As to the status of the Iraqi Constitution:
Iraqi politicians have failed to conclude negotiations on a draft constitution and it remains unclear when a final text may be printed, less than five weeks before a referendum, Iraqi and U.N. officials said on Sunday.
“We don’t know when they’ll finish,” Nicholas Haysom, the United Nations official charged with the printing, told Reuters, confirming that negotiations were continuing.
“We’d like it as soon as possible.”
Last week, after a series of missed deadlines, Haysom said he expected the National Assembly formally to endorse a final text on Sunday, after making an amendment in talks that followed parliament’s previous adoption of the draft on Aug. 28.
Any later, he had said, and it would be a “challenge” to get five million copies out to the electorate of about 14 million in time for them to digest it by the referendum on Oct. 15.
Voting on a Constitution they haven’t read and can’t agree on. Sounds like California and gay marriage.
p.lukasiak
Hey, why should the constitutional referendum be any different than the January elections?
I mean, when you hold elections for a legislature where the names of the “candidates” were often withheld for “safety” reasons, you are talking Potemkin elections. It didn’t matter to Bushco whether there was an informed electorate in January, and it won’t matter to Bushco whether or not the Iraqi people have a clue about the constitution they are expected to vote on.
docG
There is nothing in the history of the region that would indicate the Shi’ite, Sunni and Kurds can cooperatively work together to build an American style democracy. The Bush team has always operated from a jingoistic premise that “the American way is the best way and it will work for everyone, as we dictate it.”
We can only hope something positive happens for the Iraqis out of our invasion, but a Constitution and an imposed democracy most likely will not prevent civil war and an eventual theocratic dictatorship. Hell, papering over the major differences that were present during OUR Constitutional development (primarily states rights and slave ownership) only delayed our Civil War for a few decades.
Miller
It also sounds like most of the bills passed by Congress – few legislators read them, and the final versions are the result of closed-door conferences that take House and Senate versions of bills and transform them into something quite different from either.
TallDave
I expect Germany and Japan to collapse into militaristic dictatorships any day now.
Defense Guy
Yes, but only beacuse of BushCo. That Chimpy McHitlerBurton, is there no evil that cannot be placed on him?
Krista
I guess that setting a deadline on the Iraqi constitution wasn’t the best idea, huh? It’s going to take years (if ever) for them to get anything resembling a functional democracy.
TallDave
DefenseGuy,
Well, I was going to blame Israel and the Joooooooooooooos!, but you make a good point as well.
Defense Guy
TallDave
Well everyone knows that Chimpy is merely a puppet of the Zionist entity, so really the two ideas are the same.
srv
Iraq is Vietnam.
Iraq is Japan.
Iraq is Germany.
Please take some remedial history classes and get back to us. We had MacArthur in Japan, and a compliant Emperor and population. Google Weimar Republic. Then come back to us, and explain in detail, exactly how you are going to make the Sunni accept minority status.
Until then, you don’t have a plan.
Why are we still saying this 30 months later?
KC
Well, I guess they’re taking their time though, probably a good thing. Never saw any real reason to rush anyway.
Defense Guy
srv
Ah Yes, the same MacArthur who gave up the Philipines and was relieved of command in Korea. All more proof that the evil Chimpy McHalliburton and his minions of doom don’t have a clue what is going on. After all, if they had then MacArthur would have never made any mistakes or been a political pawn of the evil oligarchy that is the US.
You see, before the current selected leader, all of history was one great success story after another. Mistakes were never made, except mayve by Reagan and his attempts to punish Europe with the presence of our troops.
There is a need to study history, but it seems pointed in the wrong direction.
Krista
No, it is dumb to rush this. These conflicts and idealogical differences have had a very long time to stew (centuries, I presume? I haven’t taken a history class in a long time.) So to say that it can all be fixed up in this short of a time period, because of a piece of paper…well, that’s just naive, isn’t it? You can write all the constitutions you want, but if a large percentage of the population feels that their interests weren’t represented, it’s not going to work.
jg
Pre-invasion Iraq is being compared to pre-Hitler Germany or pre-war Japan?
Compare pre-invasion Iraq to the Balkans if you want to stay in europe. A region who’s borders were drawn by an outsider and a land full of people who for years didn’t have the freedom to hate each other on religious grounds like they have historically done. Now they are free to do so and there’s a lot of pent up frustrations.
