And another thing that sets me off- people who excuse terrorists:
In the more than two years since they began an armed struggle against the illegal U.S. occupation of their country, the Iraqi resistance has earned the respect of the world’s people.
Not only throughout Arab and Muslim lands, but at gatherings like the World Social Forum in India and Brazil, references to the Iraqi resistance were cheered. Spokespeople for the anti-globalization movement like Arundhati Roy as well as Marxists openly call for solidarity with the Iraqi resistance.
It is easy to understand why the Iraqi fighters have earned this solidarity. And it is time to extend the same solidarity from the anti-war movement here…
It is appropriate, too, that the U.S. anti-war movement, especially the serious opponents of imperialism, think of the Iraqi resistance as an important ally. Recent events, including the Camp Casey struggles and Hurricane Katrina, have shown that some anti-war forces have already moved toward this position.
A dynamic sector of the anti-war movement now consists of “gold star” parents. It is a remarkable gain in political consciousness that the mother of a fallen GI from Baltimore, in the midst of grieving over her loss, can speak publicly of her understanding of why the Iraqis would fight to drive out the occupier.
Then there was Hurricane Katrina. The Bush regime was caught. It had stolen funds from levee repair to pay for the war. It criminally neglected to rescue those caught in the disaster. Millions now see that the government in Washington neither represents nor cares for the poorest sections of the U.S. working class, which are predominately African American and other people of color. It is a racist regime that sends its troops to kill people, not to save them.
The blows the Iraqi resistance strikes against the occupation are not blows against the U.S. population. On the contrary, weakening the regime in Washington strengthens the movement here for equality, for workers’ rights and to end the war. The population here and the Iraqis there have the same enemy: the regime in Washington.
These people need to be beaten down, and anyone who stands with them, aides them, or refuses to repudiate them should be humiliated and publicly destroyed. They might as well just break out an “I heart Zarqawi” button.
Assholes
*** Update ***
No, I am not advocating violence or issuing a ‘fatwa.’ These people need to be beaten politically and kept as irrelevant as they currently are. I am not talking about beating people with sticks or physical violence, and you would think that some of you regular readers would know me a little better and give me the benefit of the doubt. Fourtunately, most of you do.
CaseyL
What did Iraq do, to deserve being invaded and occupied, its infrastructure destroyed, its wealth looted, and its people debased and tortured?
Iraq didn’t attack the US; didn’t bomb our harbor; didn’t even take an embassy hostage. So what crime against the US did it commit?
What would we do, if someone did that to us? Mount an armed resistance? Or would that be “terrorism,” too?
ppGaz
workers.org?
Couldn’t we find a massmurderes.org or childmolesters.org site to rile ourselves up this morning?
Somebody got out of bed on the wrong side.
I prescribe 3 mins of this to cheer you up:
Behind the scenes
Defense Guy
I guess the kool-aid is delicous, as I am sure you have heard the answer to why and yet continue to pretend you don’t know the answer. As for the rest, pure crap.
docG
Article author is John Catalinotto, member of the Marxist-Leninist Workers World Party. I’ll bet Fred Phelps can get a bigger crowd together than this irrelevant voice. Does get a vote for the stupidest thing I have read in the last 3 months, however.
demimondian
Yup. Gets the same vote from me.
The Leninist loonies are to the left as the Identity movement is to the right: nauseating, disgusting, and irrelevant. Tying them to the anti-war movement is a little like tying David Duke to the Republican party. (Yes, Duke did get the Senatorial nomination from the Republicans, but he was almost immediately deserted when his views became public.)
APF
It would be “loony” if there weren’t direct ties between these groups and the groups organizing anti-war protest movements (ANSWER, etc), ne?
Boronx
“They might as well just break out an “I heart Zarqawi” button.”
God, you really are a gullable moron.
jg
You shouldn’t lump those who are professional protest organizers (commies) with those who just attend protests because they’re pissed. Unless you’re trying to be dismissive in which case you’re an ass.
This war was pointless and I’m fully against Bush’s rationale for the war (all his rationales) but I don’t stand with the insurgents and I certainly don’t want them to do better.
