Really. I am sorry you lost your house and everything, but you are just a dick, Dr. Ben Marble.
Also at the DKos (this must be Dkos Friday here), this diary on disaster preparedness. Personally, I will take the new fashionably easy route to disaster preparedness. I am not going to prepare at all, and when the shit hits the fan, I will just just get on the horn to the feds and tell them that “I need everything you have got.” And if they don’t get there fast enough or to my liking, or find my request a little vague, I’ll just have to hit them right in the polls.
(Consider this an open flame war thread)
Ned Raggett
C’mon, man, *20* number one songs!
(My problem is that his insults weren’t creative enough.)
Douglas
This guy isn’t worth spending any time on.
vnjagvet
Watching the tape of the VP’s droll response to Doc Dick’s epithets was worth the month’s cable bill. He said something to the effect of “I think I heard that before”. Clearly referring to his Leahy confrontation. Pretty quick, and not what the good Doc expected.
Jim Caputo
Go fuck yourself, Mr. Cole. Go fuck yourself.
Yeah, he should have shown some compassion for Dick. After all, Dick had to cut his vacation short and get back to Washington 5 days after the hurricane hit. And I’m sure doing a photo-op in a disaster zone is inconvenient. Yeah, Cheney deserves our respect, doesn’t he?
DougJ
I really don’t see the need to attack people who lost their houses in the hurricane. That goes for Trent Lott and this guy. I don’t care which side you’re on — if you lost your house, or a family member, I’m cutting you slack. I guess that makes me a bleeding heart.
ppGaz
I don’t think there was a huge cause-effect thing between the loss of the house, and the yelling at Cheney.
My impression was that the man just took the opportunity to yell at Cheney. For that, I take him to be a mensch and a hero. I consider Cheney to be dirt, and if I had the chance to tell him to go f**k himself, a phrase that he himself uses and apparently is quite proud of, I certainly hope that I would make good use of the opportunity.
The good doctor is not a “dick”, he’s a citizen expressing himself and AFAIC anyone who calls him a name for doing it is just full of crap.
Bruce from Missouri
Why is he a dick? Cheney deserves way more than that. Since we can’t hang him in the middle of the Washington Mall, cursing him out is a beginning at least. He can’t start burning in Hell soon enough.
Bruce
Mike S
Poor, poor Dick.Someone was mean to him by using his own words against him. And while this guy was first finding out that his home was lost, where was Dick? Appearently looking for a multi million dollar home on the Atlantic coast.
Jim Caputo
Did anyone see the video of Laura
StepfordBush calling the storm “Hurricane Corrina”?She must’ve spent a lot of time comtemplating the suffering of the affected people, huh? And she didn’t just mistate the name once, but twice. Her compassion knows no bounds. What a dick!
slide
John Cole:
No need to go through all that trouble. If you are a republican you dont’ even need to have the “shit hit the fan” just stick your hand out and flunky Brownie will give you some of my money:
ahhhh…. don’t you just love how Republicans run the government?
John Cole
Really DougJ- you a liberal?
BumperStickerist
I wouldn’t do that. Hanging him will only make Cheney angry.
Anyway, This house manages to combine the perfect mixture of engineering talent and a fairly strong
survivalist,preparedness mindset.ppGaz
Really, John Cole — you think Dick Cheney is a “conservative”?
slide
why? because John Cole says so thats why. It’s his blog remember. That makes him dick judge.
RSA
John, you wouldn’t be making a pun, now, would you? After all, it was a Dick who originally made that phrase famous.
On disaster preparation, fafblog has the best emergency manual I’ve seen. My favorite section is about making an origami rescue helicopter, complete with illustrated instructions, which ends with, “For best results crease edges sharply. Carries up to four passengers weighing half an ounce each or eight passengers weighing a quarter ounce each.”
jg
Beat me to it RSA. I was going to say he forgot to captialize ‘dick’.
jobiuspublius
No, that would be Cheney. It’s on his birth certificate, so it’s official.
Selling the video on ebay for personal gain is sorta uncool. But, hey, disaster profiteering is in and he just got a master class.
RSA
Apparently ebay agrees; the link reads that the item has been removed by ebay.
John Cole
Bumper- That house wouldn’t have been very useful in New Orleans.
jobiuspublius
And I thought nature’s electro shock treatment was the only cure, but, apparently hurricanes work too.
BumperStickerist
but that mindset would have helped.
Personally, I think New Orleans can be rebuilt rather quickly with only minor changes to their existing building codes.
Just require all residences to have a jonboat, pair of oars, and three days rations in the attic.
jobiuspublius
lol, 2 birds one stone. Nice.
Ancient Purple
So let me get this right.
Mr. Cole has his knickers in a twist because someone told Dick Cheney to fuck off, and yet had not a word to say about the fact that the Secret Service detained the man for 20 minutes simply because he told Cheney to fuck off.
Feel free to freshen up your sense of priorites before Autumn arrives.
jobiuspublius
Oops, hehe, I totally misread that. I thought it was a snipe at Darth and Marble.
Yeah, I prefer a yellow submarine to a below sea level fortress.
demimondian
Personally, I’m a fan of this level of security. Stay above ground when it’s flooding; hide out when it’s raining death fromthe sky. Perfection in all climates.
tBone
Why would anyone get their knickers in a twist about that? The Secret Service are serious dudes – if I told the Vice President of the United States to go fuck himself, I wouldn’t expect a pat on the head and a cookie.
And while I would normally applaud someone giving the Big Dick a taste of his own medicine, listing the tape on eBay just ruins it. Way to make yourself look like a publicity-seeking douchebag, Dr. Ben.
Kimmitt
Yeah, I’m pretty okay for the 20 minute detention, though I’m not thrilled about the fact that he’s probably on a terrorist watch list at this point.
You and me both, brah. I’ll forgive any number of lapses of judgement in private citizens these days.
bains
Checking the sympathy meter…
nope, hasn’t moved.
Lived in Gulfport, the face smashed by the Tyson-on-steriods right hook that was Katrina.
empathetic for his loss perhaps, but no sympathy for his treatment at the hands of the SS after telling the VP to…
Bob
Disaster Preparedness?