Andrei
And of course the American public is willing to pay for our occupation the entire there during that long slog, right? It might take what… a few more years tops for them to get it right?
In the meantime, we’re ready to pay for it, especially in the aftermath of Hurrican Katrina. Especially because we are running a surplus economy right now.
Andrei
“the entire there”
should read: …the entire time there…
jobiuspublius
Who the hell needs security and credibility when you’re trying to buck history? Not Worst-POTUS-Ever.
Cyrus
This is getting annoying. I must have explained at least four times, using smaller and smaller words every time, why “creating” democracy in Germany and Japan is nothing like doing it in Iraq. And instead of someone admitting that the Iraq experiment really is unprecedented but claiming it must be tried nonetheless, or actually addressing the differences but trying to show why they don’t matter, or even admitting that Japan/Germany aren’t good examples but trying to point out ones that are, we get TallDave and Defense Guy trading snark. Personally, I come here for John Cole and debate, not Limbaugh Lite.
To summarize, as far as I know there are no historical examples of democracy being created by a foreign military. Japan and Germany don’t count for two reasons. First, they both had democracies before WWII. Germany had the Weimar Republic and Japan had the Taisho period. They both had the bureaucratic institutions of democracy and a majority of their populace with experience resolving conflicts and solving problems through democratic government. Both of their attempts at democracy obviously failed, and neither of them was as liberal as modern American democracy, but they happened.
And second, Japan and Germany were both bombed back to the Stone Age. Their spirit was broken. They were faced with the imminent and even credible threat of being wiped out. It’s a lot easier to institute reforms and make everyone follow them when there is no other alternative.
None of that is true in Iraq. Iraq has no democracy to revert to or build on, and our invasion (the invasion itself, though not the follow-up) was almost bloodless. (Which is good, for those of you who need to be told, but it puts limits on what an army can accomplish.) Now, are people like TallDave and Defense Guy going to explain why they think that doesn’t matter, or are they going to keep on entertaining each other?
Defense Guy
You are wise Cyrus. How dare we presume to take an optimistic tone in terms of the eventual outcome for Iraq. Truly the US has never imposed a democracy before and even if they had, it went off without a hitch from day one, unlike this obvious kludge. I will, from this day forth, only talk about how terrible it is that the minority Sunnis are not allowed to run roughshod over the rest of the country. Do you suppose it is to late to return Saddam to power?
Where would you like your statue?
srv
I think DG is admitting it was a mistake, but it’s OK, because everybody else did. And because having a real plan of some sort would be wimpy, those who don’t believe must all go back and read history until the current administration fails enough times to succeed.
jobiuspublius
Ah, Faith Based, a wise choice. Gather around. Let us all hold hands, close our eyes, and pray with Dear Leader. Shh, that’s ok, that’s ok my little precious. Prayer will make the booboo go away.
Defense Guy
No, I think you are cynical hate based delusionists whose only facts are whatever is conveinant to make Chimpy McHitler look bad. As to the Iraqi’s, f**k ’em Right?
jobiuspublius
Lowered Expectations
Defense Guy
Whatever that means you big thinker you.
srv
DG,
Oh, please do tell us the real facts.
I’m sure you said otherwise in 1985 (when I was protesting agaist SH with Iranian Expats at UT Austin). But maybe you and GB where there, hiding in the bushes, lending us your compassionate support.
Spare us your post-Invasion compassion.
Defense Guy
srv
I get it now, since I wasn’t in your direct line of site, it must be that my compassion for the oppressed is ‘newfound’. That you are now arguing against the providing of these freedoms must then mean that you changed your mind, that it?
Don’t worry, since you once were so bold to ‘speak truth to power’ with some Iranian expats, your creds as a compassionate human being can NEVER be questioned.
Cyrus
Defense Guy says:
How dare we presume to take an optimistic tone in terms of the eventual outcome for Iraq.
Fuck optimism. When you’re talking about the lives and welfares of millions of people, optimism not backed up by a mountain of evidence is playing Russian Roulette but aiming at someone else’s head. “How dare you” is exactly what lots of people wondered. I’m sure Republicans everywhere are proud of this. If that analogy doesn’t make the point, then no amount of calling you names will.
