The 82nd Airborne is allegedly involved this time (more here):
In separate statements to the human rights organization, Captain Fishback and two sergeants described systematic abuses of Iraqi prisoners, including beatings, exposure to extremes of hot and cold, stacking in human pyramids and sleep deprivation at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base near Falluja. Falluja was the site of the major uprising against the American-led occupation in April 2004. The report describes the soldiers’ positions in the unit, but not their names.
The abuses reportedly took place between September 2003 and April 2004, before and during the investigations into the notorious misconduct at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. Senior Pentagon officials initially sought to characterize the scandal there as the work of a rogue group of military police soldiers on the prison’s night shift. Since then, the Army has opened more than 400 inquiries into detainee abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan, and punished 230 enlisted soldiers and officers…
In the newest case, the human rights organization interviewed three soldiers: one sergeant who said he was a guard and acknowledged abusing some prisoners at the direction of military intelligence personnel; another sergeant who was an infantry squad leader who said he had witnessed some detainees’ being beaten; and the captain who said he had seen several interrogations and received regular reports from noncommissioned officers on the ill treatment of detainees.
In one incident, the Human Rights Watch report states, an off-duty cook broke a detainee’s leg with a metal baseball bat. Detainees were also stacked, fully clothed, in human pyramids and forced to hold five-gallon water jugs with arms outstretched or do jumping jacks until they passed out, the report says. “We would give them blows to the head, chest, legs and stomach, and pull them down, kick dirt on them,” one sergeant told Human Rights Watch researchers during one of four interviews in July and August. “This happened every day.”
The sergeant continued: “Some days we would just get bored, so we would have everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid. This was before Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did it for amusement.”
He said he had acted under orders from military intelligence personnel to soften up detainees, whom the unit called persons under control, or PUC’s, to make them more cooperative during formal interviews.
“They wanted intel,” said the sergeant, an infantry fire-team leader who served as a guard when no military police soldiers were available. “As long as no PUC’s came up dead, it happened.” He added, “We kept it to broken arms and legs.”
What contact did leadership have with Gitmo’s Gen. Miller? Who were these intelligence offiers? CIA?
And, sadly, I guess I should point this out. This is the unit patch for the 82nd:
The AA in the patch stands for ‘All American,’ as the unit, when formed in 1917, came from all the states. All-American and torture are now tied together, and that just INFURIATES me beyond words.
Bob
Bully Boy Bush’s legacy.
Jim Henley
Haven’t you heard? ANSWER are a bunch of no-good commies. Keep your eye on the ball!
John Cole
Heh. Well- ANSWER is scum. But beating prisoners is unconscionable.
stickler
You go into the occupation with the leadership you have, not the leadership you wish you had. They set the tone and have final responsibility.
Maybe the buck will stop with a few more privates and corporals. Round up the usual
suspectsbad apples.Nelson Muntz
So what are you going to do about it? You are known by the company you keep, my fine Rethuglican friend.
Ha Ha!
Gamer
You want innocence and purity of conviction? Won’t join anyone who isn’t pure of thought and deed? Good luck and I hope you’re used to loneliness. The best this world has to offer is a side wanting what you want and amenable to changing its methods for getting it. Even then, you’ll have to be vigilant. Are the leaders really doing anything to accomplish what you want, and are they avoiding methods that denigrate the very aims they seek?
DougJ
It all sounds like a fraternity prank to me. There are plenty of fraternities where the pledges are kept locked up in cells for months at a time and routinely beaten and tortured by the upper classmen. It’s all good fun.
ppGaz
Good lord, man, are you strung out on Oxycontin?
Pull yourself together.
Tim F
I can’t be the only one who wants to give Muntz a wedgie.
srv
Perfectly normal, perfectly healthy all-American behavior… What never ceases to amaze me is the amazement people have about this stuff happening. Whatever world they think they live in, it isn’t reality.
Try talking to some ex-Cons out of a State Penn some time.
slide aka Joe Albanese
Rummy, you’re doing a heck of a job!
DougJ
I agree, srv. What I don’t get is why the Muslim world is so upset by all of this. Don’t they know that freedom is messy?