“Well, the levees will probably break anyway, so fuck ’em. Maybe it’ll happen after I’m out of office and it’ll land in Hillary’s lap.”
“Conservatives” and “libertarians” have this problem about just what you can expect from government and just what you have to do for yourself, like build your own levee around your house. Sorry, these old theories don’t do much good in industrialized urban societies. Quaint, they are, and they offer excuses for the greedheads to rip off the rest of us, but really, not very much in touch with how the world works.
jobiuspublius
What I find fascinating is the idea that individuals banding together to have a business or a baby, that’s ok, anything else and you are a spawn of satan.
ppGaz
I’m not. What law was broken?
slide
Now THIS is a DICK:
.
jobiuspublius
Someone is blogging “Blogging the evacuees at the Reliant Astrodome and George R. Brown Convention Center”. DeHammer makes an appearance.
Sojourner
John finds the oddest things to get in a snit about. Telling Cheney to go Cheney himself is mild compared to the blood on Cheney’s hands.
slide
More dicklike comments:
Whew…. come on all you lefties, you got a long long way to go to catch up with all the right wing stupidity. .
John Cole
Sojourner- I am not ina snit. This was an open flame war thread, and I started it. Personally , I don;t care what he said to Cheney (and neither, for that matter, did Cheney), but the whiny dKos journal was well worth some derision.
Sojourner
John:
My apologies. It’s hard to tell these days.
Ancient Purple
Neither would I, but I also don’t expect American citizens being detained for cursing at the VP either.
Last I checked, the First Amendment meant that I could call Cheney a fucker to his face. Which Amendment is it that allows the Secret Service to detain me for doing so?
jobiuspublius
Scarborough finds a colonel to say everybody FUBAR-D. Via Dailly Howler.
DougJ
John, you’ve really become a jack ass in the past week. Frankly, this site bores most of your readers. You’re a good sport, though, I’ll give you that. And your jack assedness is part of your charm. But you might want to think about dialing the jack ass quotient back a little bit.
ppGaz
No possibility that there’s a touch of Peanuts Envy going on here?
I’m just asking.
(Apologies to the Planters company).
tBone
I really have no idea on the law regarding this, but I’ve always thought that the Secret Service has fairly wide latitude when it comes to the safety and security of the Prez/Vice Prez. I assume they could come up with a justification that would pass legal muster in this case. Maybe I assume wrong.
Bernard Yomtov
Bullshit. If you don’t care why call him a dick because of it? Is it just possible some of the comments have shown you you were wrong?
jobiuspublius
This guy called Lieberman’s office and is livid. That’s what I like.
ppGaz
Lieberman is a dick.
tBone
Yep. But, to be fair, you could insert almost any random politician’s name in place of Lieberman and the sentence still works.
DougJ
Lieberman is worse than most.
He’s supposed to be a pain in the ass to the president’s nominees. That his job. Half the problem here is the Dems in the Senate don’t want to do their job and give the president’s nominees a hard time. They’re afraid they’ll be criticized. Well, that’s their job, to be a pain in the ass and get criticized for it. If they don’t like it, they can quit and go work as lobbyists. If Lieberman is so afraid of looking like a bad guy for roughing people like Brown up a little bit, he should find another line of work.
I’ve always hated him. He’s the reason I voted for Bush in 2000.
tBone
I thought that was John’s job.
ppGaz
{sigh} Under the No Good Deed Goes Frigging Unpunished Around Here rule ….
Lieberman is a dick ….. among dicks. A dick’s dick. A standard against which all dicks shall henceforth be judged.
KC
Hey, is anybody at all concerned about that Padilla ruling? I don’t really like the idea of the President being able to throw citizens away indefinitely. I’m not suggesting Padilla is a good guy, it’s just that the possibilities here are pretty scary when you think about it. Imagine the scenario: a president doesn’t like somebody. His cohorts in the Justice Dept. gin up an excuse to detain him. Because of the Patriot Act, access to counsel is limited and government is free to tap into defense-defendant conversations. The guy sits in jail for the rest of his life without ever getting a fair hearing in front of a judge. On the outside, all people ever hear is the hype produced by the government, though some doubt the truth of what they hear. Does that possibility worry anyone?
John Cole
Yes- the deep thinking exhibited in this thread has made me see the light, Bernard.
Jesus. It was a flame thread. I say something inflammatory, you guys explode. And I really don’t care what someone said to the VP. I really don’t. I actually laughed at Cheney’s response when I heard it yesterday.
DougJ
Concerned? Try horrified. These are tough times for civil libertarians, my friend.
jobiuspublius
I’ll never understand why all the dicks get elected.
demimondian
Have you thought of adding a disclaimer to your flame threads pointing out that people usually behave badly in those threads, and that one should not take them–or you–too seriously?
jobiuspublius
I wonder what Judge Cutie has to say about Padilla.
John Cole
You mean something like, say:
(Consider this an open flame war thread)
;)
ppGaz
As opposed to the expected outcome, where you say “something inflammatory”, and we all go into deep meditation and then write Shakespearian sonnets?
You’ve made it clear that you like to “play” the audience.
tBone
Short version – he’s a prick, yeah? (Also, there’s a joke there in your last sentence somewhere – maybe DougJ could work his magic on it.)
Er, the phrase “open flame thread” isn’t enough of a disclaimer?
tBone
Whoops, John beat me to it.
ppGaz
Well, color me unerwhelmed. Sometimes, it’s “inflammatory” material, and no flame thread. Sometimes, not-so-inflammatory material, flame thread. Sometimes, no material, flame thread.
Are there just “open threads?” Or are all “open” threads, by definition, “flame threads?”
Sometimes people talk around here as if there are patterns and rules, but I don’t see the patterns, and I haven’t found the cache of rules. Which creates the impression of a sort of free-for-all “Let’s have fun at your expense” tone to everything. Which, you know, is fine, but I tend to be in favor of directness. For example, one could have an FAQ to explain all this. And then, of course, once the “rules” are out there, one sticks to them, until they are revised.
tBone
You don’t?
John posts something that either deliberately or unintentionally pisses a bunch of people off. They bitch in the comments about how they’re pissed. John bitches back at them about how he’s pissed that they’re pissed. They bitch back at him about how they’re pissed that he’s pissed that they’re pissed.