No, I think you are cynical
What’s wrong with being cynical?
hate based[sic]
What evidence do you have of this?
delusionists[sic]
Hey, we aren’t the ones looking for weapons of mass destruction… program… related activities.
whose only facts are whatever is conveinant [sic] to make Chimpy McHitler look bad.
Yes, because some evil liberals staged that photo op where Bush was playing a guitar while New Orleans drowned. They must have hog-tied him to get him on a plane to California, put a stick up his ass, tied wires to his wrists to play him like a puppet, and bribed a B-list singer, but us commies are capable of anything. And Scotch-taped his face into a smile. And “Mission Accomplished”?Post-hypnotic suggestion, obviously.
Bush is making himself look bad. I’m just trying to draw attention to it.
As to the Iraqi’s [sic], f**k ‘em Right?
First of all, is it really so hard for you to understand that American foreign policy in 2002 had more possible futures than “what we did” and “support Saddam?” Such as, for instance, “encourage democratic movements from within,” “wait for the Baathists to start eating their young,” “continue sanctions,” and even “go to war competently,” among others? I don’t know which of those would be best, but it doesn’t matter now, does it?
And second of all, I might, just maybe, consider not snorting milk through my nose at humanitarian arguments in favor of the war when the quality of life in Iraq is above pre-war standards. Hell, I’ll be generous, when it’s back up to them.
Defense Guy
I’ll leave the rest of your live-in-the-past self-serving crap to rot in it’s own glory, but will gladly poke at this gem. It takes some sort of balls to talk about humanitarian arguments and then move right into pre-war standards in Iraq. Yes, because pre-war Iraq was a humanitarian paradise. Keep drinking the Mikey Moron kool-aid big guy. If it was up to the give it more time big-thinkers like you, the people of Iraq would still be under the jack-boot of a tyrant.
I take it back, you are not a cynic, you are a self centered partisan.
TallDave
and a compliant Emperor and population.
Uh, no, actually we had a constant fear that the Japanese hardliners would assassinate the Emperor and declare the surrender null.
Iraq has no democracy to revert to or build on
Wrong again, Iraq once had a parliamentary gov’t too.
It’s a lot easier to institute reforms and make everyone follow them
Yep, it was real easy.
— Life Magazine, January 7, 1946
TallDave
Fuck optimism.
LOL There’s that can-do American spirit!
Theseus
Yes, where 60% of the Iraqi electorate showed up to vote. But I suppose it *feels* better for so-called “liberals” to denigrate and mock that act of courage and defiance in the face of enormous risks and danger. So long as you can take a cheap shot at Bushco. Fucking pathetic…
My guess is they will be far better informed than you will be or are.
You give me hope that no matter how much the president is likely to screw up, the alternative i.e. the Dems, consistently prove to be far worse…which is, inevitably, bad for America, in the long term.
Who said anything about American style democracy? Did you get a look at the Iraqi Constitution? The process is being driven by Iraqis trying find a way to reconcile Islam, democracy, their own history and the demands and needs of their constituents without resorting to the typical Arab answers of the past or of other Arab regimes. It is an enormously difficult process, made even more so by the Sunni’s intransigence. That said, there is no good reason why if given a fair and proper chance, that the Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis, especially the more moderate among them, can not come up with an accomedation which can work to everyone’s benefit. The alternative is one in which they will all lose. Freedom, liberty, democracy are not only “Western” virtues or monopolies. Just because Arabs don’t have a history of relatively liberal democratic governance does not mean that they are doomed to fail if they try.
Umm, because they ARE you know, the *minority*…unless it is your view that the Sunnis continue to dominate a country in which they constitute 20% of the population…
TallDave
Hey, as long as we’re pretending dmeocracy cannot be imposed, let’s not forget to throw in Italy (which was a dictatorship from its inception in 1861 through the end of WW II).
Let me guess, Italy doesn’t count because thousands of years ago the Greeks invented democracy there.
srv
DG,
Question all you want, but at least be consistent. They were not protesting for ‘democracy’. They were protesting against slaughter and US policies vis-a-vis the Iraq/Iran war. If you recall, there was a general “f**k them” attitude about that conflict at the time (not to mention all the stuff we didn’t know about US support).