Defense Guy
The ‘Muslim world’ has every right to be upset, as this crap is not acceptable. In no way is that mitigated by the fact that in the ‘Muslim world’ this kind of crap is a daily occurance. If I say they are worse, which they are, it should in now way detract from how wrong this is.
DougJ
I’m glad you put “Muslim world” in quotes.
I think that for us to have sensible policy in the middle east we have to start to understand that Muslims are a pretty diverse group. I don’t claim to understand the complexities of it myself, but my understanding is that Wahabism is our biggest problem and that it exists primarily on the Saudia Arabain peninsula.
That’s why I object to this whole “Islamofascism” thing. Saddam Hussein was a secular fascist. You can’t lump him in with Osama who is a fascist of a different sort. If you want to use the word “Islamofascism” you can only apply it to people who are fascist in an Islamic way and not to fascists who happen to reside in Islamic countries. Otherwise, it is just stupid and reductionist.
Kimmitt
Me too.
Tim F
You could fairly describe Osama as a member of the religious right. Saddam’s reign more closely resembled fascism, where religion might have played a role but was hardly the point of the regime.
So indeed people who use the term ‘islamofascism’ willfully engage in stupidity. Which is especially counterproductive when the first rule of winning a war is understanding the enemy.
A helpful exercise would be to consider who is most outraged in the muslim world, and who is engaging in torture. (my lord, who knew there was more than one kind of muslim?) You will find that the people complaining are much more likely to be the tortured than than the torturers.
ppGaz
To say nothing of the fact that the clientele down at the Waffle House will have no fucking idea on earth what you are talking about. Nor will they care.
Quasi-intellectual arcana of this sort are of no interest to Mom and Pop America. Mom and Pop, the beleaguered middle of the middle class, who have now figured out that the war was a mistake, that it has not made us safer, and that indefinite ongoing involvement in it is not going to be worth it.
“Islamofascist” my ass. The average person wouldn’t know that term from “idiopathic dysrhythmia.”
bbbustard
I’ve got to give you a lot of credit for sticking with the idea that torture is not, or at least should not, be acceptable. Doesn’t some of the abuse you get about it from the right disappoint you?
John Cole
I really don;t recall any abuse from the right on the issue.
Lis Riba
Did you see this bit from ThinkProgress?
So Frist knew of the torture and still refused to permit legislation that might’ve stopped it.
Ray
ppGaz
“Mom and Pop, the beleaguered middle of the middle class, who have now figured out that the war was a mistake, that it has not made us safer, and that indefinite ongoing involvement in it is not going to be worth it.”
You sure try and speak for a lot of people don’t you? I’ll give you that the mom/pop at the “Waffle House” do not understand the broader picture but don’t count them out yet.
I also liked the “media-burst” on this report the day before the anti-American protest in DC. You think the silent majority is blind? They are not my friend.
And yes the war has not been defined correctly. The GWoT is wrong. It is a war against “Islamofascist” and the biggest target in this war is on deck and was before the IAEA today.
Will you defend them too?
ppGaz
They speak quite well for themselves, actually.
It’s not a “war on” anything. Just because you are holding a position, and there is killing and shit going on around you, doesn’t mean you have a “war on” something.
In order to have a “war on” something, you have to have a plan, some model for the thing that advances one side at the expense of the other side (the thing being “warred on.”)
This is not the case. There is no “war on” anything. There is just war.
ppGaz
To stick to your, uh, construction, there is no “war against” anything, either. Same rules apply as to “war on.”
There’s no “war on terror”. No “war against islam-whatever.”
Just …. war.
It’s a slogan. “We are winning the war on drugs.” – R. Nixon
“I do not intend that the war against poverty become a series of uncoordinated and unrelated efforts” – L.B. Johnson
Ray
ppGaz
Who is “they” here? Mom/pop at the waffle shop or the media? We all see what’s going every day and we continue to take notice.
“There is no “war on” anything. There is just war.”
As opposed to what? Peace? Your right though I’ll give you that. War has not been declared and it should be, and the recepient is: Islamofascism. The war in Iraq needed to be done. You know it and I know it and “most” folks at the waffle shop do too. My take on this is this: Is it not being done in 5 minutes dragging you down? Are you afraid?
