This was a pretty amusing read at dKos, and not unlike herding cats- Do’s and Dont’s for Anti-War Rally This Saturday :
Don’t march to the Halliburton building:
Guess what, most of the workers aren’t there on Saturday. We’ve done it two times with little to show for it, enough is enough.
Part of me wants to attend these events to relive my old Dead glory days.
The other half of me remembers that since I am not stoned (as I might have been once or twice at a Dead show), I think patchouli stinks.
I don’t neccessarily dislike hippies, but patchoulli definitely stinks like ass.
“we’ve done it two times with little to show for it, enough is enough.”
Bit like the US army attacking Tal Afar,except they’ve done it three times not twice
I’ve had enough “direct action” to know its value. If you don’t go into it with the right mindset, good planning, experience and a hell of a lot of discipline it just ends up making you and the thing you’re protesting both look bad.
Thanks at least in part to “direct action” most Americans now hate environmentalists almost as much as the polluters.
BTW, an intriguing post on an interesting new blog.
Well, with only 32% of those interviewed in today’s CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll now supporting Georgie Bush’s family vanity war in Iraq, chances are no matter where you go this weekend you’re going to run into lots of people who agree that this war is a wretched and unnecessary disaster.
Poor Georgie. The whole mess is probably driving him to drink.
One other fun finding in the world of polling. The new ARG Poll shows the Little President rolling now with a 37% approval rating. Nice.
What seems strange to me is the right-wing call the anti-war crowd “radical”. Seems to me it is more radical when your cheering on those that are killing people…
I think that since the age of cocooning, people are less likely to go to demonstrations. And, yes, there are what the right likes to call “the usual suspects.” But during the Vietnam Debacle there were the usual suspects, there were the usual suspects, and then one day it was the vast majority of the country.
The problem with any group that opposes government or corporate policy is that the government and corporations have much more money, have control of law enforcement, and just love to infiltrate organizations and then have their spies agitate, create dissension and try to polarize the public against them. Ask Henry Ford. Ask J. Edgar.
Still, sometimes you have to stand up against tyranny. That is, unless patchouli is more offensive to you than the stench of death.
If these jerks were so concerned they would be helping out the hurricane voctims instead of going to washington D.C. to go around waving their stupid signs in the air
You realize this makes absolutely no logical sense, don’t you?
eileen from OH
The thing that most people forget about the Vietnam protests. . .it wasn’t the Dems against the Republicans or the conservatives against the liberals, as it seems to be this time. It was against the WAR and party didn’t matter. We protested against Johnson just as loudly (maybe louder) as we did against Nixon.
Part of me thinks it won’t matter and times have changed and the absence of a draft makes it less immediate. But those of us who lived through those times believe, and I still do, that it DID matter back then and it DID hasten the changing of public opinion, and it did it without the internet. We were crazy, idealistic, long-haired, drugged out hippies back then, according to the conventional and media wisdom. Kent State changed a lot of that, when people saw the inevitable culmination of hostility towards protestors. While there was more than enough blame to go around on all sides in that, it was a tipping point. At least from the standpoint of the way the public viewed demonstrations.
I love protests from the standpoint that dissension in a democracy is a good thing. I also believe that, at least historically, they HAVE made a difference. Whether this weekend’s will or not I don’t know. But I wish I could be there. (And, unlike Vietnam, I won’t have to ask my Mom to drop me off.)
eileen from OH
Love ya, Eileen, but this myth needs to be busted.
I was a Vitenam war protester, and like a lot of people like me, I was well groomed, wore a tie, had a job and supported a family.
Fact is, the anti-war movement cut accross a lot of lines. Party lines, as you point out in your excellent post (as in my case, a solid Dem who came to detest LBJ and his lunatic cabinet), class lines, race lines, geographic lines.