Its too bad the rest of the world thats cheering the insurgency standing up to us doesn’t realize the only reason they even have a chance is because of our incompetent leadership, not our fighting ability.
JonBuck
I can’t even begin to comprehend why people like CaseyL and organizations like this cheer on and insurgency that has targeted Iraqi civilians on purpose and killed thousands. These suicide bombers have driven into crowds of children and blown themselves up. How can they possibly claim to have the moral high ground without condemining this?
I feel that the Iraq War was a mistake, and I don’t have much faith in Bush’s competence. But I stop far short of cheering on Islamist murderers targeting civilians.
APF
“You shouldn’t lump those who are professional protest organizers (commies) with those who just attend protests because they’re pissed. Unless you’re trying to be dismissive in which case you’re an ass.”
Did I do that? I thought I was taking about groups like the WWP and groups like ANSWER? Why did you just jump on me? Was that a preemptive strike? I hate those.
DougJ
In five years, he’ll be a neocon.
Pb
You heard it here first, folks.
American soldiers torturing Iraqis bad. However…
Right-wing bloggers calling for retribution against American protesters (and anyone who refuses to repudiate them) good. Seriously man, what the hell was that–it sounded like a damn fatwa. Somone call Pat Robertson so he can get in on the action…
I love it how John Cole tries to be ‘fair and balanced’ by spewing out two contradictory posts, one right after another…
John Cole
I don;t think the war is a mistake, but I do agree with the second half of the assessment (re: cheering murderers).
And I do find it kind of silly that those who claim to be anti-war have as their chief goal coalition withdrawal from Iraq. That wouldn’t stop any war. That would simply fuel the insurgency into a full-fledged civil war.
If they would just come out and admit they are isolationist, anti-Bush, and really don’t give a shit about the Iraqi people, I would have more respect for them. But a pull-out of troops is not ‘anti-war.’
John Cole
PB- Try harder. You might reach Tom Arnold stupid with a little effort.
There is nothing inconsistent with either post. In fact, I bet a little informal poll of the majority of people here would find torturing detainees and cheering the insurgency to be both bad.
And if anyone thinks I meant physically beaten down (the only thing I can think spurred your fatw remark), I didn’t. People who think like this guy need to be kept politically irrelevant.
DougJ
If by “they” you mean those who thoughtlessly propose a pull-out now, you’re right.
If by “they” you mean anyone who thinks the war was a mistake, then you’re a jack ass.
ppGaz
I’ll resist the temptation on that one ….
But you are right on the latter point. The problem is (does this seem like Deja Vu all over again?) that the people are more and more realizing that the war was a mistake, and are losing the will to put up with the committment necessary to prevent your latter scenario.
So, what to do? See, the thing is, even if the war was not mistake (an argument which I think relies on what I would call blind faith in a grand experiment), the way it was sold the country was a terrible mistake, because it looks so incompetant now. The way it was planned and carried out looks incompetant now. Hell, even Bill O’Reilly says so, for crissakes.
So how do the guys who sold the thing with smoke and mirrors, and carried it out in a hamhanded way that seems to maximized today’s problems, and squandered the trust that was placed in them ….. get the country to rally behind them now?
Sorry, John. This must seem like Groundhog Day to you. Well, you can take heart, it seems that way to a lot of us.
DougJ
To clarify, that’s what I mean when I say it was mistake. I know nothing about military planning, so I can’t say for certain that a well-planned war would have been a mistake, but a poorly planned war was certainly a mistake. I suported the war initially because I believed that the Pentagon had a good plan. Fool me once…
Doug
I’m against the insurgents, but mostly just because I’m a United States citizen and root for the home team. If I pulled back and put myself in their shoes — for example, if Iraqis had invaded and occupied the United States, I have to think I’d probably use any tactics at my disposal to get rid of any Iraqis ruling over Indiana. If conventional tactics didn’t stand a chance of forcing out the occupying Iraqis, I’d probably resort to less pleasant options.
srv
Well, if the other side would just come out and admit they are expansionist, pro-Bush, and really don’t give a shit about the Iraqi people, I would have more respect for them. But staying-the-course is not ‘anti-war.’