What’s more is that “stuck on stupid” poll number the “media” has been crying for last month or so. Is that magical 60% number who are supposed to be “against” the war in Iraq.
That’s not what it say’s but every (expletive insert) media, press print or TV kept on saying it even though the 60% number WAS SAYING THEY DIDN’T LIKE THE WAY THE WAR WAS GOING NOT THAT THEY OPPOSED IT. WHAT WE REALLY ARE SAYING IS GET THE JOB DONE!!! AND QUIT HOLDING BACK!!!
Take care of Syria and Iran and be done with it. We don’t care what the rest of the world thinks. Enough is enough with the cross border support. The rabid MEDIA here in the United States AP/CNN all of them.
And no I’m not yelling at you as Post sometimes come across. I’m yelling in general for other readers to see the level of hate the United States media is sowing for themselves. They at present are not part of solution they are part of this war dragging out.
tBone
So you’re speaking for that entire 60%? You sure try to speak for a lot of people, don’t you?
Narvy
You left out being able to tell when it’s over and which side won.
And now for something completely different:
Ray, I believe that there were anti-American protests in a number of American cities. I was asked to join some anti-American friends in the anti-American protest in Los Angeles but I didn’t go, because I’m not anti-American, and anyway I had a conflicting anti-American commitment.
Ray, I never call people names in my postings, but YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT!!!
Well, hardly ever. Of course, one could argue that anyone who considers exercising the right of free assembly to express opposition to a government action anti-American is not really a person, so I guess my record is unblemished.
Ray
tBone
Oh dear you nit pick a % number point whether it’s 5,10,20,30 or all but youmiss the main point about the media deception and calling a spade a spade basically.
All the major media used the word “opposed” the war when in the poll it was “didn’t like they way it was going” and it was the highest number they could find and tweak to meet their needs.
NOW I’M SHOUTING. Your a goof for trying to spin something back. Nice try but it ain’t sticking sunshine. Have a nice life.
Narvy
While I agree that it needs to be over and done, I don’t think that’s what you meant. Could you please explain WHY it had to be done? I’m serious, I want to know your reasoning.
Narvy
Ray says:
Well, we certainly have enough atomic weapons to do that. Do you think you could you slake your bloodlust by watching “Rome” on HBO? There’s a lot of fighting and no American soldiers get killed.
Narvy
Sorry, I forgot the honorific. That should have been “Ray the Fucking Idiot says”
Ray
Narvy
Ya I’m fucking idiot. You can handle what I wrote or how you world got torn down around you with your lies the media keeps feeding you and you claim does not suppor your cause. And yes they were “anit-American” protest as the great bigger organizer across the coutnry was A.N.S.W.E.R.
If people wanted to protest the “war” or “lack of a plan” go for it just be careful who you align yourself with is all. Yes an anti-war protest is a noble thing to do when justified but these are carefully scripted media events with ties to very shady organziations.
Ray
Narvy
Come on Narvy your down in points now. Still contine to attack the person and not argument. You blast away with your words but stil have not found your mark. Why? You have no target in the argument do you becaue you know it be true that the media in the United States is complict in the deaths of American solders just as if they fired the shots themselves with the thousands and thousands of Abu Grahb stories and coverage night after night after night, week after week, month after month which in turn INCREASED THE FKN LEVEL OF VIOLENCE IN IRAQ BECAUSE THE MEDIA WAS PUSHING AN ISSUE IN ELECTION YEAR AND TREATED IT LIKE IT WAS THE FKN HOLOCAUST YOU STUPID (INSERT EXPLETIVE HERE).
Ray
Hey where did everyone go? Gone out to fact check yourself? That would be a good thing to do.