… and round and round we go.
ppGaz
Exactly.
Again (for the umpteenth time) fine with me, but don’t yell at me for not “understanding” what the expectations and boundaries are at any given time, because there is no way to know that most of the time.
The phrase “don’t yell at me” is aimed at To Whom It May Concern. Shoe, fits, etc.
DougJ
Al Gore, has he no shame?
chadwig
I’m pissed at John, but it’s another John.
Mac Buckets
Dude gets no slack from me — there are plenty of victims of the storm who have lost more than property who haven’t felt the need to grandstand for cash. Disaster-pimps get no props. Well, I hope he gets his spot on The Daily Show out of it.
Translation: We whine when Bush and Cheney don’t show up, and when they do show up, we whine that they showed up. We are the Daschle/Dean Democrats. Hear us moan! And didja hear me say (giggle) “Dubya Gump?” I’m hilarious!
Translation: Even though I don’t know that “thousands” have died in this storm/flood TOTAL, and I can’t prove that FEMA actions killed anyone, I’m going to assume that Bush/Cheney killed lots and lots of people somehow (Hey, I heard a Lancet survey estimates 100,000 excess deaths from Katrina…probably). Since I’m an uninformed, fingerpointing Deaniac, I feel like I have to take out my hatred of Bush (and my frustration over those deaths that haven’t happened) out on someone, you know, to speak “Wild, Baseless Rumours to Power.”
Also, by filming myself screaming profanities at the VP, the highest form of Gallowean leftist expression, I’ll be able to sell the tape to some fellow traveler (maybe even a Hollywood celebrity! Or someone at Pandagon!) on E-bay.
Cha-Ching!
Mac Buckets
He waited until last Saturday and Sunday to airlift people out? But the flood was on Tuesday! How many tens of thousands of millions of Louisianiananaanianians are dead because of Al Gore’s delay? Form a Commission!
ppGaz
Best line of the day.
linda
ya know, you bushies can make your little jokes and enjoy that the spin appears to be settling in, but this is deadly serious. at some point, you will understand that george bush is an utter and absolute failure, who has severely compromised this nation’s security. consider the following:
“FARS News Agency reported on September 6 that the Islamic Republic Guards
Corps [IRGC] spokesman said: “When the White House is [too] miserable to
deal with a natural disaster, how can it enter into military confrontation
with a [powerful] country like the Islamic Republic of Iran that has the
valuable experience of an eight-year sacred defence [Iran-Iraq war]?”
Mas’ud Jazayeri said: “Unlike the impression it gives, America’s management
and leadership power is like a balloon that can be deflated very easily.” He
said what happened during America’s military actions against Afghanistan and
Iraq confirmed his statement. He added: “The incompetence of America’s
self-made giant in Iraq shows the inefficiency of the US Defence and State
Departments and security apparatus more than the strength of the opposite
side.”
Asked whether America would take military action against Iran, the IRGC
spokesman said: “A small mistake by America will turn each of its states
into a crisis zone. Mismanagement and severe psychological problems that
occurred during Hurricane Katrina openly explain that other countries have
the power to turn different parts of America into war-hit zones at any point
of time. …
“Insider information reveals a lack of coordination among military, security
and political bodies of America. This information can help others deliver a
blow against the US and cause many damages. Therefore, predictions of the
collapse of America and its turning into a number of smaller states is
completely realistic and possible from practical and logical points of view.
… Never forget one thing about that incident [September 11, 2001], and
that is the fact that the US president and other official fleds and took a
shelter.””
– FARS News Agency, Iran
Mac Buckets
Linda…babe…darling…thanks for the chuckle, but…
Seriously, you’re quoting state-run Iranian news agencies to “prove” that America is weak.
I have some very shattering news for you. Perhaps you’d best sit down.
Sometimes, they lie. There was a guy named Baghdad Bob once…
Steve S
He may be a Dick, but at least he’s not a Cheney.
Brandon
Gee, I wonder why. I’m sure it has nothing to do with the asshattery oozing from the lefty commenters here.
ppGaz
No, I think she’s posting the material to show that they think we are weak.
What that means, down the road, remains to be seen, but (a) it’s very different from what you are asserting, and (b) what they think is probably pretty significant.
It’s also what a lot of Americans are thinking. We’ve spent all this money and listened to all this bullshit from all these blowhard politicians … and THIS is what we get?
This isn’t about Baghdad Bob. It’s about the fact that we appear to be fucked.
linda
ppGaz — thank you for clarifying for numbnuts. i really try to stay away from engaging in this crap, but it is incomprehensible that bushies don’t grasp that simple fact — george bush has demonstrated in vivid, real-time that the united states is incapable of dropping a bottle of water from a helicopter to a desperate woman holding a dying baby on its own soil. this is who you have chosen to revere.
Mac Buckets
But Iran doesn’t think we’re weak. Iran knows full-well that the US could thoroughly and easily wipe them off the face of the map with the touch of a few switches. That’s the lie — just like Baghdad Bob saying that American GIs had surrendered in Baghdad. He knew it wasn’t true, but propaganda doesn’t spread itself!
Only those who confuse weakness with delicacy of purpose are thinking this (and I’ll admit, a lot of people are either willingly or unwillingly confusing the two). Does anyone in the world have any doubt that if we wanted to thoroughly and utterly destroy all warriors of Islamic fundamentalism, that we could do so quickly… if we didn’t care about the rest of the people in the world? We’d make parts of the Middle East, Africa, and Asia into smoking holes, we’d kill millions and millions of innocents, but it would be quick and decisive. Sound “weak” to you?
DougJ
There we have it. You can be for small government, but you’re still a lefty if you don’t support George Bush.
Why don’t you ask me why I hate America?
DougJ
That’s right, Mac. If they think we’re weak, we should just nuke them. Only a lefty would disagree with that.
scs
Well keep up fair, even-tempered assessments like this, and you’ll be sure to win over more moderates and hence more elections in the future.
