I really am tired of dealing with the Katrina ‘fall-out,’ but Ezra Klein has a post up criticizing efforts to ‘privatize’ FEMA, which I think would be a pretty bad idea right now. However, most of his post comes from the standpoint that what happened in the Gulf was a failure- a premise I do not agree with nor probably never will.
I see some inexcusable errors- the communication breakdown, the failure to evacuate people or place food and supplies in the shelters of last resort, a number of bureaucratic snafus, etc., but I hardly see the largest and fastest mobilization of this kind as a ‘failure.’
Now, granted, I spent a couple of years in the military and have been involved with a few mobilizations and a few relief efforts, so I may not have the credibility that a Paul Krugman or a Josh Marshall, with their extensive experiences, when it comes to condemning these efforts as a failure, but I do have my opinions. One of my opinions is that statements like this demonstrate the wide gulf between the plausible and the desired:
MR. RUSSERT: What’s the biggest mistake you made?
MAYOR NAGIN: My biggest mistake is having a fundamental assumption that in the state of Louisiana, with an $18 billion budget, in the country of the United States that can move whole fleets of aircraft carriers across the globe in 24 hours, that my fundamental assumption was get as many people to safety as possible, and that the cavalry would be coming within two to three days, and they didn’t come.
Now that is one fast aircraft carrier!
Davebo
” but I hardly see the largest and fastest mobilization of this kind as a ‘failure.’”
Well, I guess it helps to base your opinion on a totally false premise.
John Cole
And what is the false premise?
Mr Furious
You’re right, John. They did a fantastic job in Florida last year.
Trent
Well, since it’s the only mobilization of this kind, it’s obviously the fastest and bestest.
Seriously, John, are you getting paid to say this stuff?
Jim Allen
Re: “And what is the false premise?”
For starters, it’s a premise that ignores the fact that FEMA and DHS didn’t even know that there were 15,000 people at the convention center several days after the hurricane hit, even though the news media (print and electronic) seemed well aware of it.
Davebo
Gee John, I quoted it. What do I need to do, get out the crayons and draw you a picture?
OK.
As of noon Monday Frances made landfall] FEMA and other Federal response agencies have taken the following actions:
About one hundred trucks of water and 280 trucks of ice are present or will arrive in the Jacksonville staging area today.
900,000 Meals-Ready-to-Eat are on site in Jacksonville, ready to be distributed.
Over 7,000 cases of food (e.g., vegetables, fruits, cheese, ham, and turkey) are scheduled to arrive in Winter Haven today.
Disaster medical assistance teams (DMAT) are on the ground and setting up comfort stations. FEMA community relations personnel will coordinate with DMATs to assist victims.
Urban search and rescue teams are completing reconnaissance missions in coordination with state officials.
FEMA is coordinating with the Department of Energy and the state to ensure that necessary fuel supplies can be distributed throughout the state, with a special focus on hospitals and other emergency facilities that are running on generators.
The Army Corps of Engineers will soon begin its efforts to provide tarps to tens of thousands of owners of homes and buildings that have seen damage to their roofs . . .
The Departments of Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, and Defense together have organized 300 medical personnel to be on standby. Medical personnel will begin deployment to Florida tomorrow . . .
White House
Responding to Hurricanes Charley and Frances
September 6, 2004
The Department of Homeland Security’s Federal Emergency Management Agency . . . is preparing for Hurricane Ivan’s landfall, which could affect multiple states, including Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana and Mississippi.
Intense planning and immediate actions are underway today in anticipation of Hurricane Ivan, including:
FEMA personnel remain in Florida working with the victims of the two previous hurricanes. However, some staff has been repositioned to respond to state requests for assistance with Hurricane Ivan.
In addition to the supplies provided for the two earlier hurricanes, the Army Corps of Engineers is standing by with 100 refrigerator trucks of ice and 500 trucks of water to meet immediate needs as part of the Hurricane Ivan response.
FEMA is using every available means to move supplies to where they are most needed, including pre-positioning supplies and using alternative means of transportation such as ships, air transport, and railroad.
Now the question is, what on earth made you think that this response was the biggest and fastest of it’s kind?
Other than the obvious need you have for it to have been.
chadwig
Substitute “Aircraft Carrier” with “troops” and it’s a perfectly valid assertion. Here’s an example of picking out one statement that is erroneous to try and question the credibility of a local official. You keep claiming you’re not an apologist, but like the Bush administration you say one thing and do another.
Trent
I can’t help but feel that John is just saying shit to tweak people. He basically said so last week.
Sort of crap, if you ask me, but if that’s what turns him on.
slide
John Cole:
Facts be damned. So the guy that kept saying to “wait till all the facts are in” before making any judegments now says that no matter what, it is unlikely that he will ever consider that the response to Katrina was a failure. Faith based reality at its finest.
John Cole again:
As if the ONLY ones condemning the federal government’s failure here are political pundits. From what I read there seems to be widespread consensus that this was a massive failure at the Federal level (as well as at the local level). The ONLY one’s I see even postulating that this was done “as best as can be expected” or are denying that this was nothing but a huge failure, are the true Bush apologists that NEVER EVER admit mistakes or failures. John was never in that category of Bush apoligists, judging from his past record, so it baffles me why he seems to have joined the kool-aid crowd on this one.
Steve
Wow, way to debunk an obvious instance of hyperbole, John. Maybe next week, when someone says he expected the government to move mountains to evacuate New Orleans, you can point out that mountains are not actually movable.