If you opposed SH then and our policies vis-a-vis that war and said so, then I salute you and admit my error. If it’s something you thought about after Desert Storm, but kept to yourself, well, sanctions killed alot of kids, and it wasn’t a big secret. If you discovered it somewhere between the 2003 or 2004 talking points, then yes, it is newfound.
I do not believe it is G-d’s or our Founders will that we are here to militarily convert selected Oil-rich Nations to democracy, primarily as an ex-post facto justification (yes, we all know it was occassionally mentioned, mostly after we’d already shipped our troops over).
Now that we’re there, I too was once optimistic, but no more. We f’d it up, and optimism isn’t going to fix it. Like Desert Storm, I think the consequences are going to be much more costly than anyone yet presumes.
TallDave
srv,
You’re suffering from acute media exposure. If all I saw was body counts and negativity I’d soon lose my optimism too; in their proper context, they’re simply amusing symptoms of bias. I recommend reading some milblogs. Our soldiers know what’s going on; the MSM doesn’t know, or care enough to find out. A lot of positive things are happening.
Amusingly, there is one group of independent media who is reporting the war fairly. Can you guess who it is?
Hint 1: they didn’t exist before 2003.
Hint 2:
tzs
Note to everyone: if the rest of the world is on the x-y plane, Japan is way up there on the z-axis. Don’t try to use anything from Japanese history to argue for possible historical analogies elsewhere–it won’t work. (I lived and worked there for over ten years and have a lot of experience with their political processes.) What will be interesting will be this attempt to re-write Article 9 of the constitution. (Kozumi isn’t the only one trying it, by the way–the LDP had it written back into their platform in 1955-whatever that they would get rid of it. It’s only now that they are getting sufficient momentum to do so.)
Also please note that Italy has had how many governments since WWII? The normal cycle of constant upheaval has impacted a lot on how things actually get done in Italy. A heck of a lot goes on in the black market and in very “grey” channels. (Read Umberto Eco’s book entitled “Travels with a Salmon” for stories about dealing with Italian bureaucracy. Very funny.)
srv
TD,
You assume. I read milblogs every day. And I didn’t hear about SH and our support in the US media in the 80’s. You had to read people like Robert Fisk (I can just hear your gasp), back then to even know about it.
Body counts and Milblogs provide no more an accurate view of the big picture than the MSM.
I have one question. Put your Big Picture glasses on. The question I’ve asked since before the war started. How are you going to make the Sunni/Baathists accept minority status?
I can think of a couple of ways, and I’ll bet one of them will ultimately happen (in maybe 5-10 years). But I see no evidence of progress towards that end.
It’s not that I heart the Sunni (as DG will no doubt bring up). It’s that they exist, and you won’t have a thriving, happy peace and democracy until they play.
srv
Theseus,
Umm, yes. The Sunni are a minority (I think I said that).
The question is how to you make them acccept it? What do you think is going on in Iraq right now? How long do you think they can keep it up?
No, I don’t think they’re in their last throes.
TallDave
And I didn’t hear about SH and our support in the US media in the 80’s.
That’s because it mostly only existed in people’s imaginations. SH was an SU client.
The question I’ve asked since before the war started. How are you going to make the Sunni/Baathists accept minority status?
What’s the alternative? How were you planning to make the Shiites and Kurds (80% of the population) accept minority status? More mass graves, I guess.
The answer to your question, of course, is democracy. The Sunnis will accept it because it’s in their interest to. The Sunnis are not monsters; the majority just want to get on with life, not engage in endless terrorist war against a democratic gov’t.
TallDave
What do you think is going on in Iraq right now?
Primarily, a power vacuum.
The big Bush mistake was something that everyone overlooks: not holding elections immediately, before the insurgency could get established. Remember, spring/summer 2003 was relatively quiet.
I’m familiar with all the reasons we didn’t. They would have been terrible, terrible elections as voter lists would have been thrown together overnight. But all that messiness would have been overshadowed by the symbolism and legitimacy that only elections bring. We could have then cobbled together a crappy Iraqi military force that still outmatched anything the insurgents could pull together, and they could hold all these Iraqi towns that are only now being brought under permanent control.