APF
“If conventional tactics didn’t stand a chance of forcing out the occupying Iraqis, I’d probably resort to less pleasant options.”
Conventional tactics—like… voting?
Are you ok with the fact that your sense of morality is solely dependent upon the presumed end results of your actions? Or are you trying to suggest that desperate times call for desperate measures? Do you feel the same sentiment can be applied by governments in times of war (for example)? Isn’t this an awful slippery slope that can be used—as you used it—to rationalize any and all behavior, just because one has the will to do it?
ppGaz
Bwunh? That’s called being a neocon.
EndsJustifyMeans is the wave of the future, apparently.
Can you say “The world is better off without Saddam?” That’s the EJM mantra of 2004-2005.
Doug
Correct me if I’m wrong, but “Americans leave” hasn’t been on a ballot yet.
I just don’t see myself suffering a paralysis of analysis if the Iraqi military marched into Indianapolis, tore down our flag, installed a government, and starting telling Hoosiers what to do. I’d do my best to try to force the bastards out and worry about the morality later.
Maybe that’s immoral, but that’s the way I’d react — even if I believed the Iraqi occupiers were behaving admirably, which I wouldn’t. Any rumor that they were torturing my fellow Hoosiers, and I’d become particularly implacable.
Kyle
“These people need to be beaten politically and kept as irrelevant as they currently are.”
I think “these people” kind of take care of that themselves.
And really, refraining from futile invasions is not “isolationist.”
Narvy
A point that seems to be consistently overlooked in the Is-Not-Is-Too argument over the rightness of going to war with Iraq is the administration’s inconsistency. If we went to war with Iraq because [we thought] they had WMD, why have we not gone to war with North Korea, which we KNOW has WMD? If we wnt to war with Iraq to free the oppressed Iraqi people, why have we not gone to war with North Korea, which not only jails its citizens without apparent cause but has systematically starved them?
Two big differences between Iraq and North Korea that I can see are: Iraq has oil, NK doesn’t; Iraq couldn’t do a whole lot of damage to its neighbors if it unleashed its imaginary weapons, NK can start a regional nuclear war. If the administration says it’s our duty to free the oppressed, they’re inconsistent. One could get the impression that the administration is less concerned about freedom on the march than it is about really practical stuff like oil and chooses to free from oppression countries that can’t put up a fight outside their borders, in which case they’re hypocritical.
I’d like to see an argument that they are neither inconsistent nor hypocritical. Shouting “unpatriotic unAmerican looney lefty moonbat Bush basher” at me is NOT such an argument.
Narvy
BTW, John, quoting from Worker’s World is undeserving of comment (even though I just made one). Unless, of course, you’re stuck in the fifties.
Narvy
Before the jump-on-errors-to-avoid-addressing-the-point brigade trashes my post about NK, “North Korea, which we KNOW has WMD” should have read “North Korea, which we KNOW has the capicity to develop WMD.
jobiuspublius
Iraq is a mess. I would be very carefull when choosing sides. Yes, it’s easy to side with the Iraqi people. But, exactly how? It seems to me that thanks to Worst-POTUS-Ever’s torture policies and failure to secure Iraq from harm, the Iraqi populace is growing tired of us.
My opinion is that the Iraq war is a mistake because we were lied into it, lied thru it, and it is mismanaged beyond belief, purposely or not. If it is possible to salvage it then great. I support that. But, I don’t see how this situation improves until at least ’06, technically. A lot can go wrong in that time. A lot of people can die in one year. Everyday that we are there under the “leadership” of Worst-POTUS-Ever is another day that we get blamed.
I advocate for immediate withdrawl becuase I have no confidance in Worst-POTUS-Ever or that he will be replaced soon enough.
I don’t see knowledgable people stepping up with a history of how these things have been salvaged and a plan to do so.
But, could some people say similar things about US forces in Iraq? Haven’t you heard of the allegations coming from soldiers of the 82nd Air Division? What about collateral damage and insecurity.
