse the fact that there was no authority there to protect the victim from the murderer.
PotVsKtl
I am so disgusted. My pet sheep just woke up, and I am going to spend some time with her now.
Good-bye.
Watcher
Mike S
You are a sheep. No one is going to save you. You have an active imagination, in that I have not said anything about Bush other than I can find great fault with him. So your delusion is apparent, you think all conservatives are the same person. I don’t listen to talk radio, but I can see that the problem is you. You think that individuals are no longer responsible for their own destiny. You sit around and whine that that mean old Bush and his nasty collection of republicans is ruining this country. You are a pathetic partisan ass. Keep the hate alive, keep telling the people that they are sheep to be fleeced. You are losing this country and you can’t even see it. Baaaaaaaaa.
You whiney ass bitchboy. Try growing a pair you pathetic loser.
I tell people to save themselves. What the hell are you telling them? Big Brother will save you? That is a lie, and you know it. It is a lie when donks are in charge and it is a lie now. The only part of the government who is even capable of saving you is the military, and they will gladly tell you what I am telling you now. Save yourself, because they might not get to you in time.
Watcher
Says the bitch who cries that it would be better to wrap himself in a cradle to grave nanny state. Baaaaaaa. Here come the shears idiot. You can have that you useless tool, there are plenty of other countries who will give you just that.
slide
Watcher has the fuckin gall to ask this of Democrats?
When this is what being Republican is all about?
Yeah, ask not.
Otto Man
Anyone still have doubts that Watcher is Darrell?
Watcher
slide
Whine, whine, whine. Whatever you do, disregard the words that Kennedy gave us. Ignore, deflect, refute. Take no responsibility for your own actions, and above all else make one half of the country your sworn enemy. As long as you keep paying your taxes you will be fine. Theres a good boy.
Watcher
Otto
I’m not Darrell. Go smoke some more dope you pathetic hippy. The world is a much nicer place through the bong filled haze.
Zifnab
Bullshit and bullshit. The government is not the US Military. Or if it is, we’re living in one fucked up country. We shouldn’t expect the federal administration to protect us from psycho-killers and child pornography 100% of the time. We acknowledge that people are human and falliable. That said, we still expect those people we elect as our leaders to make the effort to protect us from a cruel world. We expect an honest effort. No one is calling on Bush to magic away the hurricane or to resurrect the dead of New Orleans. They’re asking him to do what millions of Americans have already done independently and through organizations like the Red Cross. They’re asking for him to send aid, only with the weight of the government behind him. And he’s not doing it.
Why not just elect the Red Cross to be our national governing body? They seem to be doing a good job, or at least trying to. Why not toss aside this shithole Commander-in-Chief and put a man with some balls in office? Someone who fucking tries.
I’m not asking for our government to work miracles, I’m just asking for them to get up and do something. I paid a solid chunk of change for it. In a consumer society, I demand product for my purchase.
BumperStickerist
Katrina made landfall early morning Monday, August 29th.
So, that’s all day on the 29th
then Tuesday, August 30th comes and goes
then the sun rises on Wednesday, August 31st
and sets.
So, on Thursday September 1st, we have this:
This “List of Buses and Drivers and Peace Officers” seems to be one of those ‘Good Things to Have Prepared in Advance’ Unless there was some special FEMA-provided form or service which precluded Governor Blanco from having these preparations in place.
Once you couple Governor Blanco’s STUNNING lack of awareness of her job with Mayor Nagin’s role as an on-the-scene commander, you end up with get this:
Mayor Nagin’s Role issuing orders / coordinating effortts.
{world socialist web site chosen intentionally}
That’s two-to-three days after Katrina made landfall.
Watcher
I made that very suggestion to my wife last night. They seem to have their shit together more than FEMA, so why not replace FEMA with them? Only, aren’t they a religous orginization.
The government will try. It will fail as much as it succeeds, it is in it’s nature to do so. Your destiny is yours and yours alone and you simply cannot cede it to someone who cannot even seem to find their pants half the time.
rilkefan
“I’m not calling John a racist, I’m just saying that he has “other priorities” (i.e. acting as an apologist for an administration that clearly does care only about rich white people) than ensuring that poor black people aren’t left to die of starvation, dehydration, disease, and the complete breakdown of civil society that occurs when people are massed together to experience starvation, dehydration, and disease.”
I have less reason to believe you care about starvation etc than to believe that John cares, since I’m better acquainted with him. He thinks A->Z, you (and I) think B->Z; you can say he’s wrong about A vs B, but you can’t (in good faith) say he doesn’t care about Z. You’re making as bad an argument as those who say “A->Z therefore those pushing B (e.g., by blaming Bush) don’t care about Z, just political power.”