Narvy
C’mon Ray, that’s what you said. What’s the argument here that I’m not attacking?
ppGaz
The war in Iraq was and is a complete waste of resources, advancing no position on any “war on anything”, making us no more, and possibly less, safe, and accomplishing generally nothing. This outcome was quite predictable; I predicted it pretty precisely. Which is not about me, it’s about the rather obvious predictability of the scenario. Like I said, probably in another thread today, going into it required blind faith in what can best be described as a “grand experiment.” Blind, because there is no historical or other basis for believing in any particular outcome of the experiment. The extant situation proves that out, since we are now in a situation in which we have zero control over the eventual outcome. Exactly the situation the British had with their adventure in the region almost a century ago. Big, untested ideas and schemes, no clue, eventual slinking away.
Narvy
“… just be careful …” Does this mean if I hold the same opinion about an issue as someone or some organization with an “anti-American” agenda I should not express it? I guess I was absent the day they taught that in Civics class.
For future reference, the surest way to get me to put up an angry post is to accuse me or those whose political opinions I agree with anti-American.
Ray
Narvy
You can read my quote above Mr Split peronality Narvy and ppSpaz.
And I stand by my anti-American statement, there were some anti-war protestors there, but the majority of this circus is organized by known questionable people and you know it.
I like how you dont even attempt to counter any of media points, so I’ll put those in the win column for the good guys.
You know what you guys are so frackin good at talking why don’t you take a road show over to Iraq or the tribal areas in Pakistan and try and “talk” some sense into these people or apologize and make things all better. That’s all you people do is talk.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
The sad thing is that you actually believe this.
So Saddam gone, literally tens of thousands of dead terrorists has accomplished nothing?
A possible democratic regime in Iraq, nothing?
Don’t see anyone slinking away from Iraq. Sorry. You’re just plain wrong, but I think you’re probably used to that.
Ray
Scurvy
Oh dear, talk talk talk. Civics class. Yes Herr Chruchhill you have free speech. Go on and exercise your rigth to free speech. Just be careful when and if a war is really declared on the correct enemey in the GWoT you might not enjoy it so much. Just sayin.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
The protestors are not interested in stopping the war. They are interested in one thing — promoting worldwide socialism. (Yep, PPgaz, it’s all about Socialism). Look where the funding from this comes from, not from good-faith US groups against the war, but Marxist groups.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
So when will Cindy Sheehan protest against the insurgents to stop fighting?
ppGaz
Apparently it has made you all jiggy with it. But otherwise, no, it has accomplished basically nothing. Iraq will fail as a state, and terrorism will continue on its course mostly unimpeded, as is the case today as we speak.
Saddam was no threat to the US. He was simply a thief stealing his country’s oil money, exactly like the Saudis do, the Kuwaitis do, and the Shah of Iran, who dined regularly in the White House East Room, did.
ppGaz
Well, this is a blogsite.
If you want to plant yourself out at the shooting range, I’ll be glad to use you as a target. I’m a dead shot.
Oh, I meant the paintball range, of course.
I’m your worst nightmare: A liberal who can shoot very straight.
Ray
ppGaz
Oh dear you are lost blind soul. It’s called freedom of movement and support.
Draw a picture in your teansey head from Syria to Afghanistan.
You got that right? Now cross off two. Got that? Good. Now what’s left? It’s just that simple. Sheesh your thick on a scale that mankind has not seen before. Are you a DU regular also? I mean either of you?
Ray
ppGaz
Ha. You loose. Why? Because you squeezed first. Come on now. It’s not about me against you or vica versa. It’s about the enemey overseas and the few here in the media who are not helping us at all.
And just so you can sleep better. 300M open sights. BRAS. Smooch and kisses.
ppGaz
WTF are you talking about? I wasn’t at any “protest” today. I have no idea who organized it. Nobody there speaks for me, nor I do I speak for anyone there. My total information stream about it was a 4-second video clip on CNN Headline News about 3 hours ago, with the sound turned off.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Of course not. That’s why the US declared regime change for him back in 98 and UN Resolution 1441, too.
Oh, by the way, you made a typo:
Saddam
wasIS no threat to the US.Ray
ppGaz
Oh there you go. Deflect. Weave. “It’s complicated”. See above post sunshine. I never said you were at the anit-American/anti-war protest today. Good gosh you are thick and starting to sound delusional. Take a couple of deep breaths for a thought.