Nikki
Lessee…
Hurricane reaches Cat 5 strength Sunday. Cat 4 hurricane hits Monday. No food or water at convention center and Superdome until Thursday, possibly Friday. Yeah. Fastest relief mobilization ever.
space
I see some inexcusable errors- the communication breakdown, the failure to evacuate people or place food and supplies in the shelters of last resort, a number of bureaucratic snafus, etc., but I hardly see the largest and fastest mobilization of this kind as a ‘failure.’
There are really two issues here. The first is the objective measure of the relief effort..
At the end of the day, this is really about a fundamental difference of opinion as to what government can accomplish. Conservatives, by their nature, are willing to settle for what they have and be thankful they have it. Progressives are naturally more optimistic and willing to challenge the status quo; we can and should do better.
Personally, I think the relief efforts were an epic failure, despite the recognition that there will always be significant problems bringing relief to a region devastated by a Cat 4 hurricane. But we will know more in the future as the facts come out as far as what FEMA promised and what it actually delivered.
The second issue is really about effort. Many Americans were most pissed off, not because the relief effort didn’t save everyone within 24 hours, but because there appeared to be a complete lack of intensity on the part of the administration to do everything they could.
The levees began to break early Monday morning. Bush didn’t officially end his vacation until Thursday. Whether or not Bush cutting short his vacation immediately would have saved a single life is irrelevant. It might have.
Similarly, Bush’s funding cuts of the levee reinforcents might not have made a bit of difference. But they might have.
Putting management heavyweights, like Wes Clark, Powell, Schwartzkopf, or Giuliani in charge of FEMA and DHS instead of Brown and Chertoff would, in all likelihood, have saved a number of lives. Yet Bush made the choices he did.
Nobody expects perfection. But we expect government should do the best it can, warts and all. And most of all, we expect leaders to make an effort.
I fear that the irrational belief of many Republicans that all criticism by Democrats is “partisan sniping” has blinded them to the genuine anger that people feel about the Katrina relief efforts. I would not want to run in 2006 on a platform of “expect less and be satisfied.”
Brad R.
No one is blameless here. Nagin came off looking like an idiot yesterday, and he shares much of the blame for not implementing plans before the hurricane. But at the same time, we simply cannot overlook the failure of the Federal government to respond quickly and decisively once it became clear that this was a massive, widespread disaster. Kevin Drum has a fantastic round-up of how FEMA effed up.
Brad R.
This one is particularly bad:
IS HE OUT OF HIS MIND??? He wanted emergency services people to a get permission slip before coming to the aid of people trapped in New Orleans.
And just to be clear, we’re not talking about foreign help here. We’re talking about people from the same goddamn area.
Profbacon
John, Do you regret your vote for Bush?
I will probably ask you this question every week for the next 3 and 1/2 years.
ppGaz
Thanks for posting that. Not only did it make me laugh out loud, and spray yet another dose of Coke Zero on my keyboard, but I think it highlights the level of kabuki theater this topic has reached here.
Did Bush actually eat a baby? No, but he didn’t help himself by appearing to be looking at the Nutrition Facts chart on the back of the baby, either.
John may be “tired of dealing” with this topic (discuss!), but the fact is, Mr. Bush could just about end the hit on his approval rating with a simple declaration:
“I misunderestimated the gap between the challenge of the Katrina aftermath, and the apparent readiness of FEMA. I spoke too soon when I said that Director Brown was doing a heck of a job. I’m going to make sure that FEMA’s readiness is at the highest level and ask for a review of that agency’s status from top to bottom.”
That’s it, problem solved. The man says something that sounds presidential, sounds like the man intends to lead the way to a solution to a real problem, and recognizes that he isn’t infallible. He doesn’t pretend, and surround himself with people who pretend, that he can’t make a mistake, or that he doesn’t have the answer to every problem, that his judgement might be subject to question.
Earth to John and all you Bush-huggers: The fact that the man can’t or won’t do those kinds of simple things is the reason why he attracts so much disdain. Not because he eats babies, or creates hurricanes to terrorize black people. It’s because he just doesn’t get it.
Brad R.
I will probably ask you this question every week for the next 3 and 1/2 years.
He’ll totally ban you if you do :-)
BTW, Profbacon, are you any relation to Sadly, No!’s singing troll, Dr. BLT?
Dave Ruddell
I’m wondering here if John is making a distinction between the effectiveness of the relief mobilization once it actually got going as opposed to any of the myraid screw-ups that we’ve seen since Katrina hit, such as not getting the mobilization started sooner. It’s posible to be complimentary to those executing the relief effort whilst still slamming their political masters.
Or maybe I’m just tryint to read way too much into this post.
BillS
Prof, Cole may not regret his vote but I bet that over 51% of the voters regret the results in a major way.
Jay
No food or water at convention center and Superdome until Thursday, possibly Friday. Yeah. Fastest relief mobilization ever.
Maybe if state authorities weren’t blocking the FEMA organized Red Cross relief that was trying to get there, it wouldn’t have been an issue.
Profbacon
Gosh no, just an alcholic insominac.
p.lukasiak
actually, John has always been an apologist for Bush himself — although he is perfectly willing to criticize the wacko wing of Bush supporters, he seldom makes the connection between Bush and his pandering to those supporters.