But, after our initial fumblings, they are finally being brought under control. If you read milblogs, you should know that. First Najaf, then Mosul, now Tal Afar, soon Ramadi, Qaim, etc. And the Iraqis have enough troops to hold them now. And the Iraqi people support the efforts of their elected gov’t.
Things are moving forward, slowly but with unstoppable inertia. There’s every reason to think this will succeed.
jg
Yup. They aren’t worth a single american soldiers life to me. I can’t imagine anyone who calls himself a conservative would approve of the US military going to war because a dictator is abusing his citizens. No chance.
First of all the spring and summer were not quiet. Second that is the most laughable ‘mistake’ I ever heard. The mistake is not having any plan, not that he didn’t go with your plan.
Boronx
Just what the &$@# is that supposed to mean? Did they kick all of the Sunnis out?
Boronx
The big Bush mistake was something that everyone overlooks: not holding elections immediately, before the insurgency could get established. Remember, spring/summer 2003 was relatively quiet.
The first governor of Iraq, James Garner, wanted to hold elections right away. It was one of the reasons he was fired.
Many, many people in the “reality based community” are aware of this and have discussed it openly for years.
Boronx
How much of the January elections, in both date and constitution, were a concession to Sistani for brokering the ceasefire with Al Sadr? Until then, Bush had refused to name a date for an election.
Boronx
Iraqgate was a major scandal in the Reagan/Bush I administrations. They had defied congress to send aid to Saddam after he had used chemical weapons.
Before that time, the US had openly supported Saddam with weapons and money during the Iran/Iraq war, a war that he started without provocation.
Before Saddam ruled Iraq, he was a CIA assassin. During his rise to power, the CIA would pass him intel useful in discovering his enemies and killing them.
narvy
TallDave – I thought I’d lost you. Not that that’s a bad thing.
Didn’t you hear? They’ve already done that once. It was in all the papers.
The correct spelling is “Jews”. Please proofread your work before submitting it.
narvy
Cyrus –
Your post on Germany and Japan and history and all that was excellent, but attempting something serious and thoughtful in a thread to which TallDave is contributing (if that is the right word) is a fool’s errand. Or should that be a TallDave’s errand.
I’ve already had one encounter with TD in another thread. He is incomparable at comparing the non-comparable, and he creates chains of logic that twist through the fourth dimension. But I appreciate your effort even though it will do nothing to change TallDave’s mind, because you can’t change something that doesn’t exist.
[End of invective.]
narvy
TallDave –
As I read down the thread, I find posts under your name that are literate and non-accusatory. Are you an impostor? Are you doing a DougJ number and assuming multiple personae? Was the stupid stuff just a joke? If it was a joke, you certainly got me.
narvy
This is an error. You mean “… anyone who is a conservative …” Many who call themselves conservative, like, oh, anyone in the Bush administration, thinks it’s just fine. Self-description and actual being are two different things.
srv
narvy –
There must be a term for blog multi-personality disorder. But this thread appears to be slightly more civilized for now.
Well, I know Ronnie only thought it was everyone elses imagination, but Iran-Contra et al, kinda showed otherwise.
Well, alot of the admins fans would disagree with that. I don’t, but I don’t see why it’s in the best interest of those who are now out of power.
Maybe in 5 or 10 years, after they run out of money, bombs and options.
eileen from OH
I bow to those who’ve already posted who have superior knowledge re: the Iraqi constitution. What hit me, as someone noted above, is that this sounds a lot like our Congress, particularly the Patriot Act which was passed after giving the Dems approximately 1 hour to read a gahzillion pages. (I exaggerate, of course, but not by much.) It is egregious and despicable that the party-in-power (and I care not WHICH party) can pull this kind of crap.
When I run the country, this will be one of the first things I outlaw. If you are expected to vote on something, even IF your vote will not make a dif, you deserve a goddam chance to at least read it. And while I’m on a roll, next comes a ban on pork barrel projects, even if they are from (gasp!) MY state. Next is gerrymandering, even if it (gasp) favors MY party. Finally, any corp that avoids taxes by incorporating in Bermuda doesn’t get no steenkin’ government contracts.
Sorry if I digressed from the point of John’s post. I distract easily.
Boronx
And while I’m on a roll, next comes a ban on pork barrel projects, even if they are from (gasp!) MY state.
I’ve thought one good use for intrnet voting Perot-style would by as some kind of line item veto on spending bills.