Oh yeah and I’ll still give you some time to earn back a couple of points here and there on the media issue. Since you have ignored most of it. So I guess you agree there? Since you only saw a 4 second clip on CNN. Since they dont’ give you the full support you need.
ppGaz
I didn’t say you did. But you talk glibly about it as if whatever it was about somehow paints anyone who disagrees with you about the war, or protests the war, or speaks out against the war.
I don’t care if Satan himself was at the rally, and you are Jesus H Christ himself. The war was a bad idea in 2003, and it’s a worse idea today. For the reasons I’ve already stated.
ppGaz
Yeah, uh, I don’t know if you caught this during your education, but the fact that the “US declared” something does not make it true.
Saddam was not a threat to the US in 1991, or 2001. Any more than he was in the 1980’s when we used him as a buffer against Iran.
Ray
ppGaz
Ok. Your still wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. Ok I’ve booked those media issue points in my book now. You can’t have them back now.
Now if you won’t agree or acknowledge those media points I’ve made than how can all of your other points be maintained? It doesn’t make sense does it? I’ll continue along this line now. Where do you get your information from? How reliable is it than if you can’t agree on the above media point. What role does the media play in all of this for or against the war? How should a media entity be punished if they attempt to over throw the government with fake but accurate sources? Where is Lucy Ramirez?
I could go on and on but you should see my point. Your perception of “facts” or “truth” is different from mine. At what point do you take a look on the other side of the fence and see what is going on? And I don’t mean on the side of the fence that say’s the airplanes were empty on 9/11 or that we blew hole in levees to drown black part of town.
I’m not debating your strong feeling of not the right war at the right place by the right candidate. That’s a given already but your lack of acknowledging any of my points about the media is depressing.
ppGaz
Can you state your main point on that subject in one, succinct sentence? Then I’ll take a shot at it.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Yeah, good point. Saddam invading Kuwait would have been a real boon for America.
ppGaz
We wouldn’t have given a shit about Kuwait and its repressive oligarchy except for one little thing, which I am sure I don’t have to point out to you. And the land now represented as Kuwait on maps was involved in disputes going back quite a long way. There was nothing particularly interesting about it, except for that one little thing.
Ray
ppGaz
A ok. Good cop out. Go back an reread and get a VWRC translator. Again, attacking the peron and not the points.
The point was: the major media collusion with the release of this report and the DC anti-Ameikan/anti-war protests today.
Second point was the use of the magical 60% opposed to the war that the major media has spewed the past month or so when the poll actually said “60% didn’t like the way the ware was going”.
Third point: the level of which the media in the US(since it was the NY TIMES who basicaly blackmailed the DOD)had Abu Grahb blasted on the airwaves, printed press, web like it was the holocaust during the ACTIVE SHOOTING part of the war and because of that how many more US and coalition Iraqi deaths had this caused?
I know that one is difficult but it’s the way some of think about it.
ppGaz
Okay, I asked for one statement, you came back with three. Fine.
First point: There is no such thing as “media collusion.” As John Cole says, more or less, don’t ascribe to collusion that which can be explained by dumb luck, or dumb bad luck, or “shit happens.” Or if you prefer a more formal version, “Correlation is not causation.” Your point is denied.
Second point: Don’t be silly. A variety of mainstream (widely referenced, known method) polls have tracked support for the war pretty much in the same direction over the last year: Down. Your point is denied.
Third point: Don’t be silly. Abu Ghraib is not a creation of the NYT or any media outlet. Nobody held it to be “the holocaust” or anything like it. If the people in charge didn’t want this embarassment, they should have prevented it from happening. Too late to blame the world for finding out about it now. Your point is denied.
You applied for: Three points.
You received: No points.
You may appeal the decision my forward to me, under separate cover, your credit card numbers and expiration dates. I will see that your request receives all due consideration.
Narvy
OK, you no longer exist. I do not respond to people who don’t exist.
ppGaz, he’s all yours. (I assume Ray is male, because no woman could possibly be that stupid.)
Narvy
Saddam invading Kuwait would have given him all the oil money going to Kuwait. Which, come to think of it, was why he invaded Kuwait instead of the United States.
ppGaz
narv —
Nice chivalrous gesture, there. Point to you.