John is suffering from a very bad case of cognitive dissonance — “reality” isn’t the way he perceived it to be, and he can’t handle it. To some extent, we may be watching John act out the grieving process — his posts reflect the various stages of “denial, anger, and bargaining” characteristic of grief, with occasional glimmers of “acceptance/understanding” peeking through. John appears to be mourning the Bush Presidency which is proving to be a dismal, catastrophic failure.
Profbacon
Ok, how about this… if it all came down to YOUR vote, do you still feel warm and fuzzy about it? I’m pretty warm and fuzzy about everything right now. WHEEE Rum and Coke.
Brad R.
Ok, how about this… if it all came down to YOUR vote, do you still feel warm and fuzzy about it? I’m pretty warm and fuzzy about everything right now. WHEEE Rum and Coke.
I didn’t vote for Bush. I can’t stand him.
Profbacon
so are we disagreeing or am I drunK?
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Plausible vs Desireable
Cole seems to be of the opinion that our expectations are too heigh. That a better respnose was… well…just not plausible. There are a MILLION examples of how FEMA actually impeded the response but lets put those aside for a moment and look at one example:
Is it IMPLAUSIBE to expect food and water could be dropped off to the tens of thousands of US Citizens waiting at the Convention Center (where they were TOLD to go) sooner than the 4 to 5 days it actually took? Especially in light of the fact that EVERYONE knew that the approaching storm was a huge and dangerous storm?. That New Orleans was highly vulnurable to just such a storm? That they had days and days of advance warning?
To suggest that it was implausibe to prevent US CITIZENS from dying of DEHYDRATION in the middle of a US CITY, on LIVE TV, a week after a KILLER STORM was predicted to hit that city is truly mind boggling. Implausible? A fucking highway to the Convention center was open and clear. News reporters drove there on a regular basis but John says it was not PlAUSIBLE to get water and food to the DYING people there? And we are supposed to belive him because he was in the service? That gives him the expertise to understand these very very complex things that the rest of us are just too ignorant to comprehend. What garbage John. What absolute garbage.
p.lukasiak
consider the possibility that both are true….:)
tBone
I have a feeling this thread is going to make me wish I was drunk.
Profbacon
I do know that the 82nd Airborne can deploy anywhere in the world in 48 hours. (Thank you Tom Clancy.)
Why couldn’t the 82 go to NO?
Trent
How about citing a credible source for this, Jay…
Trent
I think they were scared of the black people running around with guns…
TallDave
Just amazing. The man who failed to follow his own emergency plan accepts no responsbiility.
Incredible.
p.lukasiak
The role of Dr. Pangloss in today’s production of Candide will be played by John Cole.
Profbacon
Ixnay on the lackb eopleply on Ballon Juice Website. In this world, we are all equal in the eyes of Adam Smith.
TallDave
There are a MILLION examples of how FEMA actually impeded the response
No, there are a million Dem talking points and, afaict, zero facts behind them.
Is it IMPLAUSIBE to expect food and water could be dropped off to the tens of thousands of US Citizens waiting at the Convention Cente
The Red Cross has stated they were denied entry into the city by state officials.
Next talking point to be debunked, please.
pmm
I expect that there are legal issues regarding jurisdiction when you deploy Federal forces in the country itself. You might say that the law is an ass in a situation such as this, but I wouldn’t want authorities to just dismiss the rule of law due to an emergency.
Jay
As for the hurricanes in Florida, it went a lot smoother with FEMA because STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS DID THEIR FUCKING JOBS.
Alabama had the same success with FEMA when Hurricane Ivan struck them because their STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS DID THEIR FUCKING JOBS.
One statement made by Governor Blanco stands alone in showing how she has no business being the head of a state:
One would think that the duly elected Governor of a state would know and understand what her duties were and how she’s supposed to, under the constitution, deal with the federal government. Apparently, that’s not the case.
This without a doubt, stands as one of the dumbest things I have ever read. First, you put together two completey unrelated items together. As if there was some kind of link between Bush’s ranch in Crawford, Texas and a levee in New Orleans. Then somehow you reach the conclusion that by Bush leaving Crawford Texas, a life might have been miraculously saved. Please. Give us some insight on this observation. I’d like to know.
Davebo
I’m sorry but I’m not buying the cognitive dissonance theory.
This is all part of a well established trend by Cole.
For instance, Bush campaigns on a promise to allow the teaching of creationism in public schools.
After elected, he suggests teaching Intelligent Design (watered down creationism) in schools and Cole goes nuts!
Nah, he’s not suffering from cognitive dissonance. I can’t see that he had any factual foundation to begin with.
Krista
“Misunderestimated”…very nice.
It would be nice if that was said, wouldn’t it? But a big feature of this administration (not just Bush, but all those surrounding him), is that they have a severe allergy to admitting a mistake, or an error. Pretending that you’re infallible doesn’t make you look like a great leader — it just makes you look like an arrogant ass.
slide
Thats it? Lol. That’s your response to what we all saw on our TV? Lol.. ok, drink up, the Kool-aid is particularly potent this morning.
Jimmy Jazz
Speculation: it would require him to admit the following:
1) The disastrous war of choice in Iraq has now started killing Americans at home by draining manpower and resources from civil defense, proving all the criticisms of those that argued exactly that as a reason not to invade.
2) The party that promised to “keep us safe” as a trump over their stunning incompetence and policies only a small number of Americans support has proven it not only cannot keep us safe but has actually degraded America’s ability to respond to a large scale disaster four years after 9/11.