BadTux
For the record: I think Iraq could have turned out well, if we had a competent President and administration. It would have been hard, but doable.
I was against invading Iraq because I investigated and saw no threat to America there (no ties to al-Qaeda, no usable weapons of mass destruction, no real state support of terrorism other than against its own people) and, as a small-government Libertarian, believe that the one and only job of the U.S. government is to protect Americans (*not* Iraqis, if the Iraqis want democracy, let them die for it, not us). I also read Pappa Bush’s book where he explained all of the ethnic and religous mess that would have happened if we’d gone into Iraq back in ’92.
But once Junior Bush made the decision to invade, well, I crossed my fingers and hoped for the best.
And hoped.
And hoped.
And hoped.
And had my hopes dashed over and over again, as the Bush administration made mistake after mistake, from not going in with sufficient forces to police the country, to disbanding the army, to not holding municipal elections early and getting people into place with real popular support early so that the insurgency could have been nipped in the bud. Then there was Fallujah, which was the tipping point at which I shook my head and said it was irretrievable because the sheer mass of mistakes we’d made had passed a tipping point to where it wasn’t fixable (think Vietnam in 1971). Frankly, only someone who is delusional can say that things are going well in Iraq, or that there is any end in sight.
Compare with the situation in post-war Japan and post-war Europe. There were no (zero) deaths of U.S. soldiers caused by enemy action in the aftermath of their respective governments surrendering. There were no (zero) incidents of post-war elected leaders of either country requiring protection by U.S. troops because otherwise they would be killed by their own countrymen. There was no ethnic strife, because both nations are uniform ethnically. There was no religious strife, the worst religous differences were in Germany where you had the Bavarian Catholics and the northern Lutherans, but Lutherans and Catholics long ago quit slaughtering each other, something you can’t say about Sunni and Shia.
None of that is true in Iraq. You have U.S. soldiers being killed. You have a government that would cease existing if not for protection by U.S. troops. You have Shia and Sunni bombing and killing each other. You have Kurds and Arabs and Turkomen bombing and killing each other. Even the most partial of people has to say it is a mess. And a predictable mess. Bush’s own daddy predicted it before Junior Bush invaded. I just hoped that Bush and his Administration had a plan to deal with the mess that Poppy predicted. Unfortunately, faith is not a plan, and my hope, alas, was misplaced.
Them’s the facts. Spin as you will, but facts are facts. If Iraq is anything, it is, as someone else mentioned, Yugoslavia — a pasted-together nation where only a brutal dictator was capable of holding it together and, once the brutal dictator was out of the picture, the whole thing started spinning out of control until it spun apart in the bloodiest mess to happen in Europe in the post-WWII era. And we’ve managed to put ourselves right into the middle of yet another Yugoslavia-style mess (for the record, I was against the Clinton administration getting involved in that mess too — I’m pretty consistent in that respect, it had nothing to do with America and Americans, thus the U.S. government had no business intervening there). It would have been a tough situation to handle even with the best of presidents. Which, alas, we don’t have — instead, we have a President who plays guitar while New Orleans sinks, and congratulates a failed FEMA director for “doing a good job” while people die from lack of water and medication. Talk about your “Nero fiddles while Rome burns” moments…
– Badtux the Libertarian Penguin
TallDave
narvy,
If you had a point there, I missed it. I guess you’re better with insults. Well, stick with what you’re good at.
And I didn’t hear about SH and our support in the US media in the 80’s.
That’s because it mostly only existed in people’s imaginations.
Well, I know Ronnie only thought it was everyone elses imagination, but Iran-Contra et al, kinda showed otherwise.
I’m sorry, Iran-Contra proves were supporting Saddam, how, again?
The facts are: the U.S. supplied less than 2% of Saddam’s arsenal during a period in which Iraq was the largest arms importer in the world.
Our “support” of Saddam boils down to… a handshake from Rummy. That and $5 will get you a latte at Starbucks.
TallDave
For BadTux and jg,
There was all kinds of planning for postwar. As I said, there were colossal mistakes, but to say there was “no planning” just exposes you as unserious.
TallDave
Meanwhile, Iraq’s elected President Talabani said today that he believes the U.S. will be able to withdraw 50,000 troops by year’s end.