I have denied Ray’s application, but left the door open to an appeal if he sends me his credit card numbers and expiration dates. I will take it from here.
I think he’s drunk.
Narvy
ppGaz —
Do you we’ve been trolled?
ppGaz
Beautiful. But remember, Bush One said he was “the reincarnation of Hitler.”
Chew on that for a while ;-)
Narvy
Tha should have been “Do you think we’ve been trolled?”
Fighting the Global War on Idiocy has that effect on me.
ppGaz
Or spoofed, possibly.
We must ascertain the whereabouts of DougJ.
DougJ
Ray, there’s no point in arguing with these libruls. They would rather the guards chatted with the prisoners over tea like Joe Wilson did with the Nigerians. They can’t admit that these were bad guys and you’ve got to play rough with them. Maybe if Clinton had beefed up our interrogation policies, 9/11 never would have happened in the first place.
The bottom line is that we will prevail in Iraq. We will stay the course. We will ignore the criticisms of those who would give aid and comfort to the enemy. The insurgency is in its last throes and freedom is on the march. I just wish the media would start reporting all of the *good* news coming out of Iraq. But so many in the librul MSM hate America and hate Bush too much for that. Things are going much better than anyone would have anticipated. If we had been this pessimistic in WW II, Hitler would have won. The insurgency is like a hurricane, it can only last for a limited period of times. Then the clean up begins. And we will spend whatever it takes.
ppGaz
Speak of the Devil.
Narvy
George the First is a good upscale preppy Protestant. He does not believe in reincarnation. That remark must have been slipped past him by Karl Rove.
Narvy
Damn DougJ and his razor-keen insight!
ppGaz
He probably meant “What in tarnation is littler” and it just came out wrong.
Narvy
Dudes, I gotta go. I can hardly wait to see what new delights John will have for us tomorrow.
Carry on.
DougJ
You’re right, Ray is a troll. I can tell by the “your” for “you’re”. I think he’s a pretty good troll. I hope he comes back under a different name.
I can’t really troll here anymore because I slip into the same voice and ppgaz recognizes me.
ppGaz
Well, if you’d email me, we could coordinate your attacks. I’ll play along and we can open up a major can of AwShit on some hapless righties.
Ray
Dougj
Never left I was just admiring Scurvy and ppDiddy post above:
Now look at all 3 of these.
1 They both are completly blind to what the media gives them. Or the DU for that matter.
2 He won’t admit the poll number was mis-used and the 60% opposed is crap and he knows it.
3 The NYT pushed the “Freedom of Information” act since they already had the photos and told the DOD they would release them anyway and how many lives American and Iraqi and coalation with the drum beat of “Holocaust month after month did their darling NTY cause? 1? 5? 50? 500? I’d really like to know Scurvy and ppDiddy?
Just because you come acorss as a good car salesman doesn’t make your points right because there not. Just swallow the pill it will be ok.
Ray
Hey ppGAz you remember this one:
http://www.projectnothing.com/2005/06/28/bushs-big-speech
ppGaz
Hey yourself.
tBone
Ray, meet Comma. Comma, Ray. I hope you two will get to know each other a little better.
jobiuspublius
Perfect top post, John Cole. I agree 100%.
Ray
tBone
I,got,your,comma,right, here. “,”
tBone
Mission accomplished, then.
srv
Ray, you need to get laid man.
Ray
Back to the original post that John so graciously posted for us.
I’m not so infuriated that some troops in a highly stressful position of having to choose between life and death on the battle field daily. And who might have also so see his buddy or friend or kids loose their life or limbs in war. I’m not so infuriated that the “man” was there and should have not less this happen. I’m not so infuriated that resorted to use a baseball bat on some of the scum they had but there may have been innocents with them as well. I’m not so infuriated that the Cpt who is now in the “Special Forces” Q course or some other training waits until now 2005 to bring this out. I’m not so infuriated that his happened to the 82nd Airborne Div, because hey some of us know and don’t know the truth and we may neve will.