TallDave
IS HE OUT OF HIS MIND??? He wanted emergency services people to a get permission slip before coming to the aid of people trapped in New Orleans.
So they should respond “unlawfully?’
Sheesh, you’re complaining that FEMA asked them to proceed “lawfully?”
So much for rule of law, I guess.
Trent
No less amazing than the leader of the free world accepting no responsibility.
For anything.
Ever.
Davebo
Jay,
Regarding Blanco’s statement. Ironically, she didn’t have to do that.
She didn’t have to do anything other than what she did two days prior to the storm arriving. Mainly formally requesting federal assistance and having Bush declare it a disaster area.
From that point on, FEMA could do anything it chose as could the military and the rest of the federal government.
space
Why couldn’t the 82 go to NO?
The reason is (and I can hardly believe that this is the truth and not snark) that when the Governor of Louisiana called the President on Wednesday imploring him to “send everything you’ve got” she could not actually reach him and was forced to leave a voicemail for Bush. Because the message merely said “send us everything you’ve got” rather than “I authorize the deployment of the active duty military in my state” Bush was unwilling to authorize the deployment.
Anyway, I find the whole active duty bit to be a red herring. While they certainly could have been helpful, FEMA was busy bungling the job with the resources that it did have.
TallDave
Thats it? Lol. That’s your response to what we all saw on our TV? Lol.. ok, drink up, the Kool-aid is particularly potent this morning.
Yes, my Kool-Aid is fact-flavored. Yours appears to 100% BS.
So you saw people wthout food and water on TV, and from this you deduce “the federal gov’t must be at fault!” Your logic is irrefutable.
Trent
Needing to bend the rule of law never stopped Bush before.
TallDave
Trent,
Yeah, Bush is going to ban the Democratic party any day now.
Trent
No, we saw a city and state that was decimated by a natural disaster that needed help from the federal government. And that help took it sweet ol’ time.
I could have driven from Alaska to New Orleans faster than it arrived.
TallDave
Oh well, it’s clear the lefties have no facts on their side, and no interest what the facts actually are.
I’ll leave this thread to the fantasists.
ppGaz
‘Kew. I wanted to make the blurb realistic ;-)
Seriously though, I think that Bush goes way out of his way to provoke and to divide. To soothe and unite, in this situation, would be so simple and easy. Just say what a leader would say, and take some responsibility, and declare that he’s going to get some necessary things done.
Bush can’t do that either because he doesn’t have the imagination, or is badly advised, or both.
That’s why he’s a crummy president, not because he goes to Crawford and orders up hurricanes.
Trent
Actually, i’m happy for the apologists. Because the more they defend the indefensible, the more credibility they lose. And the harder the Republican Party is going to fall.
Keep reminding America exactly how corrupt, out of touch and self-serving the Republican Party is.
We love it!
Slartibartfast
Really? Cite, please.
p.lukasiak
actually, under the circumstances, Nagin did follow his plan…. New Orleans did not have all the resources necessary to fully implement a mandatory evacuation (just where were over 100,000 people supposed to go on the eve of a hurricane remains an unanswered question….) and the city’s response was pretty much stretched to its limits before the hurricane hit. (Priority seems to have been given to those least capable of getting themselves to safety…people in hospitals and nursing homes, and even that effort was not 100% successful before the storm hit.)
Clearly, not everything that theoretically could have been done was done, but the less than 100 buses at Nagin’s disposal had the potential to evacuate less than 5% of those with no means to get out of the city….
In fact, the “plan” was to get people out of the city after a hurricane if disaster struck—and to rely on FEMA and the state to accomplish this. FEMA was in charge of co-ordinating all the efforts — determining priorities, and implementing plans. When it became obvious that, for whatever reason (i.e. lack of means to evacuate people), the “evacuation” was not going to take place immediately, it was up to FEMA to come up with a “Plan B” to ensure that those who needed to be evacuated were provided with at least minimal sustenance until they could be evacuated.
Trent
Dude, we can only wiretap without a warrant and hold prisoners indefinitely without charge. We can’t drive a truck of supplies into a city without a Consitution Amendment.
Don’t be thick…
Profbacon
I guess now we are all reacting to the Newsweek story?
Defense Guy
Trent
You are the one being thick, and your lack of knowledge on both the law and history is appalling. Keep spewing the talking points though, as I am sure the need to vent your ‘outrage’ is compelling.
More Dean scream please.
sean
from the White House. on 8/27:
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Trent said,
I agree with you Trent. The American people know what they saw on their TV sets and anyone that wants to make excuses for what OUR government did will lose all credibility with anyone other than the true kool-aid drinkers.
The apologists approach where white is black and up is down is not an isolated incident. Its falls on the heels of:
Keep the faith baby.
ppGaz
“I’m a uniter, not a divider.”
slide
Lemmings. Why does the visual of lemmings following each other over a cliff to their demise come to mind when I read the posts of TallDave?
Slartibartfast
a) this isn’t a cite, and b) FEMA isn’t given arbitrary powers. Do you really think (and do you really want) FEMA to be able to, for instance, command US armed forces?
Profbacon
Find one person who didn’t want Bin Laden brought to justice. I’m a minister and I wanted that cocksucker in court. We got Tojo and Hitler faster than Bin Laden. The problem now is ability. Bush is a good Christian…but there are members of my congrigation who I wouldn’t let watch my goldfish.