And in my book making the argument as you did is to accuse him of racism, compounding the sin of illogic.
Ironically, John is making the same sort of mistake about that girl (B&C->Z but he’s saying “only C->Z matters, the B people don’t care about C or Z”.)
I hope you both come to your senses.
Otto Man
Sounds like something straight out of the Bush playbook.
Oh, well, this part has got to go. Cut the taxes more and more, and then everything will be fine, right? We must end the estate tax now, or else Paris Hilton will have to find a job. Presumably in the porn industry.
I find it really funny that Watcher/Darrell is invoking Kennedy’s call for sacrifice in defense of this president. You know, the one who is adverse to sacrifice of any kind. The one who told Americans that in the wake of 9/11, they should go shopping. The one who thinks tax cuts are warranted during wartime. The one who never holds anyone in his own administration accountable for anything.
He’s somehow the embodiment of sacrifice? Riiiight.
Matt
Um, no. They’re not.
Watcher
Otto
Who is defending the president? You should look more closely. My message is simple, if my delivery bothers you, then you have bigger problems. You seem to be obsessed with Bush, and given your follow up with Paris Hilton, I am not sure it is healthy. Is Bush the only politician you know of? Does the sun rise and set in this man’s ass, or is he merely one of the problems?
Tax cuts are good. The rich are not hurt by taxes, it is the poor and middle class who are. Don’t be a sheep. Think. Kennedy, who you seem to love (same as I) was a BIG tax cut guy. Look up why, because if you won’t believe the right when they tell you, perhaps you will believe the left.
Otto Man
Let’s see — the same invective, the same rage, even some of the same misspellings. Could’ve fooled me. (It’s ‘hippie,’ Darrell. Hippie. If you’re going to call mid-30s, married, 401k-holding homeowners here names, at least get it right.)
Sure, Darrell and Watcher are different people. And yet, much like Superman and Clark Kent, when one’s around, the other’s long gone.
(Cue sudden Darrell appearance in 3, 2, 1 …)
Watcher
Matt
I looked it up, you are right. The cross is what fooled me.
DougL
Gee, so I wonder why all those signatories signed of on the National Response Plan
Apparently somebody forgot to clue them in that government is under no obligation…
A particularly relevant part of that would be the section labeled “Proactive Response to Catastrophic Events”. Certainly looks to me like that section justifies, if not encourages action on the part of the federal government without requiring strict adherence to protocol.
Whether you personally believe that it’s government’s obligation to protect is beside the point. The point is that the current federal government’s position is that public safety is its responsibility, particularly in Incidents of National Significance (which the NRP specifically states includes hurricanes).
So, maybe, in a fit of delirium all those signatories signed off on the NRP despite the government really not having an obligation to protect. December 2004 is such a long time ago; who knew what they were really thinking.
Oh, well, nobody’s perfect. Lets let the NRP signatories slide for the sake of argument and continue on, as you suggest, that government has no obligation. How do you explain the fact that the president declared Hurricane Katrina an incident of national significance. As far as I’m aware, I haven’t heard any reports of the president’s arm being twisted to force him to make that declaration.
Really, the NRP signatories lost their minds for a day and they signed off on something obligating the government to something that they really shouldn’t have. Seems like the next easiest step is to not declare Katrina an incident of national significance. Seems an easy way to lawyer-out of something that you claim isn’t government’s responsibility.
But the president’s administration officials did sign off on the NRP and the president did declare Katrina an incident of national significance.
I am NOT saying that city and state officials in LA bear no responsibility for the events leading up to and following Katrina. Clearly they bear responsibility. However, I will not stand by while apologists suggest that the federal government — particularly FEMA and the incompetents running it (by the way, who appointed them?) — somehow bears no responsibility.
Watcher
Well Otto, I can only tell you that I am not Darrell. You can believe whatever you want, like perhaps a 401K or home is going to be enough. Perhaps you believe that the old rules still apply. If so, that is why you are a sheep.
Practice it. Baaaaaaaaaa.
Otto Man
Darrell, when Kennedy cut taxes, he dropped the top rate from 91 to 65. In other words, the rate he dropped it to was about twice the rate that Bush cut it to.
And at the same time, Kennedy pushed for an activist role in government, increased anti-poverty legislation, civil rights intervention, aid to higher education, etc. etc. Bush cut taxes and then pushed the benefits to his buddies.
Alright, I’m done. I vowed not to respond to Original Recipe Darrell, and I’m not going to respond to Extra Crazy Darrell either, no matter what he calls himself.