I saw a WWII documentary about British plans to deal with a German occupation. It involved sniping British citizens that so much as said hello to a German soldier.
IIRC, rail lines on the eastern sea board were powered by generators under Penn Station, NYC, during WWII. If those generators became damaged, US troop mobilization would have ground to a halt. The location of the generators were a secret. A guard was stationed at the entrance. Anybody who walked in would have been shot on site, no questions asked, anybody, even a 5 year old.
I suspect all government have similar plans. From what I’ve read, the “insurgents” are ~80% Iraqi and prior to our arrival, Iraq’s terrorists were strictly native.
How to salvage this mess?
Narvy
Then the democratically united free Iraqi people will launch a civil war among the traditional tribal and religious enemies, with neighboring states taking sides and joining in. Staying is untenable and leaving is untenable. It’s a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation, with real damnation — at least an inferno — resulting.
I dimly recall a Secretary of State saying “You broke it, you own it.” The ownership of a badly broken Middle East is Bush’s legacy.
ppGaz
There is no way to answer that question until …. and the question is eminently answerable when …. the following is answered:
What is more important to you? What kind of country Iraq turns out to be, or what kind of country the United States turns out to be?
Because once that question is answered, the other one answers itself.
DougJ
Forget it, there is *no way* that Marxist-Leninists will ever be beaten politcally in this country. They’re just too powerful, too well represented in the media.
Narvy
Thank you, Senator Joseph McCarthy. But you forgot their firm entrenchment in the highest levels of government. Now exactly where did you put that list…?
demimondian
You are, of course, right. You’ve got to play to lose, and the Marxists are not players in the politics of the United States.
Meanwhile, back on the ranch, I haven’t heard that Bush has eaten a baby in weeks. Has Rove convinced him to stop eating babies? What about the children?
David Rossie
Whoa, Doug is right. Any Iraqi surely has the right to attack his enemies. The mistake made by the communists is that they lump all resistance in Iraq together as one just cause. And that is absurd. I’m sure there are many decent Iraqis who have tried or thought about resisting our military and the Iraqi government without attacking civilians. But its obvious that the resistance movement was pre-empted by statists and terrorists, to a larger degree than even political pacifists like myself could have imagined.
You can’t be solidly “for the resistance” or “against the resistance” unless you are either some kind of violence-loving anarchist or order-loving authoritarian… or a guy rooting for the home-team, I suppose. Anyway, there are more than two sides here.
APF
“Bwunh? That’s called being a neocon.”
Mhh. That’s called being a lot of things, obviously.
So I am to understand you disagree with that sentiment? Why reply to my post with your unrelated tangent?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but “Americans leave” hasn’t been on a ballot yet.
But “what kind of government do you want,” and “who do you want to represent you” has. As you likely know, Americans on the whole don’t want troops there, and don’t want to colonize the country, so for an Iraqi the mere fact of creating a government and participating in the democratic system itself is a means to ending US presence (and a more moral one, from the perspective that believes terrorism is wrong).
“Maybe that’s immoral, but that’s the way I’d react”
I’m not trying to judge you over your hypothetical actions, but rather to flesh-out your perspective by asking pertinent follow-up questions.
APF
(sorry, I was replying to two different folks above; the difference showed-up better on the live preview than when submitted)
Narvy
I thought it waws more like “Do you want the kind of government we’ve come up with or not?” That’s a somewhat more limited range of options.
APF
Technically we’re both right. I feel you’re splitting hairs if that’s all you have to say.
Narvy
I think this is naive. The US presence is going to be there for quite a while longer. Your belief in the curative power of two democratic elections (the parliamentary one and the scheduled vote on the charter/constitution/whatever) is touching but it doesn’t take into account the need for a functional military/police presence while the undemocratic side keeps blowing people up.
Narvy
Read upthread, Dude. I’ve split many more hairs than this. Oh, and comparing an up-or-down vote on a single proposition with choosing from a menu of propositions is at least splitting a rope.
ppGaz
Just do the best you can, man.
I made a point. Whether you agree with it or not is up to you, and I could not care less.