It’s not a question of faith, it’s a question of ability
sean
ok. here’s the whole thing:
and here’s the link:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html
space
Three additional points bear further emphasis.
1. The convention center was the low hanging fruit. It is hard to prove at this point how many people could have been saved from houses and small buildings had there been an adequate execution of relief efforts, but if FEMA and the national guard couldn’t manage to bring relief to thousands of people collected in a central location with direct access to the functioning highway, it appears fair to assume they were blowing it all over the place. Think of the convention center as the canary in the coal mine.
2. Assuming that the governor and mayor had authorized full federal power (I argue they did, but anyway), the ignorance of DHS and FEMA about basic facts (e.g. whether the levees had broken and the number and status of people at the convention center) undemines the argument that the barrier to relief was the local authorities. Even had the 82nd been sent in, they would not have been assisting with the levee repair on Monday evening because neither Brown nor Chertoff was aware of the breaches. On Tuesday and Wednesday Brown and Chertoff were not claiming that locals were holding up relief, they were claiming that the full force of the federal government was engaged in relief efforts. Morons.
3. The strategic importance of the N.O. port and the refineries is one reason why FEMA is put in charge of planning and relief efforts for huge disasters. Knowing what a catastrophic impact the flooding of N.O. would have on the entire region and the nation’s economy, it is of great national import to avoid floods or at least mitigate the damages.
As a resident of New York, I don’t vote for the mayor of N.O., but I do vote for President. You can rest assured that I will not vote for an imbecile who insists that the primary protectors of our national security are local authorities.
Krista
Profbacon – reading your post just made my day. First of all, seeing a minister say “cocksucker”, well…maybe it shouldn’t have, but it just delighted and tickled me.
But on a more serious note, you’re absolutely right. Somebody could be a good Christian, a wonderful person in every way, and still a complete incompetent at everything they try.
I have to ask, though. You say that Bush is a good Christian. Do you think he is really? I’m agnostic, but was brought up Christian, and it seems to be that a lot of his faith tends to show up solely in what he says, not necessarily in what he does. What specifically do you think makes him a good Christian? I’m very interested in hearing this from your viewpoint, as you’re probably much better-informed on this subject than I am.
Profbacon
I know this is late.
But the Kanye West thing is Hilarious. Please, someone post the old SNL video of Mike Myers trying to sell a “Super deluxe vegetable slicer” with Heather Locklear.
Locklear says things like. “This actually slices carrots. Unlike the Jewish lies of Concentration Camps in Poland. ‘Super deluxe slicer’ is no Zionist conspiracy!”
Mike in 1994 and Mike 2005 had EXACTLY the same expression.
Defense Guy
Source
Profbacon
Well I’m a minister in so far as I went to http://www.ulc.com
Univeral Life Church. Some crazy California Church where you can become a minister online. I did it pretty much to make some extra cash living abroad. (Over 300 weddings so far). And my congrigation is other alcoholics who I “baptize” at bars in Japan. (Booze+tears=Christ)
After a coming to God moment, you’re not supposed to rag on them any more. But as the bodies are stacked like cordwood, it’s pretty freaking hard.
Trent
Nah, just the ability to command a truck or two.
Whatcha think?
Slartibartfast
Who drives?
Back to reality, who gets command of the site? Is it FEMA, or is it the state DHS, or is it Governor Blanco? If supplies do show up, who decides whether the supplies get delivered?
Mike S
I’m curious John. What would you call it? If you had to give it a one to five word label, what would it be?
And please everyone else leave this question for John. Don’t put words in his mouth and don’t get all indignant. Anybody who has read him for a while knows he’s not an appoligist and can sometomes be as hard on the admin as I am.
I’m just curious. If you had to explain the fed response to someone who didn’t see anything in the news, what would it be? “The federal response to Katrina was xxxxx.”
Jimmy Jazz
This was truly Bush’s Wizard of Oz moment: he is clearly incapable of making decisions. He is clearly over his head. It is very telling that “Vice” President Cheney was also on vacation when this happened.
That was a really great idea, by the way, letting everyone in Washington go on vacation at the same time.
LEE
I love watching ray nagin speak. he does a disservice to black leaders (in the US). it’s almost as if he is saying he can’t put his underwear on without someone giving him instructions. it’s such a sad sight. it confirms my belief that gov’t handouts will never be the answer for anything.
Hey, how much money did moveon.org collect for their protests (uh, hurricane relief)?
Trent
So very French of them…
Mike S
Over 240,000 beds were pledged for victims. How has Grover Norquist responded to the hurricane?
Mike S
My mistake.
Trent
I love watching [Bush] speak. he does a disservice to [all] leaders (in the US). it’s almost as if he is saying he can’t put his underwear on without someone giving him instructions. it’s such a sad sight. it confirms my belief that [family] handouts will never be the answer for anything.
Hey, how much money did [Operation Blessing] collect for their [assassinations] (uh, hurricane relief)?
ImJohnGalt
By the way, can we finally get TallDave to stop claiming that Canadian is going to implement Sharia law? The government was considering granting the same license to Muslim arbitrators to decide family law issues that they had already extended to Jewish and Christian arbitrators. In fact, in an unusual display of common sense, they revoked the privilege for all of them.
Just sayin’.
ImJohnGalt
Preview is your friend. “Canada”, not “Canadian”. And in the interests of furthering my initial point, it was a provincial gov’t that was considering this (Ontario). It would be like pointing at Arizona, back when they didn’t want to recognize MLK Day, and saying “America rejects idea of honouring MLK with a holiday”.