Not unlike what is happening now, in terms of the general support for the Iraq war. Except for the insane core of Bush’s base, the collapse of support is wide.
eileen from OH
Uh, Ppgaz, I know it’s a myth. That’s why I said that it was the image, according to the conventional wisdom/media. It’s exactly how we were portrayed back then. Regardless of who or what we were, we were all stereotyped as Abbie Hoffman/Jerry Rubin types.
And just as most of us didn’t fit into a stereotype, the new crop of protestors don’t either.
I just sort of misread your earlier post. I think we are saying essentially the same thing.
Did you catch the O’Reilly-Donahue thing? They went toe to toe on Fox, and at the end, O’Reilly said this amazing thing, out of the blue. If you watch the video or hear the audio, let me know if you were as amazed as I was to hear O’Reilly say this:
I am still processing this information, I am not sure what to make of it.
Yes, even at Fox, they’re starting to crack, so he’s in damage control mode. Before they could redirect attention to the mostly invisible (at least on TV) “anti-war” crowd, and demonize one soldiers mom, but it isn’t sticking anymore. Now O’Reilly and crusaders are adopting the “noble-cause, but George screwed-the-pooch” line. George’s reality distortion field is wearing off, and he’s obviously paralyzed.
Worst Uniter Ever.
Even Osama can’t save him now.
Well PPGZ, O’Reilly has been saying it for a while, with every kind of prevarication he can come up with. In other words, if it turns out good…(“You got till August of 2006”), that Iraq on it’s own, running a well oiled machine, the he’s on board. If it’s still a struggle, he’ll lick his finger, stick it in the air, then follow the wind. Bottom line, planes fly into buildings, we got a religious war on our hands for the rest of my life. Of course many of you are too stupid or politically motivated to realize or accept this simple fact. And the fact that we are in a regligious war with animals is a fact.
Ah, the dehumanization of your opponent. Wartime Propaganda 101. We are not in a religious war (OR a regligious war either). Can’t be, because we are not members of one religion. We are in an ideology war. And it’s not just against militant Islamic fundamentalism, it’s against all sects of militant fundamentalism (yes, including Christianity). We are fighting militant Muslims now, but I don’t think it will be too long before militant Christians begin to clamor for a violent overthrow of the secular government, and militant Jews get violent over the Israeli peace process.
And they are not animals. They are sorely misguided (and often evil) people who are awfully good at convincing other sorely misguided people to join them. This is the part where most of the neo-cons just don’t get it–it’s not enough to kill every single militant fundamentalist out there. We have to stop new ones from being created, too.
I protested against the war before I went into the army, I went to anti-war functions (I remember a big anti-war show in New York City with Simon and Garfunkel, PP&Mary, some comedians, etc.). After I got out in the fall of ’73, Bush was still AWOL doing grad work in Massachusetts around then, the protests were pretty much over. So was the war.
Re eileen from OHIO, in the late fall of 1969 Benjamin Spock came over to our college in northern New Jersey to speak against the war. I was a member of the Student Peace Union. Someone mentioned about my problems with the draft board (I was #1 in Nixon’s lottery and I was quitting school), and Spock said quite simply that it would take people like me dying in order to stop the war. That is, white and middle-class. I think what he said then is still appropriate.
If the Bush monied class actually had to go into the army for a couple of years and risk their lives maybe it would slow their death marches.
But even without it, this misadventure is coming to an ending. It’s all over but the last man to die.
The mind boggles…
Bottom line, your deductive reasoning is flawed. Planes fly into buildings = religious war? Maybe planes fly into battleships = war, but your equation doesn’t hold up since this is an ideological war (as has been noted). You are too stupid or politically motivated to realize or accept this simple fact.
Your quip about us fighting “animals” is too textbook wartime propaganda (as has been noted) to even expound upon. Just remember the next time you take your dose of medicine from the government not to swallow the entire spoon.
I’ve volunteered to fill in for demimondian at least until he wakes up.
We should consider ouselves extremely lucky to encounter this particular subspecies of Trollus troglodytes, who unlike their more civilized relatives practically never venture out of their native habitat deep in the echo-chambers of wingnuttia. While extremely loud and often unpleasant, their hothouse environment has atrophied their logic skills to the point that they pose more of a threat to their own credibility than anything else.