Mac Buckets
Then just say that, and hold off on the Iranian State press quotes — they do you no service. The US is not “incapable” of dropping a bottle of water, and anyone who interprets Katrina this way is just being intentionally obtuse. The US saved thousands of people with helicopters during Katrina. The US evacuated 80% of a major city before Katrina hit. The US has relocated thousands more victims. The US had one of the worst natural disasters in recorded history hit a major city, and the casualty rate will turn out to be remarkably low. But focus on that bottle of water!
Weakness and strength are relative, right? If you are going to say that we look weak to Iran because people suffered after the flood, you must look at Iran with the same oddly-positioned eye toward determining their relative strength.
Oh, the sole purpose of this post was to hang this disaster on Bush. I see. Good luck with all that.
Mac Buckets
Take a rest, FakeDoug. You’re losing the ability to read.
DougJ
Scs, I’m going to level with you about the 2008 election. This “everyone who disagrees with Bush hates America, freedom, Jesus, the troops, America, God, freedom, the troops” trope can only last for so long. It’s just going to make it that much harder for you to attack Hillary in 2008. Who is going to listen to you call her a lesbian communist after you’ve spent eight years calling Gold Star moms lesbian communists?
If you knock it off now, you still have a chance to keep Hillary out of the White House. It’s probably too late already, but you might as well give it a shot.
DougJ
I’d have an easier time if you wrote in comlete sentences.
ppGaz
Sounds … sociopathic, actually.
Look, the USA is not an advocate of world democracy, despite what you read in the talking points.
We’ve supported many despotic and oppressive regimes for various political and economic purposes, many of these in the Arab region itself. The Saudi oligarchy. The Kuwaiti oligarchy. The Shah of Iran’s oligarchy. Saddam Hussein himself was an “ally” when it was convenient for us to treat him as one.
Don’t preach to me that we are a wonderful country somehow because we don’t kill a lot of people. Actually, we’ve set it up so that friends of ours could kill a lot of people when it was convenient for them to do so. Just ask people who escaped from Iran during the reign of the Shah .. the same Shah who used to dine regularly in the East Room of the White House.
But you missed my point. It’s not that Iran thinks we are too “weak” to nuke them. They think we are to weak to get our act together and govern effectively. Iraq is evidence. New Orleans is evidence. That was the point.
Mac Buckets
FakeDoug, those are “comlete” sentences. You can only see parts of them, on account of the grain alcohol, I’m guessing. Put the bottle down and go to sleep. I’m just finishing this last nightcap myself.
DougJ
It’s rum, actually, Mac.
Remember, when you brag about how we could kill millions of people, you’re effectively helping Hillary get in in 2008. I don’t want her in there, either, so stop it.
DougJ
Mac, ppgaz is wiping the floor with you anyway.
I mean that as a friend.
anon
DougJ,
Who’s been calling Gold Star moms lesbian communists for eight (8!) years? When and where do you think Casey Sheehan died?
The Tet Offensive?
linda
“The US is not “incapable” of dropping a bottle of water,”
then let me correct my statement to your apparent satisfaction: ‘the united states chose not to drop a bottle of water’
Mac Buckets
Finishing this drink and going to bed, so forgive the rushed replies.
Yes, but not “weak.” That’s where delicacy of purpose (and human decency) comes in.
Never said they were. Never seen a talking point in my life. Next.
Never said we were. I just said it didn’t suit our purpose. Next.
You think Iran’s state news agency put out that “US is weak” story, leading this:
and WASN’T talking about military conflict, but just our ability to govern ourselves effectively? That is an odd, odd reading. I’d read again, if I were you. No, what this propaganda piece is clearly saying is that Katrina proves that the US could never beat “a [powerful] country like the Islamic Republic of Iran that has the valuable experience of an eight-year sacred defence” in a shooting war. That’s the Baghdad Bob lie.
DougJ
Mac, that’s pretty thoughtful stuff (no snark intended). Why did you go off and start talking about all the people we could kill earlier?
scs
DougJ, I have no idea what you are talking about. I might vote for Hilary. I consider myself a law-and-order centrist and that is the way she has been presenting herself lately. I used to be a democrat until the left went loony. It’s because of extreme statements such as Bush is an “absolute failure” (way to be balanced) that moderate people like me are being driven right. Unless the dems present a balanced, non-loony, non-whiny candidate for 2008, they will lose again.
Mac Buckets
LOL! You are both free to be wrong, although I wasn’t aware this was being scored… and by you, of all people! How’d I do in the swimsuit competition?
Perhaps you and ppg could “wipe the floor” with me by explaining how noting simple, unavoidable fact is “bragging.”
Mac Buckets
Just stressing the difference between “weakness” and “not wanting to kill millions and millions of people who don’t deserve to die, even though we could, if we were that psychotic.”
chadwig
This illustrates wonderfully our ability to break shit and kill people. It begs the (rhetorical) question: How good have we proven recently at putting things back together?
scs
I don’t consider the US weak. I consider the Iraqi’s weaker. We invaded and did a regime change. Not hard for us. But getting the Iraqi’s to get along and get a government together, a little harder. Does that show our weakness, or their weakness, so far?
tBone
And I used to be a Republican until the right went loony. It’s because of extreme statements such as Bush is an “absolute success” (way to be balanced) that moderate people like me are being driven left.
(Actually, I think moderates are being driven over a cliff. See you at the bottom.)
jg
Ours. Its been well known for many years that Saddam was the only thing holding that country together. ‘You break you own it’ is why we didn’t go into Baghdad in ’91. We showed we are complete fuckups by going in and knocking over Saddam with absolutely no plan for dealing with the post-war situation. Hope and a prayer. We showed an easily exploitable weakness. No reason to stand an engage our vastly superior weaponry. Fall back to the hills then disrupt our incompetent rebuilding efforts.
Are you asking if anyone thinks we have enough nukes to do the job? I can’t see how we would otherwise kill every muslim on the planet. I think we have enough to kill everyone on the planet so I guess we have enough to get the muslims but could we kill muslims without killing everyone else?
scs
Dude, I have never said Bush is an absolute success, and not too many people on the right do. But almost everyoone of the left says Bush is an absolute failure. Nothing is absolute in life, my friend.
scs
Hey, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. It’s up to the Iraqi’s to put a government together, not us. THEY need the plan. Our plan is to get them to plan. I wish them luck. If they succeed, great. If they don’t, still can’t be worse than Saddam.
tBone
Exactly my point.