And another lefty meme dies.
srv
TD,
Among others, we provided satellite photos of Iranian troop positions to SH while we knew he was using chemical weapons. Then we talked out the other side of our mouth condeming him using weapons.
And while we didn’t fly C-5 loads of guns and ammo to Baghdad, we did strongly urge the Saudi’s and others to contribute to Iraq.
That’s a bit more than a handshake.
I’m sure you’ll try to rationalize all that realpolitik, but that’s another discussion. The point to DG was the REALITY that our gov’t and public had a general “f**k them” attitude towards Iraqis and Iranians at the time, but now legions of the faithful have a newfound claim of having always wanted freedom for them.
srv
You guys keep declaring victory. We’ll see who’s view of reality is better in a few years.
Veeshir
srv, do you have cites for your remarks about how we helped SH?
Iran/Contra was where we sold small arms and artillery to Iran, who were fighting Iraq, and used the money to fund anti-commie guerillas in central America.
If we were supplying so much to Saddam, why, in 1990 and 2003, were we fighting Russian tanks, French planes and German bunkers?
My personal favorite so far was somebody regurgitating the “We didn’t mention democracy in Iraq very seriously” talking point.
The operational name for the war has beenOperation Iraqi Freedom.
Also, look at the Iraq war resolution
I’ll provide a quote
Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;
This place just keeps getting funnier and funnier.
Tall Dave, are you a lion tamer by any chance?
narvy
To TallDave –
You were very offensive in the Alternative Fuels thread. I’m happy to discuss and debate — that’s why I post here, but when someone hurls accusations of “Anti-American” and “unpatriotic” at one with whom he disagrees, it only encourages defensiveness and, for me, verbal vengeance. I responded to your post with what I thought was an eloquent argument, but I never saw response.
When I found your first posts in this thread, I thought the first was silly and the second offensive, and it looked to me like an opportunity to make fun of someone who had been very hostile. Then I read your third post, which was civil, well-written, non-hostile, and non-insulting and told you (admittedly, in a sarcastic way) that it was very different from what I had seen from you before. That was my point.
I disagree with the positions you’ve put forth, but if you want to discuss issues civilly, without name-calling, and acknowledge the possibility that someone, whose view of problems confronting America is different from yours, may still be patriotic, I’m all for it.
This is a fairly long poast for me. I must be taking this seriously.
narvy
To eileen from OH –
A legislator who has not been allowed enough time to understand what’s in a bill should vot against it. This will never happen, because they’re all afraid not to vote for something that no matter how inimical to the voters’ interests, is being touted as A Good Thing.
srv
Veeshir,
Novak, Washington post and NYT have written quite a bit about chemical weapon precursors, satellite imagery, Iraq and the US in the last few years. You can also try Robert Windrem’s (MSNBC) “Rumsfeld key player in Iraq policy shift”.
If you really cared, you’d have already looked.
Re Iran/Contra, you forget (or don’t know about) TOW and HAWK missiles. The Iran/Contra media investigations uncovered a series of dealings with Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc. You can read a book, look at microfiche, or just drink the lattes TD mentions.
Details of the actual intelligence support to Iraq came later, but there was speculation even back then. Walsh, Abrams, Schultz, hell, even Hersh and Ollie have written books about it.
Theseus
Here’s some insignificant news that won’t likely get any air time in the MSM:
link
Damn Iraqis, they keep forgeting the so-called “liberal” all-is-doomed-this-is-a-quagmire/catastrophe meme. Bad Iraqis. BAD BAD Iraqis…
srv
Well, as long as you don’t count the Al-Anbar province (and I don’t know the other two that are missing), 88% want to participate according to this poll from some probably US funded “center”. Not that anyone knows what they’re voting on yet, but it’ll say “Constitution” at the top. I mean, our legislators don’t read the bills their passing either.
Regardless, reassuring if we have 88% of 15 provinces.
But look, even if we fantasize that 80%+ want a secular humanist Jeffersonian democracy, y’all might stop declaring victory every couple of weeks. Americans aren’t going to give up because they hate freedom. It’ll be because somebody kept selling them unrealistic expectations.
Prediction: If people keep talking about 50K troops coming home, much of the insurgency will go to ground soon and wait us out.
Veeshir
srv, I didn’t say it, I won’t do your research.