Watcher
When Kennedy was president, you could still count on the company you worked for to be loyal to you. How’s that going now?
SeesThroughIt
John, I hope you can agree with at least this much:
There has been across-the-board failure. Republicans and Democrats on the local, state, and federal level all had a hand in this mess, and the failures of one side (say, the mayor of New Orleans) do not excuse or absolve the failures of other sides, (say, the president of the United States).
That said–and if we agreed on the previous paragraph, we may start to part company here–I do find it disturbing that Bush & Company got elected in no small part due to pushing the idea that they would protect America and keep it safe while their opponents would fail to do that. As Keith Olberman said in this surprisingly on-point commentary, the people who claimed they would protect us from terrorist attacks can’t even protect us from the biological hazard that is standing water.
“Elections have consequences,” as hard-line right-wingers like to trumpet when talking about things like judicial nominations. Yes, elections do have consequences. And if you want to crow about that–and how if Democrats want things done their way, then they should win elections–then you also need to accept the negative consequences of winning elections. When disaster strikes and your response is to go play guitar, preach to a Potemkin Village (sorry…”town hall”) about Medicare, and give one of the most insultingly clueless press conferences/photo ops of recent memory, then you need to deal with your own ineptitude. I thought the GOP was supposed to be “the party of personal responsibility.” Compare and contrast that ideal with “Brownie, you’re doing a heck of a job.”
SeesThroughIt
Sorry, the link in the above post should be this one. I dunno what happened there.
Also: A bong-filled haze? A haze filled with bongs? Now that’s something I’ve gotta see.
Watcher
Um yeah, you see if you take… No. It made sense at the time. Personally, I think you should just roll joints.
Phil Smith
It’s been six days since Cole promulgated his new comment policy, and I can’t see a bit of difference.
At any rate, I’m curious about a couple things.
One, is anyone actually claiming that the NOPD wasn’t still in NO? Because they were, you know. They were not up to the job.
Two, when did it become a liberal (as I infer most of the critics here would self-identify) tenet that military occupation of civilian areas in peacetime is a good thing? Were you advocating for the imposition of martial law during the LA Rodney King riots, for example? Somehow, I doubt it. And rightly so — military force used against civilians is not something that a free society wants to employ until no other option exists. Or is that only in foreign countries that we’re supposed to exercise that discretion?
The fact of the matter is that the exact same people who are making the most noise here would have been making the exact same amount of noise if Bush had ordered the 82nd to airdrop into NO on Tuesday. But instead of shrill cries of “incompetent” we’d be treated to shrill cries of “fascist” or “racist”. And before any imbecile decides to accuse me of constructing a strawman, here are some examples from these very cyberpages:
9-2:
There was a great deal more commentary to the effect that “saving folks from drowning is the only priority” and “the disorder is being overstated” and so on.
scs
Okay, I don’t know if anyone mentioned it here before, but I heard a lady from the Red Cross explain why no food and water went in to the convention center and highways, etc. Apparently she said the Red Cross was ready to truck them in, but they weren’t allowed to by STATE authorities such as the State Office of Homeland Security. She had the impression that the state authorities didn’t want to create a magnet for more evacuees in those areas and instead wanted to ship them out of there.
jobiuspublius
I expect a cover up.
Literally, false. The information supplied does not say anything about time of death. He could have found a better way to make his case.
nyrev
Ah, but the hurricane didn’t kill these people. Murderers did.
DougL
According to the American Red Cross on their web site under Disaster FAQs (used to be, anyway at one point, probably delinked off the main Disaster FAQ page at this point due to being dated — I’m not sure) Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?
Steve S
Nobody is saying Bush is responsible for these deaths.
They are saying Bush is responsible for not responding to the disaster in a timely manner.
I wish you’d stop distorting the argument, it just makes you look like an idiot.
scs
Okay SteveS, respond to this off the site that DougS supplied:
DougL
I’m not sure if that was directed at me, but I wasn’t aware that I was “distorting” anything. I haven’t even stated anything one way or the other about whether I believe Bush is “responsible for these deaths”.
scs stated something vaguely attributed and I simply posted a link to authoritative information to support what scs posted.
I was pretty clear in my post upthread that the president and FEMA clearly bear their share of responsiblity for their poor handling of this situation (FEMA/DHS leadership for being incompetent; and the president for appointing the incompetents given the fact that neither Brown nor Chertoff has any qualifications for emergency management).
scs
Once again, I want to say that that Red Cross web site is HUGE! Why isn’t anyone discussing this? Now we know the reason and who to blame, for at least that one big failing.