Anyway, not trying to start an argument with you, just pointing out that the road goes both ways. (Substitute “Clinton” for “Bush” in your original post and you pretty much summed up how I felt in the late 90s.)
scs
I think if we did a neutral scientific analysis, we would see more extreme, whiny, petulant, insulting comments from the left, Ann Coulter notwithstanding. Perhaps that is a function of the right being in power now, I don’t know.
All I remember is, the Dem candidates constantly fixated, sliming Bush with every word they uttered at the debates. Remember Gephard with his WEBSITE? MiserableFailure.com? Come on. Did Bush every slime Kerry? I don’t remember one time. (Now maybe Rove did behind the scenes or something, but at least Bush was smart enough to let others do it.) Anyway, Bush is never negative in his language about the people around him, no matter how much he is slimed. Too me, that’s one thing that shows class. That is one thing many Dems don’t have going for them today.
anon
scs,
Good solid post. You’re making too much sense.
Just wait till the the moonbats get up later. You’ll probably have about 500 VERY ANGRY responses to your piece.
:)
Ancient Purple
I find it hard to believe that someone is classy because they get someone else to do their dirty work. Seems to me that is more along the lines of cowardice. It may be a great PR move, but it still is cowardly.
anon
Ancient Purple,
Presidents ALWAYS get someone to do their political dirty work for them. Always have, always will.
As much as you may like to deny it, this phenomenon didn’t start with W.
John S.
A dashing piece of fallacious argument known as Tu Quoque…more commonly known as Two Wrongs Make a Right.
Everyone else is doing it, so why can’t Bush? Bravo.
Ancient Purple
Oddly enough, the discussion was about George W. Bush, not Zachary Taylor or Grover Cleveland.
Narvy
Right! A link between Bush and the Swift Boat Veterans for
SlimeTruth as never been proven. And anyway, Bush was far too busy being a uniter instead of a divider during that campaign to criticize Kerry.Right! He never criticizes anyone around him. Even when, like Brownie who did a heckuva job, they might deserve a mild rebuke.
Another thing that shows class is not giving up a vacation to put on a show of concern during a catastrophe like a mere ordinary politician.
Another thing that shows class is merely moving Brownie who did a heck of a job to a position where he can’t do any more harm to the people of NO instead of canning the guy’s ass for compounding a disaster by his incompetence.
Another thing that shows class is his repeating the mantra “hard work” over and over again to make sure we know how hard he works. Between vacations, that is.
And he doesn’t even have to show his own class — he has Scott McClellan to do that for him in cleverly parrying nosy reporters’ trick questions.
(I’d like to work in a comment about his Mom’s showing class in pointing out how much better off the penniless evacuees had it in the Astrodome than they did at home, but she’s not the target of this particular diatribe.)
I have to go refuel my flamethrower now, but I’ll be back. I’m unable to resist the siren call of blind stupidity.
Narvy
That should have been “has never been proven”. It’s necessary to point that out explicitly because some of the people
making a lot of noisecontributing here won’t be able to figure that out, judging from the intellectual quality of their posts.Jim Caputo
Now that’s just jackass interpretation. They showed up TOO LATE. But you knew that already.
slide
REPUBLICANS SAY THE DARNDESTS THING:
Rep. Richard H. Baker:
House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.):
Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.):
House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (Tex.):
Barbara Bush:
President George W. Bush:
.
jobiuspublius
DOESN’T ANYBODY WATCH TELEVISION FOR CHRIST’S SAKE!!!!!!
There’s no loser like a classy loser.
Mac Buckets
Juvenile name-calling aside…Too late? Too late for what? Any visit by any President or VP to any disaster site is always simply “I Feel Your Pain” symbolic. Don’t pretend that the President ever shows up with water and a shovel. The left whined that the “I Feel your Pain” visit didn’t happen soon enough, true (gotta whine about everything, after all!), but when it did, they whined that it disrupted relief efforts and their daily lives (gotta whine about everything, after all!), like the heckler in this article. Wouldn’t it have disrupted things EVEN WORSE if it had happened the day after the flood?
If you are blind to the Daschle/Dean Dem’s “whine-because-we-have-no-new-ideas” offensive, good for you — because for those of us with clear sight, it’s a painfully pathetic thing to watch.
Krista
Just for shits and giggles, I actually want to comment on John’s original comment. Nothing to do with the people of N.O. who were too destitute to leave or prepare for this, but from having lived in a large city and having lived in the country, I have to say that most people who live in a large city have absolutely no friggin’ clue when it comes to any kind of preparedness for any kind of situation. When we had that hurricane in Halifax, everybody was pissing and moaning, and very few people had any kind of basic emergency supplies (fresh batteries, drinking water, a first aid kit, a camping stove). Then, 4 months later, we were hit with a ridiculously huge blizzard, and everybody was snowed in for a few days, and once again, everybody was caught with their proverbial pants down. If nothing else, I hope that everybody posting here, and everybody who’s watched the coverage of Katrina will go out and get those basic supplies.
Just a public service announcement from your friendly neighbourhood Canuck. :)
rkrider
Do you get it now?
– Aug. 6th PDB entitled “Bin Laden determined to strike US”, Bush does nothing.
– US lied into war
– Serious lack of armor for troops, “As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They’re not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time.” Rummy.
– US soldiers abandoned and convicted for following the administration’s torture policys.
– President eats cake while New Orleans drowns
– FEMA not only does not provide relief to thousands, but hampers efforts by others to provide help
– Top three officials, appointed by Bush, have no emergency services experience.
– Bush claims, “I don’t think anyone could have anticipated the breach of the levees.”
– “Brownie, your doing a heck of a job”
And now, Blackwater contractors (mercs.) (the same ones spotted at ABU GARIB) are allowed to carry firearms in New Orleans, while American citizens are being DISARMED and forced to leave their homes, in America?
Where’s the NRA, where’s the NUGE? Is it always party above country, for the right? And please don’t use that tired spin that it’s the state and locaL officials, FEMA’s clearly in charge now.
And at the same time just to rub it in our faces. A federal court (of which one of the judges may be nominated for the SCOTUS) rules that this president can detain an AMERICAN CITIZEN indefinately with no due process. THAT NEEDS REPEATED, this president can detain an AMERICAN CITIZEN indefinately with no due process.