Ray
Narvy and ppGaz
There you both go. Or is it one person with an issue? WMD’s were not the only point for the war and you know it. However, the administration “sold” that as the main point but I do remember seeing someting called a UN resolution or some kind of paperwork like that which highlighted many short comings of Mr. Saddam but than again you sound as if your on retainer or something so you may be biased in your defense of the issue.
Ray
jobiuspublius
By not letting you anywhere near it I’ll offer.
ppGaz
That’s right, if one disagrees with you, he must be “on retainer.” Jesus, you people are a bunch of tedious fuckstains. I’m not ON ANY FUCKING retainer, you jerk.
UN resolutions? Since when were the American people open to being persuaded into wars by the standing of UN resolutions? Since the advent of the GET US OUT OF THE UN bumper sticker?
The war was advanced on fictions. The bullshit EJM excuses today were not advanced then, because they would not have succeeded then. That’s called manipulation. That manipulation, and the subsequent loss of trust and confidence that goes with it, is why the population does not much support the enterprise today. People don’t like to have the government piss on their legs and tell them it’s raining.
Ray
ppGaz
Your are the most uncivl person I’ve seen in awile. It must come from wanting to go back to a 9/10 happy ice cream Sundae world. I’m sorry to tell you: We can’t go back and the bad men are here to stay until our brave and women finish the job at hand.
Along the way have made mistakes. Granted. However, that does not require the whole effort to be written off and all the “blood” both American and Iraqi/Afghani to be wasted. After all if were succesful will have save a lot, a very lot of Iranian blood also. Put that in you pipe and take a hit sunshine.
APF
“I made a point. Whether you agree with it or not is up to you, and I could not care less.”
Non sequitur.
APF
“Oh, and comparing an up-or-down vote on a single proposition with choosing from a menu of propositions is at least splitting a rope.”
Oh, is that what I did? (and “splitting a rope?” ugh) or is that a comparison you are putting into my mouth? I’m asking reasonable questions–while making general statements, true. You are saying nothing, but are taking the opportunity to attack me nonetheless, and for absolutely no valid reason. Relax. Volume does not make right.
APF
“I think this is naive. The US presence is going to be there for quite a while longer. Your belief in the curative power of two democratic elections (the parliamentary one and the scheduled vote on the charter/constitution/whatever) is touching but it doesn’t take into account the need for a functional military/police presence while the undemocratic side keeps blowing people up.”
Sorry, I didn’t see this post. Actually, all I am doing is suggesting that maybe there is a non-terrorist method leading to the US getting out of the country. Your points above are both putting words into my mouth and not related to what I’m saying…
Narvy
Ray —
Do you mean this resolution
which didn’t pass (and as far as I can tell didn’t directly address military action). That may have been the one referred to here,
but I can’t be sure.
Or maybe this one
which was passed six weeks after the US made the war a fait accompli.
If you’re interested in UN resolutions, go here and knock yourself out.
For future reference, I recommend doing some research so you can give the appearance that you know what you’re talking about.
Narvy
APF —
Silly me. When you said
I thought that meant holding democratic elections was a means to ending US presence. Sorry I put words in your mouth and didn’t address your point.
Good Lord! Sometimes it’s really hard to have a substantive discussion around here.
DougJ
Ray, I wish these liberals would understand that we went to Iraq to bring freedom to the middle east. It’s that simple. The WMDs were never more than a side issue.
Freedo is on the march.
ppGaz
Try turning on the tv in the Day Room. Once you are released, you will run into people like me all the time.
Doug.
Narvy
Damn! I’ve been found out. ppGaz, I told you that multiple personality disorder was going to get you, uh, me, uh, us in trouble.
ppGaz
Thanks for blowing our cover, Narv. Once they find out that we are both just creations of DougJ, we are washed up here.
I’m ….. beside myself.
Ray
Scurvy
Wow. You are so web savvy and know to manipulate a post by adding hyperlinks. Gold stars for you.
However you used all links that I would not click on. Sorry sunshine, nice try.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect2.html
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237
And the resaon why we got stabbed in the back by France and some other countries was what? Oh yeah. That trival little UN Oil for Food Program money laundring thing.