Thriving on hostility and rhetoric, they find humorous and friendly opposition extremely uncomfortable and quickly retreat in a cloud of profanity.
You hit the nail on the head. In modern warfare, the people who decide to go to war, and who control how the war is fought, have to make absolutely no personal sacrifices in the war. They don’t go, their sons and daughters don’t go. This is not like hundreds of years ago when the king would be on the battlefield along with the soldiers, and could see people they knew being killed. Our “kings” never see the battlefield, and neither does anybody that they care about. It’s like a big game of Risk to them.
I liked this one from dkos:
I predict that this little piece of advice will be totally lost on the Mumidiots and you will see at least ten “Free Mumia” signs at the protest.
Yeah, this advice is good. I was in Denver for the first anniversary of the war protest thing. We marched, but also had to spend half an hour listening to a radical feminist rail on about how “wombs are being attacked.” I would recomend going to the protests, and if you disagree, try to actually start a conversation. Not in an asshole ProtestWarrior way, just honestly try and talk to some people. There is usually enough sanity around to find a descent discussion.
B. Minich, PI
Good advise. I wouldn’t join them because I disagree, but it seems that the anti-war movement has too many messages competing with each other, and does too many worthless things to get noticed.
I would add one to that list.
Don’t block traffic. This is just going to get commuters mad at you, and won’t help your cause. Their first reaction will be “Danged war protestors, keeping me stuck in traffic”, not “Wow, this makes me think about the war and whether it is right or not.”
Sorry, been watching these people for years. You can try to call it anything you want. But a group of religious fanatics is involved in an operation to kill every single person that doesn’t agree with their religious, oh let’s call them theories for you shit heads. They have upped their attacks and carnage through the years, until they went too far and are now involved in a war. No the US is not a relgious organization (A very good thing), but everything, the hatred and continuing attacks on Israel, the marine bombings in Lebanon, the Khofar Towers attacks, the embassy attacks, the Cole Attacks, and 9-11 hve been perpetrated by religious fantatics that have the thought processes of crazed animals. I could care less if my thoughts or statements “dehumanize” anybody. My interest is to get religious fanatics to quit trying to kill EVERYBODY that isn’t like them. After all morons, that includes you and Cindy and Hillary, and KOS, and everybody else. The neat part will be when they accomplish it (Just positing a thought here), then start to turn on the less pure amongst them, until there’s one crazed filthy animal left.
A special note for Krista: Every war sends the young. Since the dawn of time. For most of history, most of those young were forced conscription. That is not the case here. Perhaps you and you’re fellow travelers should crack a book sometime.
OOh, couple of interesting thoughts I didn’t comment on.
I type too fast, excuse the spelling and grammatical errors, I note nobody else every screws up.
I have no love for Christianity or any other religion, and living in Georgia, I know you gotta watch the baptists…they’re crazy too. They would without a doubt try to run this country as a theocracy. They just aren’t the crazed animals flying planes into buildings, cutting heads off etc…at this moment. My real anger on all of this shit, is that it has all happened over religion. Every single bit of it, and as an atheist I am profoundly insulted by crazed animal religious fanatics. If you want to discuss geo-political issues, that is a whole nother deal, and as I believe I’m mentioned before, the US has played around too much in other countries affairs for a long time. But that’s just now what’s happening.
Tell them it’s about ideology. It’s about religion to them. You call it what you want if it makes you feel better. Matter of fact go tell one that, and think ideology as somebody’s cutting your fucking head off.
The war protest “thing”. Oh, you made it to the happening! Did you get any chicks? Did ya’ll shower before (You know, break the once a month or so rule)?
Donald is the kind of guy who gives atheism a bad name.
I’m not aware that atheism has a bad name, just derision from weaklings who have no faith in their own power. Pussies I tell you, pussies.