What is happening people? This is no longer left against right, this is Americans and the Constitution, against what is happening to our country, right there in your living room on CNN, don’t believe me, believe your lying eyes folks.
Narvy
I really hate to have to say this to anyone who takes the positions that Mac Buckets does, but you’re right about that. Maybe not the “simply” part, but certainly about the symbolism. [End of not-whining portion]
One of the jobs of the President is to be a symbol, of strength, of calm fortitude, of determination not to be defeated by whoever/whatever threatens our security. To do this, the President’s symbolic showing has to be immediate, otherwise, the symbolism turns inside out and the President fails to be the beacon of inspiration that people want (whether we actually need it or not, it’s an aspect of LEADERSHIP, and we want it). To say it doesn’t matter when or whether he shows up, be it in the Oval Office or at the site of a disaster, is to miss part of what is required to be Presidential.
The much-reviled Clinton was a master of this; Bush doesn’t seem to get it. He exhibits indifference, lack of empathy, and self-absorption.
What about 9/11 you ask. Well, you didn’t, so I’ll ask for you. I believe that Bush’s handlers had him go bullhorn in hand to the WTC site because they recognized that the leadership symbolism had a political benefit. (And just incidentally might wipe that awful classroom pause followed by disappearance from public view thing from public memory.) I have no way of knowing, but it looks like they didn’t see the same benefit in a natural disaster; maybe they adopted Brownie-who-did-a-heckuva-job as a role model.
Oh, about the disruption thing: Putting rescue activities on hold because they have to pass through the President’s security perimeter… Looks like a form of disruption to me. I think the the symbolism requirement would have been met if Bush had immediately flown back to Washington and addressed the nation from the Oval Office (with something that didn’t end with “heh, heh”). But I’m whining; please excuse me.
DougJ
Look, you simply can’t blame Bush for what the Swift Boats did, or what Karl Rove did, or even what Bush said in his own speeches. He doesn’t write those speeches, he doesn’t control Karl Rove.
What Kerry did during his campagin was simply unconscionable. To speak about one’s war record as if they were somehow “patriotic” is so wrong-headed it defies description. Kerry was no hero in the war. And even if he was, he’s a flip flopper now so who cares. He should have spent less time talking about himself and more time talking about the things that matter to Americans: the sanctity of marriage, protecting the flag, and the Runaway Bride bill now before congress.
Can you imagine what might have happened in New Orleans if Kerry had been president? Osama Bin Laden might have been right there in New Orleans releasing toxins into the water, letting water moccassins loose, starting fires, and encouraging looting. Just think about that for a minute.
scs
Okay, what is this about the vacation thing. Bush announced he would cut short his vacation on Tuesday, the day the levees broke, and flew back the next morning. You act like he went after Christmas. What’s the big deal about that? Bush is not by nature a show-boater, so he doens’t jump into the feel-your-pain moments, although he can do it okay too once he does it.
scs
Dougj, Kerry was whining about Bush the whole time. I never heard Bush say much about Kerry at all. Maybe once in a debate, I heard him say he thought Kerry didn’t have a good record of leadership in the senate, but that’s it. As to the SwiftBoats, I have no doubt they did it on their own. After all, they have been against John Kerry since Nam, they didn’t need Bush to tell them what to do. By the way, you think Kerry lost just because of the Swiftboats? Pleeease. That was just one factor of many. He lost because he was just a general weenie. (I’m not as nice as Bush)
DougJ
Scs, if Bush cut his vacation short every time a huge flood destroyed a major American city, he’d never get any vacation time. And then where would we be? Don’t you want a president who leads a balance life?
And you’re right he’s not a showboat. That whole Mission Accomplished stunt where he landed on the aircraft carrier — it wasn’t supposed to be televised. It was just part of a USO fuction. The goddamned librul MSM snuck in and televised the whole thing without his permission. All 3 major networks plus CNN and Fox. I’ll never know how they did it. But I know why the did it: they wanted to embarrass the president because they hate America.
DougJ
Do you still believe in the tooth fairy?
scs
He went the next day for gosh sakes. Not all THAT bad. Not that bad to make a big deal about it. Okay good point on the Mission Accomplished thing. Still, that is a little different to me. He likes ceremony showboating, awards and praise and such, he doesn’t like emotional touchy feeling showboating.
scs
Please, John O’Neill has been pursuing Kerry for the last 30 years.
DougJ
Scs, I think the tooth fairy has been leaving money under your pillow for 30 years.
scs
Okay, remember Kerry at the hearings after Nam? Do you THINK some of the Vets were a just little pissed off back then? Or do you think they only got pissed 30 years later after Bush came along and told them to be. You must have lots of dimes and nickels under your pillow over there.
Narvy
Bush was not personally responsible for the Swift Boat Vets thing. He was personally responsible for not denouncing it.
If I were the CEO of any enterprise and couldn’t control a major behind-the-scenes manager, I would fire him. Unless I didn’t realize he was out of my control, in which case I would be incompetent, or I deliberately chose not to control him, in which case I would be responsible. Counterarguments?
John Kerry was (still is) a real stiff who ran the worst campaign I can recall. (Ross Perot doesn’t count; his campaign wasn’t real.) The reality of the medal/war hero history will probably never be settled to anyone’s satisfaction; both sides have witnesses and commanding officers and for all I know mystical visions that support them. The flip-flopper meme was triggered by a truly hideous verbal gaffe (see “worst campaign” above) and rolls over the fact that any legislator can support part of a bill without supporting another (happens all the time in Congress) and decide to change his/her position based on changing circumstances, needs, understandings, perceptions, or other nuance-inducing plural nouns. And any person can change his/her mind about something without being a “flip-flopper”, which seems to mean one who executes a sudden reversal (as of direction or point of view) and must therefore be unworthy of being President. Even Bush has been known to change his mind.
Okay, I thought about it for a minute. I see two possibilities:
1. This is satire, but it’s hard to tell because of the context in which it’s embedded;
2. You are one of the evil DougJs and not the one I prefer to think of as the real one.
DougJ
Narvy, how could that not be satire? Everything I mentioned in that blocked quote actually happened without Osama Bin Laden there.