The US Sentate and Congress passed resolutions which authorized the use of force to remove Saddam and if we want to push that point a little further, war was not declared for Afghanistan either. I’ll add in the wrongly named war “GWoT” and we have yet to name the enemey.
You give a good post but no argument. The President did not have to go to your precious UN but he did. First resolutino passed unamiously here: Oh and how convenient the official UN website is offline of emergency maintenance.
demimondian
Help?
I know that I speak English as a first language, so I don’t quite understand her, but I’d always been of the impression that five used the word “it” only to refer to inanimate objects. Even if Narvy is ppGaz, wouldn’t they be a he or a she?
Signed,
Confused
Ray
ppGaz and Scurvy.
Yes your both on the same page anyway.
Sorry sunsine not sure about your reference to a “day room” not even sure they call it that anymore,it may be called “common area” now. And besides they all have juiced apartments now but hey you got me, I can squeeze you off at 300M no problemo, on the “paintball” range.
Next time you post some damn links use some American links for a change to reall information. Otherwise piss off.
Ray
demimondian
Ya and since I don’t know you from a my roids. You can take your Eng Lit 101/102 and stuff it down your throat sunshine. Is/was there anything grammatically wrong with that?
Signed
Not amused.
PS This was a serious discussion and a frank analysis of a person with issues and we were only trying to help. Your attempt at comedy during this session is not appreciated and actually has set us back now in the recovery phase. So next time keep your yap shut.
ppGaz
Yes, reality is one page. Much simpler that way.
Not if I get you first.
Mission accomplished!
APF
I said, “As you likely know, Americans on the whole don’t want troops there, and don’t want to colonize the country, so for an Iraqi the mere fact of creating a government and participating in the democratic system itself is a means to ending US presence (and a more moral one, from the perspective that believes terrorism is wrong).” You said, “I thought that meant holding democratic elections was a means to ending US presence. Sorry I put words in your mouth and didn’t address your point.” But aren’t we saying two completely different things here? Didn’t you just demonstrate that you really are trying to put words into my mouth, and for absolutely no reason? Lashing-out just for the sake of it?
Apparently you’re right about not being able to have a discussion here…
DougJ
Ray, you’re good.
Ray
Here you ppDiddy just for you:
Guess you missed the Celebrations in Gaza and the WestBank huh sunshine. Oh and I’m not Jewish prick:
How aboout some more:
Yep these be your comments ppGaz. Your not open in N Virinia are you? Just sayin. Shall I continue?
slide aka Joe Albanese
First point: Not all insurgents are terrorists. There are two distinct groups fighting us in Iraq, one group targets civilians and can rightly be called terrorists, but the larger group fighting us do not. I know its nice and convenient for those that supported this blunder of a war to want to call the enemy terrorists. Funny, how a country that invaded another country, and one that had not attacked us, can call those that resist – terrorists. (Shock and awe of course was not terror but honorable warfare.)
To not understand that many in Iraq could be fighting us because of nationalism or because they don’t particularly like a foreign army pointing automatic rifles at them in their own country, or don’t trust we are not after their oil, or believe we just wish to set up a puppet government, is to exhibit a dangerous egocenrtism. Its their fucking country. They did not attack us. They did not have WMD. They were no threat to us. They did not invite us in to support their “democracy movement”. We have no legitimacy in being in their country. Many, many civilians in Iraq have been killed through OUR actions. Under such circumstances, those that take up arms to try and expel this foreign occupying army could reasonably be called ‘freedom-fighters’ as un-American as that must sound to many. They are fighting for their freedom from an unlawful occupation.
I always think one of our main faults in America is that we have a complete inability to put ourselves in the shoes of others. We see everything through our own narrow perspective. Everything is good and evil, black and white. Unfortunately the world is a lot more complicated.
Ray
DougJ
Thanks. Just doing my part. If only this was a full time job like these other characters.
TallDave
Every human being has a fundamental right to freedom and democracy.
We’re giving the Iraqis the chance to seize those rights from those that have oppressed them.