Krista
That WAS sensible, wasn’t it? It’s almost as though we all have the same protection and responsibilities under the law. What will we wacky Canadians do next? :)
ImJohnGalt
Well… “Peace, Order and Good Government” vs. “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” can take two countries in very different directions.
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
Having said that, the Ontario Premier gave a speech on opening night at the currently running Toronto International Film Festival (I was there), and, even though he was brief, he gave a reasonably stirring endorsement of the importance of the arts in a well-functioning society that I, for one, was glad to hear.
Someday I would love to see an honest, transparent, altruistic government at work. I wonder what it would look like, and where it might take root?
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Krista said
You are easily delighted Krista. But I do agree with your central point which questions why Bush should be considered a “good” Christian? Do you think Jesus would have been the number one EXECUTER in the coutry as Bush was in Texas? Would Jesus have tried to use all his power in and influence to help the rich and powerful instead of the poor and weak? Would Jesus have invaded another country without any provacation whatsoever on a concept called “preemption”? Would Jesus have thought his following was the “have’s and have more’s“?
Quite frankly, I dont’ see anything about Bush that makes him particularly Christian, at least not how I interpet Jesus’s teachings.
jg
Never happened. The director drove them over the ledge. Snopes.com
FEMA in the 90’s was a poster child for the UN one world domination black helicopter crowd. Many conspiracy emails about teh astonishing powers of FEMA. The ability to take over any emergency event. I remember Rush taking about how FEMA can take overht ecountry in the event of an emergency. Now FEMA is a line item in DHS. No real power no need for compoetent appoiontees.
Bush took away their cabinet seat. Bush made them a part of DHS. Bush appointed cronies.
This is simply a case of corrupt state and local gov’ts.
From early monday it was clear this was way beyond the capabilities of the state and local gov’ts. The feds need to step in when the problem affects the whole union and is too big for a local and state response.
Krista
ImJohnGalt – hon, when you consider that a sizeable amount of people think that Toronto is our national capital, does it really surprise you that someone forgot to differentiate between a provincial issue and a federal one?
Krista
I have no idea, but it won’t happen with the current political process, that’s for sure. Right now, anybody who is honest, transparent and altruistic gets eaten alive long before the primaries/leadership conventions.
ImJohnGalt
Krista, I’ll cut some people (esp. in the US) slack on thinking Toronto is the capital city. I daresay that more than a few Canadians believe that, and that even more Western Canadians consider it the (goddamned) de facto capital, even though they know better.
Still, never hurts to make the paintbrush a slightly finer tipped-one, lest one colour outside the lines.
I draw the distinction between what plays in Kansas vs. America as a nation, and thought that this was a “teaching moment” for our friends to the south.
capelza
I sighned up through MoveOn.org’s site to offer my home to those displaced by this. They have not asked me for any money, nor have I given them any. I do get e-mails from them on a reuglar basis, however, regarding my status. I appreciate that.
jg
It is the hockey capital.
Since John is all ove the mayors ‘aircraft carrier’ statement he must love to catch politicians saying indefensible things. How about politicians repeatedly saying the the news media said NO ‘dodged a bullet’? Bush is still saying htis today. Tuesday morning newspaper headlines is how our leaders get their news. This would be sad if there actually was a newspaper headline anywhere that said that (worldnutdaily doesn’t count) but its downright scary that they are making this up and believing its a sound excuse. Sound enough to repeat no matter how many people point out the lie.
Trent
Someone made a good point on Bill Maher’s show this Friday. Basically, why are the bible thumpers never trying to post the teachings of Jesus in front of courthouses? It’s always the 10 Commandments, never, “The meek shall inherit the earth” or “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
capelza
I swear the Gospel of Matthew has been mysteriously edited out of the New Testament when I wasn’t looking…
Krista
Slide – vulgarity from unexpected sources always delights me.
And I agree with you about Bush’s so-called Christianity. I have heard that some of these executed Texas prisoners had IQs that technically put them at the level of mental retardation. Not that I don’t think people should be held accountable for their actions, but to have that many people executed illustrates a pretty cavalier attitude, no?
ImJohn Galt —
That was very poetic. And I think it’s a lesson that is universal. We are ALL guilty of lumping each other into categories. Even within our own country, there are stereotypes about the various regions, aren’t there?
slide
Yes. Beatitude #5 :
.
Krista
By the way, I thought you guys might like this:
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm
slide
I see Howie Kurtz has addressed some of the points I made about the Washington Post article that quoted unamed adminstration officals as saying Governor Blanco had not declared a State of Emergency. Cole prominently excerpted that falsehood. But what really got me about the piece was when Kurtz quoted the Post reporter as saying this:
So they don’t reveal sources. PERIOD. Even if the source intentionally lies to them. Interesting isn’t it? What incentive is their for a source to tell the truth? But then the last line seems to indicate that the reporter doesn’t seem to believe that this high level adminstration source intentionally lied. Huh? So the guy that is putting forth the Adminstration spin didn’t even know she had declared a State of Emergency? Either the source is a complete lying sack of shit or a complete incompetent. I’ll let you all debate which.
Vladi G
Well, maybe Republican Jesus would.