Narvy
DougJ –
After posting the diatribe above, I reread the post that triggered it and boy, do I feel stupid! The whole thing is satire, but it’s so good it sounds like the real thing
And I get snarky when people don’t get my sarcasm. Beat me, beat me, I am unwo-o-rthy!
Narvy
And without John Kerry. Oh, God, please make him stop before I have a laughter-induced aneurysm.
croatoan
One of the levees broke late Monday morning.
scs
I agree Narvy, no way to settle the Swiftboat thing for sure. Memories on both sides, fog of war, etc. No need to even try and debate it anymore. I must go now before I get inspired into any more posting on this.
Narvy
Dude, you’re gonna force me into retirement. I can’t match this.
Narvy
I’m not clear about what you mean. Really. Is it agreement with what I said or sarcastic riposte? I don’t want to argue about it, I just want to be sure I get your point.
Narvy
Right, right. But you have to admit that what I wrote seriously was pretty good. On the other hand, if you’re one of the evil DougJs, you don’t have to admit it.
DougJ
Yes, what you wrote seriously was good, Narvy.
Narvy
Thanks. I wasn’t really soliciting an endorsement, the comment was rhetorical. But my need for peer approval is insatiable, so thanks, again.
But I’m still not wo-o-orthy.
Here’s a thought:
Let’s form the Jonathan Swiftboats Veterans for Modest Proposals. What do you think? We could dedicate our writings to making those whose postings we disagree with look foolish and cause the other posters to drive them from the blogosphere.
croatoan
The Swift Boat people were working with the Bush-Cheney campaign (more links). The Navy’s records support Kerry’s accounts of coming under fire on March 13, 1969. Larry Thurlow claimed Kerry lied, but Thurlow’s own records support Kerry’s account, as does a guy from Thurlow’s boat. Supposed eyewitness Steve Gardner “was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals.” When Kerry finally released his records in June 2005, they included “numerous commendations from commanding officers who later criticized Kerry’s Vietnam service.”
I agree that Kerry ran a bad campaign. He should have released his records and smacked the Swift Boat liars down immediately (apparently he was too embarassed that his grades were lower than Bush’s). His “I voted for the war before I voted against it” gaffe was a huge blunder, but had a defensible point (he wanted Bush to pay for the war instead of going deeper into debt with more tax cuts). His failure to immediately clear that up was probably more damaging than the gaffe itself. He also should have had the stones to say, “I voted for the war because I trusted the president, and the guy fucking lied to me.”
Narvy
croatoan –
I read your post as essentially in agreement with what I wrote. As I said, both sides in the Swiftie brawl produce “evidence” to support their positions. My belief is that Kerry acquitted himself well during his time in Vietnam but probably puffed up his history during the campaign. Whatever the truth, the Swiftboat campaign against Kerry was unconscionable.
No argument here. A wise person wrote on September 10th, 2005 at 11:41 am “John Kerry was (still is) a real stiff who ran the worst campaign I can recall.” Had Kerry said what you said, his campaign might have made it to second-worst.
demimondian
Wasn’t that what we were doing when we had that long thread about the president eating babies? Wasn’t that what No Child Left was all about?
DougJ
I’m all for it. The amazing thing is how easy it is to (1) convince the lefties you’re serious and even more frightening (2) get the righties to agree with you. When I go back and look at all the insane idiocy I got Darrell and Tall Dave to agree with, it blows my mind.
John S.
When I think about how I got the trees to go along with breathing in the Carbon Dioxide that I exhale, it blows my mind, too.
=P
Narvy
Excellent catch! I wish I had thought of it.
The Presidential Baby Barbeque (Babyque?) should be considered an inspiration or precursor for the more formal organization, kind of like when the Colonists threw all that tea into Boston Harbor and subsequently formed a new country.
Bernard Yomtov
Doesn’t take a lot of deep thinking to figure out that your post was foolish.
Are you disavowing it or not? This “I was just being inflammatory” crap is a copout. It neither disavows the statement nor stands by it.
DougJ
The era of baby eating over.
Narvy
We’re really very good at this — my arm is sore from all the mutual backpatting — but we seem to have lost or scared off Mac Buckets and John appears (or rather disappears) to have gone on to better things. We’ve become an echo chamber. We need to find another thread to troll.
DougJ
Left out “is” there.
The era of baby eating is over.
Narvy
The long, dark night of the soulless is over.
Wait, that’s wrong. Bush and Cheney are still in office.
DougJ
Here’s another question: If the head of Health and Human Services ate a baby, would Bush fire him or simply relieve him of his duties involving child services?
Narvy
I think baby-eating is a Presidential Prerogative. He would be fired for an act of lèse-majesté.
Slide
scs said:
scs check out ALL the latest polls, the independents are much closer to the Democrats than the Republicans. They have been moving that way for a while now but its really accelerated the last month or so.
ppGaz
But, is it okay to eat a baby that, say, died of natural causes?
I’m just asking.
Narvy
Heard this morning on Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me:
[paraphrased]
We no longer call the displaced people of New Orleans “refugees” because this suggests they have a place of refuge.
Guys, we have competition. And they’re professionals.
DougJ
I like this guy more and more.
Mac Buckets
Or it’s Saturday during College Football season, and he has a life outside of the Juice. Oh, damn, I just disproved my own point. Back to football and the lawn.
Besides, I don’t see how any of this pertains to me. I agree that Bush could’ve been on TV the day before. Neither of us really thinks that this would’ve made any tangible difference to anyone, though. This is all political whine-and-grine, which I find tremendously distasteful in the middle (well, middle-to-end) of a historic natural disaster.
DougJ
You’re right, Mac. There will plenty of time to find out what went wrong (if indeed something did go wrong) when the Republican-led commission releases its findings in 2011. Until then, I say we all shut up, stop organizing plane lifts of people hospitals, stop going around in civilian boats and hyundais and rescuing people, and get behind the president.
CS
After seeing the “fuck you” incident, was anyone else reminded of that old Soviet joke, which if my memory is correct, Reagan used to tell as a bit of self-deprecating humor.
The joke (from faulty memory):
An American and Soviet are talking in a bar, comparing their different political systems.