To not understand that many in Iraq could be fighting us because of nationalism
Ha! They’re fighting the elected gov’t Iraqi gov’t. They want to overthrow it and put themselves in charge. How is that “nationalism?”
TallDave
They are fighting for their freedom
Wrong. They’re fighting for the exact opposite of freedom.
Ray
slide aka Joe Albanese
Ya I could put myself right in the shoes of a terrorist sawing someones head off as they scream in agony. I can relate to that very much. And nice post about being apologetic for the “freedom fighters” in Iraq. Great ending to the post with the left catch phrase “complicated”. Great job Joe. 3 Gold Stars for you.
Ray
Hey ppGAz you remember this one:
http://www.projectnothing.com/2005/06/28/bushs-big-speech
demimondian
Oh, poor Ray. I’m sure you’ll find a way to move up from the 15 hour a week gig at 7-11 sometime soon. Remember that this is Horatio Alger’s America.
demimondian
TallDave:
Do you really believe that?
If a foreign nation invaded the United States and imposed elections, would you consider those elections valid? Particularly if the members of the “elected” parliament were never seen in public? Wouldn’t you instead consider the “government” to be a group of Vichy collaborators?
Ray
demimondian
What’s your problem? Take a walk or bow down before you talk to me. What part don’t you get?
Your attempt at humor of which you decided to run you mouth on all over: it, it’s, it is is mute lady. Get over it. If you don’t the coversation or one your pals getting slayed by facts than avert your eyes.
slide aka Joe Albanese
TallDave:
And apparently you think it is the US’s role to enforce that right by force? Guess the US military is going to be very very busy.
TallDave:
Giving which Iraqis? Seems like the Iraqis fighting against us are a lot more dedicated than those fighting on our side. And TallDave you REALLY don’t believe that is why we are in Iraq do you? You couldn’t possibly be that naive but I guess thats all you got left right? All of the other reasons for this war have evaporated long ago.
TallDave:
Please give me a break. 150,000 foreign troops in their country imposing our “values” on them at the point of a gun and you don’t think that will stir up nationalistic feelings?
ppGaz
Uh, yes they are. And what is “open in N Virnina?”
Lastly, are you drunk?
ppGaz
Every human being has a fundamental right to good healthcare, too. But a lot of ’em don’t get it in this country.
Ray
ppGaz
Still here? Got your “paintball” loaded? or unloaded?
What’s sad. You obviously have some level of education but no boots on the ground or real world experience that could be useful today and tomorrow. Do you speak Arabic? That would be a plus. See what I’m thinking is since you have such a good warp on here along with the smart ass Dimmi, you could be really useful in the wrongly name ware to do something constructive with your pitiful short life than to dedeciate hours upon hours on John Cole’s blog.
But hey, that’s me. Who the hell am I right? Fire away. “Paintballs” that is.
demimondian
Well, if it’s really important to you that I bow down, why, then, I will. There’s lots of wise and talented people to whom I can bow down.
And think of it: someday, maybe, you’ll grow up and qualify to bow down to one of them, too.
ppGaz
No. Pig Latin, though.
Are you unk-dray?
Ray
demimondian
Not if you don’t stick your nose in where “it” didn’t belong. Just sayin. Otherwise pathetic, and I do mean high school smart ass college freshman pathetic approach to try and avoid the issue that some of us “grown ups” were talking about would not have been interrupted. Besides we were “frackin” that dog pretty good. You can stand back and hold the tail if you want. Otherwise back on the porch.
Ray
ppGaz
Not hardly. Why do you ask? And yes been drikning some Coors Light but don’t play “drunk” game anymore. I’m a big boy now and I have responsibilities and such.
Well than you really should go learn “Arabic” you sound like you could do some good talking people to death. That’s a joke but I’m serious at the same time.
jobiuspublius
Well, DUH! OK, you go to Iraq and have fun sunshine. Go police their streets and explain to the Iraqi ladies why sharia law is so good for them. Go to the Turkmen of Tal Afar and explain to them why we’re backing the Kurds of Mosul while their town gets turned upside down. Oh, can you make a little stop in Turkey and explain all that to them too. Then come back a month later, rinse and repeat. It’s so much more exciting than the Blame Game. It’s the worlds biggest action ride, the Rummy Balloon. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
ppGaz
Yeah, you’re drunk.