Vladi G
This statement is clearly false, as many bullets fired after Hurricane Katrina made landfall clearly hit New Orleans. So yes, while the city may have dodge one bullet (for which evidence has yet to be presented), it failed to dodge hundreds if not thousands of others.
slide
Vladi, I needed a good laugh, thanks for the link.
Krista
Amazing how the Bible contains so much beauty, and yet so much ugliness has been done, with its contents as justification.
Bob Munck
So apparently one of the reasons that the Federal Government didn’t respond immediately is that the Blanco left her request for help as voice mail because she couldn’t get Bush on the phone. The Governor of a state in the middle of a disastrous emergency couldn’t get the President of the United States on the phone. Heck, he wasn’t even on vacation any more. Probably taking a nap.
Nikki
Since Hurricane Andrew hit in 1992 (Google is everyone’s friend!), I think I’ll take the rest of that article with a large grain of salt.
Trent
That was considered unacceptable then and President Bush lost his job over it.
In any case, it’s a post-9/11 world. Or at least I have been told over and over and over and over and over again.
Nikki
Oh yeah, about the state not letting the Red Cross in:
[snip]
[snip]
Defense Guy
Of course you will, it doesn’t serve your purpose to read the words of a man who has responded to disasters under different administrations and actually has positive things to say about this one. Keep speaking truth to power. Death to the neocon cabal and all that.
Jimmy Jazz
I love watching racist idiots make fools of themselves.
jobiuspublius
It’s official, John Cole is a Worst-POTUS-Ever appologist.
jobiuspublius
IIRC, people who have actually worked at FEMA have their opinions too, and it’s not as favorable to Worst-POTUS-Ever as yours.
Defense Guy
The only part that some can ever remember.
The parts you will never here these same folks quote, I wonder why that is?
Howie
See comment posted on Jawa today on this thread.
mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/116717.php
I believe what I saw WITH MY OWN EYES! My son, LA National Guard, called out the Saturday before the storm…..and SAT AT THE LAKE CHARLES ARMORY UNTIL THURSDAY!!!!!!!!!! Louisiana National Guardsmen idle at the armory until they got word Wednesday NIGHT that they would be allowed into New Orleans on Thursday! This is what our governor did, I know for a fact, that she waited until WEDNESDAY NIGHT to give permission for my son’s platoon to head for New Orleans.
And you can take that to the bank!
Stormy70
Our technology must be further than I thought. Where is my teleporter hyperdrive?! I’m tired of driving all over the place. LA politicians are just cracking me up at this point. Mary Landrieu took the cake this weekend, with her claim that the Mayor’s drivers don’t show up to work on a sunny day. Ha ha. Yet a 20 year old hero can drive a bus on his own initiative and save 70 people. Put him in charge!
jobiuspublius
How many LA National Guards does it take to do rescue operations after Katrina?
Trent
If that’s true, hang her high. I don’t care. I certainly won’t defend that. But i’d like to see something more than anectodal proof.
But AT THE SAME TIME, yes, two thoughts that occur simultaneously and can be equally true: The feds trump the states. She might have fucked up, and if she did, hang her high, but in the same breath, you cannot tell me that the feds couldn’t have sent supplies in earlier.
In order to claim that the feds were not able/allowed to send in supplies, you need to explain the event that occurred during those 5 days that changed the situation from “Cannot send in troops” to “Can send in troops” because troops and supplies did eventually arrive.
If this event/signed document/personal request did not happen, then the only explanation is foot dragging and incompetence on the part of FEMA and the Bush Administration.
If you CAN, i will eat my words.
jg
The event is Bush went back to work on wednesday. Once there he watched a dvd of all the news coverage from the previous few days and realized his old drinking spots are gone.
LEE
wait a minute…. are a bunch of DU secular leftist arguing Christianity? and attacking a bloated govt agency (fema)? and quoting bill maher for guidance (of any kind)? oh, i do love reading the fring opinions on this site…. are all you guys profs? artists? ‘intellectuals’ of some sort? please, take a trip, just a short one, to the real world. N.O. was a failed city b/c most were dependant on big govt. rebuilding on gold columns will only worsen the dependancy. oh yeah. moveon.org is NOT working for Americans best interest. i know, it hurts. and west viginia football sux. just the facts.
Krista
Why on earth not? Frankly, I think it’s a good thing whenever anybody asks questions and explores philosophies other than their own.
ImJohnGalt
Well argued and resourced, LEE. I’m convinced.
An appeal against intellectualism is always the best approach to take in defending your position. Which, as far as I can tell is that because there were poor people in New Orleans, rebuilding the city by paying inflated contracts to Halliburton and K&R will somehow disproportionately benefit these same poor. At the same time, because lobbying corporations continue to feed at the government trough, these displaced poor who lost what meagre belonging they did have will stop looking for work at below-minimum-wage jobs an wait idly by for their ever decreasing welfare checks.
I repeat. I’m convinced. Thanks for your erudite contribution to this blog.
DougJ
Oh, man, that was a great post Lee. I’ve always said “intellectual” is just a fancy word for “got your head up your ass.” If those people would spend a little less time gripin’ and a little more time workin’, this economy would be in a helluva lot better shape. Well, I guess they don’t have to, since they’re getting paid all that money to churn out “art works” like “Piss Christ” and to teach classes on Karl Marx of all people (would you believe they still read that guy at many universities).
I know the left loves to praise those poor people in New Orleans, but the reality is they’re lazy criminals, who probably stayed behind so they could loot. The truth is maybe this will break their bad habits and force them to get jobs instead of being paid to have babies by the government Welfare State.