The American says: “In our democracy, I can walk up to the White House anytime I want and yell “Go to hell, Ronald Reagan!” and nothing will happen to me. That proves our system is better.”
The Soviet responds: “Thats no big deal. I can walk up to the Kremlin anytime I want and yell “Go to hell, Ronald Reagan!” and nothing will happen to me either.”
scs
Narvy, no I agree, no sarcasm. Hard to know exactly what happened, I basically agree with your assessment of it. Although I do think its fair game to bring it up. Why not? I don’t buy those taboo, sacred cow issues that shouldn’t be talked about. Get it all out on the table, in as respectful, factual way as you can of course. If he’s got nothing to hide, he can defend himself. I just want to point out to Coatoan, although I hate to start up this debate again, that the official Navy record was based on John Kerry’s reports, written by himself. But that’s all I want to say about it.
DougJ
Scs — that’s right, John Kery was able to award all of those medals to himself. That’s the way the Navy works — you just write yourself up a report and presto, there’s you medal. Geroge Bush could have awarded himself three medals for his duty in the Texas Air National Guard if he’d wanted to — he was injured three times in drunk driving accidents going to and from the base — but he’s way too classy.
Furthermore, I don’t see what the big deal about honoring people’s war records is. Why shouldn’t people who had flat feet or pullsed strings to get out of the draft not be allowed to quesiton the war record of someone who spent a year getting shot at in the jungle? This country is based on dissent. But not dissent from this president — that’s treasonous.
DougJ
DougJ
I think that may have been the first comment ever written from within the confines of Dick Cheney’s ass.
scs
Okay DougJ, I wasn’t going to respond, but them’s fighting words. “That’s the way the Navy works—you just write yourself up a report and presto, there’s you medal.” you wrote. Well, in Kerry’s case, I think it did work that way. They were in the middle of a jungle for gosh sakes. Who else would check on it? He was the leader of the group, the highest ranking guy, and responsible to write the reports. And somehow, after he wrote the report on himself, he ended up with the most heroism. Gee, how did that happen?
Bush didn’t question the record. The Vets did. They questioned it for years. People like you maybe be too star-struck to question lots of people with medals, awards, people in power. But they should. Just because you get a medal doesn’t mean you not a regular human anymore and get a pass. I’m sorry to break it to you, but people with awards lie sometimes too. Ask anyone who heard all the top baseball players testify about steroids recently.
DougJ
So now winning three purple hearts is the moral equivalent of playing major league baseball.
You know what, scs, Max Cleland didn’t lose those limbs either. He just tucks his legs under his rear when he’s in that wheel chair.
scs
No one’s above the law, DougJ. Or above the truth. If Max Cleland up and went and cheated on his taxes, would you say, well, gosh, he’s a decorated vet, let’s just forget about it. I think you would.
DougJ
Scs, that’s stupid. The Rovebot for Filth didn’t say John Kerry cheated on his taxes, they told lies about his war record.
Okay, let me ask you a question: do you believe in evolution or do you think the jury is still out?
tBone
Cheney talks out of his ass all the time; why shouldn’t other people use it as a communication medium?
JoeTX
Narvy, how do you expect to win any arguments with a replublican with that long drawn out piece of diatribe. You gotta shorten it down man! Something that will fit on a bumper sticker, or a tee shirt. You know like “Up or Down vote”, “flip-flopper”, “Blame game”, etc. That was one of Kerry’s big weaknesses, he couldn’t connect with the average republican on the “bumper sticker” level!
DougJ
I’m sorry Scs, but I can’t argue with you anymore. If you really think that Kerry was able to award himself medals, you have little or no connection with reality. Why not go read a story on how he got the medals? Some place other tha Newsmax, please.
DougJ
JoeTX, do you think the “blame game” thing works? I think it sound stupid and too PRish. Flip-flopper was good, so is “up or down vote” but I’m not sold on blame game.
CaseyL
LOL! Not to take anything away from our other resident wits, but you are a masterful satirist. You were always consistently OTT, never broke character (until the last few days), and I was never really 100% sure if you were parodying Right Wing Wacko or meant every word.
*applause*
Ben Marble, M.D.
Dear Mr. Cole
Dick is a Dick since his name is Dick but you don’t know me and my name is not Dick so please explain your silly position?
Ben
ps GO FUCK YOURSELF!
Jim Caputo
When Kerry was in Vietnam, he was a person of no special interest and the medals weren’t questioned by anyone at that time. It was only AFTER he’d started speaking publically against the war that the medals began to be questioned.
Also, those who served side-by-side with him, those who stood on the podium with him in Boston in ’04, have all backed his version of events (with, I believe, one exception or abstention). The ones who are questioning the medals had the same job, but were not on his boat.
But I’m not going to get into a long thing with you about this. You believe the swift-boat-liars because their agenda matches your agenda. I don’t expect I can change that viewpoint. You’re firmly entrenched in the bottom 38%.
The Disenfranchised Voter
This guy is my hero, I even emailed him thanking him for what he did.
Dick Cheney can go fuck himself as far as I’m concerned.
Janus Daniels
“It was a flame thread. I say something inflammatory, you guys explode.” You mean, you got exactly what you asked for.
Enjoy!
scs
Okay DougJ, enlighted me, how did Kerry win his medals? Were they not based on an after-action report that Kerry wrote and submitted? These reports were then reviewed by his commanders later and then he was recommended for a medal. Or was CNN and MSNBC there, filming them in the jungle and the tape was submitted to his commanders, and THAT’s how he got his medals. If I am wrong, please correct me.
And yes I do believe in evolution. (and that has to do with what?) But, as I posted earlier, after reading an article in the NYT about ID, I think it’s an okay way, IF some schoool board insists on it, to make you think about evolution and good for a class discussion about the weaker spots of the evolution theory and then you could explain how evolution has answers to the ID questions. I mean the world would not fall apart if some students want to ask questions about ID.
And as for this “Scs, that’s stupid. The Rovebot for Filth didn’t say John Kerry cheated on his taxes, they told lies about his war record.” I have no idea if you are being flip or what. I am using a metaphor man. My point is, and I will say it again, is that even honoured people aren’t above the truth or law.