Turn in, sleep it off, get some breakfast and coffee, and try it again tomorrow.
slide aka Joe Albanese
Ray:Ya
No Ray, but we should have put ourselves in the shoes of the average non-terrorist Muslim that may view our invading an oil rich Muslim country, inflicting devastating misery on its people, on the false WMD lies. Had we done that we might have understood how that would have effected them. That might make them a little angry. Might make them hate America. Just might make them say, hey, you know that Bin Laden guy was right.
There will always be very bad people in the world willing to manipulate others. There is not much we can do about that, but they need the support of many more people in order to be effective. We are assisting the Bin Ladens of the world by inflaming the huge Muslim world by not being able to “put ourselves in their shoes”. In doing so we give Bin Laden more soldiers to manipulate for his evil purposes and a huge propoganda victory. Or as Rummy asked in his “snowflake” memo, “Are we creating more terrorists than we are killing”. I think the answer to that is, YES. I want to WIN the war on terror. Iraq is hurting that effort.
Ray
Tag team. I love “it”. Why? More targets. It’s always better with more targets.
jobiuspublius
What the heck did you just step in? Get off the DU train sunshine.
ppGaz
No, I’m fine. I’m nut overly cussing and the better half went to bed already. So alls fair in war and blogs.
David Rossie
How can anyone seriously uphold the position that all insurgents in Iraq are terrorists? It’s incredibly non-debatable. And painting over every insurgent with such an awful brush is no better than liberals calling the president “bushitler.” Bash zarqawi as an individual, and his minions as a group… but leave people whom you do not understand alone.
jobiuspublius
No, you get off the DU sunshine. So, there. :P
ppGaz
Fair, maybe. But not tolerable. Unless you turn coherent in the next post, I must bid you adieu for the day.
Tomorrow, when your blood alcohol level is back within the limits of an ability to sustain life, we’ll try again.
Ray
slide aka Joe Albanese
I won’t reply to a post of yours because that’s two in a row that got fkn WMD in it. The “frackin” horse was ate, regurgitated(sp) a year ago. Do you not have anyting fresh in that damn bankrupt argument of all wars are bad and they never solve anything routine and the average Muslim crap.
Speaking there of: Where the “frackin” hell are all the average Muslims that dang FBI, CIA and who the hells know other agency’s that are begging for “frackin” translators. And than this way we could possibly “releate” better to the average Muslim on the ground in Iraq.
Otherwise were on the same sheet, it’s the wrongly name GWoT and war should be declared on “islamofacism” the world over.
The Pres was right when he said “Bring em on”. Damn right. Otherwise the stepping on dang egg shells course of dragging this out another 10,20 or 50 years is going to get a lot more peopel killed than we would all like.
Please read if you will, any of you: “The West’s Last Chance ” or “New Glory” the latter is much or in depth and rips the heck out of Rummy and the war plans but there is much more in there.
ppGaz
I’m placing you under arrest for blogging while under the influence.
You have the right … no, the duty…. to remain silent.
Until you sober up.
Later, gator.
Ray
Ok here you guys/gals. One of you forgot your trash today:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/toptechwriter/46235989/in/photostream/
Ray
ppGaz
Later, nothing personal. Just business.
slide aka Joe Albanese
Ray said;
as he replys to my post. lol
I would reply to your post if it made any sense. Read it two and half times until I got a brain spasm and still can’t make “frackkn” heads or tails of it. Your writing abilities are not exactly your strong suit are they?
Ray
slide aka Joe Albanese
Your lack of taking on the argument and shooting from the hip at the “framing” of the message is your own fault, not mine. No moral courage huh? That’s ok some of us have your spineless back.
Go read the post a third time and see if you have the courage to pick out any point and ask me for clarity. Just pick one. It’s not that hard. Really. It isn’t.