What I am so fkn infuriated about is the timing of this report with the DC anti-war/amerikkkan march on DC this weekend. Above all Human Rights Watch could do more to focus on Iran than to chase ghosts. If this whole war, I mean everyting Iraq/09/11 GWoT was based on Human Rights than who would be the the top ten countries or number one for that matter?
Above all else America has done more freedom, women, equal rights, engineering, philanthropy, science, the list goes on and on. How are we that bad? We let the actions of few dominate the discourse? At least we can talk about these issues, freely and joke and pick at eachother. The enemy in this war will have none of that. They kill their own for speaking out or trying to “moderate” the issues.
This above all infuriated me to no end.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
So what? Like oil is some insignificant little trifle. Hello. Oil. It damn near runs the world.
And again, more than just oil was at stake. And you know that.
But what is with leftists and this damn obsession with profits/purity? So the fact that oil was part of Gulf War I negates all the good that we did? That’s pretty childish.
Just because there’s a material component involved or someone may get wealthier does not negate all the good that was accomplished by Gulf War I. Or any other war for that matter.
I’ve asked this question before, and I do it again: do you begrudge the fact that your doctor gets wealthier by making you healthier? If you don’t, why not?
It’s always about motives for the Left, never about Results. Bush is bad because his motives are evil, blah, blah….
ppGaz
Really? What would that be?
Freedom and democracy? Kuwait is an oligarchy which exists mainly to put the oil wealth of the country into a few favored pockets.
Iraq’s claim on the land? The dispute over the territory is probably older than the United States. Nobody here gives a damn about that dispute now, nor did then.
Bush’s insane assertion that Hussein was Hitler?
ppGaz
WTF?
Narvy
No, I don’t. Would you explain?
DougJ
Is it me or do all the Bushies here sound like trolls? No wonder you guys had so much trouble pegging the old me as a troll.
ppGaz
Could we go to the tape on that? I thought you were made rather quickly.
But to your point, yes they all sound like trolls.
DougJ
What is the actual definition of a troll? Does it mean that the person means the opposite of what he or she is saying? I’m still not clear on that.
Narvy
DougJ —
This will tell you more than you want to know. The short version is
but there’s more, much more.
Narvy
I like this. “The old me” is so New Age, which is now so Old Hat. Welcome to the California Ethos.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
So let me get this straight. There’s nothing wrong with Saddam invading Kuwait to do nothing more than steal their oil, but America should be condemned for liberating both Iraq and Afghanistan from their murderous regimes, both of which supported terrorism? Wow!
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
That’s exactly what you do all the time. Whatever good results from America’s actions you try and negate that good by pointing out that our intentions weren’t 100% pure, so therefore, no really good resulted.
“Sure, we removed a murderous dictator, but only because he had oil.” Translation: “Sure, my doctor took out my diseased lung and saved my life, but only because I paid him.”
Kimmitt
Ah, but the quality of care you receive will have a lot to do with whether the doctor did it just because there was money to be gained or whether the doctor has a personal interest in your health after the surgery.
After all, if the doctor does the surgery, then simply neglects the post-op care, you can die, and the doc will collect his money, no?
donald
Doug J,
The muslim world consists of crazed animals (I’m pounding that point home baby), who want to kill every single being that doesn’t think ilke themselves, the pussies who refuse to reign them in due to extreme cowardice, and the rest who are funding them from afar. Animals I tell you. Not one of the animal cocksuckers who have cut off anybody’s head has been brought to justice. And not that I give a shit what happens to one of those pieces of shit, I’m sure that people accused and tried of violating their “rights” will face justice. Really, we should be killing each and every one we capture. It would make things better. The theory being that each and every single crazed muslim animal that dies is a good thing.
tBone
That was a simpler, more innocent time. Now, instead of just posting lame pro-Bush talking points, our trolls spout crazy xenophobic bullshit.
Personally, I miss the old days.
ppGaz
So let me get this straight: You produce a post of mine that says there is “nothing wrong” with it, or else shove your posts to this thread … in the wastebasket. I didn’t say that. I said, in so many many words, it is not our business to the extent that we need to gin up a huge war over it, and set in motion a series of events that leads us to where we are now. It wasn’t worth it, and the whole idea of it was sold on false pretenses.