In the end, the reconstruction will be good for the economy anyway. The same way that wars are.
Krista
DougJ –
You are a master of satire, my friend.
capelza
Lee,
Is there any more cliche crap you can toss out? Somebody told you that liberls are all like that, or you just pulled it out of the GOP playbook, or you just made it up out of something you pulled out of your butt.
#1) Only inhabit DU (I’ve been there, it’s the mirror of Free Republic and most people I know don’t go there either.
#2) I am not secular, I go to church and grew up on the bible…in fact, my “liberalism” comes from it. The weird thing is, you don’t hear about liberal Christians that much because we don’t feel the need to wear our “faith” on our Bush/Cheney buttons. Religion is a private thing, it has no place in the civic life of this country. Any “faith” that could possibly be injected into the public sphere is so watered down as to be meaningless pablum. Or incredibly bad “science” in the case of ID and Creationism.
Get a new slur…that one is sooooo yesterday.
Defense Guy..good point on Matthew 18, however, does that mena the rest of it should be ignored in favour of the Old Testament fire and brimstone?
John S.
Yes, Bush and his administration are secretly Jews (like myself). They don’t really pay much heed to the New Testament, since they prefer all that ‘eye for an eye’ business found in the Old Testament (unlike myself).
BadTux
I don’t get it. If someone is dying, I don’t need anybody’s permission to save that person’s life. If it’s in my power to save him, I save him. And I don’t ask whether it’s lawful for me to do that. I save him, then if I get arrested and put in jail afterwards, well, that’s just the price I pay for doing what’s right.
But then, that’s why I’m a penguin, rather than an official in the Bush administration…
For the record: It is clear that the Governor of Louisiana was out of her depth. You have to remember that the entire state of Louisiana has fewer people than New York City or the Los Angeles metro area, so she’s little more than an overglorified mayor, with a mayor’s mentality — i.e., that her job is getting potholes filled, keeping the state highway patrol on the road, making sure the schools have textbooks and the teachers get paid, and otherwise doing that kind of mundane but necessary stuff that doesn’t get the glory but that is the basis of civilization.
That said, the thought that the Feds couldn’t overrule Blanco when it was obvious that she was out of her depth was ludicrous. What was she going to do, order her Weapons of Mass Destruction to be deployed against the U.S. Navy if they landed supplies in New Orleans? You’re saying that some tinpot governor has more power than the President of the United States? To quote Mayor Nagin, that’s bull****. The President has the power, under the Constitution of the United States, to deploy the military anywhere that they’re needed in order to save American lives. All it takes is an order. The only reason this order didn’t happen is because the Bush administration and Blanco were too busy squabbling over bureaucratic a$$-covering bull**** to do what it took to save lives.
For the record: The military had troops and supplies that were located nearby and that could have been deployed in less than 48 hours if the order had happened. But it didn’t happen, and that is simply unacceptable. It is especially unacceptable when you consider the example of the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake, which destroyed a city of 300,000 with *NO* warning. Within three hours, U.S. troops were on the scene assisting with the recovery efforts. Within 8 hours, they’d shot and killed their first looters. Within 12 hours, the entire city had been evacuated. Within 24 hours, every single tent in the U.S. Army inventory, along with trainload after trainload of supplies, were on their way to San Francisco. And this was with *NO* warning, with 19th century technology (steam ships, steam trains, and telegraphs). That is the standard by which all major disaster relief efforts in America are measured. And by that standard, the response to the New Orleans disaster was a miserable failure.
BTW: Brigadier General Funston, who was on the spot in San Francisco, offered the assistance of his troops to the Mayor knowing that it was likely illegal and that he was likely to be court-martialled. But he was more concerned about saving lives than about his career. As it turned out, President Teddy Roosevelt rather agreed with Funston’s priorities, and gave him a medal instead. But then, this was in an era where we had real leaders at the top, and real men in charge of our military, instead of what Col David Hackworth derisively called “perfumed princes” today. Those were days when men didn’t give a flyin’ flip about permission or the proper paperwork if American’s lives were in danger, they did what was necessary to save lives and then accepted the consequences afterwards. Those days, alas, appear gone…
– Badtux the History Penguin
Defense Guy
No, it is merely meant to point out that the message Jesus brought wasn’t all pacifism and be nice to each other. There is certainly a component in that, but there are other parts as well and simply choosing one and ignoring the other is not right.
As to the OT, we must remember that to the Jews there is no New Testament and that even to Christians the Old Testament is not replaced by the new. The new is supposed to merely be a fulfillment of the prophecies of the old, and that Jesus does not contradict anything in the old.
DougJ
But you’ll admit that he was at least a little “pacifism and be nice to each other”.
How did Jesus feel about the blame game? On the one hand, he said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” but on the other he did kick the money changers out of the temple.
Defense Guy
DougJ – the next line in that statement should answer that.
I think the kicking the moneylenders out of the temple with violence was meant to indicate how strongly he felt about the defilement of his fathers ‘house’. I doubt he would be a big fan of the blame game, but I also doubt he would be a big fan of the persistent vegetative state of the ‘welfare state’ that left people so hopeless in Katrina’s wake.
The again, if pie and punch had been offered, it’s really anyones guess.
skip
Moving aircraft carriers “across the globe in 24 hours”?
So that is what they mean by “Swift Boats”!