Hussein was not “Hitler.” He was a nasty-assed Iraqi thief who moved on an old territorial dispute that was never any of our business. He was a nasty-assed Iraqi thief who was “our” nasty-assed Iraqi thief only a short time before. He wasn’t frigging “Hitler” any more than Bush’s kid is Bushitler.
Pay attention for crissakes: It’s about manipulation. The Gulf War was ginned up using crass manipulation. Whether the oil was important or not, certainly arguable, probably tilting your way. BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE NOT OFFERED THE CHOICE to go and have a war for oil. They were told a bunch of BULLSHIT that had nothing to do with the real reason for the war.
If you don’t get anything I ever tell you, try to get this: That dishonest manipulation is NOT JUSTIFIED by the need for that oil. That the government of this country treats its citizens with enough respect to tell them the truth about why a war is being proposed — which is about as basic as it gets, man — is more important than oil, and more important than shitty Saddam Hussein.
You can disagree with that point if you like, but don’t morph it into something else to do so. Tackle it straight on, yes or no.
ppGaz
You’re the master at twisting words, my friend.
I am telling you that Ends Justify Means is not a valid, proper or in the long run, successful way to run a country.
That does not translate into insisting that anything be “100% pure”, a term I have never used in my life.
“The world is better off without Saddam” is an Ends Justifies Means argument. It is an argument that can only be pimped after the fact, because “The world would be better off without Saddam” would not have been sufficient to move the US to have this war. Therefore it is not honorable or proper to try to float the idea as an excuse for the war after the fact.
This country cannot survive under a reign of Ends Justify Means government. Period.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
You’re right. Last November the Am. People were given a choice between a Prez who is interested in defending this country by taking down a rogue dictator vs. a guy who just wasn’t sure about things.
So where’s all this oil you speak of that we went to war for? Last I heard the New Iraq govt. owned all the oil and they were trying to get production levels up to 100%.
So if the US went into Iraq for Oil, is Al-Q there now also for the oil?
ppGaz
You really aren’t very good at this. The election was not about whether the war was a good idea. It was about which of two people widely disliked by about half of the country, each, could win. You might be the only person on earth who didn’t get that.
WTF is the matter with you? Can’t you pay attention to anything?
I never said that the current war was for oil. I said that the Gulf War and the “liberation” of Kuwait (that is, turning it back over to a despotic oligarchy) was for oil. Which it was, as you fucking well know.
Ray
Ok, I’ve come to the conclusion that sense my post was both read and did not garnish even a respectable STFU from ppGA, Scurvy or Dimmi that all my points on that post were all taken and scored to me.
Since wasting so much time on discussing what a troll is, or not for that matter, really shows the depth of your blindness to all things that don’t have the word: Bush, anti-war, oil etc in them.
You are wrapped up in something you can not control and you feel helpless, and you are to an extent, that helplessnees you feel and have eats at you every day and you lash out(me) and attack those(me and others) who have the “courage” to talk about what needs to be talked about.
Thanks for that much courage to not attack my points, or me again, in that post but yet silently agree.
donald
I did not widely dislike George Bush. No matter his failings, I realized however that he was a good man, not a pretentious twit and so he got my vote on personal decency alone. He also had better ideas and policies, which is really a half loaf, seeing as how his domestic nanny state politics are a nightmare. I mean Really, do you think John Kerry has any real friends?
Mark
“So when will Cindy Sheehan protest against the insurgents to stop fighting?” – Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
I hear variations of this arguement a lot, so I’d like to take a crack at it. The purpose of protesting something is to try to stop it. As American citizens, this weekend’s protesters have a reasonable chance of changing American policy, either by electing like-minded candidates or by pressuring their elected representatives. If they had similar power over the leaders of the insurgents, I’m sure they would protest to try to get them to stop fighting as well. But it’s ridiculous to say that American citizens shouldn’t, first and foremost, be concerned with the behavior of their own government, which, in theory, represents their will. Protesting the insurgents would do about as much good as protesting against Hurrican Katrina. Most supporters of the war understand this, which is why they don’t protest against the insurgents either.